What should Obama do about the Somali "pirates"?

[kentuck]

Should he just ignore them and let the military and the Defense Dept handle it? If he gets personally involved, will that simply give them a higher profile and more notoriety? Should they just let them sit in the water for a few more days and think about it??

Or should they do what the right-wingers are screaming should be done? "Blow them the hell up!", Mark Levin says on his radio program. Should the captain of the ship be collateral damage in a quick military action? Isn't this similar to the Iranian hostage situation under Carter, they ask?

Is this President Obama's first real test with a foreign policy crisis? Can he outsmart the "pirates"? Can he bring some more "pirates" into the negotiations and then arrest and capture all of them? Or should he simply let them go for the release of the ship's captain? What should the President do in this situation?

[Vinca]

1. After they get the boat captain back, they ought to confiscate the boat.

Without the pirates. Do that a few times and it might have an impact. I hope pirates can swim.

[bighart]

48. so you support the death penalty for kidnapping?

[Vinca]

75. Their pirate buddies are already on their way to the scene.

They can hitch a ride back to wherever they came from.

[kentuck]

2. How about send some divers under the boat..?

and punch a hole in it? They could dive from the side invisible from the pirates. I'm sure the Navy has this capability.

[Democracyinkind]

5. Sure, but are they willing to do that on a weekly basis for the next 10 years?

[cali]

3. This is really heating up and has all the makings of Obama's first real crisis

overnight, Phillips jumped out of the lifeboat and was recaptured, and then there's this report:

Pirate ships converge on US hostage at sea


Associated Press Writers – 15 mins ago

NAIROBI, Kenya – Escalating a dramatic Indian Ocean standoff, more U.S. warships — as well as pirate reinforcements with an international gallery of hostages — rushed Friday toward the spot where four Somali bandits are holding a U.S. sea captain aboard a drifting lifeboat.

The pirates apparently fear being shot or arrested if they hand over Capt. Richard Phillips — captured in a failed effort to seize the Maersk Alabama on Wednesday — and hope to link up with their colleagues who are using Russian, German, Filipino and other hostages captured in recent days as human shields.

U.S. Central Command chief Gen. David Petraeus said U.S. warships also are headed to the area, more than 300 miles (480 kilometers) off Somalia's Indian Ocean coast.

"We want to ensure that we have all the capability that might be needed over the course of the coming days," he said.

<snip>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090410/ap_on_re_af/piracy

More hostages are being dragged into this. I don't know anything about this stuff, but I wish it was possible for Navy Seals to rescue the captain.

[mountainvue]

41. Jesus Christ. These idiots want to have a

stand off with the US Navy? They are out of their fucking minds. The fact that the USS Boxer, which is a fully medically equipped ship, is heading their way should tell them that the US is prepared for the worst possible outcome in this situation. We ain't playin'. I don't see any positive outcome for the pirates. They are painting themsleves into a corner in this already no win situation.

[FailureToCommunicate]

57. "1st real crisis for Obama"?? Really? Seems like reversing many years of BushCo

disasters was his "first" crisis, and he has been dealing with many big ones since Jan 20.
This is just the latest M$M distraction: Look, pirates!! Over here, shinny keys!! Look look...

[KharmaTrain]

4. Is Obama The Only One With This Problem?

Methinks we need to stop thinking that only America can solve the world's problems. Or that the only problems in the world that matter are those that involve American interests. These pirates have been operating for years...a symptom of the breakdown of international law and the complete breakdown of any national or civil order in what was once Somalia.

Short of spending millions to put marines or navy seals aboard these ships or running some kind of Armada along the coast, this is an international problem...one that should be addressed by every country that relies on those shipping lanes. It requires finding out what's going on inside of Somalia (not an invasion), and to either negotiate or isolate those who support the pirates and to punish those countries that help provide the arms and materials that allow those pirates to operate. No one operates in a total vacuum these days. Nor should the US be the policeman of the world. Haven't we learned that lesson yet?

