The Restaurants of Paris (France) -- about service and stuff.

[TahitiNut]

Since it seems to be such a popular topic, I'd like to describe what I saw CONSISTENTLY during three and a half months of eating out in the restaurants of Paris and environs many years ago. Working in Aulnay sous Bois (a suburb) and staying at the Novotel (a plastic Motel 6), it was necessary to eat dinner in Paris or go mad. Virtually every evening was invested in selecting, making reservations, driving to, eating, and driving back from a restaurant in Paris. Les Guide Michelin was INVALUABLE ... even if the three-star restaurants weren't affordable for me.

I learned that a waiter in Paris was a well-paid and respected vocation. (Good chefs are gods.) I learned that an understaffed restaurant in Paris wouldn't survive. I learned that making a reservation, even if only 30 minutes ahead of time, meant I was polite enough to say "I'm here intentionally, not accidentally." I learned that the waiter was almost never around when I had everything I wanted, but arrived at about the same exact instant that I discovered I wanted more coffee, more water, or the next course. (I actually started testing this and trying to find the waiter when I didn't need anything. It was tough.) I learned that a waiter would never interrupt a conversation and could finish my sentences and look at him with a smile. I learned that a waiter's suggestion was VERY worth taking ... and soliciting. I learned that 15% was expected and 20% was a compliment and 25% ensured I'd be remembered. I learned that the bill would NEVER arrive until I asked "l'addition, s'il vous plaît." I learned that the waiter would never ask me about "EVERYTHING" but would always express his wish that I had a pleasant meal, trusting that I could speak for myself.

Even more, I learned that there were neighborhood restaurants owned and operated by couples who'd worked in restaurants all their lives and were working hard to make their own restaurant a success in a city with over 2,500 restaurants ... half of which failed each year or so.

I spent most of my career in the "belly of the (corporate) beast" ... in management systems, internal audit, operational analysis, and technical support roles. I NEVER saw a business as competitive and well-run as a restaurant in Paris. Never.


It was when I was first returning from a weekend trip -- a weekend sojourn somewhere else in France or Belgium -- driving back late at night (early in the morning) -- that I discovered how Paris was fed. Trucks. Produce and other foods being trucked into Paris every late night from the surrounding regions. I learned NOT to get in their way ... as they rolled on at about 120kmph. The French - and the Parisians - are obsessed with fresh produce and good food. It's a well-oiled machine. They might not be the world's first in some things ... but in EATING, they're beyond reach of anything I've seen in the states. Ever.

I tip. I'd be an idiot not to.

[xchrom]

1. recommend

waiting in paris is a job -- a career -- something you can do and pay your bills -- not something you do while college.

i've rarely been waited on in spain, italy, or france by someone who was making do until after university.

[Mr. Ected]

2. Great Stuff. Makes Me Miss Europe Deeply.

Never had the pleasure of Paris. Not yet, that is. You obviously know how to live.

[Suich]

3. Thanks for posting this, TahitiNut!

I haven't been to Paris yet, but I'll certainly remember your observations when I get there!!!

:hi:

[cobalt1999]

4. I agree about the small neighborhood restaurants in Paris

Last time my wife and I went, we took a recommendation to go to a small place down a side street.

Best food I ever had, best service too.

We were there for 3 more nights and came back to the same place each time. They knew us by then. We had our own table, our own server, our favorite wine ready. It was great.

[JDPriestly]

154. Absolutely. I remember that many years ago, we drove into a suburb of Paris

at a time when, for some reason, the restaurants were closed. Might have been August. Anyway, we asked people on the street to direct us to a restaurant and were told to go to an ordinary looking house on a side street. Inside, we saw a couple of long tables and a couple of real small round tables. A young couple invited us to sit down and told us they were cooking chicken. Hungry as we were and guessing that we had no choice, we ordered chicken -- and waited, and waited, and waited, and waited some more, joking as we waited that they must have rushed out bought the chicken, cut off its head, plucked it clean and were just now cooking it.

Finally, the young couple brought us our chicken. It was just astounding. As Tahiti Nut points out, it was fresh, cooked perfectly and served in great style. I assume that this young couple was just opening their restaurant in their home -- just getting started on a low budget. One of the most memorable meals I have ever eaten.

And Tahiti Nut is so right about the French the obsession with freshness. My French friends taught me that you should buy vegetables fresh each day -- no exceptions. But of course the best, freshest vegetables are those you grow yourself. And I find myself experimenting with gardening more and more because the fresh vegetables are just so good.

For the French, food is an aesthetic, sensual experience. Vive la France.

[NRaleighLiberal]

5. Our food culture in the US is really weird (or family's is)... I do most of the shopping

and it is remarkable looking at the other shopping carts. There are aisles I completely avoid - crackers/cookies, frozen food prepared meals - and we tend to load up on fresh produce, grains, and buy seafood the day we eat it. Most carts are loaded with TV dinners, canned veggies and pastas - fat, salt and empty calories.

I don't mean to digress, but the relationship between your excellent post and mine I think is a cultural appreciation for food that has either been lost or never has widely existed in the US. With the elevated produce prices, I eagerly anticipate what comes out of our big garden!

[NeedleCast]

78. We make it hard to shop small in the US

I'm a single guy with no kids. I love to cook and am pretty good at it, but it's very hard for me to find portion sizes at a grocery store that, when cooked, wont go to waste. I admit that I sometimes eat frozen or pre-packaged meals because they're easy and cooking for one can be a bore (and I have to clean it all up).

There's got to be a niche market out there for some of you DU entrepreneurs. Open a store dedicated to fresh food, small (or non-family) sized portions, and a focus on locally supplied meats and produce. If you open it in Falls Church, VA, you'd have at least one customer...

[northzax]

83. check this out

washingtonsgreengrocer.com

they deliver produce, good produce, every week. or every two weeks, whatever you need. I've used them in DC for two years, and they're great. you can do an organic or a regular box, small or large, and make substitutions if you really don't like oranges or something. they fill in the winter gaps when the Farmer's market isn't in play in Mt. Pleasant, and supplement it in the summer. We have long since ceased buying our produce at Giant or Whole Foods, except for the odd speciality item.

and no, I am in no way affiliated with them except as a customer.

[NeedleCast]

84. Wow, thanks

I'll check that out for sure.

[elleng]

159. Signing up now!

THx

Don't have your name as 'referral!'

[wolfgangmo]

85. check out this link

www.localharvest.org

they list almost all of the CSA's, farmers markets, etc. in the US. If you want small, local produce including meats, veggies, fruits, etc. this is the the source for linking up with a local farmer.

You'll save money in my experience and get a much better product.

[northofdenali]

110. You may be lucky enough to have a CSA type farm locally.

Over the last 20 years, Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) has become a popular way for consumers to buy local, seasonal food directly from a farmer. Here are the basics: a farmer offers a certain number of "shares" to the public. Typically the share consists of a box of vegetables, but other farm products may be included. Interested consumers purchase a share (aka a "membership" or a "subscription") and in return receive a box (bag, basket) of seasonal produce each week throughout the farming season. http://www.localharvest.org/csa/

They're wonderful, even up here in the far-north climes where greenhouses are the way to go even in summer. If you love cooking, this is the BEST produce you can get except growing your own (or at a you-pick or local farmer's market) and you can also arrange for enough to can/freeze for the winter.

[Tunkamerica]

124. I agree heartily and would shop there if in Durham, NC.

[Hippo_Tron]

156. I sometimes mix frozen/prepared with non-frozen stuff

Like those Annie Chung's rice/noodle bowls, for example. They're a lot quicker and easier than making rice or noodles from scratch but they're not really a complete meal. I often make some fresh veggies and chicken in a skillet while I'm heating up the prepared thing in the microwave and mix the two together.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

6. Thanks for one of the best posts it has ever been my pleasure to read

K&R.

[Joe Chi Minh]

71. The very observations the OP makes speak volumes about her own rare qualities,

it seems to me.

[marmar]

7. D'accord.....

..... You just need a different mindset when dining in Paris (or Madrid or Rome or Barcelona for that fact of matter). A meal is enjoyed languidly, so sitting hemming and hawing (as more than a few of les americains did) when the waiter passed by without dropping off the bill is a complete waste of time.
Once you get a table at a restaurant in Paris, it's assumed you're going to be there for a while. And after returning home from my first visit to Paris, I realized how much our approach toward dining out here in the U.S. sucks. If you spend much longer than an hour at a restaurant here you'll be stared down like you've got three heads.

