Do you believe that physician assisted suicide should be legal?

[moriah]

Poll question: Do you believe that physician assisted suicide should be legal?

My father has been diagnosed with HIV for 17 years.

He has done very well for a long time. He had considered suicide and attempted suicide multiple times. The last time if he had been left alone for a few more hours what he took would have done it -- he chose amytriptiline as an ingredient. He's glad now that he didn't succeed, and all times he truly wanted to.

I got to see him back in 2007 and I am very glad I did. He was still relatively healthy at that time, weighed in at about 150 at 5'8. I have a good picture of him when we were crossing the channel on the ferry of him looking out across the water. I'm glad I will remember him like that.

He called me yesterday. He weighed 118 last week... when he went into the doctor this week he weighed 114. That's a 17.3 BMI.

His doctors are pushing him very strongly to be admitted to the hospital. They said they believe he may have stomach or bowel cancer of some kind but they will not know unless he allows them to look, and they said his pancreas are shutting down. His platelets are very low. He obviously has severe wasting. (I personally think he is having internal bleeding due to his platelets being low, I think they had seen a fair amount of blood in his stool, so that may be where the cancer concern came in.) He is in a great deal of pain.

The "good death" that a doctor can give at this case is only this -- give the patient heavy doses of tranquilizers, pain medicine, etc, and wait for an infection, and allow the patient to decide whether they want antibiotics.

He strongly wishes not to die in a hospital. He would love to die on the beach listening to the tide, or some other way that does not involve him being hooked up to tubes. He has indicated he has access to a method I think will be reasonably successful, and I am okay with the fact he has decided he wants to choose how he dies, just as he has chosen how he lives. Seventeen years of knowing my father was going to die, and knowing he had these views, has given me a certainty that others may not have facing this possibility in their own lives.

I love my father. I may not like him sometimes, but I love him. I will miss him, but I do not wish him to suffer. And this may sound awful, but I've had the fact he was going to die early hanging over my head for many, many, many years now. Just as it will be a relief for him from agony and pain ... it will be a bittersweet relief for me, too. I will know he is not suffering. I know he loves me. I will grieve him, and let myself grieve him fully... but I know he is in pain.

I will be okay.... any vibes are appreciated, but I will be okay.

But the situation brings up a question... do you believe someone in his situation should have to sneak around to get what they think may do the trick, and pray and hope it works? He has had a drug problem for years so he has no compunctions about finding what he thinks will work however he has to find them, but for a person who does not wish to break the law the situation is quite different.

Or should a doctor be able to prescribe it and let the circumstances be at the patient's choosing?

[xchrom]

1. death with dignity, please. nt

[Deja Q]

2. Counter-question:

If a person wishes to die but has an intervention, recovers, and has a few weeks or years of great living... only for the livelihood to be ripped away asunder...

Would it not have been better to not intervene, unless the intervention included the painless pill or needle or whatever?

Our "society" treats mass murders and other true vermin with far more dignity than those who wish to kill themselves at a time when they WANT to die, rather than yet another cruel joke being played. And that is, by far, the least civilized aspect of our "civilization".

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. I prefer the way they do it in Oregon.

I believe this is called "Death with dignity."

When someone is terminally ill, they have the right to end their life with help from a doctor.

We treat our terminally ill pets better.

[Arugula Latte]

14. Yes -- the law has worked very well here. Washington State passed a similar law in November.

It gives me comfort to think I live in a state where this is an option if I or a loved one needs it.

[MissB]

17. And it isn't that simple of course.

There are various rules- you have to be within six months of dying (or something like that) and you have to make multiple visits to the doctor and I think you also need more than one dr to say that you're of sound mind. And you have to be able to administer the drugs to yourself.

But yeah, I like Oregon's law.

And I'm sorry about the op's dad. May his remaining days be full of peace and free of pain.

[babylonsister]

4. I do, and it should be up to the individual. Your dad sounds

like he has his mental faculties-I think he should be allowed to make that decision given how ill he is. And my condolences, moriah. I wish he could go to the beach, too. I watched my mom die a long, slow, painful death, and she didn't have any options. She did have hospice, and they were great, but after awhile it was really hard to administer the morphine. At some point, the inevitable will happen. I don't understand prolonging it. But I'm not religious. I'm sure there are other people who feel differently. :hug:

[moriah]

12. Thank you, Babylonsister....

I feel very grateful that he lives in another state. And he said flat-out that he didn't want me to see him like this.

... I'm about to go get drunk at a friend's house (with a sleeping bag and pillow)....

I did just end a five year relationship and had told myself that I would not get drunk over it -- my family has a lot of alcoholics and there is a reason I don't keep alcohol in my home even if I have never had a problem with it -- but I need to go out and have some fun with some people in a safe setting.

Gotta love timing, eh?