[mountainvue]

44. This cargo ship is flying the American flag.

The other hostages on the other pirated ships are said to be from Russia, Germany and China. The Chinese don't have a navy to speak of but if I were a Somali pirate, I don't think I would want to piss of the Chinese...or the Russians and Germans for that matter. As someone else said, this would be a good time for the U.N. to step in. Whomever is running the show in Somali pirate land must not know what kind of international incident they are about to create here.

[KharmaTrain]

46. Interesting Radio Report...

I think it was via the BBC that delved into the problems pirates have been presenting in that area for years. This is one of the rare occasions where American were involved. They reported how navies of several countries...UK, France, China (yes, they do have quite a navy now), India, Russia and other countries have been trying to patrol those sea lanes but that the area off the "Punt Coast" (where most of the pirates reside) is so vast and their size so small, it's like an elephant trying to stomp out ants.

Most of these incidents end peacefully as the company pays the ransom and crews are told not to resist as most are bonded and the insurance companies end up picking up the tab. These bands are very small and amazing how they are able to board these ships. They're very good at the element of surprise and the companies feel the costs of paying the ransoms far outweigh the additional expenses of adding security or risking losing lives or cargo. The price of doing business...and in the end, the consumer pays.

The area of Somalia where many of these pirates reside is known as "Punt" as in the biblical area. It hasn't been under the control of Mogadishu since 1991 and the area is in remote regions that make it difficult to launch any military actions. Hopefully we've learned a lesson or two about Somalia since '93...but then we'll see.

[CTyankee]

62. I hear what you are saying but in this instance, the pirates are holding hostage a U.S. citizen.

And ransom from private sources has been forthcoming in the past. We need to put an expert negotiator in touch with the pirates (I understand they have a radio). And after this is over we need a new plan to protect our own citizens. Obviously, Bush sat on his hands and did nothing. Now we don't have that option. But you are right that we could use a little help and not solve the whole thing ourselves...

[KharmaTrain]

67. This Is A Bit More Complex...

Think of this as a residual of the Somali adventure set forth by lame-duck Poppy Bush. Somalia's last national government disolved in 1990 and the country has been a clan state ever since...no national authority and even less international contact. Piracy has been a way of life in this region for millenium as it's right at the center of some of the most heavily traveled shipping routes. There's a part of this piracy that is much culture as it is for money or any political purpose.

I like the concept of having negotiators rather than soldiers aboard these ships, but a lot has to do with the lack of any real central authority or government in that region. We're only learning about it now because our myopic corporate media only looks at these parts of the world when they involve our interests...then the pundits become instant experts.

Cheers...

[Brazenly Liberal]

6. This is NOT a "foreign policy crisis." He should stay out of it.

There is no foreign policy element here. These pirates are not in it to make a political point. It's how they make their living. Period.

As horrible and all too often tragic as kidnappings are, the President of the US cannot start interceding. If he does, the number of kidnappings that ARE political will abruptly escalate.

Edit to clarify: I am not saying or implying this is a legitimate way to make a living. Someone told me it sounds like I am saying that. I'm not.

[cali]

10. Oh, yes it is. Or it soon will be.

attempted hijacking of an American flagged ship is international waters is absolutely a looming crisis, particularly as the pirates are holding an American citizen and given the context. You're fooling yourself if you think differently. And all you have to do to realize what kind of a looming crisis this is for the WH, is listen to the utterances out of the State Dept.

[Brazenly Liberal]

15. Bullshit.

It is appropriate for the State Department to get involved in any problem involving an American abroad. That's a very different thing from Presidential involvement. The White House cannot - and does not - intercede in every situation the State Dept. handles.

This is a criminal act, not a political act. Presidential involvement would politicize the situation and immediately paint targets on Americans abroad.

[cali]

16. you can delude yourself from not until whenever but that won't

change that this is a looming crisis for the WH, adn duh, the WH and by extension the President, are already involved. This is a military operation. Now who do you think is CiC? This is absolutely political.

[Brazenly Liberal]

21. Please. Talk about self-deluding!

"by extension" LOL! By extension, he's involved with the fact that my garbageman is late today, what with being President of the country in which that garbageman operates his truck and all.