[TahitiNut]

12. Dinner was two hours, at least. Conversation, enjoying the food and wine.

I ate like a king ... but lost weight. There was rarely ANYTHING that wasn't well-prepared. Vegetables aren't some afterthought ... something slopped on the plate so it could be called a dinner. They were invariably fresh and perfectly prepared. I got used to a four-course dinner ... apéritif (usually Ricard), appetizer (terrine, usually, with cornichon), main course, salad, and dessert (chocolat) ... then the digestiv (often brandy).

It was almost always wise to take a walk afterwards ... and a joy.

[XOKCowboy]

17. LOL - The joy of walking off a good French dinner

OK Stop it! I can only stand so many good memories.

[inna]

146. speaking of Spain.... or specifically, Barcelona....

.... i spent a couple of weeks there, and i was consistently astounded by horrible, rude 'service'.


Paris, on the other hand, was just immaculate in terms of 'service' (somewhat contrary to my expectations).




interesting thread, anyway. ~

[JerseygirlCT]

8. What surprises me

is that you described - almost - the service at a stupid chain store Bertucci's near us. The waitstaff are all very good. Amazing in a chain place!

[Stinky The Clown]

20. Bertucci's is a surprising gem of a chain operation

They're the only chain with DOP certified pizzas on their menus.

You're right about the wait staff, which reflects on the local manager, which reflects on the district manager, which reflects on the top guys' desire for the 'flavor' of the brand.

[JerseygirlCT]

62. LOL - enjoy their waitstaff, but not their pizza!

I'm from N. Jersey - I grew up with the real thing!

[givemebackmycountry]

9. I like this thread -

It made me happy and hungry and determined to get a passport and head my ass to an airport.

[santamargarita]

10. And check out the right-wing asshole ordering 'Freedom Fries'

:think:

[JackDragna]

11. If you want a comparable experience, go to New Orleans.

I'm not running down Paris, but I think NO is right up there. There's more restaurants in the Quarter and CBD, per capita, than any urban area in the world. Competition for restaurant business is fierce, radio shows are devoted to cooking and the restaurants produce nationally known chefs. If you get a chance, come to New Orleans. I can't say it'll be like Paris, but I can guarantee you won't be disappointed.

[cobalt1999]

14. I've agree.

Heading to the French Quarter Festival next weekend and I'm looking forward to the food.

[TahitiNut]

18. I've eaten out in virtually every large city in the US, including NO.

The best I've had was Cincinatti (closed, now) and Chicago (La Chiminee, closed I think). I walked out of Chez Paul in disgust. If I wanted abuse, I'd go to Lindy's in New York (when it was open).

I've been to Court of the Seven Sisters *iirc) and Pat O'Briens and a couple other restaurants in Nawlins ... way back when. Not bad ... but unless I went SPENDY and stayed away from tourists, just average.

You see ... even in the tourist areas of Paris, the service is superb. ONLY ONCE, when I wasn't waited upon after being seated for 20-25 minutes, did I throw a couple of francs on the table and leave. That WAS on the Champs Elysees and the waiter hastened to catch us and try to apologise ... but I said "too late."

[JackDragna]

23. There's plenty of good, reasonably priced places in NO.

If you want some recs, let me know. Court of Seven Sisters is okay, but not the cream, and Pat O's is a place to get drunk, not to eat. :)

[cobalt1999]

27. Hey, post those recs!

I'm always looking for new places to try!

[JackDragna]

32. Let's see..

Casamento's, Lil' Dizzys, Pascal's Menale (a signature place in NO..get the barbecue shrimp), Dunbar's, to start. Also, make sure you go to the Cafe du Monde, if you've never been.

[cobalt1999]

24. You must mean The Maisonette in Cincy

It was a great place.

[TahitiNut]

25. That's it! (I don't know why I was blocked on the name.)

Yes ... the best. NOT pretentious! Calm, welcoming, comfortable, and SUPERB. There was not the slightest 'attitude" nor any problem delivering every person's courses when they wanted and how they wanted. They didn't miss a beat and were outstanding in every respect. I was VERY impressed ... and it takes something to do that after Paris.

[cobalt1999]

30. Best Duck I ever had, that's why I remembered it.

Like you, I do a lot of traveling and have eaten at restaurants around the world. It takes something for me to be impressed.

Also, one of the best sushi experiences I've had was in the Kentucky suburbs of Cincy near the Toyota plant. Who would think you'd get better sushi in Kentucky than in NY or LA?

[medeak]

56. in agreement with everything you said

believe me... love N.O. but nothing compares with Europe

am looking to rent apt in Venice in a few months.. any one have any hints for dining?

[Joe Chi Minh]

72. Probably John Grisham, if you could get hold of him. He's a great fan of Italian nosh.

[wolfgangmo]

86. I too have eaten in almost every state and large city in the US.

We have nothing, NOTHING, to compare to it. NO comes a distant, but good, second along with Montreal in Canada (best 2 places in NA).

[CreekDog]

108. well, what do we Americans value enough to care and take time for?

i mean anymore?

it seems like the only thing that commands the dedication described in the OP, at least as an industry, is the financial industry --and that for the purpose of making money.

it's a shame. if it weren't for sports, it seems like this country would only value the making of money.

[patrice]

41. Thanks for the tip. I will seriously suggest it to my grown son & daughter the next

time we do something like that.

I think I would like that very much!

[Sgent]

57. Agree

At the high end I'll put Galatoire's, Antoine's, and Commander's against anyone. At the medium end Pascal Manale's and Mr. B's are great. At the other end Casamonte's is phenomenal (along with others).

This doesn't mention places like K Pauls, Bayona, Crepe Nanu, GW Fins, Bourbon House, etc...

[nichomachus]

103. My first trip to NO, I was warned about eating from hole in the wall restaurants

Never had a problem with them. Went to Brennans for dinner one night and got food poisoning so bad I wouldn't even wish it on Dick Cheney.

I couldn't really eat for two weeks after. I've been back to NO since and have never had a problem, but I still cross the street when I pass Brennans.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

117. The Brennan's in Houston was destroyed.

I think either Hurricane Ike or a fire got it.

However, I can't eat shellfish OR spicy stuff, so Cajun would not agree with me. :D

[Hippo_Tron]

157. Being from New Orleans, I agree

I don't live there most of the year anymore and sometimes I didn't realize how good the food is until I left. I ate at Cheesecake Factory the other night. I had never been but my friends always rave about how wonderful it is. When I got my food, it was alright, but kind of bland and not really worth what I paid for it. Then I realized that my friends aren't from New Orleans and didn't have the selection of reasonably priced great food that I do back at home.

[BlueJazz]

13. Good Post. Thanks !

[Olney Blue]

15. The food in Paris is my favorite. Thanks for the fun post!

:hi:

[XOKCowboy]

16. Tres Bien!

Eating in France was truly a transcendent experience. It was just as you said in Paris. Only the best survive and competition is fierce. We never ate in the hotel but always had the concierge make reservations for our party of 13-15. The service was amazing and the food indescribable.

In Cannes it was different. The food was just as good but the service was more free-form so to speak. More friendly maybe. Twice we had waitpeople ask to wait on us so they could practice their English and were guaranteed a good meal and personal service. Plus a chance to make friends and get tips about local attractions.

Thanks for the post. It took me back to some very good times. Italy and France definitely have us beat when it comes to food.

[TahitiNut]

21. I should also mention the chairs. They were comfortable.

They didn't choose chairs that put my ass to sleep and force me to leave after an hour. Nope. The chairs accommodated my 6'2" frame and supported my back ... and I was never uncomfortable. I was also never so close to another diner that I had to guard my food, even in the most popular places.

[Stinky The Clown]

19. When I was in school, after I got out of the Navy, long about 1969 ......

.... they taught us that, in France, a chef, in terms of societal respect, was every bit the equal of a judge or doctor. A waiter, as you say, was a respected profession, not a 'settle fort' job while waiting (pun intended) for something better to come along.

