Gunmen in mass killings had permits

[groundloop]

Source: MSNBC

Despite recent massacres, regulations aren’t getting any stricter

They had more in common than unleashing carnage — nearly every gunman in this monthlong series of mass killings was legally entitled to fire his weapons.

So what does that say about the state of gun control laws in this country? One thing appears certain: the regulations aren't getting stricter. Many recent efforts to change weapons laws have been about easing them.

Despite eight rampages that have claimed 57 lives since March 10, "it hasn't sparked any national goal to deal with this epidemic. In fact, it's going the other way," said Scott Vogel of the Freedom States Alliance, a gun control activist group.

Even President Barack Obama has felt that sway. Last month, 65 House Democrats said they would block any attempt to resurrect an expired federal ban against assault weapons.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30094954/

---

Damned NRA sure has all their followers riled up. It's kind of sickening how, after murders like this, the NRA is more worried about protecting the rights of gun owners from 'knee jerk reactions' rather than trying to help find a solution to the problem. (Kind of sounds like the Greedy Obstructionist Party.)

[derby378]

1. In the case of the PA shooter...

He was dishonorably discharged from the military. I understand that PA may be the only state in the Union where someone who is dishonorably discharged can legally own firearms, even though convicted felons cannot.

I would like to see this changed, and pronto.

[Johnyawl]

18. Are you sure he was dishonorably discharged?

A DD almost always involves criminal charges and jail time. To be thrown out of USMC bootcamp with no criminal charges meant they released him as "unfit", i.e., physically, mentally, or psycologically, and that tends to be a general discharge.

I ask, cause things change over time, and I was a Marine a LOOOOOOONG time ago. But that was how it used to work.

[benEzra]

29. I believe he assaulted his drill sergeant.

I don't know if that resulted in a DD or not.

[RamboLiberal]

31. He threw a food tray at a DI

He probably got some kind of "less than honorable" not a full DD.

[michreject]

43. I'm thinking Bad Conduct

Which doesn't necessarily include a ban on gun ownership

[Statistical]

46. Other than honorable or general depending on the situation

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/arbasicpol/blels.htm

Dishonorable Discharges are almost never given in basic training.
The view is that these are teenager citizens not soldiers yet.
The military is not for everyone so if they are discharged usually they are given a General Discharge w/ reason being "failure to adapt" to military life.
Bad cases will get an "Other than honorable"

Neither are considered felonies. Neither would prevent a successful NICS check.

[RamboLiberal]

30. According to gun store owner who sold the firearms

No you cannot get a gun in PA with a dishonorable discharge. Marines are refusing to release what kind of discharge he got to the news media so far. A lot of ex-Marines are saying that since he was in boot camp and not considered a full Marine yet he probably got some form of "less-than honorable" discharge.

[Statistical]

48. OTH "Other than honorable"

Almost never is a recruit given a dishonorable discharge in initial training (regardless of service).

Some people (not this guy but some people) are good citizens but can't handle the military so they are given either a General or OTH.

Only a Dishonorable or OTH w/ more than 1 year confinement will be classified as a felony in NICS system.

[Junkdrawer]

2. If the federal ban against assault weapons hadn't expired, three cops would be alive...

today.

Handing out AK-47s like candy is just plain nuts.

[hack89]

5. You are wrong

millions of legal "assault rifles" were sold during the ban. The law banned cosmetic features like flash suppressors, bayonet lugs, etc. The arms manufacturers made simple changes to remove those banned features and make their weapons legal.

In March 2004, Kristen Rand, the legislative director of the Violence Policy Center, criticized the soon-to-expire ban by stating "The 1994 law in theory banned AK-47s, MAC-10s, UZIs, AR-15s and other assault weapons. Yet the gun industry easily found ways around the law and most of these weapons are now sold in post-ban models virtually identical to the guns Congress sought to ban in 1994."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

[Pavulon]

6. Back that up. You have posted bullshit across 3 threads.

the federal awb covered specific items. folding stocks, bayonet lugs, cosmetic shit. It did NOT actually ban weapons, it banned cosmetic items. So this weapon was most probably legal under that shit law that elected republicans.

So post a fucking link with the manufacturer of the weapon and its type or sit the fuck down with your bullshit.

I assume you have a job or skill. That skill has a technical language, say material science, if you know you skill you immediately spot someone talking out of their ass.

This is a margin call.

[Junkdrawer]

8. OK, so we need a more strict law. I'm down with that. n/t

[Pavulon]

10. Outline it. Got a star, please search. I have a comprehensive idea

covering social support, drug law, and community centered support. The majority of people killed here are suicides and victims of drug driven crimes in poverty stricken places. This will work. Making murder more illegal does nothing.

I can see a golf course from my house, that means I die of a heart attack or cancer. Maybe a car wreck. If I saw a housing project that changes things.