Yes, sweetie, EVERYTHING is political and EVERY act undertaken by EVERY agency that reports to Obama includes his PERSONAL involvement. And he's too dumb to realize the foolishness of getting mixed up in this. Riiiight. That's why he has refused to even comment on it.

I don't have time for silly arguments like this. Get yourself in a lather with someone else. Buh bye!

[karynnj]

29. As CIC he controls the Navy,

Your garbageman either works for your city or a private company that your city gave a contract to.

[cali]

32. more and more ridiculous,

pumpkin. Wake up, sweetums. What part of this is now a military operation and Obama is the CiC, isn't penetrating your skull? And do take a look at the MSM coverage, genius.

[karynnj]

28. Do "the shores of Trippoli" ring a bell

That was a foreign crisis then, this is now.

[Historic NY]

34. Exactly.

[Mike Daniels]

31. My guess is this set of pirates (if they get out of this alive) are going to catch hell

This group fucked up their gig big time. If anything it shows that these boardings can be stopped and it's going to be harder for other pirates to carry out further operations w/out the likely use of force.

I know that the shipping companies are content to pay off the ransom (it's cheaper than hiring private security or arming your ship) but I think future crews may have other ideas.

[qwertyMike]

43. That crew

reminds of the folks who went for it all on 9/11, you know, the ones who died in a field in PA.

"Let's do it"

[Uben]

7. Kill em!

They chose their destiny. Don't leave one alive. If you let them live, they will do it again tomorrow. Promise them anything to get the capt. back, then kill em.

[kentuck]

11. Are you a "liberal"?

:-)

[qwertyMike]

45. To every thing

there is a season.

Pete Seeger, The Byrds and Ecclesiates 3.1 (sp?)

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
=========================================================================
Hey, I'm quoting the frickin' bible!!

Some good poetry in there.
Well it IS Good Friday and Passover.

St. Mike

[ecstatic]

39. Interesting...

:shrug:

[RedCappedBandit]

55. Yeah, god damn fuckin poor people deserve to die. nt

[cali]

64. I completely disagree with the poster you're responding to

but these are very unlikely to be poor people. Furthermore, grab a clue and stop denigrating poor people.

[RedCappedBandit]

65. So, what makes them turn to piracy?

We exploit the natural resources of the entire world, leaving local populations with nothing. Hence, they are poor, no? People tend to do whatever it takes to eat when they have nothing.

[cali]

68. well, let's see. It's profitable. And yes, Somalia is a c omplete mess

to what degree the U.S. is responsible for that is certainly debatable, but the unbelievably stupid knee jerk crap you're tossing out is simply the mirror image of the freeper rah rah America pile of shit. I'm always amazed that people on the left can be as moronic ans people on the right. I shouldn't be, but I am. Congrats on that, dear.

[RedCappedBandit]

72. I have to wonder if they would risk their lives to feed themselves if

there were a valid alternative

[cali]

73. up til now, the risk has been very minimal

they've been doing this for years, and they've raked in hundreds of millions. So yeah, probably they would do it.

[RedCappedBandit]

74. Helping to alleviate the poverty in the area

is the best solution imo. People don't do crazy shit like this unless they feel they have to.

[sattahipdeep]

8. Shoot Em up

These people always prey on women and children like cowerds.

"We are safe and we are not afraid of the Americans," one of the pirates told Reuters by satellite phone. "We will defend ourselves if attacked."


Phillips, the captain of the Maersk Alabama, had offered himself as a hostage

"Our friends are still holding the captain but they cannot move, they are afraid of the warships. We want a ransom and, of course, the captain is our shield. The warships might not destroy the boat as long as he is on board."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/10/somali-pirates-hostage-us-m

[sattahipdeep]

79. Congratulations,President Obama!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[tekisui]

9. Offer them safe passage for the captain.

Then capture them, once we had the captain, and sink any motherships.

Treat those who survive, then try them. Say good riddance to the others.