I had classmates from France, Spain, and Italy. All three countries saw culinary professionals much the same way.

On our last visit to Paris, we were in Montparnese in a small hotel. Our room was a loft with the windows set into the angle roof and with no curtains. The sun woke me VERY early and I took to early morning constitutionals. Me and the fish and produce and meat and poultry and egg trucks in the neighborhood. I struck up a "bonjour" acquaintance with the two fishmongers at the end of the street as they set up their shop for the day. The fish was all incredibly fresh and they arranged it as if it were going on display at the Louvre. So did all the other shop owners.

Food is very important to the French.

And to the Italians.

And to the Spanish.

While supermarkets exist, the specialty shop still thrives.

The food business is culturally important at all levels.

[patrice]

22. You're right about fresh! I learned how even a cheap toasted sandwich and

an apple from a cart in the train station could be absolutely wonderful.

[TahitiNut]

28. A Monte Cristo? (Yum!)

Almost everything food-related was good in Paris. We used to enjoy picking up some vin d'table, a baguette, and some cheese ... and going to a park (like the Bois d'Bologne) and having a 'mini-picnic' in the sun on a Saturday afternoon. C'est la bonne vie.

[patrice]

37. My daughter and I rode bicycles in the Loire River Valley too.Beautiful clean, nearly empty, asphalt

roads, winding through lush fields of short, but large, sunflowers amongst hills full of vineyards, every now and then a quiet little village built almost entirely of field stone. You could leave you money in a little box, while the grower sat nearby having a chat with neighbors, and take sweet juicey nectarines that smelled like flowers. Beautiful, beautiful weather bright blue sky, little puffy white clouds and, of course, the old chateaus.

We weren't very good with their language, but the French always had exquisite manners, never toooooo nice nor disdainful.

[TahitiNut]

42. I love that region. Good wines and wonderful Son et Lumieres at the chateaus.

The flowers and produce are terrific all over France ... but the Loire is special.

[NeedleCast]

104. The Wine

I got spoiled by an ex-roommate and good friend. His wife (girlfriend at the time) works for American Airlines on international routes. She did a lot of European and South American trips and we'd always (bribe) her to bring back as much wine as possible. So nice paying three Euros for a bottle of French red that would cost 25 dollars in any store here in the states or getting wines from Chili or some of the other South American wine countries. Still, for my dollar (or Euro) nothing beats French reds.

[TahitiNut]

113. Some of the better wines don't "travel well" I guess.

I actually regard Beaujolais Nouveau in that way ... it's NOTHING near as good here as there. I was quite fond of the local wines in the Loire and Beaujolais, particularly the Grand Crus. Almost any vin d'table sold in a neighborhood market in Paris was a treat, but stopping at the smaller wineries and cafes on the weekend was a wonderful adventure.

[NeedleCast]

114. They probably don't

although I know little about wines except which ones I like to pour into my stomach. The ones we had brougth back were mostly of the table wine variety but were still (I think) equal to a 25+ dollar bottle you'd pick up in the states.

[Trocadero]

33. Everything was good there - even museum cafeteria food was good - jambon et fromage

[Trocadero]

34. croque monsieur

[patrice]

40. When I think of some of the things I've eaten in airports here, sometimes I get a little sick

at the memory.

Why don't Americans have croque monsieur? Of if you could find one, it would cost you $10.00.

[XOKCowboy]

35. For me it was a tomatoe/mozzarello sandwich in the Milan airport....

It truthfully looked dry and plastic but one bite and you knew it was made fresh that morning with home grown tomatoes and homemade mozzarella. Even the bread was fresh. I could really get used to that.

[TygrBright]

131. Yeah... When I was in Paris I was too poor to eat at restaurants...

...more than once a week, or so.

But every morning, across from the hostel I was staying at, I would join a queue of people waiting for the big shutters to be pulled open on a counter joint across the street.

Counter joints (I don't know if they still have them) are just that-- counters, set flush to the sidewalk. Behind those counters is (was) some of the best food in Paris.

I would get a ham croissant that makes me whimper in ecstasy just to remember. And a cup of that weird, slightly addictive, very dark, very strong coffee with chicory added, and lashings of whole milk with blobs of cream forming on the top.

I'd be good to go for the whole morning.

Lunch, I'd go to one of the counter joints a couple of streets over and get a sandwich made from half a buttered baguette, flipped onto the grill to warm and toast, and tangy semi-soft cheese, and thin-sliced, slightly tart, smooth, juicy pears, with a drollop of a savory jam made from onions. And a glass like a half-tumbler of whatever vin the counter guy shoved at me. Then over to a counter patisserie for something that would bring me near orgasm and have me walking on air all afternoon.

I have to stop now, and mop the drool off the keyboard.

nostalgically,
Bright

[Tangerine LaBamba]

26. Beautiful story, TN,

and some wonderful lessons in there.

The other day, I thought quite gratefully of my Italian grandparents, with whom we lived when I was growing up - the classic extended family. My nonno owned a grocery store, and the trucks - small ones, local - were there before dawn every day but Sunday during the season. He had deals with all the local farmers in anthracite country in NE PA. A small slice of agricultural heaven in between the strip mining.

I learned about freshness and daily shopping. All the women in the neighborhood were there every day, getting their produce, spices, flour, sugar, coffee, bread, but never "American" bread. Nonno carried that for the Polish families who lived not too far away.

Plus, on an empty lot across the street from the store and the house where we lived, he had a garden and a grape arbor. I learned about tomatoes picked, still warm from the sun, wiped on his shirt, and sprinkled with the small salt shaker he had in his pocket, fed to his little granddaughter, who never forgot. Grapes feeling fuzzy, but sweet and juicy, grapes whose leaves sheltered us from the hot sun and provided a little kid a place to climb and munch.

So, the other day, as I checked out at the market, the tab was almost eighty bucks. Not a bit of prepared food in there - produce, cheeses, pasta, wine, beer, and ice cream (hey, a life without ice cream is NOT worth living). And I thought of my grandparents.

I know it's a luxury, and I'm lucky. Your wonderful post reminded me of that.

K&R and thank you very much.

[TahitiNut]

44. My grandparents were Norwegian. Lutefisk. Uffda.

On the other hand, there were the smorgasbords and Swedish pancakes and butter cookies and stuff ... and the rhubarb 'pudding' my grandmother would make. I loved that rhubarb pudding. A dozen winks in each spoonful.

:silly:

[myrna minx]

29. Beautiful sentiments about a beautiful city. Thank you. n/t

[Trocadero]

31. Mange ou bois?

a waiter asked us - Are you here to eat or drink?

We were there to mange.

[closeupready]

36. My favorite Paris restaurant memory -

(I used to live there) - is probably from almost the day I arrived - I was staying temporarily in a hostel near La Republique and there was a little cafe down on a side street - pretty non-descript, just a typical lunch spot, formica tables, etc. but they had the most luscious roast chicken. OMG - for five dollars, you'd get salad, entree (the chicken and some bread and some veggie), and dessert (creme brulee or something basic like that) with a half carafe of wine. That was a wonderful introduction to cheap eating in France. :) Don't know if I can say it was the BEST meal I had there, but it was one of the most memorable.

[TahitiNut]

39. Paris is definitely a city for people with functioning taste buds.

From Tour d'Argent to Chez Momnpop, I was always fascinated. One of life's greatest pleasures (imho) is sitting in the afternoon sun at a sidewalk cafe on the Rive Gauche, or Montmartre, or near the Opera ... noshing and quaffing and watching the people. Even Fouquet's ... life's pleasure.

I still have a 'Jones' for Restaurant Nicolas, near the Gare du Nord. Awesome. I ate there maybe a dozen times in all and was always pleased and always impressed. Traditional. Two stars. Perfect (for me).

[closeupready]

43. I like all the cheap little doner kebab places, too.

Even the ethnic food is delish.

Speaking of which, there is one excellent Lebanese restaurant I go to every single time I go back - odd that I can't recall the name, but it's in the Marais on a street running parallel to Rue de Rivoli. The proprietor recognizes me each time, which is a nice touch.

[Lorien]

80. The street food in Paris is far better than what a lot of 'fine restaurants"

serve here in America. I've never had a bad meal there.