Take care of you, and I'll take care of me .... :)

[angstlessk]

5. I am with yes..with controls...hell I have a friend who is sucidal...do not want it between her and

her doc...she is not in a position to decide as far as I am concerned...with restrictions..she is not terminal or has any disease except depression and athsma

[KamaAina]

6. Ummm.... no.

And no, I am not a sock puppet for the religious right. Not in the least.

And neither is the author of the following, with whom I am personally acquainted; I can assure you that she is at least as progressive as I am.

http://dredf.org/assisted_suicide/assistedsuicide.html

The very small number of people who may benefit from legalizing assisted suicide will tend to be affluent, white, and in possession of good health insurance coverage. At the same time, large numbers of people, particularly among those less privileged in society, would be at significant risk of harm....

Perhaps the most significant problem is the deadly mix between assisted suicide and profit-driven managed health care. Again and again, health maintenance organizations (HMOs) and managed care bureaucracies have overruled physicians' treatment decisions. These actions have sometimes hastened patients' deaths. The cost of the lethal medication generally used for assisted suicide is about $35 to $50, far cheaper than the cost of treatment for most long-term medical conditions. The incentive to save money by denying treatment already poses a significant danger. This danger would be far greater if assisted suicide is legal....

The deadly impact of legalizing assisted suicide would fall hardest on socially and economically disadvantaged people who have less access to medical resources and who already find themselves discriminated against by the health care system. As Paul Longmore, Professor of History at San Francisco State University and a foremost disability advocate on this subject, has stated, "Poor people, people of color, elderly people, people with chronic or progressive conditions or disabilities, and anyone who is, in fact, terminally ill will find themselves at serious risk" (Longmore, 1999).

Fear, bias, and prejudice against disability play a significant role in assisted suicide. Who ends up using assisted suicide? Supporters advocate its legalization by arguing that it would relieve untreated pain and discomfort at the end of life. But all but one of the people in Oregon who were reported to have used that state's assisted suicide law during its first year wanted suicide not because of pain, but for fear of losing functional ability, autonomy, or control of bodily functions (Oregon Health Division, 1999). Oregon's subsequent reports have documented similar results. Furthermore, in the Netherlands, more than half the physicians surveyed say the main reason given by patients for seeking death is "loss of dignity" (Birchard, 1999).

As to your own situation, I would not personally have a problem with giving your dad as much pain meds as may be required and wheeling him on out to the beach. It's just better not to get the system involved, as outlined above.

[moriah]

11. Actually, I see that as physician assisted suicide as well.

... a doctor giving the patient enough drugs to do the deed, in a patient who they know may do it, is currently illegal right now the way it is in a lot of states, or can be considered malpractice.

Of course, that's probably because they worry about family coming after to sue them for it.

[Runcible Spoon]

20. That is certainly something to be concerned about.

Perhaps the answer is associating the practice with Hospices or some other non-profit organization independent of the patient's insurance or hospital, so that primary health providers can't game the system and "get rid" of "low-profit" patients.

[PetrusMonsFormicarum]

7. Death with Dignity in Oregon

Having voted here in Oregon for Death with Dignity, twice (and probably will again, as those completely opposed to it seem to have a magical ability to get initiatives to ballot), I consider it one of Oregon's most forward-thinking social policies, and a privilege that I am resistant to losing.

My sympathies, Moriah. Tell him you love him every chance you get.

[eShirl]

8. Yes, for some of the same reasons that I believe

that physician=assisted abortion should be legal.

[notesdev]

9. I just can't shake the feeling

that the voluntary nature of this practice will be industrialized, eventually to become obligatory.

Then again, we have too many baby boomers anyway.

[Warpy]

10. If they look for it and find it, your dad can opt for nothing but

palliative treatment, and that means hospice and that means support to get his pain under control. A scope will turn up anything in his GI system. If they can fix it with the scope, great. If they can't, then the next step is up to him. Let him know he's the boss.

I am greatly in favor of assisted suicide, but questions need to be asked before it's supplied, questions about pain, depression and possible motives besides love.

Once depression and pain are both treated and the doc knows the patient isn't being guilted into a premature death, then assisted suicide should always be an option.

[bigwillq]

13. Yes (nt)

[Avalux]

15. After living with HIV for 17 years...

your father should be able to decide how he dies. Do you know if the HIV has progressed? He may not have cancer, it might just be wasting from the infection. Regardless though; if your father decides to not be hospitalized and chooses an alternative, that is up to him. Hospice provides pallative care and this is probably the best option under the circumstances. Unfortunately, our society has not progressed enough to allow physician-assisted, painless passing for the terminally ill.

I am sorry to hear about your father. Healing vibes and peace to both of you. :hug:

[mentalsolstice]

16. As a disabled person from birth

For me I would support it with serious regulations. It would have to involve multiple medical opinions as to the terminality of the illness and preferably a mentally competent patient. Otherwise, you're looking at a slippery slope.