[hlthe2b]

12. He should load up all the loud mouth REPUGs

and ship them over as his special "envoy" team, trade them for the Captain and then do the RW bidding if they are still screaming to "blow them the hell up.." :eyes:


He is personally involved behind the scenes. This isn't just a bunch of rogue pirates. They are sanctioned by the Somali government and that has to be taken into the equation and I'm sure there are major high level discussions ("come to Jesus discussions") behind the scenes. To date, they have not harmed any of the hostages they have taken over the past couple of years from a variety of countries. The big mouths stand a big chance of changing that equation.

[kentuck]

14. Excellent idea!

We will trade you Mark Levin, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity for one ship's captain. Just for good measure, we will throw in one Bill O'Reilly!

[kentuck]

13. Do we know how many "pirates" operate along the coast?

Why not attempt to get them all together and capture them for all the world to see? Of course, the pirates are no fools. They will hide behind hostages and women and children to protect themselves. That is a given.

[BlooInBloo]

17. In general, addressing the root causes of it would be a good way to go....

Somebody here posted an article about those root causes a few weeks ago - can't quite recall enough of it to give a link. :(

[ShortnFiery]

47. Amen! Thank you for one voice of reason.

Many vessels have been dumping radioactive toxic waste along with OVER-fishing within their 12 mile border.

Hell, this is a job for Xe (Blackwater). Let the corporations who own these vessels hire MERCs is one possible short-term fix?

[Mike Daniels]

52. And this ship was 350 miles outside of their waters.

So the pirate's justification for capturing this ship is what? Sure doesn't seem like they were dumping or fishing or doing anything else related to the justifications these pirates offer.

[mountainvue]

76. They were bringing aid in the form of food.

I believe one of the beneficiaries of this aid was going to be Somalia.

[RedCappedBandit]

56. Thank you for bringing some rationality to this discussion

[Stinky The Clown]

18. These are not sympathetic people with a somehow just cause. They're fucking criminals

They're kidnappers.

They take hostages for ransom.

They live like Columbian drug lords.

They deserve no sympathy.

[HelenWheels]

38. I do have sympathy for them

Other big countries came and fished out their waters and that was their livelihood. They don't go on the ships and gun down a lot of sailors. These are pretty poor people and are looking for a way to feed their families.

[Stinky The Clown]

71. That's fine to think about the Somali people. But these pirates are .... well .... pirates.

Really. They are. They kidnap people. With guns.

They have an American hostage right now. They have had hostage the nationals from many other countries, too.

[mikeytherat]

19. What should Somalia do about it's pirates?

:shrug:

mikey_the_rat

[kentuck]

20. I don't think there is any government in Somalia?

to speak of.

The pirates and hoodlums run the show.

[Marrah_G]

22. There is no government in Somalia

It is a collection of warlords fighting between themselves and raping their own lands and people.

If the world doesn't help stabilize things there then the extremists like the Taliban will seize control.

[ThomWV]

23. Pirates do not, under any circumstance, constitute a "foreign policy crisis"

Foreign policy deals with nations and our place in the world of nations. These are common criminals and in the general scheme of things of little to no importance at all except just like torturers and wire-tappers if you don't stop them as soon as you know about them they will just continue to practice their trade.

[tekisui]

25. Without being a nation, and lack of the effect of our place in the

world of nations, the political risk of destroying them is lessened. IMO, they should get the Captain back, under any pretense, and then capture or kill them, along with others they can find.

[karynnj]

26. Actually they DO create a foreign policy issue

Do you remember "Not one cent for tribute" and "Tripoli" from your HS US history class? You even say "if you don't stop them as soon as you know about them they will just continue to practice their trade."

It is a foreign policy crisis because it affects many countries and a coordinated policy might be needed. The Chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee has said there will be hearings on this - so he obviously things it has foreign policy attributes.

You do realize that your definition also fits OBL.

[HughMoran]

24. Not exactly a "crisis", but the pirates made a big mistake

We'll give 'em some time to get good and tired/hungry and then make a rescue attempt if they don't come to their senses. After we end the standoff, it's gonna be a lot more dangerous to be a Somali pirate.