[Citizen Worker]

38. Dining out in Paris

How well I remember a little place in the Left Bank.

A small restaurant called le Grenier.  I went with friends
from Paris.  We arrived at 8:00 P.M., and left at 4:00 the
following morning.  Everyone was having such a good time that
a large crowd formed outside demanding to get in.  The
proprietors had to lock the door, letting new customers in as
people would leave.  Not many left that night.

The two owners, a couple of Polynesian guys, serenaded the
clientele with ukeleles until a friend of their's arrived.  A
Spanish expat this gentleman entertained for a few hours with
beautiful songs from several operas.  It was a night to
remember.

I haven't been back to Paris since but when I do I will find
that little restaurant and see if the magic will return.

What a night indeed!!!

[Mimosa]

45. Dining out

Jack Dragna, the restaurant which is a bit touristy in New Orleans is the 'Court of Two Sisters', not Seven Sisters. *smile* What are you drinking? Other than that I agree with you that the food culture of New Orleans is very different from the rest of America. It is basically a melding of french, Sicilian, Spanish and African-American.

A member of my home forum who originally came from D.U. Posted this link to a blog re: New Orleans restaurants. Whoever 'Passionate Eater' is, she certainly knows the good places in my former home town:

http://passionateeater.blogspot.com/search/label/New%20Orleans%20Eats

I know many Americans seem lazy about preparing meals and demanding high quality ingredients. But I come from a family in which we all prepared and enjoyed fresh foods of excellent quality. When women hit the workplace in big numbers home cooking in America declined. People shouldn't come to think that all or even most great dining entails meals eaten at restaurants. That wasn't true in European countries. I worry when people start assuming the best cuisine is what people buy from restaurants. Yes, restaurants are often the best places to go to for cuisine involving complicated preparations and rare ingredients. But real cooking is home based. Because South Louisiana has great home cooks the restaurants always had to try harder. *smile*

[AndyTiedye]

46. Got any Favorites?

[marmar]

47. For "Down Home" French Provincial cooking in a busy but friendly atmosphere....

..... there's a restaurant in the St. Germain-des-Pres area of the Left Bank called Polidor. Fricaseed chicken to die for.
And if you like Moroccan food, the couscous at 404 is great.

[TahitiNut]

48. Restaurant Nicolas ... near the Gare du Nord

It's been many years, but that was my favorite. Traditional. Two stars in the Michelin. In about a dozen visits, I was NEVER disappointed.

One time, three of us got there for dinner and were sitting enjoying our aperitifs. The Matre'd came over and apologized and asked if we'd mind moving to another table. He'd just gotten a reservation for a larger party and wanted to put tables together. We gladly accommodated him. No problem. We didn't even have to carry our drinks. After we were settled and ordered our meals, he came over with a chilled bottle of the house label champagne ... as a "thank you" for the inconvenience. (There just wasn't any inconvenience to even speak of, but he insisted.) So, I offered to change tables again for another bottle of champagne. We all got a good chuckle. Good feelings all around.

At the end of my business trip, I wanted to take a French co-worker and his wife to dinner as a way to thank them for being such good hosts. They'd had us over for dinner at ther place while we were there and he was always helpful at work. We took them there. They had not been there ... but were very favorably impressed and said they'd be back. He explained that the restaurant was a 'traditional' one where teen-agers could get a job (earlier than legal) and train to be waiters. (We actually had dinner at one of the 'training tables' ones - it was great.)

Restaurant Nicolas. My favorite.

I also liked Au Boeuf Corronne (for beef) and Androuet (for cheese specialties).

[medeak]

49. Oh TAILLEVENT!

http://www.taillevent.com/

thank you for reminding me of wonderful day spent there. Magically water and wine glasses were filled by invisible people the instant I took a sip. Four hour incredible experience. Only photo of my husband smiling in France was in Taillevent's underground wine cellar holding a 60 yr old priceless bottle of wine. We brought 4 bottles of their precious collections home to savor for weddings and college graduations. Thanks for the memories!

[TahitiNut]

51. Pricey, pricey, pricey ...

... but oh so gooood. :silly:

[medeak]

53. best $ ever spent

was in Tuscany two weeks ago...no comparison ;-)

[RagAss]

50. I can live on the cheeses, bread and wine.

[Lilith Velkor]

54. I've done that.

[eridani]

52. A story about NATO troops from about 15 years ago

For three American MREs, you could get one of the French equivalent.

[keroro gunsou]

55. never been to france

but i've been to ireland and japan.

the japanese are pretty hard core about cooking, it's all fresh or nothing... even some of the instant stuff has expiration dates on them 1/6th of what the same item in america would be. the host family i stayed with on my student exchange has neighbors that owned a grocery store and i always offered to help (no ugly american i am), they were getting stuff like instant ramen in on a daily basis, since it expired within 7 days. not big on raw fish, but even the tonkatsu i usually ate was awesome, even from the 7-11ish stores there.

ireland is a whole 'nother ball of wax. i usually ate in the pubs, which meant i was noshing on bread and baked potatos... but oh that fresh butter... yum.

and in ireland, they take open mic night SERIOUSLY, even for vistors like myself. warning: don't hum a song in a pub and not be expected to sing it with the rest of the group.

[TahitiNut]

59. The Club Med in Tahiti (on the island of Moorea) was an interesting collision of cuisine cultures.

That club attracted 1/4th of its visitors from Europe (mainly France), 1/4th from Australia and New Zealand, 1/4th from North America (mainly Americans), and 1/4th from Asia (almost all Japanese). Thus, the menu (a buffet) was almost always a diverse array of mouth-watering foods ... nigiri sushi and fresh pineapple, eggs Benedict and croissants, and a roast pig once a week, slow roasted in a pit.

I lived with (engaged to be engaged) a Japanese gal for two years ... and adored her wok cookery. She schooled me in sushi - and I'm now an addict. Only eating at the Japanese restaurants in Silicon Valley that "passed muster," I fell in love with fresh Japanese vegetables (not so much the seaweed) and the preparations. Yum!!

The French paid me the "ultimate compliment" when I was in France. They observed that I was BOTH a gourmet and a gourmand. They liked that about me. (I like good food.)

:rofl:

[keroro gunsou]

67. right now

i'd kill for a good japanese restaurant that had some taiyaki.... :cry:

well, that and some decent yakitori.

i had the best time in both ireland and japan.

the highest compliment i got in ireland was from a pub waitress how said i got up and was unafraid to sing. to which i replied, ma'am you confuse courage with intoxication. well, i wasn't drunk per se, i did have at least one in me... but i am a total lightweight with alcohol. the pub i went to i was referred to as whiskey, not because i drank it, but because i could be counted on singing whiskey in the jar, among other pub songs....

did not sing much in japan, kareoke bars weren't coming up back then like they have in the past few years. then again, i was a high school student and never went to bars... akihabara on the other hand... they knew me. so did the police in my neighborhood. not because i was a troublemaking gaijin... but because i got lost... a lot.

[truedelphi]

58. Thanks, TahititNut, for such a pleasant and informative

Topic. Only down side is it made me hungry.

The French have a much higher rate of true good health in part because they visit and entertain so often. Meals are not something thrown in a microwave and eaten alone.

And they love their fresh produce.

[krabigirl]

60. You didn't mention a few other things. They don't take kindly to "special requests"

ie no substitutions, ever, especially in the best restaurants. No biggie for me, but imagine the outcry here.

Even if you order something and they bring the wrong dish, often, you just suck it up and eat it. (this happened to a French friend of mine).

[uppityperson]

61. Question. My French inlaws told me to never tip

Of course I did not eat in fancy places, just neighborhood cafes, but they told me to never tip. They lived in Paris, grew up near Le Mans. Perhaps they ate at different places.

Funny thing here. When I write about France I hear it Francophied pronunciation. Merci

[Mass]

134. A 15 % service charge is included in the price. You can tip if the service was good, but never

at the level included in the OP. However, I have seen some people trying to take advantage of foreign tourists. (Even in fancy places, you would not tip at a 15 % rate).

I grew up in France, and am still surprised hearing France and Paris the American way, but I am getting used to it after that many years.

[uppityperson]

151. Merci beaucoup (sp)

That makes sense, having it all included automatically. Thank you. Where, how, why did you grow up in France?