Personally, I don't think I'd want the PAS, but I'd opt for no heroic treatment with meds to make me "very" comfortable while my loved ones gather around me.

I think this country has a long way to go for optimal palliative care. And I know many in the field of palliative care who fight the good fight every day. The science is there, but the Dr.s, gov't, insurance and social opinions aren't there yet.

My thoughts are with you and your dad...may he pass peacefully in a dignified way of his choice.

edited for typos

[Stinky The Clown]

18. I think if on wishes to end one's life, one should be free to do so.

And if one is free to choose to end one's life, one should be free to enlist the aid of a medical professional.

If one is free to enlist the aid of a medical professional, then there shold be no penalty to the medical professional.

[TexasObserver]

19. A person owns their own life, if nothing else.

I've always favored assisted suicide.

[shadowknows69]

21. I think it will actually become a cultural necessity eventually

Homeless or suffering because of no health care or the suicide booth? Buy assisted suicide stocks now!

[tonysam]

22. Absolutely Not. People Already Have the "Right" to Commit Suicide.

Doctors are in the business of saving lives, not killing people. It is UNETHICAL for them to kill people. Period.

I know that's not a popular point of view, but most people haven't thought through this issue at all.

What is insidious about "right to die" is the fact this "right" winds up being forced on people who don't have a choice: the elderly, the sick, the disabled.

Screw "right-to-die." It's nothing more than "right-to-kill."

And no, I am not an antiabortion nutjob fundie Republican. :)

[roody]

23. What about veterinarians?

[exboyfil]

24. My father wanted the pain to end when he was dying from

cancer, and he should have had the choice. He died in his living room with my mom and me with him. He was in incredible pain before he died, and the pain management drugs authorized for him were not sufficient for hospice home care (a whole other problem).

The hospice people were wonderful. My mom experienced the brunt of the illness since I worked 16 hours drive from my dad. My greatest regret was not getting to him before he lost the ability to communicate.

I plan to pull the pin long before I get to that point or to the point of my grandmother (unable to go to the restroom by herself and requiring two people or special equipment to manage it).

You are right about the potential for coercive use of "right to die" though. I do see it as a danger. I also question whether our society will be able to handle the flood of care required by our aging population. Most of us are destined for nursing home or individual full time care, and I wonder how we are going to deal with it.

[TexasObserver]

30. Doctors are not in the business of saving lives, but of serving their patients' needs.

Your view is, frankly, naive. Doctors help people die all the time, but they have to pretend they're not.

[Vickers]

25. I vote "Yes" with absolutely no restrictions, legal or medical.

If someone feels they need to die, let it be as easy and economical and hassle-free as possible.

[slay]

26. Same here

Once they FORCE you to stay alive - yikes. We are either free, or we are not. It sucks that people who need assistance to die can not legally get it. And it may be illegal for me to kill myself - it actually is illegal - but really, they can't stop me. Kinda morbid, but damn, people are willing to give up just about any right they have - it's freaky. YES I reserve the right to kill myself if I want to government bastards. Oh - sorry for the rant - what you said was right on! :hi:

[Vickers]

27. Thanks, Slay.

Cool name, considering the thread topic and all!

:P

OK, how is THIS for weird...I was listening to the album "Coltrane For Lovers" while typing my reply (specifically, "You Don't Know Why").

Saw your avatar and was like, WHOA!

[slay]

28. ha woah freaky

wish i could say i was eating candy valentine hearts during this reply - but even coincidences have a limit i suppose.. yeah good call on my DU nick of slay.. is short for slayme (even better right?) from my buffy the vampire slayer chat room days. still - freaky bout the coltrane huh! here's a cool local radio station that plays alot of jazz and some blues you can stream so i dunno what i was listenin to since they don't run info for some reason also you'll have to use wmp to play it - just choose file -> open url. oh yeah here's the link - nice chattin with ya~!

http://live.wshafm.org/WSHA

[rampart]

29. who's hmo would approve?

and how about the uninsured?

i did not answer the poll because i believe this is my decision. no doctor should be forced to participate, nor should i require counseling or therapy before making an adult decision to allow my friends and relatives to go on with their lives.

drugs are available (illegally) and other means are possible.

[tekisui]

31. I think it should be 100% legal, even for those without terminal illnesses.

If someone wants to end their lives, who are we to say no. They should have access to a suicide clinic, where they are treated. They should be offered mental and physical help, and if after a waiting period, still wanted to end their lives, they should be handed the pills, and given a comfortable room to pass in.

[LWolf]

32. YES, it should be legal.

And is, in my state.

[KittyWampus]

33. A tenant whose cancer returned shot her brains out on the beach. My father had to identify her.

So HELL YES.

Under the right circumstances.

[bunnies]

34. Yes.

We dont force animals to suffer... nor should anyone force a human. Best vibes for you and your Dad in this heart wrenching situation. (((( :hug: ))))