[mercuryblues]

27. never listen to a neocon

The pirate reinforcements are carrying hostages from other countries. This is a crisis. Instead of dealing with 4 pirates holding 1 hostage. We will be dealing with several boats of pirates with over 50 hostages, from different countries.
We will have other countries and their opinions to take into consideration.
This is turning into a no win scenario. If the American is freed but not the the others, detractors will say "why didn't they get the others freed" If the pirates are able to go with the American, well you can imagine the outrage. If a rescue attempt is made and hostages from other countries are killed. This can undo a lot of what has bees accomplished the last few weeks in foreign relations. If the American is killed the detractors will say "He should have waited them out"
The only way I see this from reaching critical mass is to get the American out BEFORE the reinforcement pirates arrive. Hopefully they will turn away.

[kentuck]

30. Don't you think....

They must of shat their pants when that big gunship pulled up close to them? :-)

[Raskolnik]

33. This would be an excellent opportunity for the U.N. to get off its ass and actually do something

constructive, but I'm not holding my breath for that to happen.

[Mike Daniels]

36. Well the UN has already said that there is no "territorial water" when it comes to pursuing pirates

In effect, there's nothing that says you can't enter Somalian waters to pursue these guys.

The UN basically gave a green light so I think it's up to those countries who've had their ships threatened to work together on a solution.

[Raskolnik]

37. If only there were an existing, multi-national organiztion already set up that could coordinate

an international response to this. If only.

Yeah, giving the "go ahead" is about as productive as one would expect the U.N. to be on this.

[CTyankee]

66. I wouldn't be surprised if the Obama admin. hasn't already got State Dept. people on this.

Since these are terrorist acts, we should have anti-terrorist experts brought in to combat them.

[Phoonzang]

35. Pirates aren't a US-only problem. The UN should do something.

Yeah....I know....the UN doing something. Ha.

[qwertyMike]

40. Blow up the mother ship

That's a good message.

That's my inner-repug talking.

I am ashamed ;)

[Johonny]

42. Hire them and get in on the action

[Renew Deal]

50. lol

:rofl:

[Phoonzang]

49. Slightly off topic: I'm curious, how often do these pirates actually kill someone? nt

[cali]

51. not often and they reportedly treat hostages pretty well

it's a tremedously profitable business. In the 12 months up to 11/08, they collected n the neighborhood of $150 mllion.

[Mike Daniels]

53. Which is the only reason they still operate without much international pressure

If this captain or any other innocents get hurt during this standoff my guess is the pirates will find things a lot rougher for their lot.

[RedCappedBandit]

54. Maybe we could stop raping the third world.

[cali]

58. Maybe the brainless reactive response that the U.S. is

to blame for virtually every bad thing that happens, should be condemned to the same extent that the reflexive bullshit that nothing the U.S does can ever be wrong. 2 Sides of the stupid coin. And dog, I hate stupid.

[RedCappedBandit]

59. I never said anything about the US

I said "we" meaning the industrialized world. And it is true, we're raping the third world.

[EFerrari]

61. That would be a good start. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

60. Bush would know what to do. He'd invade Bhutan.

[quakerboy]

63. Write a musical number and take it to broadway?

The Pirates of Somalia. What? I bet it would be a historic new thing for a president to do.

[leftofthedial]

69. I think he should find some wealthy Somali bankers and give them a few

hundred billion dollars.

Eventually that will "unfreeze" Somali credit markets and ease the path to borrowing by small businessmen like these pirates. We'll have to stay the course though. It could take several installments of a few hundred billion dollars each.

That approach is working well with the Wall Street pirates.

[cali]

70. stupid is as stupid does

sweetie, but do you have to demonstrate how poorly it does on such a regular basis?

[Joe Fields]

77. This is exactly what the administration should do:

The first Naval vessel to reach the scene should instruct the pirates that they have exactly sixty seconds to release the captain of the cargo ship, or they will be blown out of the water in sixty-one seconds.

[sattahipdeep]

78. What's up doc?

Navy SEAL snipers killed three pirates with single shots shortly after sailors on the Bainbridge saw the hostage-takers "with their heads and shoulders exposed."