[trof]

63. Bistro owner showed me how to make pommes frites.

When I was with TWA we had usually settled on a hangout in just about every layover city. The one in Paris was just down the street from the hotel. It was a small bistro run by Jean and his wife and oldest daughter. We dubbed it 'The Office'. If you wanted to see what other crews were in town, you dropped by the office for a beer or glass of wine.

Even if I had dinner plans for another restaurant, I'd usually order some pommes frites to munch on with my drink. They were fantastic.

One night I asked Jean how they were prepared. He took me back to the tiny kitchen and showed me!

The 'secret': First deep fry at 320 until done, but not browned. About 4-5 minutes. When ready to serve, put them in oil at around 370 until crisp and golden brown.
yum

[MineralMan]

64. I have similar memories, even though it has been many years

since I was in France. There are few restaurants here who take eating as seriously as the smallest one anywhere in France.

Even street food is terrific. I stopped at a street vendor in the parking lot of a hypermart once. They had one thing to offer...hamburgers.

On a propane fired griddle, they were cooking sliced onions. When you ordered, they'd make a patty from chopped (not ground) beef and put it on the griddle, after clearing a space in the onions. No hurrying. You watched as the beef cooked, and it wasn't at a really high temperature, either...just enough to brown the meat. After what seemed like a long time, with many turnings and inspections, the meat was almost ready.

Then, and only then, the roll was sliced and slathered with sauce mayonnaise, whisked up at that moment in a copper bowl. The meat went on, then a large pile of the onions from the griddle went on and voila! you had the best hamburger on the planet.

Fresh bread, onions, meat, mayonnaise. Unbeliveably good. In the meantime, most of the orchestra I was touring with had gone into a Burger King that was attached to the hypermart. Idiots!

[MellowDem]

65. That's weird

when I was over in Europe, I was told to never tip, as the tip was already part of the bill. I never ate anywhere really fancy, being a student with little money, mostly cafes or donor kebabs. I remember when I was in Paris with a friend, we ran into two other classmates from our school eating outside at a restaurant. We went and sat down with them just to converse with them as they ate, but when the waiter came out, he shooed us out of there, haha. The wait staff really didn't like young travellers with backpacks I noticed. They probably figured we were too poor to eat well and order a lot, which they were right. :P

[TahitiNut]

66. "Service compris"

Seeing that on the menu, usually the "prix fixe" menu, indicated that the (typically 15%) tip was included in the bill. In such instances, I'd adjust accordingly and leave a little extra based on the service.

[MellowDem]

73. ahh... that makes sense now

Good thing I never ate anywhere that was a sit-down restaurant, I might've accidently jipped the waiters! I remember being told to never ask for a "doggy bag" for your leftover food either, as they might take it to mean you thought the food was so bad it was only worthy of being put in a bag meant for dog food!

[Mass]

135. all meals are " service compris", whether they say so or not. It is the law.

[TahitiNut]

137. Y'know, I gotta wonder about the obsession with this.

When I was there for the long stay I'm speaking about, I recall that some DID and some DIDN'T ... and there were the occasional times that the tip was included with the "menu"/prix-fixe offering ("Service Compris") and not with the "carte" offerings. I do recall that it was something I had to consider (included or NOT) when I paid. That was in the late 70s. I've visited Paris twice since and Tahiti three times and I quite frankly don't recall that point much. What I DO recall was the professionalism of the service and the excellence of the food - from soup to nuts. That's what I was trying to emphasize.

[Mass]

139. Because people who know France well are surprised when you speak about this type of tipping.

No biggie except that they may have thought necessary to inform other people that they do not need to tip that heavily (it may have been the case in the 70s, though I am not sure when the law passed, but it is not the case now).

I am sorry, but it was striking for most of us, I guess. When it comes to service in this country, it is very unequal, but it is also the case in France (though it does not necessarily have to do with how expensive it is - not talking about " restauration rapide" (fast food), of course). Some places are great, some less so. The food quality is generally better though. I have eaten in some restaurants in the middle of nowhere where the food was really excellent, but you have to know them.

[mainer]

68. It's a place where you'll find old waiters.

In France, being a waiter is actually considered a lifetime career. Which just goes to show us that one can actually make a living at it.

[H2O Man]

69. Very good.

Nominated.

Being decent pays off. And grumpy people who whine about tipping bring their own frustrations upon themselves.

[leveymg]

70. People who have interesting politics also seem to have had wide personal experience of the world

Some, like you, are very worldly.

Thank you for gracing us with this.

[AllieB]

74. I love the places that sell the rotisserie chickens outside on the sidewalks.

I could live on those. The chicken there tastes so much better than in the US. I think they inject them with butter!

[yy4me]

75. You bring back great memories. All of France is wonderful but

there is something about the restaurants in Paris that sets them apart. Maybe it is just great food combined with great people watching. Waiters have manners, a rushed meal is about 2 hours(hard for us eat & run Americans) We had to learn to slow down and eat later in Europe. Sometimes a little hard when you ate only breakfast and spent the days seeing the wonders of Europe.

I found much the same in Belgium. Courteous waiters, unrushed meals, great food. I only wish I liked mussels. Everyone orders them and they come in a huge bowl with frites on the side.

Some day if I can, I'd love to go back to Europe. It would be hard to find an area I didn't think was fantastic.
Except Luxembourg city. Lovely but too expensive by far.

Thanks for your great commentary.

[PassingFair]

76. Vacationed in France with 2 British couples....

the waiters would hear their accents and
IGNORE us.

When they heard ME first, we got the BEST
SEATS, etc.

Reason: My cheap-ass British relatives
DO NOT TIP AT ALL, and they don't see
why anyone WOULD.

My cousin says that tipping in Britain
is considered an insult.

I tried to tell him that Americans
and French waitstaff LIVE on their
tips.....

[NeedleCast]

77. I Think Its A Better System

Than the one in the US.

Servers in France (and most of Europe) are paid a decent wage. Some of them make outstanding wages. That alone makes the dining experience better for the customer because there's no pressure to turn tables. I'm always blown away by the quality of service and food quality in Europe. You're right, they take eating out very seriously, but in a fun way usually.

The US system is ruined by all the mega-chains...although I'm guilty of eating at them sometimes. Because they pay decently, you can make a career out of being a server in Europe where as in the US its often looked at as a job for teens and college students trying to pay the bills (and it generally is). I do know a handful of career servers in the US and many of them are now working at high end restaurants and they make a killing. That's because once you've worked your way into a place like The Palms you're at the top of your game and you're working in restaurants that are at the top of theirs as well.

[TahitiNut]

87. (deleted - DU software glitch duplicate)

:shrug:

[TahitiNut]

88. I find that I have a strong preference for US restaurants with mature adult servers.

I tend to prefer the owner-operated restaurants with 'professional' servers, not 20-somethings just doing time. The casual dining chains typically have a 100% or greater turnover in servers and the 'professionals' are managers. If there are longer term employees, they're often in the kitchen not the dining room. I suppose it's not 'fair' for me to think this way ... since I worked as a busboy in a Stouffer's restaurant as one of my college jobs. It was HARD work.

I suppose it's a matter of customer demographics, too. The 'causal dining' industry caters to the 18-35-year-old customer base ... singles and DINKS. Thus, they tend to avoid being served by someone who might 'intimidate' them, I guess.

(Then again, of course, I prefer owner-operated businesses in general, not just restaurants.) :shrug:

[NeedleCast]

92. May not be fair but it's correct

I've worked at both owner-operated and chain restaurants and the turn-over rate at chains is astronomical. Its also very mercenary. It was always sort of funny as a manager looking through a stack of resumes, many of which looked like a whos-who of large chain restaurants with the applicant serving two weeks to three months at any combination of Applebees, Chilis, Ruby Tuesday, Outback, Borders, Cheesecake Factory, Olive Garden etc. etc. etc. Those applications went to the bottom of the pile unless I was desperate.

I've always said you can tell if a restuaraunt is good by the length that the staff has been there. Staff isn't going to stay if they aren't making money. That's why the owner-operated places tend to have server that have been there five, ten, twenty years.

