Professor Jonathan Turley's missed comment tuesday describes Obama's Presidency

[ThomWV]

I believe it was tuesday evening that Professor Jonathan Turley was interviewed on Keith's show concerning the President's continued argument in favor of President Bush's wire tapping policy. During that interview the Professor made a comment describing President Obama that I thought would have really grabbed the attention of the many folks here who watch the show religiously.

No one commented on it so I want to repeat it now. I think he painted a perfect portrait of the Presidency we are seeing blossom.

I'm afraid I'll have to paraphrase but what he said was that it now appears that the Obama Presidency 'will be one of programs not principles.' I suppose that describes any Administration that considers itself pragmatic but in matters of Constitutional law there are no programs, its all principle, so what does that leave us?

[David Dunham]

1. Programs that help people now are more needed than abstract principles

[Why Syzygy]

3. Shock Doctrine. nt

[atreides1]

5. Not a supporter of the Constitution or the Rule of Law?

I never realized that some would be willing to give up their rights based on "abstract principles". Without principles programs are worthless, even programs that help people, because they can be adjusted in any way that the directors of those programs deem necessary.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

14. Excellent summation

Principles are where programs start. We may not like the principles, or agree with them, but there they are.

Everyone has an agenda, and when they civilize it, give it a bath, dress it up, and perfume it sweetly, it's then called a "principle".

[ThomWV]

9. That is a very very short sighted thing to say.

[Winterblues]

13. Since when is Constitutional Law an "Abstract Principle"?

:shrug:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

15. Since forever -

until it's applied, it's all abstract.

That's what makes it so dangerous, and why we have to be so careful with it, because it is when laws, or decisions, are drafted and published, then they become applicable, and then lives are affected.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

2. I heard that,

and I thought Turley's use of the word "programs" was ill-advised. "Programs" is too narrow a word, I think, for what he was describing. I think he meant "agendae," but thought "programs" was smoother, or easier to understand. Turley chooses his words carefully, but occasionally goes off the track in order to make sure he's understood.

As for matter of Constitutional law being all principles, well, that's idealizing the way the law works. In fact, the Constitution, as you can see from how Supreme Court decisions have evolved through the years, is always subject to events outside, how the world changes, so it's just as susceptible to the influence of "programs" as any other living thing.

[ThomWV]

8. Really? I think it is exactly the right word.

I took him to mean exactly what he said and although I don't recall every word of the discussion I am sure it was programs and principles he mentioned. I take programs to mean those things which make it through congress, have funding attached or not, and cause people to do work. No Child Left Behind or the TARP are programs, free speech or protection from unwarranted search and seizure are principles. Obama seems stuck on the former and not very interested in the latter.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

12. You're describing programs and bills and

laws. They are all the results of agendae which are subject to the legislative, and, very often, the judicial process. That's where they originate, and they're outgrowths of what the world demands - provided the interpreters are thinking clearly. See how the words dovetail, and why I think Turley might have confused the issue with the use of the word "programs"? If he'd said "agenda," it would have been much closer to the reality and the process.

But, words are slippery things.

I'm not sure Obama is stuck anywhere. I haven't had him as my President long enough to make an informed decision.

[MannyGoldstein]

4. The Bankers Are Bleeding - They Need Cash Now, Not Theories

Unless we can replenish to coffers of the bankers, Larry Summers' speaking fees will drop - and that's not something anyone wants to see.

There'll be time for "laws" and the "Constitution" later, once we get past this crisis.

[atreides1]

6. You forgot the sarcasm.

[enlightenment]

7. no kidding.

That one made my hair stand on end . . .

[MissMarple]

10. I think what shadows things a bit is that Obama is prioritizing his battles.

Assessing all the chaos that BushCo left behind, on purpose as well as from incompetence, is an incredibly nasty job. I think many of these things will be resolved in time. We may not like all of the solutions and resolutions that come about, but overall things will be better. I am not happy with a lot that is being continued or postponed, but Obama has no magic wand and Congress will have to grow a collective pair and step up to the plate as well.

The GOP bullies when it is in power and tantrums when it is not. Boehner and Cantor et al need to be treated like the selfish, pandering, whoring sycophants they are. Elected Democrats should quit trying to play nice and move firmly ahead with purpose. Will they? Hopefully they will, at least enough to bring back many of our lost civil liberties and the economic stability that fosters a strong middle class.

What ever happened to civics education in this country?

[ThomWV]

11. You ask the most important question "What ever happened to civics education in this country? "

What bothers me more than the possibility that it is not being taught anymore is that possibly our society has changed in such a way that it can't be understood anymore. Actually 'bothers' isn't the right word. The prospect terrifies me.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

16. As well it should ...........

When people don't understand how the legislative, executive and judicial processes work, separately and together, when they don't understand the power of their vote, when they aren't taught about our history, how our freedoms were hard-won and how we need to be informed and participating members of this great republic, then we're ripe for a takeover, and the past eight years brought us perilously close to that.

Eternal vigilance coupled with in-depth education will keep us safe ................................

[jkshaw]

17. I have been a little leery of Turley's comments

since I discovered that he testified for, and worked rather forcefully in, the effort to impeach President Clinton. I understand his efforts toward that impeachment helped to lessen the push to impeach Bush, where the reasons for impeachment are a thousand times more valid.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Turley's a cable news muckraker.

Fuck him.