Laws are great, but new tighter restrictions on guns will not fix this. Comprehensive social reform will.

That helps us all AND stops this shit. Nations like finland, switzerland, sweden, israel, and canada all have minimal gun crime with similar or greater access to weapons.

I support new law, but not gun directed. that is a bygone era. time to actually make progress here.

[Junkdrawer]

12. I'm all for more progressive social policies. I also want fucking AK-47s off the streets....

and if that means banning ALL semi-automatic rifles, because gun manufacturers and gun dealers won't get with the spirit of the law, then so be it.

[Sgent]

14. There are no fucking AK-47's on the street

AK-47's are fully automatic. They essentially do not exist in this country.

The semi-auto version (which is not an AK) is no more deadly than a standard hunting rifle.

Ban those, and you elect Republicans.

[Junkdrawer]

16. What a load of crap. n/t

[MercutioATC]

21. Sgent is correct...

...and any AK-47s that are on the street are already illegal. What law are you going to pass to make them more illegal?

[SOS]

37. A question

From your posts I see you are a strong 2nd Amendment supporter.

What do you make of the role of alcohol in many of these shootings?
The NYT reported that the Pittsburgh cop killer was stupendously drunk during the night leading into the morning massacre.
The North Carolina shooter was also, according to reports, a man with a serious drinking problem, including alcohol-related arrest.

Should people with a bac over .1 be arrested (like DWI) if they are in possession of a gun?

Someone who is drunk and in possession of a gun could then be directed into some type of alcohol treatment program.
The NRA might even support this, as they are in favor of responsible gun ownership.

Any thoughts on this under-reported element in many of these shootings?

[Statistical]

50. In most states that already is a crime.

Virtually anything you can think of is a crime when it involves firearms.
There are 20,000 laws on the books already.

Of course it depends on the state because most gun issues are a states rights issue.

[baldguy]

42. Gun worshipers with NRA law degrees are ALWAYS the MOST reliable source of info.

Didn't you know that?

:sarcasm:

[doctor jazz]

45. No, his information is absolutely correct. You are the only one who can repair your inability

or unwillingness to accept facts.

[saigon68]

22. People have a right to defend themselves against Thugs and Hoodlums

Those sub-humans don't care about any law

When they Rob your place of business.

[Pavulon]

40. Good luck with that. You will succeed at legalizing child porn first.

you guys are really hopeless.

[scrinmaster]

7. You do realize that AK clones were available during the AWB, right?

[spin]

11. How did you come up with that idea...

the federal ban against assault weapons banned weapons based on cosmetic items.

By former U.S. law the legal term assault weapon included certain specific semi-automatic firearm models by name (e.g., Colt AR-15, TEC-9, all non-automatic AK-47s, and Uzis) and other semi-automatic firearms because they possess a minimum set of features from the following list of features:

Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

* Folding or telescoping stock
* Pistol grip
* Bayonet mount
* Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
* Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device which enables the launching or firing of rifle grenades)

************snip*********

AWB advocates and opponents alike stated that the AWB allowed firearms manufacturers to make minor changes to make their affected firearms legal, and they both described the features affected by the ban as "cosmetic".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

I remember the last AWB. Almost everybody at the range (except me) suddenly wanted one of these firearms and bought one. They might have been slightly different than the firearms before the ban (no folding stock, bayonet mount, flash suppressor or grenade launcher), but basically they were the same weapon. Who cares about a bayonet mount anyhow?

Everyone who bought an "assault weapon" just had to have several high capacity magazines. They were also easy to obtain as the manufacturers had went to a three shift operation to produce as many as possible before the cut off date.

The last AWB was the ultimate example of a "feel good" law that accomplished nothing but did cause voters to show up at the polls and vote for Republicans. It also caused the sale of "assault weapons" to sky rocket which was exactly the opposite of what it was supposed to do. The price of these weapons and the high capacity magazines also increased, but not enough to discourage buyers.

If the ban was still in effect, the shooter would had no problem buying his weapon.

[TerribleLarryDingle]

17. What a load of horse shit.

[MercutioATC]

19. How is a semiautomatic AK-47 clone any different than most hunting rifles?

I'll ignore your ignorance of federal firearm law that heavily restricts the ownership of real (fully automatic) AK-47 rifles.

What is it about a semiautomatic AK-47 clone that so arouses your ire?

[Blandocyte]

23. Prolly the mags that hold more rounds than most hunting rifles

would be a big difference. There might be differences, too, if the AK was more concealable than most hunting rifles. Then there's the difference in the idea that most hunting rifles are used for hunting and most AKs are used "when you absolutely, positively have to kill every mothereffer in the room."

[MercutioATC]

24. I can buy aftermarket mags for any hunting rifle that approximate "assault weapon" mags.

...and any hunting rifle with a 20" barrel is just as concealable as an "AK-47"...plus, it doesn't generally cause nearly as much concern if somebody does see it.

The "idea" you speak of is only held by those who know nothing about firearms. People who are familiar with them know that your average hunting rifle is probably more suited to killing people in a greater variety of situations than an "assault weapon".

[RamboLiberal]

32. He shot the first cop with a shotgun

Officer Paul Sciullo, who police say never had a chance, was immediately shot in the head by a shotgun wielding Richard Poplawski who was ready in wait.

But in recreating the crime scene and in interviews with the suspect, police have learned that Stephen Mayhle reacted swiftly and decisively and single-handedly tried to bring the incident to an end.

Police say Mayhle immediately drew his service revolver and shot Poplawski in the leg and then fired again, hitting Poplawski in the chest. It was a round that probably would have killed him except for Poplawski's bulletproof vest.

Instead, Poplawski fell to the floor – his shotgun knocked from his hands. Police say Poplawski then scrambled into the bedroom where he grabbed his AK-47, as Mayhle followed into the bedroom doorway where they say Poplawksi fired, hitting Mayhle in the head.

http://kdka.com/local/Stanton.Heights.standoff.2.979013.html

And even under the AWB the killer still could have had a AWB legal version of the AK-47, or AR-15 or another "Assault Weapon". All the AWB did was ban cosmetic features of most "assault weapons", outlawed a few that IMHO were mostly junk anyway and outlawed the new manufacture of magazines over 10 rounds. You could still buy at an inflated price pre-ban magazines. And there were plenty of those around.

I seriously doubt the AWB would've prevented the deaths of these police officers.

[FudaFuda]

34. At least two of the policemen were killed with a shotgun. nt

[slackmaster]

38. That is nonsense Junkdrawer, and repeating it doesn't make it any less wrong

The number of semiautomatic AK-47 type rifles increased dramatically during the "ban", because it banned only features, not rifles.

And if he hadn't been able to get one of those, he would have used some other kind of weapon.

[virginia mountainman]

52. FUCKING OUTRIGHT LIE.....

The AW Ban did NOTHING, except drive up some prices, and cause importers to remove bayonet lugs...


And as for the hand them out like candy remark, when did candy have background checks, waiting periods, federal and state paperwork to go thru... Not to mention the near total lack of Real AK47's in the US Market.

Don't tell whoppers like that, and expect not to get called on it....

[Pavulon]

3. I am worried about 1995. I would like to use a powerful majorty to do somethign useful

not piss it away on some ban MURDERERS will ignore. A DD is the same as a felony, fix the local law. State should cover it.

This prick should have no more impact on legal firearm owners than a drunk driver does on my ability to enjoy a beer.

Only a fucking moron would think a ban will do anything. The Crack ban has been so effective.

Look to drug laws for your model when constructing any new regulations.

Use the majority to fix the root causes, not try to mess with the symptoms.

This is being dangled as bait, it looks really tasty. Grab it and we are DONE.

[depakid]

25. One doubts you're worried with 1995

Seems more like you're what you're worried with is the mounting evidence that's busting up outdated paradigms -in this instance, firearms proliferation.

It's to be expected. That's the way processes like this have always worked, through time immemorial,

[Pavulon]

39. No I'm good. I can buy around any stupid law put on the books.

I don't even own a semi-automatic rifle. But if i want one I can get a legal title 3 weapon. So unless you geniuses start proposing a ban on shotguns I am basically not impacted.

This shit impacts middle class and working class people, you know swing voters.

[xchrom]

4. recommend

[Doctor_J]

9. Well, that lets their dealers off the hook

the NRA? Not so much

[hollowdweller]

13. Rather than banning guns

I'd like to see something done that could potentially screen a few more of these crazy people out of being able to buy guns.

I mean with some of these people it was apparent they had mental health issues. If somebody can get busted for drugs on an anonymous tip there should be some sort of avenue for people who are concerned about someone who seems to be a potential threat to report it.

Just a thought but perhaps if you have any history of mental treatment perhaps those people should be given a greater level of screening before they are allowed to buy guns that have high rates of fire or big clips?? I mean still make it where they could get revolvers and hunting rifles but if they wanted a semi auto maybe they would have to get a doctor to make a statement for them??

I refuse to think the only way this can be solved is to ban guns.

`

[jefflrrp]

15. my friend . . .

a semi-auto rifle or pistol has the exact same rate of fire as a revolver. 1 pull of the trigger= 1 shot. I can reload my revolver with a 6-round speedloader faster than I can reload my pistol with a 15-round mag. Generally, unless youre not aiming at anything and just intending on causing fear, speedy firing (quickly pulling the trigger multiple times) isn't going to hit many targets

Plus, a hunting rifle usually has a more powerful round than a semi-auto. And a large amount of hunting rifles are semi-auto, and vice-versa.

Im all for a stricter mental health check on a background check, though.

[Fumesucker]

20. I can assure you that if you make it more difficult for anyone who has

"any history of mental treatment" to purchase firearms then you are going to keep a great many people away from admitting any kind of mental problems..

Keep in mind that the great majority of people seek counseling or treatment voluntarily.

And I speak as someone who is taking prescribed meds for bipolar disorder, I sought help on my own. If I had thought that I would be discriminated against in law for seeking help I would have avoided telling anyone of my problems like ebola.

I'm far from certain this problem is solvable in our society as it is currently constituted or as it is likely to be constituted in the foreseeable future, in fact just the opposite, I don't think this problem is solvable at all.

[TXRAT2]

26. I mean with some of these people it was apparent they had mental health issues.

I believe that was mentioned in two of the last 3 shooting's. At what point do we determine a person’s mental condition should keep them from owning or purchasing a firearm? The killer of all those kids on campus had a long history of mental problems and treatment, yet he was still allowed to own and purchase a firearm. Should just being treated for a mental problem be a red flag that keeps a person from owning? Should the treatment alone warrant notifying the authorities?

[JeanGrey]

33. He wasn't "allowed" to do anything. His history of mental

problems weren't reported, as they should have been. You can't stop something you don't know about.

[Missy Vixen]

36. Oh, we can't do that!

>At what point do we determine a person’s mental condition should keep them from owning or purchasing a firearm?<

That's never going to happen. After all, how many gun-toting, patriotic NRA members would be stripped of their weapons due to untreated mental illness? I submit it would be an extremely high number.

Imagine how much fun it would be for the law enforcement that would have to deal with something like this as well.

Let's put it this way: Those who carry can't resist bragging about it, attempting to intimidate others with their death toys, etcetera. It's not about safety. It's all about intimidation and fear.

In the meantime, it's almost comical to watch the heated defense and the side arguments about caliber, etcetera, we get on every goddamn one of these threads. It doesn't matter what the caliber was, whether or not it was automatic, bla bla bla. People are still dead. Of course, the gun fetishists have no response for that. At all. After all, those people don't matter to them, and they never will.

[doctor jazz]

47. Just FYI, revolvers and virtually all hunting rifles are semi-automatic.

:-)

[groundloop]

27. Leading cause of death for black men age 15 to 24 is guns

There are many more statistics that could be thrown around, but even without studies and fancy numbers it's obvious there's a problem. Bottom line is that it's way too easy for people to own guns who shouldn't. How do we fix that problem?

Maybe President Obama should tell the NRA and gun manufacturers they're going to sit down with law enforcement groups, form a commission, and make recommendations.

Maybe improving education for at-risk youth and ensuring more job opportunities will help slow the violence.

Maybe President Obama already has a plan and just needs to wait until after the economy, health care, and the environment are taken care of.

[wartrace]

28. Stricter enforcement & penalties for violators would be a good start.

There are very few states that allow concealed carry without a permit (Vermont is one that comes to mind). Obviously the penalties for being caught without a permit are not severe enough. If a felon is caught carrying a gun the penalties should be extreme. I bet the sentence for carrying drugs is more severe than carrying a handgun.

It seems as if nobody wants to address gun violence in the black community. Over half the gun homicide victims every year are black. Poverty & the war on drugs are a major contributor to this mortality rate.

[michreject]

44. This is a drug problem

Why would an inner city black male continue to go to school when he can make ten times the money dealing drugs. Those aren't sweet innocent victims you're refering to. They're thugs.

You want to get rid of shooting over drug turfs. Take the profit out of drugs.

[RamboLiberal]

35. NY gunman fired 98 shots in about a minute, police chief says

The gunman who killed 13 people at an immigrant services center fired 98 shots in a minute or so, the police chief in Binghamton, New York, said Wednesday.

Jiverly Wong, a 41-year-old Vietnamese immigrant from an ethnic Chinese family, fired 87 shots from a 9 mm pistol and 11 shots from a .45-caliber handgun, Chief Joseph Zikuski told CNN.

Investigators believe the victims died almost instantly, Zikuski said.

Wong was an "accomplished marksman" who frequented a shooting range in Binghamton, the chief said, and he bragged to others that he had fired more than 10,000 rounds.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/08/ny.shooting/index.html

[fascisthunter]

41. the NRA is paid not to give a shit

it's all about selling more guns for the gun manufacturers. Not about rights... especially when that right to own a gun trumps an innocent human being. But I'm glad they have shown their true colors again...

[doctor jazz]

49. Could you provide some information as to how much various arms manufacturers are giving to NRA?

I can't seem to find out.

[ThomWV]

51. Where do I get my permit to commit mass killings?

What permit did they have, pray tell.

Your post is pure and simple bullshit - does this reflect on the writer? Methinks.