You know what always killed me when I was traveling 200+ days a year on business...I always wanted to go find good, local cuisine. You're not going to find that at the chains. At Chilis, a chicken taco is a chicken taco whether it's in San Diego or New York. But you know, we'd be going to Seattle or Omaha or Cleveland and there'd always be a few in the group going "Ooooooo! They have a Cheesecake Factory here! Lets eat there tonight!" Because yeah, you can't find a Cheesecake Factory in the D.C. area.

Yeesh. I think I broke a few of them of that habit, but some people have no sense of adventure when it comes to food.

[paulsby]

126. people are ignoring another key difference

in france, and europe in general, people spend a MUCH higher %aGE of their disposable income on food, than in the USA.

the food is, on the whole, better. and they are willing to pay that premium.

personally, i am an extreme foodie, and end up making most of my own cuisine because i HAVE to.

delis in seattle, for instance - suck. so, i make my own pickles, and my own corned beef as well.

unfortunately, i do not bake, and it is nearly impossible to find a decent bagel.

i end up making my own kimchi, gravlax, and thai food, too.

people here in seattle have very uneducated palettes.

hawaii, otoh, is 100% the opposite. even the small mom and pops can be fabulous.

[Hippo_Tron]

158. Another key difference, they have national health care

Which means that they can spend a higher percentage of their income on food. And they get better wages because employers don't have to worry about paying "benefits".

[paulsby]

165. not necessarily true

they also pay higher taxes.

generally speaking, workers in the US have higher amounts of disposable income as compared to most european countries.

they most certainly do not get higher wages, when comparing similar professions.

you are correct that they have national health care.

compare my wages in my career for example.

i get a very solid income, my agency pays 100% of my medical (which is a phenomenal plan that covers chiro, massage, etc) , and i make significantly more, and have more disposable income than my french counterparts.

i also suffer no state income tax (merely a federal one).

i would, if i had the same career in france, make far less real income, and would never be able to afford the house i bought here. i would also be taxed at a much higher rate in my second job (self-employed futures and stock trading).

if you want to starT comparing the #'s, i'd be more than happy to. but i suggest you do a little research first, because your claim they get "better wages" is certainly not true, especially when one considers DISPOSABLE income

[DFW]

79. I'm down there two or three times a month for work

I can only confirm everything what the OP said, just add that it goes for most of Europe, not just France.

[lark]

81. Thanks for the post

My daughter is going to France for 6 weeks in a "study abroad" program. I sent her the link to this as I think it will be quite helpful to her.

[skepticscott]

82. We also loved our dining experiences in Paris

A couple of lovely bistros, Le P'tit Troquet and L'Affriole, a wonderful north African place, Le Souk, and the highlight, a four hour food orgasm at Le Grand Vefour. But every place was wonderful.

At several of the small places we went to that were fairly nice and required reservations, we noticed people sitting alone at tables for 30-45 minutes, just reading a book and having a glass of wine while they waited for their dinner companion. We found this a little odd at first (since people doing that would get the evil eye in this country), but we realized that in a Paris restaurant that is open maybe 7-10, they EXPECT people to take a couple of hours or so over dinner, and they don't count on having more than one party per table, per night. They're not trying to turn a table over two or three times in the course of an evening, and so don't give you dirty looks when you don't start eating within 15 minutes of sitting down.

We also found ourselves wondering whether so many family run places, where the husband is the chef, the wife is the hostess, and the kids serve, could possibly survive if there weren't universal health care.

I'd be very curious to know what their guidebooks say about dining practices in this country, for people coming to the US from France. They must find a lot of things about the way we eat out absolutely barbaric, among others the practice of shoving the bill at you before you've even finished eating (symptomatic I guess of the general haste with which most American dining is done). Eating out in the US must a severe culture shock for the French.

[mistertrickster]

89. Agreed. A lot of Americans think the French are "rude" when they are in fact

POLITE enough not to bother you with a lot of chit-chat and fake smiles.

ON EDIT--Okay . . . there was one chef who always scoffed at my French when I ordered, but, hey, it's their country . . .

[rhett o rick]

101. Many Americans expect servers to kowtow. The French won't kowtow to rude

Americans, and good for them. They won't kowtow to French either, probably not even to God.

A lot of behavior that Americans classify as rude are reactions from the French to ridiculous requests by the ignorant. If you respect their traditions and ways, they are very polite.

[rhett o rick]

102. Another thing. Americans some times think it is rude that the French don't understand English.

How arrogant, how pompous of the Americans not the French.

[frazzled]

90. Service compris

In nearly all French restaurants, a 15% service charge for gratuities is automatically added to your bill ("service compris" = "tip included"). It is customary to leave a little something extra for service above and beyond the call of dutiy. But if you're tipping 25% above and beyond the 15% included gratuity, no wonder you are getting great service on return visits!

Tipping rules are very specific in each country. We had a tough time during time spent on several occasions in Prague--where upon receipt of the bill you have to calculate what to us was a rather arcane rounding-up procedure. You never--NEVER--leave money on the table; and you don't add it in on your credit card. You must discreetly put the tip money into the waiter's hand.

[TahitiNut]

95. (I've also learned it's a good thing to read a thread before posting.)

I'm so glad there are folks eager to set me straight. If you look, you'll see this was brought up. I even used the subject 'Service compris' in my reply. But, golly, it's sure nice to be tutored.

:eyes:

[frazzled]

115. No, I didn't read the entire thread

But I read your initial post, and wondered why you mentioned nothing of the inclusion of tips in the bill, because it is the most important difference between our systems, not purported differences between French and American waiters. I lived in France, and believe me, there are shitty waiters there as well as superb ones here.

Your comment felt relatively rude. But I won't be so rude as to suggest your tone is lacking.

Oh, and why didn't I read every single one of the many posts beyond the first seven or eight, fine as they were? Frankly, there are more pressing things to do in life--usually I just get the drift of a thread, especially if it's long. Sorry to have neglected to make you the center of attention by following your every word.

[remedy1]

91. I'm in Paris right now...

I love this city!

[poverlay]

96. I would kill to trade places with you. I adore everything about Paris! n/t

[AllieB]

98. I'm so jealous!

Paris in the spring!

[TahitiNut]

100. Please ... when you next step outside, say "Hi, Paris! TahitiNut loves ya!"

San Francisco is my second favorite city in the world ... and Paris owns a corner of my heart. Dirty and sometimes difficult and traffic that's maddening ... it's just special.

Oh... traffic. I became a TRUE 'Parisian' that day in rush hour traffic when I - me, myself - formed the third line of traffic in the rush direction on one of the 4-lane boulevards. I'd always wondered how the traffic that was normally two lanes in each direction became three in one direction and one in another. I knew 'someone' had to be the first to pull into oncoming traffic ... the first brave soul to face-off the other drivers. So, one day, at the beginning of the rush hour ... I did it. I pulled left into the oncoming lane ... and VOILA! I could see dozens of Frenchmen follwing my lead in my rear view mirror and watched while the oncoming cars calmly and obediently pulled right into the remaiing lane. No fist waving and no yelling ... It was a "cultural moment!" (I was SO proud! It's like mastering l'Etoile!)

:rofl:

[AlbertCat]

93. What?

Sitting down and taking all night for dinner? and WALKING afterward??? Are you mad?

Dinner should be fetched without getting out of the car on the rush home from your second job so you and the kids can scarf it down in front of the TV because "American Idol" is on. Some lard sprinkled with sugar and salt will do....

[Name removed]

94. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ColbertWatcher]

97. And we in the U.S. say we have a service-based economy. k+r!

I think a few American companies could learn a thing or two about valuing employees.

[rhett o rick]

99. I agree. I learned that when you dine in Paris it is supposed to be an experience. The servers are

in no rush because the French are in no rush. Sit down, have a glass of wine, chat, maybe order maybe wait. They may not even bring you a menu until you ask. Take your time. They expect you to be there for a couple of hours. Because they are in no hurry, they might not serve you in the order you arrived. I remember an ugly American getting upset because someone else was served before them. The server was mystified. What difference did it make? Relax and enjoy.

Also, dinner is served late because the food for diner hasn't arrived at the restaurant. Many restaurants have very small kitchens and don't store much food. The meats and produce arrive like an hour before diner. Can you spell fresh?

The servers don't bug you all thru diner but keep an eye on you. When you finish a course they are there. Also, they won't bring your bill until you ask. They don't rush you along like here in the States.

I love Paris and can't wait to return.

[jeffrey_X]

105. I agree and disagree having just spent two weeks in Paris.

Agreed about the fresh food, ingredients and passion for food.

I thought most places we visited were understaffed. I wasn't expecting quick service as I know it is customary to enjoy all the facets of your meal from beginning to end. I just thought the waiters were just okay in terms of their friendliness.

Also...isn't 19.6% gratuity automatically added to each bill?

[DrZeeLit]

106. I agree! J'adore Paris!! My fondest wish has always been to live in Paris for about 3 years.

I have never experienced anything but kindness, courtesy, and compassion from Parisiennes.
However, I have always always strived to be kind, courteous, and compassionate myself.
I never presume; I never make demands. I am a guest in their country.
I savor the differences. I do not expect anything to be exactly like it is in the USA -- why travel if you want everything "just so"?

Vive La France!

Step on Pont Zero, in front of Notre Dame, and you will return.
I can't wait!

[ulysses]

107. c'est bon!

:hi:

[AlexDeLarge]

109. Thanks for bringing back some old memories!

I can remember eating in Paris, but also many countryside restaurants as well. I can attest that although the French may not be the best at everything, they are the best at food. Even in the most remote village's most inconspicuous shop, the food was light years above almost anything in the states. I have to think that's it's because they don't have the sterilized, overly processed foods we do. They believe in FRESH! I just wish there were more markets in all places where you could stop on the way home and pick up something fresh to cook. Instead, we get the Safeway or some such super 'market'.

As Julia used to say, "Bon appetite".

[northofdenali]

111. K&R TahitiNut -

There are a handful of restaurants I'll even bother with locally - and I can guarantee that does NOT include McDonald's!

[Joe Fields]

112. Thanks, Tahiti Nut, for the insight.

I've never been to France, so I appreciate the feedback. I do know that here, in America, you won't get that type of service, unless you are patronizing an expensive restaurant, and then that is no guarantee.

I know about such things, because my family was well enough off to be able to eat out often, all while growing up. As an adult, I've worked at numerous restaurants, in many different capacities, from dishwasher to GM. It would be magnificent, if cooks, chefs, wait staff could pay that close attention to patrons.

[noiretextatique]

116. i am thinking of thanksgiving at our friend's house

can you believe it's been 8+ years now? :loveya: too bad you moved away, because i've had many wonderful meals with her since then. thanks for the great information. i never made it to paris, but i did spend some time in italy and greece, and the food was wonderful. i hope to make it to paris next spring, and i know who i need to talk to before i leave, :hi:

[TahitiNut]

129. You bet. I tell folks about that Thanksgiving and how much I enjoyed the company ...

... and that marvelous stuffing/dressing Cassandra made. OMG! My mouth waters when I remember that. I sure miss you guys ... but I'm glad as hell I got to spend the time with you I did. I get a fond smile on my face when I think of Cassandra's passion and intensity and holding on for dear life as she drove up to the city for the protest march that September day I first met her. We sure had a GREAT group that day. I wallowed in it. Big time.

[Lena inRI]

118. My gastronomic European contributions...1958-1999

Liquor:
Continental cuisines(French, Italian, Spanish, Hungarian. . .)are superior to most American/British /Irish fare because Continentals see wines, aperitifs, digestives as FOOD, not only part of a numbing, cocktail-hour, so pairing and enjoying the food-drink and food takes time and well-timed service.

Wine as food is so ingrained that both I, as a teen, and later my children were always served wine or beer without question in France and Italy since with food, there is hardly any drunken teen problems in these cultures. Here restaurants plan most of their profit from selling cocktails, food being almost an afterthought, hence a drinking age since certainly ANYONE could get sloshed before they even order food.

Ambiance:
Best advice for Americans traveling to France/Italy is not about tipping etiquette; rather remember to speak softer at your table, and never yell across the room. We are ruined by American restaurants that think it's cool to have blaring music or a talking moose(Bugaboo Creek), and that it's acceptable to allow clanging dishes from busboys spraying tabletops as you're still eating right next to the spray.

Food freshness-portions:
Fresh ingredients are paramount for Continentals but what floored me was even the Autostrada cafeterias in Italy have a guy waiting for you to make made-to-order pasta or grill a bistecca con contorni. In fact, oftentimes, my traveling family would take the Autostrada, not to go somewhere, but to eat alla caffeteria! Here, I would grudgingly face a Denny's where even the coffee is so weak, you need several cups to stay awake at the wheel.

Finally, for Continentals, the bigger portioned-meal is mid-day, not dinner as here. Makes sense to eat less later before sleep when eating big just before sleep really adds the pounds. The French in particular are slimmer because they have ingrained more sensible eating portions and timing.

*************
It's so hard for us Americans to stay above our mindless, consumer culture to enjoy the simple pleasures of good dining. . .we're surrounded 24/7.

Hey,in a way, this thread is like a support group. . .LOL. Thanks for letting me vent!

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[TahitiNut]

128. The liquor even includes a version of Alka Seltzer ... it's called Fernet Branca

I learned about it on a "morning after" when I was really feeling the miseries. A French acquaintance looked at me and said "Fernet Branca" to the waiter. He brought it. It smelled like turpentine. Even worse, it tasted like turpentine. But it WORKED! Within about 15-20 minutes, my hangover was gone! Poof! My stomach was settled and I was fit as a fiddle and ready to go. Astounding.

[davidwparker]

119. thanks for the post. love things french but have never been there. someday

I will go there.

[unpossibles]

120. this makes me want to return

J'etais une boulanger (Français et Italien) depuis huit ans.

I miss it, but not the hours. But I do have to say that in Europe, a good baker is a very respectable job. Here... not so much.

ps - my French is really rusty so please forgive mistakes above.

[maxsolomon]

121. so they never ask "are ya still workin' on that?"

i. do. not. work. on. my. meal.

[MrsBrady]

122. food and music are respected in Europe...

here, not so much.

A talented musician and chef here are treated the same as people who work at Burger King.
Working at Burger King should be a respected job, too.

You get my point.

[On the Road]

123. Traditional Service is a Rare Treat

It is really hard to find in the US. Dining out is a whole experience, and a gracious and attentive staff can really make the evening.

I took my daughter to Paris when she was eight. (I can't really afford doing this every year, but insist on it anyway.) Children are not as common in Parisian restaurants, so Angie was kind of a novelty. We had a couple of memorable meals:

One was at a medieval all-you-can-eat place on the Ile de St. Louis, with help-yourself sausage carving blocks, fill-it-your-own-clay-picher wine casks, roaming musicians. Doesn't sound very Parisian, but it was great under the circumstances. We sat next to an old couple who invited us to their home in Portugal.

On another occasion, Angie didn't know what to order, so I looked over the menu and suggested what I thought were andouille sausages. I ignored the fact that the word was andouillette, and was unaware that it means "intestines" in French. Angie looked helplessly at her dinner when it was served. I would have exchanged, but I had steak tartare and she didn't like raw meat. I tried to explain in broken French that I thought it was "une saucisse de New Orleans." They were very nice, took it off the bill, and I left a huge tip. We walked to a McDonald's on the next block for her dinner.

[TahitiNut]

127. "Our Ancestors Were Gauls" (but in French) is the medieval restaurant on Isle deSt. Louis I went to.

Wine in huge casks and baskets of crudites and trestle tables. Fun!! It was a real kick. Not something for everyday, but a truly unique experience. It's also fun to walk around Isle de St. Louis and peek into the inner courts and wherever you can peek in .... some VERY pricey digs there. It's the "original" Paris ... city of mud people .. along with the Isle de Cite.

I also made the error of getting andouillette at a small restaurant in Fountainbleu. Yikes! That's just not something my palate was ready for. (I love steak hache or steak tartare, though.)

[Mass]

136. I really dislike andouillette too, but a lot of people like it.

I love tartare too, but still have to find American people who like it. Most people I know do not even want to try, because they have heard so much about the fact that undercooked meat is bad for health. (My husband is the exception). I have the opposite problem. I cannot eat well done meat, which makes me avoid steak in American restaurant.

I love the old Paris. It is one of the things I miss the most: old cities. Boston has some nice places, but I feel very lost in newer western cities. I find there is something missing.

[TahitiNut]

140. I remember the first time I had steak tartare ... it was in Detroit.

It was a bar/restaurant where several of us often gathered after work in a kind of "Algonquin Round Table" discussion group - not really the typical "Happy Hour" types. The owner suggested it to me when I indicated I was hungry but wanted something 'different.' He assured me that if I didn't like it he wouldn't charge me. What he brought out was a mix of chopped (not ground) marinated steak, fresh diced tomatoes, fresh chopped onion, a raw egg, a bit of vinegar and some olive oil ... a kind of "meat salad" that was his own spin on steak tartare. I cringed. But, nothing ventured nothing gained, I tried it. I loved it. It's almost the same as the first time I had GOOD nigiri sushi. Yum! (We miss a lot by not trying things.) Needless to say, he sold me ... and I was a regular.

[XOKCowboy]

153. (We miss a lot by not trying things.)

So true my friend. So True.

[On the Road]

164. Best Steak Tartare I Ever Had

was in a steakhouse in Caracas. It also had the most wonderfully professional traditional service.

The Serbian Crown in the DC area has a veal tartare that is to die for.

[On the Road]

163. Haha -- That's Great!

I can't believe you went to the same place and also made the same menu mistake.

BTW, I just dug up the photo last night and found that name is actually "Nos Ancetres Les Gaulois." Even found some photos online:

[TahitiNut]

166. That's the place! I think it's a "must do" for anyone. As I recall, there were two ...

... restaurants on the Île Saint-Louis with the same 'rustic' theme, but Nos Ancetres Les Gaulois seemed to be the premier. I'll remember that basket of crudites 'til the day I die.

:rofl:

[kestrel91316]

125. I tipped 20-25% when I was in France (not just Paris) - in large part

because the service was, almost without exception, FABULOUS.

[TahitiNut]

130. Yes. I didn't spend nearly as much time in Germany, Belgium, and Switzerland but ....

... found the dining experience there to be terrific as well. Switzerland just blew me away. No litter. None. Grass that grew right to the edge of the road. The cows didn't have flies ... but they had bells. (The music of cow bells in mountain passes was GORGEOUS.) Freshly painted homes and everything maintained like a picture book. Every meal was impeccable.

[GentryDixon]

132. Their coffee and croissants are magnificent.

[TahitiNut]

141. Petit dejeuner ... nice way to start the day.

Lunch at the company cafeteria was a 90-minute relaxed meal ... with wine or beer. Thus, I always started the day with cafe au lait and croissants. I was told (and I believe it) that Americans got the worst coffee ... after Europe bought the best beans. Most Americans make their coffee as barely-flavored hot water. I never had a bad cuppa in Europe .. anywhere.

At one hotel in Belgium (Hotel Amigo in Brussels) the morning coffee service (in the room) included those little creamer cups with the peel-off paper seals ... with one difference. Instead of plastic, the little cups were chocolate! Boy, did I love THAT!

Ahh.... memories. Good times.

[GentryDixon]

143. My favorite part of eating on my trip through Europe was the mornng

coffee or tea, rolls & cheeses.

[Mass]

133. After this thread, I will need to go cooking some nice French meal.

[TahitiNut]

142. Make a side of pommes souffle and I'll be right over.

I loved those magical little potato pillows ... better than fries or chips, for sure. :rofl:

[Dirigo]

145. The Incredible French

How 'bout just madeleines and coffee! Great pick me upper in the later afternoon.

[lilyreally]

138. Thank you!

I will be in Paris three weeks from today and I very much appreciate the advice!!

Feel free to offer any other tidbit that might be valuable. I'm all ears!

[TahitiNut]

148. I'd suggest the Bateau Mouche dinner cruise on the Seine. We sat outside on the rail ...

... and enjoyed it enormously. Yeah... it's "touristy" and won't be quite the level of quality and service of a restaurant. But it's FUNKY and fun. Most folks sit inside (tourists under glass) but if you can be comfortable in the nighttime chill on the river, I'd say try a table along the rail.

[lilyreally]

150. Great idea...

This will be my third time in Paris in the past five years and the first two were a week each, only enough time to just get a quick feel of the city. The food was wonderful everywhere but the restaurant I remember most was a place called Arthur's in St. Denis. Best food and dessert I've had in my entire life.

We did the river cruises each time, but never with a meal. On your recommendation I will try it!

I especially enjoyed rue Montorguil (don't remember if I'm spelling it correctly). Very narrow little street in Halles, fresh produce markets, wonderful food shops, including Stohrers, which is best known as originally being owned by Marie Antoinette's baker; many of the original pastries and cookies are still made there daily.

Thanks again for the advice!

[Dirigo]

144. The Bistros & Cafe's of Paris France

Thank you, TahitiNut. I love Paris also. I was there 2 years ago. I took the high speed train from Waterloo station, London, to Paris and thoroughly enjoyed the beautiful city. I can't imagine Europe without Paris. What you said is accurate and doubly nice because you appreciated the French palate. I can't wait to get back there again. Bon apetite!

Incidentally, I was in French Polynesia, Tahiti, Huahini, Raetea, Bora Bora, Moorea, and even Roratonga in the Australs. I think you will agree though French they don't have the same food and quality.

[TahitiNut]

147. Clearly, the excellence of Parisian restaurants hasn't reached Tahiti ... BUT ...

... the fresh pineapple and coconut and the South Pacific breezes and sunshine made it an easy burden to bear.

:silly: ... and the grace and innate good humor of the French Polynesian people sure made it a joy.

[kaygore]

149. But finding a vegan meal in Paris is HELL! Not so in the UK, though.

[XOKCowboy]

152. I really don't doubt that.

A vegan shouldn't go to France for the food. It goes against everything that good French food is. Fine French cuisine came about by taking the scraps the bourgeoisie left to the poor and making them taste good. That was mostly the offal of pigs, cows and sheep for protein and what they could grow for anything else.

I'd hate to be a vegan anywhere in Europe.

[kaygore]

167. It is very easy being vegan anywhere else in Europe

especially London and Italy! The UK and Italy are very progressive and very accommodating. The French are not...when it comes to food...even in Asian restaurants in Paris which is ironic as the Asians by and large do not eat much meat and anywhere else in the world I can get a vegan meal at most Asian restaurants. Also, as you note, the French are very big on fresh produce but they don't seem to cook that produce without butter, other animal fats, or meat. I did find a wonderful Buddhist restaurant near my friend's apartment and would eat one meal there and buy enough take out to last me until I could get there again.

[XOKCowboy]

168. I do feel sorry for you....

Asking the French to cook without butter? Horrors. :) I am sorry that you'll never have the culinary satisfaction that comes from French cooking. I applaud your choice though.

[Hekate]

155. How lovely to read this. A prof I worked for told me how he actually wept over an omelette...

It was kind of awe-inspiring -- you don't necessarily think of mathematicians (a string theorist, actually) having that kind of depth. He'd been in Britain for awhile and went over to France on a flight that brought him in too late to get a regular restaurant meal. Wherever it was he ended up, they made him a simple omelette. He said he couldn't help himself -- after the first bite the tears started to roll down his cheeks. Concerned, they asked him whatever the matter was, and he told them he'd been in England for X amount of time, eating British food. Oh, the instant understanding of his plight!

I have never been to either country, though I want to. And I really want to dine in France -- especially after reading your post.

Hekate

[opihimoimoi]

160. Most of our meals on a European trip (58) were tasty and well received cept for London

The Poor Brits....I hope they have improved....high on show but low on taste.

Paris was a treat.

I only remember Le Follies....ahhh the sheer beauty of the show....matches their food down to the bread...

Eating in Japan in old style restaurants was an experience I had over several trips to 7 cites. Awesome dining but so expensive...no tipping ....not allowed...even refused.....once we had a lady chase us down to return our tip....I was amazed....

Excellent thread Tahiti....appreciated

[geckosfeet]

161. Fascinating insight into another culture. Thank you!

It makes you wonder why people say that the US is where everyone wants to be.

[omega minimo]

162. Great Piece TN, kickin you to Page One

:yourock: