What would I, a teacher, recommend to fix public education?

[YvonneCa]

My answer, cross-posted from the education forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=219&topic_id=12374&mesg_id=12933

Number One: Recognize that teachers are NOT the problem and stop scapegoating them. In 2001, under the Bush Administration's Education Secretary, Rod Paige, teachers (unions, specifically) were called terrorist organizations. For the last eight years, NCLB has done nothing but blame public school problems on ineffective teachers (probably because they prefer vouchers). There has been almost NO recognition for eight years of the job teachers do. The general public has NO IDEA what the job entails and our leaders have worked to make that WORSE for eight years. A better start would be a HUGE and LOUD apology to the teachers of this nation who have dedicated their lives to teaching kids. Most with little support, either financial or in respect.

Number Two: Ask teachers what they think, and make THAT public. What a difference that would bring! Much of the public and many politicians (who rightfully want to improve public schools) have no real idea of what is wrong with them. So they try 'canned solutions'...like merit pay...most of which are the wrong thing to do. JMHO. Merit pay is divisive...just like NCLB was. That doesn't mean it can't be a tool for improvement if done in the right way, but it HAS to be done fairly. Example: NCLB has good things in it, but it became bogged down because it used AYP to pit schools and districts and teachers against each other..instead of helping us to work together toward a goal we all share: Improving education for kids. I think ANY workable solution will require input and support from teachers...not just unions...teachers. In all the talk of fixing public education and schools...which I wholeheartedly support...the idea of involving teachers in this process is never brought up by anyone in a position of authority. I'm glad to hear they may 'rename' NCLB and start to include a 'progress' measure for accountability...but talk about putting lipstick on the proverbial pig. :7


Number Three: My reform ideas, with the underlying prerequisite that teachers MUST be involved in designing a program in order for it to be successful...

1. For teachers, stop demeaning them and start treating them professionally. Create career paths for them. Very few exist now, because teaching used to be a 'traditional woman's job.'

2. Integrate curriculum. Learning makes more sense to kids when connections to other knowledge can be made. We have lost that in the era of NCLB. And we can still keep standards to meet...just not in isolation.

3. Create multiple pathways/goals for students' graduation...all of them rigorous. Have it kick in at about age 10 or so...be flexible until age 12 (to be sure the child has made a good personal choice)...and then be the student's committed choice after that. Some kids may choose science/math, others may go into writing/journalism, others to a third choice. It's important to design these pathways well...for areas students will need to work in in the future. When they finish, they are job-ready or college ready...but THEY have some buy-in to their future goal (not just a goal decided on by the teacher or their parents).

4. Ungraded schools at the elementary level. As some have said here, mastery of concepts should be required to move on. It's WAY more complicated than that...but clearly passing kids from grade to grade does not work.


5. Find ways to involve parents in their child's education...ie. Student Led Conferences, Curriculum Fair, technology, etc. The list is endless.


P.S. I'd LOVE feedback. :)

[BlooInBloo]

1. 1) Eliminate the dominance of the so-called "education major"...

After that, do whatever you want.

[dsc]

2. I love the myth of the dumb teacher

I am not going to say that there are no teachers who have some problems with mastery of their subjects but that so isn't the problem in our schools. I have worked at many different high schools in many different places and very, very few of the teachers I met weren't coversant in the subjects that they taught. I will admit that I have met high school math teachers who didn't know say calculus or statistics but they weren't teaching those or even pre calculus. They were teaching algebra and geometry which they knew quite well. A lack of teacher knowledge isn't our problem.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. Why do people not in our business not understand that there is so much more to teaching

than being an expert in an academic area? If you can't get the attention of the students, you could be as smart as Albert Einstein but it wouldn't make a lick of difference.

[YvonneCa]

8. I know. My guess is that it's like when people told me...

...becoming a mother would change my life. I knew they were right, but I had no idea how profoundly it would change...not only my life...but me. ;) I 'get it' now that I'm a mom.

I think there are things about being a teacher that a person can't comprehend unless he/she has done it. Then the eyes are opened. :7

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. When I was in high school I had a science teacher who had written our textbook

I went to a private school and the school agreed to pilot this textbook she had written. She agreed to teach the class. She was brilliant. A scientist with a PhD in chemistry and another one in physics. You can't know any more about science that someone with two doctorates. And she was the author of the textbook we were using.

Worst class I have ever taken in my life. I learned NOTHING. The woman knew ZERO about teaching. We played. She would talk and we would just get up and walk around the room and ignore her. We went to the bathroom whenever we wanted and we even went outside and smoked cigarettes. One day we set the lab on fire. She gave us these little burners and passed out alcohol in plastic squeeze bottles. So we took the bottles and squeezed out FUCK YOU on the floor and BITCH on the lab tables and set it on fire.

This woman knew her subject matter well. But she didn't know how to make 14 year old kids pay attention and learn.

I think of her every time anyone talks about teacher competence.

[YvonneCa]

16. What a classic story! You made me laugh right out...

...loud. :7 Your story illustrates the difference between having knowledge versus having the skill to impart that knowledge to students.

That poor woman...she probably never knew what hit her. :7

[tbyg52]

37. >>there are things about being a teacher that a person can't comprehend unless he/she has done it.

From my perspective of having gone from military to business to public school teaching, I completely agree.

[Bill McBlueState]

49. right

Academic expertise is an absolutely necessary but entirely insufficient qualification for teaching well. This is why teaching is hard.

[fascisthunter]

65. why? Ideology...

political agendas

[ProfessorGAC]

149. There's A Happy Medium, That Isn't Explored

I've taught. My wife was a elementary ed teacher. I get it.

I've got three advanced degrees, and have teaching experience. I've been working for more than 30 years.

In Illinois, i'd need to take 60 hours (yep, 60 hours) of college courses to teach math or science. That's ridiculous.

There should be a much faster track to get people with the desire, the charisma, and the knowledge into classrooms, when they're willing to explore that career option.

There is a happy medium, i think, that is between being a pure education major and someone who has the desire and ability, with a background in the subject matter.

And, Einstein was a good teacher, albeit in college.
GAC

[YvonneCa]

150. Thanks for your post. The 'happy medium' you mention...

...is important. (Keep in mind that I come at this from an elementary education perspective.) I wonder if your alternative would be most relevant in middle and high school (?) although I think it should be fairly looked at at all levels.

I'd also like to the the number of 'hoops for current and propective teachers' streamlined. I don't know about other states, but here in California the hoops are numerous. :7 It's no wonder to me that people give up on their dream of teaching sometimes.

[YvonneCa]

6. I agree. Thank you for posting. Since I come at this from...

...an 'elementary school' level, I'd be really interested in hearing what you think is the most important step to fix high schools.

[Mopar151]

101. Engage the real world

Mathmatics need to be taught in context, not in the abstract. Calculus goes with physics, trig goes with shop class.
Stop treating vocational education as a dump for dummies. Work for economic justice, because its absence perverts education. Make sure that teachers and cirriculum developers understand the culture of work in their local area - and not just the suits in th office!!!
Understand that a degree without a purpose is a waste - like the entomoligist I know who paints tractors and drinks.
Put enough resources into guidance so that kids down't get blown off if they are not on the BS degree academic track.
Real-world on this one : When my pal told the guidance counselor he wanted to be a race driver, he was laughed at. A few minutes of thought, or talking to Bud, would glean that the "day job" of many race drivers is truck driving or heavy equipment operation. Today he is a wide-load driver for a prefab company - and if you think that's a job for slackers or dummies, your'e not paying attention!

[YvonneCa]

106. Lots of truth in your post. I particularly agree that math...

...HAS to be taught in context. It's the only way for students to make the required connections to really understand the concepts.

[ulysses]

35. if bloo says it often enough, it becomes the truth.

:silly: :hi:

[BlooInBloo]

44. Nah, it started off that way.

[Bill McBlueState]

48. I wouldn't want my kid's algebra teacher to not know calculus

A teacher should understand not only the content (s)he's teaching, but also several years' worth of content beyond that. Otherwise, how can the teacher put the material in context? How can the teacher mentor the more advanced students in the class?

[dsc]

60. One can mentor a bright algebra student without being able to teach calculus or statistics

and the context issue is a bit of a red herring. About 1 out of maybe 50 high school algebra 1 students will take high school calculus.

[Bill McBlueState]

81. I suspect it's higher than 1 out of 50

There were about 25 students in my high school calculus class, and there were 270 in my graduating class. If you assume that all 270 took algebra I, then 25 out of 270 algebra I students went on to take calculus. If not every student took algebra I, then it's an even higher portion.

So the fraction at my school was at least 1 out of 11, about five times more than your estimate.

I realize one case isn't sufficent for a great argument, but I went to a rural public high school in Ohio. No reason to believe kids in my town were atypically talented in math.

[dsc]

102. Note I said HIGH SCHOOL algebra 1

If you are taking algebra 1 in 9th grade you are behind for the purposes of calculus. We have algebra 1 in 8th grade and a seperate honors track algebra 1 at our high school level. Even the seperate honors track algebra produces very few calc students. The regular ones virtually none. We have one calc class of about 20 students (nearly all of whom took algebra 1 in 8th grade) and about 25 algebra 1 classes of about 25 each.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. How do you think tutors do what they do?

Or places like Sylvan Leaning Center? Surely you realize they can't have experts in every academic area available for those kids they tutor who need help in those areas. And what about substitute teachers?

Content knowledge is a plus but not a necessity. And the larger point is all the content knowledge in the world doesn't help a teacher who doesn't know how to teach.

[Bill McBlueState]

84. I'm not saying they need experts

Nobody needs a graduate degree in math to teach high-school math, but the teacher should have at least a few years' more education in the field than the students to be really effective.

A high-school math teacher should have (1) a college degree and (2) should have taken at least two semesters of math while in college. I'm not saying (s)he should even have a math minor; just one year of introductory college math at a minimum. Since introductory college math is calculus, the problem is solved.

And the larger point is all the content knowledge in the world doesn't help a teacher who doesn't know how to teach.

You won't hear me disagreeing with that. As I said upthread, knowledge of the material is a necessary but nowhere near sufficient requirement to be an effective teacher.

[dsc]

103. They have taken it

but often dozens of years ago and haven't used it since. I took Spanish 200 in college but I surely don't know Spanish.

[BlooInBloo]

124. The funniest part of it is that it's know-nothings who purport to have an opinion...

on what teachers should know.

:rofl:

You can tell how sorry the American educational system is, by reflecting on how hard teachers at a progressive website rail against someone who wants them to KNOW MORE.

Nobody fights harder for their right to be stupid than Americans. And teachers are gleefully leading the charge.

[sammytko]

164. i'm going to teach 4-8 math and i have to take calculus.

i think its a good thing.

[rhett o rick]

52. It isn't that some teachers are dumb, but that they don't work to their potential.

First let me qualify that I completely agree with everything in the OP. And that my experience with teachers is limited, but IMHO all working people need supervision. Most people will work hard but most also need a supervisor to help keep them motivated and on task. IMHO teachers work with out supervision. Most do fine but some struggle. And if you have a teacher that doesn't teach for whatever reason, that can mess up students badly. How do you take second year Algebra if you first year teacher didn't do their job. And I have seen teachers not do their job. They are not dumb but without supervision, with out standards, they must decide on their own what is to be taught and how to do it. Some give out assignments to be done during class time and then spend their time on the computer. Others allow misbehavior in their classes which disrupts the learning of other students. I could go on and on. The failure to me is the lack of supervision and the lack of standards. The administrators have no idea what is going on in the class rooms. They rarely visit, and when they do it is announced well in advance. And the administrators know that their hands are tied anyway. The strong teachers union makes it very difficult to discipline a teacher. Class behavior is a mess. I think the teachers are responsible for the class behavior although I know they need help. Strict rules for example. No food or drink in class. Some teachers enforce this and some don't. I think administrators need to spend more time helping teachers in classes with bad behavior students. I think administers need to help substitutes more also.

[MadHound]

66. That, right there, says it all: "my experience with teachers is limited"

That's apparent. First off, if you think that teachers aren't supervised, then you are absolutely full of it. Let me ask you something, do you have your boss standing by you all the time you're working? No, your boss, depending upon your job, generally comes by a few times a day to see how things are doing unless there is some sort of emergency. Your boss has their own work to do, so they rely on periodic checks, paper work, and the fact that the job gets done as supervision. The same is true in teaching. Administrators check out your lesson plans, wander by a few times a day, talks with you, with your kids, reads the endless paperwork that teachers have to fill out, and unless there's an emergency, they let teachers teach. Yes, the observations are announced, but if you think, with a room full of students, that you can fake happy, happy, joy, joy in a classroom, again, you're full of it.

And the school administrators aren't the only supervisors that teachers have to answer or please. Parents and the public at large not only keep an eye on what teachers are doing, but also make demands, many unreasonable ones, on teachers' actions and time. Let's just reference the whole evolution/creationism debate as one area where teachers get to be a political football. NCLB is another prime example. Oh, and my favorite, some parents are wanting cameras in the classroom complete with a web feed so they can constantly scrutinize what is going on in the classroom. Gee, what other profession do you get to have the public, which in general has a complete lack of expertise in the field of teaching, allowed to supervise, and even dictate to professionals? Hmm, would you want the public looking over the shoulder of your doctor, and demanding adjustments to his actions as he does your quad bypass? Then why is it perfectly acceptable for the public to sit and nudge the elbow of teachers as they work?

Your characterization of classrooom behavior and classroom management by teachers reflects the fact that your experience is "limited." I would be willing to bet large sums of money that you could go into 95% of the classrooms in this country and find that classroom behavior is, in no way shape or form, a mess. Are there loud classrooms, certainly, are there active bodies in classrooms, by all means, but this doesn't mean that learning isn't taking place. The days of kids lined up in straight lines, sitting and being quiet are long gone. The research, the pedagogy has guided education toward a much more active, and effective form of learning.

You talk about a lack of standards, and again your "limitations" are showing. Teachers have to meet standards set out on a local, state and national basis, year in, year out, no matter what. Standards designed by the local school board, standards designed by the state, standards set out by not just the federal government, but also national content area organizations(see the NCTM for an example of this).

Finally, I think you betray one of your real beefs with this statement, "strong teachers union makes it very difficult to discipline a teacher." Sorry, but it is ridiculously easy to not only discipline a teacher, but to get that teacher fired. Parents can do this, administrators can do this, school board members can do this, all with great ease. All the unions guarantee is that the teacher gets a fair (at least nominally fair) hearing. Ooo, those strong, threatening teacher's unions. And haven't they made sure that teachers are well paid too:eyes: Frankly I think that you're just another anti-teacher, anti-education, anti-union yahoo who had one or bad experiences in school and now feel free to bash the entire profession based on your limited and biased experience.

I have a proposition for you. If you think that teaching is so damn bad, do something about, go to college, go through the long hours to get your teaching degree. Get into the classroom and teach. Then get back to me about how bad teachers are. I think that you'll be surprised. And then you'll have enough experience to make an intelligent critique rather than some knee jerk rant based on your admittedly limited experience.

[rhett o rick]

67. I see that further discussion is worthless. nm

[YvonneCa]

72. Exactly. Thanks, Madhound for saying what I was thinking...

...about this post. I was too tired to respond. :7

[mike_c]

7. I disagree....

I say that as a professional educator-- university level-- who never received ANY training in teaching or education. All of my training was 100 percent in my various professional disciplines, i.e. biological sciences and mathematics. Now, at the midpoint in my career, I'm suddenly learning a LOT about education theory, teaching methods, and the like that I really wish I'd been exposed to at the beginning of my career, fifteen or more years ago.

Much of the research generating that knowledge occurs in university education departments, the folks that you'd like to shutter, or is conducted by educators who were trained by them. I've been amazed at the amount of information that research has produced. It has revolutionized my teaching. (On edit-- note that I have the academic freedom to teach just about any way I want to, within some limits of course, so I have been able to adapt my teaching as I've learned more-- that's a professional freedom that most K-12 teachers do not enjoy because they are constrained by school boards, administrators, and so on.)

There are real problems in U.S. education, so it seems to me that closing degree programs in education and shuttering education departments is a really shortsighted anti-solution, since that's where much of the concentrated effort to solve those problems EFFECTIVELY comes from. Legislative and administrative efforts to solve them have mostly proven not only ineffectual, but utterly wrongheaded.

[patrice]

12. Let us know if they ever teach you how to run a "gradebook".

I asked around the whole time I taught. Except with some discussion in classes that taught Tests and Testing, no one was EVER shown the various theories and practices that produce Grades.

[mike_c]

18. nope....

I've learned how to distribute grades, evaluate grade distributions, set up weighted grading schedules, and all the rest from colleagues or from books.

I hope you didn't misunderstand my response in this sub-thread. I was lamenting that I didn't learn any of the important elements of teaching as craft and profession while I was being trained to become a full time academic scientist, and that my teaching suffered as a result. I WISH I'd been better trained in teaching-- exactly the sort of training that blooinbloo (?) wants to eliminate.

[patrice]

28. No, I understood and I agree with you about that. I was just adding that point about grading.

I never found anyone who didn't just make their grading methodology up. No connections between educational philosophy, pedagogy, curriculum development, and grading. The whole thing is entirely piecemeal and the kids know it, hence a great deal of quibbling and pressure and the resultant 25 year grade inflation trend in this country.

I thought the education classes I took were useful to provide concepts for specific application in curriculum development and in figuring out what my own grading methodologies would be.

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. One of my professors in graduate school

told us we were more psychologists than teachers. So we had better pay attention when we were taught about the psychology of teaching.

Wise advice. And so true.

[patrice]

32. That's one of the fun things about teaching; it is applied Psychology.

None of those education classes make sense unless you have that frame for them.

This is also why so many people think they can teach, and they can't, because they have little understanding of human behavior and mental processes, formally acquired or otherwise.

[Bill McBlueState]

51. sure, that's worth doing

But it will only work if at the same time the traditional academic departments agree to (1) offer training in educational techniques and (2) provide career mentoring for those of their majors who show an interest and aptitude for K12 teaching.

The best teachers are experts in their academic fields who are also able and willing to make use of proven pedagogical techniques.

[MadHound]

57. Why?

A teacher needs to know not just the content area, but also how to teach, the pedagogy needed to get students to learn. Sorry, but despite the myths, the overwhelming number of people simply can't walk into a classroom and be an effective teacher simply knowing the content area. Hell, you see this problem in college, where somebody has multiple doctorates in some particular area, but can't teach their way out of a paper bag.

Also, most education programs that I know require that anybody teaching above the elementary level actually get what is, in essence, two degrees, one in their content area and one in education. Not to mention the fact that a teacher can't get below a 3.5 GPA in any education class. And if you think that education classes are fluff classes, I would put you in my past year of math methods classes, and would bet good money that you wouldn't make the cut.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. Your number one is so true

My school is the only one in a large urban district to make AYP every year since we began testing. But we have never so much as received a thank you from any administrator or school board member. They fall all over themselves berating the schools that never make AYP and they will praise the schools that make it after they have failed to do so. But for a school that does well every year, they do absolutely nothing.

It's as if they don't care that we are successful. That's not the point I guess.

Also as I am sure you know, there are programs and programs and programs for schools that don't make AYP. They have before and after school tutoring. They get bus transportation paid for by the feds so kids can stay after school to get tutored to do better on the test. One program pays teachers $85 an hour to supervise kids on a web based program. $85 an hour to watch kids surf the internet.

But if you do make AYP, you get NOTHING. Our kids can't stay for after school tutoring because they have no transportation. So we have only the school day to get ready for the test.

NCLB is HORRIBLE. It is obviously designed to prove schools are failing, not succeeding. 10 years from now the powers that be can claim they did all they could to help those failing schools and yet they still failed. And of course, they will never tell that they did NOTHING to recognize the schools that DID make AYP.

[YvonneCa]

10. It always amazes me that education systems...

...which know about things like positive and negative reward structures, intrinsic reward, and the affect of stress on student learning, are so incompetent when it comes to using similar strategies with adults in the system. Go figure. :)

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

5. I think it should be MUCH easier to throw students out

A friend of mine who used to teach in the LAUSD but now teaches at a private school found the largest problem she had to deal with was a small group of pre-dropouts, many of whom were already hardened gang members and criminals who did nothing but make a disruptive nuisance of themselves until they were ultimately incarcerated.

Not forcing public schools to serve as the N.A. Chaderjian Maximum Security Youth Correctional Facility waiting room would make a huge difference to teachers and students alike.

[patrice]

11. Agreed!! Have curriculum options. But teach the ones who WANT to be taught.

This would mean a change in school finance laws. But WHY, why, why don't we just say as a nation "We will support Education, period."

[YvonneCa]

19. What do we do with the ones who don't, but are...

...required to be given a 'free, public, education'?

[patrice]

20. There need to be curriculum/educational environment options, but those who don't want any of that

will require daycare until they reach their majority at which time they can get jobs. When/if they ever decide that they do want to learn, the system should be ready to let them plug into whatever they need, whenever they need it, so I guess that includes day/night-care for the children that they often have along the way to growing up.

[YvonneCa]

22. Really?????

???????

[patrice]

30. My basic assumption is that they WILL come to it, when they are ready, and after a certain

point, trying to persuade or lead them to it with options is useless for some, so we might just as well let them go, after we've run out of options. Most of them will come back when they're ready and there could be other tracks for those who never do.

[YvonneCa]

14. Great suggestion. A few students like that in a classroom...

...can make learning extremely difficult for the rest...and that's unfair to those students who want to learn (not to mention the teacher who wants to teach).

But...hopemonger that I remain :7...since I want all kids to get a public education, I would like to see an alternative program for those kids. Designed by teachers like you and me, who have extensive experience working with these kids. I'd even love to teach them...but in a program really designed to deal with their needs.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

17. I wish I were more optimistic

I hate to believe that anybody is completely worthless but i'm just not sure how you teach somebody who has decided that they want to be a criminal.

[YvonneCa]

21. I've had a few students like...

...that. It's sad. Sometimes they are like that at 11 or 12 years old.

I always say that they are still children, so they're not allowed to decide that yet...but the truth is they need more than just what a teacher can provide. They need a whole new approach, IMO. Like a camp...take them out of the current environment/school situation and rebuild their lives.

And that costs money. Sad.

[patrice]

33. I think they and their parents should be put on the spot. Frequently

asked to choose amongst sets of appropriate options with clear collaboratively defined systemic consequences: "If you want to continue to avail yourselves of whatever 'benefits' you are deriving from this system, you need to make a decision about A, B, C. A will make D, E, F possible. B will make G, H, I possible. And C will make J, K, L possible. If you cannot, or refuse to, make a decision about A, B, C, you will be referred to alternative system 1, 2, or 3 all with the same collaboratively defined planning. I know someone is going to yell "Oh, the horrors of Tracking!!!!" but if there are enough resources and enough collaboration, the tracks can be chosen autonomously.

[patrice]

9. Agree with most of this. Re multiple-pathways & rigor in #3:

Multiple-pathways, to me, would be created in educational malls, open year round, from 8a - 8p.

I don't think attendance should determine $upport. The schools should just be there, with a variety of appropriate curriculum options, for whoever shows up, WHEN-ever they show up, no matter their age.

There should be whole libraries of tests/assessments available, with SME support, for students, families, and other stake-holders to select from and assessment should occur whenever there's a substantial question about a student's apptitude or progress.

Rigor #1: There should be an ongoing discussion of standards amongst all stakeholders with the objective of arriving at as much concensus as possible all of the way from the Grassroots to the Federal government. This means, of course, that at least some benchmarks will have options, but the important the important thing would be to create some degree of unanimity about all of it.

Rigor #2: We also need some degree of unanimity in the Grading process. This will also require public discussion of various acceptable methodologies and options. Evaluations should be authentic, wieghts should reflect the full spectrum of a students strengths and weaknesses: STOP this BS about teaching kids (only) in a manner appropriate to his/her "learning style".

Parents should, indeed, be involved in every aspect of this, collaboratively, with a voice proportionate to the concrete responsibility they have demonstrated. Just as other elements of education are assessed for their merit, so should parents be.

[yellowwood]

15. Nintendo Learning Games or Something Similar

Not every skill needs to be taught by teachers. Have you ever watched a 2nd grader try to reach "the next level" on his Nintendo DS? He will spend hours at a task, willingly. I think that learning games could be developed that would be engaging enough to teach "skills," such as basic math. Of course, there are other tasks in the curriculum that would benefit from a human teacher and the interaction between teacher and student. A good thing about games is that they are not judgmental. One either succeeds at reaching "the next level" or not. We utilize technology for everything else, why not more education success?

[YvonneCa]

25. This is already available and being used, although...

...probably not in all districts. In the district where I work, students use computers every day, and there are programs that actually TEACH math and reading skills. They don't do everything, but they are a great tool.

I agree with you that technology needs to be in place everywhere.

[nbsmom]

53. I've often thought the same thing myself.

Watching how 8 and 9 year old boys will spend hours with Nintendo (Wii or DS and now DSi), playing Pokemon games (and they can tell you in detail what every Pokemon evolves to, etc.), it often makes me wonder why these aren't learning games. Imagine if instead of learning information about an artificial universe these kids were actually learning about biology (or biotech?) I know that my 9 year old happily 'plays' on his math website whenever that is part of his assigned homework...shouldn't someone at EA being working on this?

[YvonneCa]

73. Fear not. n/t

[timtom]

23. Great stuff!!

This issue has been on my mind since 1961. I am not in education, but see the flaws in our system. Teaching the quadratic equation to non mathematicians! Bah!

[YvonneCa]

27. Thank you! n/t

[timtom]

26. And this is an answer...

(Please note the comment about bullying.)

http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/pages/freedom.html

[YvonneCa]

144. Interesting...

...where is it located? UK?

[Mike 03]

29. Awesome Post. I can't understand why there are so few rec's for this one.

I'm not a teacher but the people in my life that I owe the most to are my teachers. Also, Jonathan Kozol, who writes so eloquently about the crucial nature of teachers and how they save lives every day, and how much they suffer to practice their trade, has influenced my thoughts on this topic greatly.

But the most important thing is to hear from the teachers.

As I've written here so many times, plainly and simply:

Teachers saved my life.

Teachers gave me hope.

Teaching is the highest art and the most honorable occupation, IMO.

[YvonneCa]

31. Thanks, Mike 03. I always appreciate...

...your positive posts about teachers. :)

[Mike 03]

36. If I could do more I would. Your post is the kind of post I've been hoping to see for a long time

Would you consider turning into an article/editorial and maybe posting it here, because it's so sad when a thread as important as this one--even if it gets a lot of recs--sinks after 24 hours.

Nobody in this world is in a better position to know what teachers need than teachers.

It's scandalous that they don't have more say in current events that dictate the future of education.

Keep up the great work!

Mike

[femmocrat]

34. Proud to K&R #5

Your ideas are all excellent.

I would just add one: Instead of cutting art, music, and phys. ed., actually offer more of those opportunities. Not every child is going to be a mathemetician or scientist or even have the inclination to apply themselves to those subjects. The arts offer different ways of learning and it is often surprising how many "learning support" students will excel in non-academic subjects.

I don't know what happened consideration of "learning styles" (visual, auditory, kinesthetic) or to "right/left brain" theories, but these modes of instruction have fallen by the wayside in favor of rote learning and memorization for the tests.

[Telly Savalas]

39. Even if every child were to be a mathematician or a scientist

art, music, and phys ed make them more well-rounded people. Moreover, by training what may be their relative cognitive weaknesses, it probably helps make them more effective people.

[YvonneCa]

41. Thank you so much! I agree with you about increasing...

...the arts, music, P.E., etc. in the curriculum. When I mentioned the creation of 'learning paths' toward an employment goal, I would hope that at least one path would be ideal for the child interested in a future goal in those areas. All children have strengths, and the learning paths would need to be built inclusively...including the arts, sports, vocational ed., etc.

[Starry Messenger]

38. Great post YvonneCa.

I'm in my third year of teaching at a high school so I don't have a lot of insight into how to tackle these large questions. I appreciate these posts by the seasoned teachers at DU.

My own issue with teaching at high school is that it seems to last too long. I have a lot of bored 18 year olds mixed in with 14 year olds and it's always a challenge making sure that everyone feels they are feeling treated equally and fairly. I teach an arts elective, so they can take it at any grade level. Hilarity can ensue at times.

I would like to see the arts supported more in all grade levels. :) Most kids love it and you can learn a lot really quickly with hands on projects. On my first day as a teacher one of the core teachers told me that I would probably get students who "can't handle a rigorous curriculum". I'm sure she is more the exception than the rule, but I was surprised that someone would actually say that out loud. A) It isn't true, and the arts are rigorous B)I must really suck at life if I got a Masters in Ceramics!

Oh well, more funny than helpful, I just wanted to get that off my chest. :D

[femmocrat]

40. Fellow art teacher here!

:hi: and :hug:

It's funny.... sometimes the students ask me, "Did you have to go to college to be an art teacher?" One problem with the higher-level academic students is just scheduling. It isn't that they don't want to take art or music, they are just over-scheduled with their college prep coursework. There are only so many periods in a day, unfortunately.

[Starry Messenger]

47. Hey! It's a fun job, huh!

:hug: back.

I feel bad for the kids who are so scheduled in, too. They have such long days! At least we get to see them relax a little! :)

[maryf]

95. Another Art Teacher here!! (and ceramics master)

This year a kid said to me "I have to think harder in this class than any other" made my year!! Another said "I thought art was easy but I really learned how to draw a lot better..." (one of my worst students there...)

[Starry Messenger]

105. Oh cool maryf!

Maybe we should start a thread in the Art and Artists group at some point. I wonder how many other art teachers there are here...I think I've seen a few other posters mention it in passing.

[maryf]

135. pm me if you start one!!

I'll do the same for you!

[YvonneCa]

42. Thank you. I appreciate your insight AND your sense...

...of humor. :7 Thank you, too, for what you do as a teacher. As an elementary teacher, I think you must be a very brave person :) to teach high school!

I have a question...

Do you think the boredom is 'senior-itis' ? Would it help if those students had earlier access to college? (I know some take AP classes...but should we graduate them in three years instead?)

[Starry Messenger]

46. Some of the boredom is helped by earlier access to college.

The local JCs do a lot of partnership with the schools for the mutual benefit of all.

I think some of the boredom is definitely senioritis. They have jobs, they're almost done with high school and a lot of them are waiting to hear from college. They are tired of being around the younger students. I wish they could have some kind of transition class where they learn more life skills that would benefit them out of high school. They could learn how to keep a bank account, turn on their utilities, balance the budget, plan meals...all the stuff that can trip you up your first year of college when you are not living with the parents. That might hold their interest, too. :)

High school is a challenging age. I like the age group because they've developed a weird sense of humor by then. :D Some of the at-risk kids can be kind of feral but usually respond well to trust and respect. It's frustrating when you can't do anything for them outside of school, if you know their home life is irregular and the parents don't take an interest in the kid. I just try to plug in positive reinforcement where I can and create a safe space in the classroom.

I also wish we could afford to feed them more at school. Teens are incredibly crabby when hungry! A lot of them get rations of detentions and inhouse for "attitude" and defiance that sometimes I think is caused by not eating all day. If we could support their physical needs a little better, I think more would rise to the opportunities at school.

[YvonneCa]

50. Your suggestions are really great! I appreciate...

...the response. I asked my question because one of my daughters (now grown) always talks about how bored she was in high school...and that she was ready to be on to the next step during her senior year. She said she felt like she was just 'marking time.'

It just seems to me like ...if we want kids to advance at any level...we don't have time to waste.

[Kerrytravelers]

43. My idea comes after seeing and experiencing first-hand direct abuse of teachers.

The following is not in regards to special needs students:

I think parents need to be held legally responsible for their children's behavior. If you kid can't control themselves (hitting, biting, spitting,) the schools will provide support. However, if you don't accept the help or don't follow through, then the teacher, support staff that has worked with your child, school psycs, principal, district representative, etc. will be meeting with the parents in a family court-like setting with a family court judge and, if necessary, LEO and, in essance, an IEP will be help in which the parents will be legally bound.

I don't know where this would lead, but something needs to be done. As a teacher, if I knew that all my documentation on the meetings with the parents where they don't show up, nasty letters they write me and phone calls they don't return would come in handy, I'd not feel some hopeless maintaining such notes.

[YvonneCa]

45. You make a really good point. I agree documentation...

...systems on students with behavior problems needs to be tightened up. A way to save those letters, phone messages in the system that could be part of family accountability would really help. Inter-district cooperation would also help...I've kept all those records, only to have the family go to another district and start the process over.

This documentation should be done systemically, by support staff...to support the teacher, IMHO.

[Kerrytravelers]

138. I've had students just disappear, only to find out they've changed districts, too.

I have called that district and have sometimes been able to speak to the new teacher or principal. They are *usually* receptive. I've emailed/mailed/faxed notes to them. The child clearly needs help, and the sooner issues can be brought to the surface, the better. My notes may not be binding in the new district, but it is a good heads up for the new school.

[YvonneCa]

141. I've had that happen...

...too. I'd love to see better inter-district communication.

[JerseygirlCT]

61. I agree with this as a parent

Out of control and badly behaved (and I'm not talking about kids who speak up in class in ways teachers might not like, lol!) kids are not only dangerous to their teachers, but to the other kids.

That was one good thing about a parochial school education: that exit door was always open, and could be used. And you wouldn't be seeing a tuition rebate, either.

[Kerrytravelers]

139. I've had classrooms with students so violent and out of control, I'd have never wanted my own child

in the class. And the parents of some of these children could care less.

Not all the parents. Some were working with me, but for the ones that were fighting me, the support staff, the administration... why should everyone else suffer?

[YvonneCa]

142. I believe in educating all kids, but their needs are not...

...the same. I'd love to see a strong curriculum to deal with those violent, disruptive (non-special ed.) kids that would involve their families in the program. At this point, I think those kids need to be out of the regular classroom.

[Catshrink]

71. I see opinions about holding schools, teachers, and students accountable

but NOTHING about holding parents accountable for the behavior, attendance, and effort their children make in the classroom. Next year during open house, I plan to talk not about my expectations for the kids but my expectations for the parents: your kid needs to be in class, your kid needs to turn work in on time, you child needs to prepare for tests, your kids needs to respect the right of other students to learn, etc. and you are responsible for seeing that this happens. Please dont' take your kid out of school for a week to go on a discretionary family vacation -- that sends a message that school isn't important. When I call to discuss a behavior issue, don't tell me you don't believe me -- why would I waste my time calling you if it were't so?

[Kerrytravelers]

140. I absolutely think that all involved should be held responsible.

I use to have that same talk with the parents at open house. Some decided right then and there I am the enemy. Two parents even demanded their students pulled from my classroom because I expected them to be responsible. It is remarkable, just remarkable to me. I documented documented documented all year long. But in the end, it was a big waste of time, because these parents knew that they could do whatever they wanted. And it was terrible for the children and families who care, because so much time is wasted in a classroom that isn't set up to deal with families that don't care. They need a smaller room with qualified support staff. My GE class with no aide was not appropriate placement. But without a Special Ed classification on the kids, there is nothing that can be done.

[YvonneCa]

143. Thanks for your post. I agree there needs to be...

...a separate program for those kids that don't qualify for special ed, and that can't handle a regular classroom. They deserve to be educated, but these days it's at the expense of the other kids in the classroom. This needs to be addressed in reform.

[lostnfound]

54. Have you ever taught Montessori?

I was so pleased with the level of independence and mutual respect that was inculcated in my son's Montessori class (ages 3-6). Likewise, the Montessori grade schools that I visited seemed to have similar advantages. The fact that kids spend time as a newcomer to a class with a 3 year span of ages, and later feeling a sense of pride to be the older one showing the younger one how to do something, seemed to discharge some of the unhealthy social competition that can be so mean in single-age classes. And I worry about the effect that the traditional classroom environment is having on his ability to be independent -- he now seems to be waiting for someone to tell him to do something, instead of deciding for himself what to do.

Unfortunately, public Montessori elementary schools are rare, and private schools are so expensive.

[YvonneCa]

74. No, I have only visited a couple of times. I DO think...

...educators should borrow what works as we re-invent public education. Thanks for the post.

[yellowwood]

55. Sports

Another change that I'd like to see in education is that I'd like to see "sports" separated from the education system. In many/most schools, from junior high through college/university,way too much money and attention is diverted toward sports programs. If a community values sports so much,let that value be served through a park district where it belongs.
And don't kid yourself, sports do not "keep kids in school." Compare the number of kids who "make the team" against the student population. Only a small percentage gets the recognition. What keeps the other students in school?
I once heard a speaker on "giftedness" suggest that scholars should get special privileges: special jackets, cheering sessions, extra tutoring, etc. When the audience groaned that it was undemocratic and unfair, the speaker revealed that he was being sarcastic, that these honors were already part of the recognition of athletes.
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against sports; I just think that they should be separated from the education process.

[YvonneCa]

75. I agree with every word. It IS a hot issue...

...politically...in some states.

[JerseygirlCT]

92. Well, I certainly don't like the "tryranny of the athlete" atmosphere

that permeated HS and too often still does - as you said, the recognition, the awards, the special time with teachers (to keep grades up since they're spending too much time at practice). And I think other kids with talents ought to be similarly supported. Bugs the crap out of me that our HS's winning football team gets lots of resources, but the robotics team (also really good) has to raise something like 60k a year just to fund themselves. Which one is likely contributing to the kids' academic success?

And the other problem, of course, is that far too many adults (outside of coaches) are too invested in these teams - to an unhealthy extent. The kids just become the means for them to exercise *their* desires.

But I've also seen kids who did straighten up and start paying attention because they wanted to stay on a team, or because the attention they were getting from the adults (coaches, etc.) made the difference in their perception of themselves and their idea of personal responsibility.

I think what we're likely lacking is balance. And I think the problems are exacerbated when the schools get too big - kids who stand out on either end of the spectrum: the smart kids, the talented kids all the way to the really troubled and troublesome kids get the attention. All those kids in the middle somewhere... they stay anonymous and too often are treated as non-entities. These may very well be kids with something special to contribute - but no one will ever know, because the schools are too big for someone to find that out.

[YvonneCa]

107. "I think what we're likely lacking is balance." Your words...

...hit the nail on the head.

[MadHound]

56. Nice post, good suggestions

I would like to some: Start funding education like we actually mean the rhetoric that is out there stating how education is one of the most important jobs, one of the most important priorities in this country.

Put teachers' pay on par with doctors and lawyers, certainly better the MBA's. Start fully funding each and every school like we mean our rhetoric, this means fully functional buildings, buildings that don't leak, labs that are modern, buildings that aren't crowded and have functioning heating and AC.

This would attract the best and the brightest to the profession. I don't know how many times I've seen a bright, personable student who has considered teaching, but then looked at the funding issue and moved on to something else that pays better.

Stop the testing madness. We have two weeks of standardized tests here, the MAPs, each and every year, not to mention all the prep work that goes up to it. In some grades and cases, other specialty tests are piled on, the Stanford 9, etc. This can rachet the total testing time in a school year to a month, not including prep time. One whole month of instruction time out the window, gone. Stop the madness.

Take the funding of schools out of the hands of the public. Throughout my life, time after time I've seen a dedicated core of anti-intellectual, anti-education people able to block any new funding. Since a super majority is needed to pass education bond issues(odd, but only education bond issues), this group doesn't even have to rustle up a majority to defeat the bond issues, but just one vote over forty percent. Time and again, they manage to pull it off.

I think that these changes would work wonders. I would love to see them implemented.

[YvonneCa]

77. Great ideas! The funding issue is paramount. All the time...

...we hear politicians talk about how a budget reflects our priorities. If that's true about education, then what our past budgets demonstrate is that, as a country, we DON"T value our kids and education. It's time to 'walk the walk.' Thank you for saying so.

As to the testing issue, I also agree it's madness to test at the level we have been under NCLB. Here's my most recent post on the testing issue:

Under NCLB, the testing has become all-consuming. It leaves little time to teach.

If the only test given was for NCLB...once a year...I'd cheer. But, in my county, tests are given three times a year...in reading, math and writing...to be sure state standards are met...in addition to NCLB. We start the school year...we test. We get to Christmas...we test. We return in the spring...we do test prep and test NCLB. After NCLB, at the end of the year...we test again. That's what I mean. And anyone who has taught knows you don't just test one day...you have all the hassle because kids are absent/makeups, etc. And then ther's the focus on scoring.

Teacher energy needs to be on the kids and teaching. JMHO. And, to add insult to injury, the data is used unfairly. Example:

At the start of a new school year, student A reads at 4th grade level. By year's end, student A reads at 6th grade level. That's two years of growth, and it is easily tested. Let's say student A is in a 4th grade classroom. The teacher does well, both on growth...and currently on NCLB. That's because NCLB wanted that student to read at 5th grade level by the end of the year...target met.


Now, take student B. At the start of the school year, student B reads at 4th grade level. By year's end, student B reads at 6th grade level. Again, that's two years of growth and it's easily tested. But student B is in a 6th grade classroom. The teacher has done well on growth...two years. But the teacher is 'iffy' on NCLB, because the target is 7th grade level (ready for middle school).


And then, take student C. At the start of the school year, student C reads at 4th grade level. By year's end, student C reads at 5th grade level. That's one year growth, and it's easily tested. But student C is also in a 6th grade classroom. The teacher has done okay on growth (one year for one year of instruction) by the student can't meet the NCLB target of 7th grade. That teacher is PUNISHED by NCLB.

That is the part that is unfair. And many excellent, dedicated teachers in underperforming schools are being targetted because of it.

Another example:

Let's say there are four second grade teachers. Every one of them produces an average of 1 to 3 years growth in their class of students. But they are very different as teachers...one complains about *certain* students placed in their class every year, another teaches 'GATE' students (and they get averaged into the total class improvement), another regularly takes kids the others don't want because of a belief that you work with students as they come to you, etc.

Thanks to the current focus on 'data' and 'results' (which does have a place) at the end of the year, these four teachers get a number (data) showing average growth of their class. IMO, data is important, but it is ONE measure of each teacher. Remember, ALL these teachers added value. ALL these teachers are good teachers. But administrators...under great pressure as 'at-will' employees...see this data. Some (really bad ones) make the data public by handing it out at staff meetings. This pits one teacher against another when we should all be working toward the same goal.



Data is a tool...but only ONE tool. Anyone who has taken a class in statistics will tell you you can twist data to make a case for anything. That's what has changed under NCLB...successful teachers who help their students grow are NOT rewarded, they are punished because sometimes even 3-4 years growth is still below standard.

[cmd]

58. Great ideas and I love ungraded primaries

It's a waste of time for kids to spend a year in a classroom where they are failing. Move them to a level where they can succeed.

[YvonneCa]

78. It also supports the appropriate teaching focus...

...to help individual children. Thanks for the comment. :)

[JerseygirlCT]

59. I don't understand concerns about merit pay and it being divisive

Being paid for the actual work you do, and offered more pay when you do more is quite common in the workplace - why should we be concerned about treating teachers like others? What's divisive? Divisive are the lazy teachers who get paid according to time served and give a black eye to all the hardworking ones by doing so. Divisive is teachers being treated as less than top-notch professionals because of these bad eggs, who are then supposed to be paid the same as the hard-workers.

Teachers are adults, and can certainly understand that those with better skills and better attitudes and dedication deserve better pay, IMO.

[ulysses]

62. the issue is in how "merit" is determined.

The students by whose abilities my performance is judged have, by definition, a disability of some sort. Additionally, I'm in my fifth year teaching in a Title I school, so my kids come from "economically disadvantaged" (which is to "the poor" as "collateral damage" is to "dead civilians") backgrounds.

Is there a way to *fairly* measure my merit as these kids' teacher relative to the merit of a teacher in a wealthier area who teaches kids who have no disabilities or are above-average achievers? Probably. Do I have an inherent trust in politicians to put in the work to *find* that way, and not simply fall back on standardized test scores? No.

[JerseygirlCT]

68. Yeah, that wouldn't work. But peers? Administrators?

Parents, even. There's got to be some way.

[ulysses]

76. potential problems with all of those.

proud mentions the issues with admins below.

I'm not trying to be difficult with this. I've worked with lots of peers, admins and parents from whom I'd love to get an evaluation. I've also had perfectly horrible admins (like the ones a few years ago who were actively trying to kick my special ed kids out of the school in order to raise test scores, and who came after me when I kept calling the central office about it) and currently have two parents who think I hate their kids because I won't let the little darlings constantly disrupt the class.

My biggest objection to merit pay, though, it that is presupposes that teachers are the primary problem and that we would do our jobs if our pay depended on it. So we can implement merit pay and go happily about our business while the host of other issues that negatively affect public ed in America (and which are much harder to address) continue to fester.

[YvonneCa]

79. "My biggest objection to merit pay, though, it that is presupposes ...

... that teachers are the primary problem and that we would do our jobs if our pay depended on it." EXACTLY. And that presupposes that we (as a group) are NOT doing our jobs now...which is untrue. It's an insult to me and all the teachers I know. Could there be a few 'lazy' teachers...yes, and they should be gone...but to generalize about ALL teachers is just ridiculous.

[JerseygirlCT]

88. Well, coming from a parent

There is that perception - despite the many excellent and dedicated teachers - all it takes is one bad one to poison minds, you know? Unfortunate, but true. And those bad ones, it seems, continue on - why? Union rules, fear of litigation, I don't know. But yes, for the teacher's sake as well as the students, those who do the job well ought not to be doing it.

I think you'd be surprised perhaps, by how many parents DO understand how hard you work, and how dedicated you are to our kids' education. I know it's a job I couldn't do justice to - thus one I have not ever considered taking on! But I truly think more willingness to set high standards and then weed out those who can't or won't do the job would make life better for everyone.

And I think those wonderful professionals who take their work very seriously ought to be treated and paid better!

[YvonneCa]

90. Thank you. Perception is not always...

...reality. But I understand it is out there. Maybe teachers need a PR rep? :7

Thank you for your kind words.

[JerseygirlCT]

93. Ack!

Not another layer of bureaucrats, lol! (Can you imagine?)

They likely need the supplies and freedom they need to do their best job more...

[YvonneCa]

104. I know. I was...

...just kidding, sort of.. ;)

[ulysses]

98. the reason I've seen at least one carry on,

well after it was obvious that she'd retired on the job? There wasn't anyone to take her place. Literally. Very low-performing middle school in downtown Atlanta, special ed teacher on top of that - she'd been there forever and no one was breaking down the doors to step into her classroom.

When we, as a country, start openly *valuing* teachers (and I'm not saying that you, JerseygirlCT, don't!), we might be able to get some new blood in classrooms like that, but while teachers are openly derided, teachers like her will keep being a barely-warm body in the room.

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. Determining the skills is the problem

Some of the best teachers I have worked with quit the profession after being bullied by a bad administrator. Asking those administrators to decide who gets a pay raise and who doesn't is simply unfair. And I think we have all explained over and over why using test scores is not a good idea either.

Good teachers want to be held accountable. But when that accountability comes attached to a pay raise it is going to be hard to come up with an objective way to determine who gets a raise and who does not. Our jobs are hard enough as it is.

[JerseygirlCT]

70. Sounds to me like there's a big roadblock - and that's

bad administrators. (And I know - we've got a whopper at our HS here). So perhaps the whole thing needs to start there?

If you had good and skilled and caring administrators, then it would follow that they'd be in a good position to judge the teachers' work - along with others, of course. But yes, when you find bureaucrats at the top of the structure, the whole thing will suffer.

[YvonneCa]

82. In defense of administrators...

...I know, I know...why ??? :7

I think it's important not to paint ALL administrators with a broad brush, either. There are MANY good administrators who do their best to work with teachers to educate children in their districts.

NCLB also put great pressure on administrators to meet AYP goals. Most administrators are 'at-will' employees, which means they would lose their job if goals were not met, which meant they did what they had to to reach AYP. In some cases, they resorted to harassing teachers (bullying them) to make this happen. JMHO as I am a witness. :)


I am an educator. So are most administrators. We HAVE to work together to fix our system. THAT'S why I feel so strongly that teachers...not just unions...have to be heard. I also think GOOD administrators should be involved.

[JerseygirlCT]

87. Oh, I know

And yes, good teachers and good administrators are key. I'd go so far though as to say that good ones should be involved, and bad ones shouldn't be in the business!

It's hard to separate out all the differing, and sometimes conflicting interests. I assume the good ones keep what should be the prime motivator in front of them: educating our kids to the very best of their abilities. And of course, the bad ones stick out more - the bureaucrats who are so deeply into their ruts they seem to have completely forgotten the kids.

(The situation that most sticks out from my son's former HS: suicide at the school. Not the first death for this group of kids, either. Most recent in a spate of car accidents, ODs, etc. The school's reaction? A PA announcement that grief counselors would be available. Then no one - not a principal, not a teacher, except one, very new, very young teacher said a word to the kids about it (maybe she was too young to "know better"?). As if it never happened. I was astounded. Back in my HS, we most likely would have spent a good part of the day together in the auditorium, and talking to adults about what had happened, and consoling one another. The principal just didn't even get herself out from behind her desk and into the hallways to see what those kids needed. Still rankles, years later. No amount of paperwork should ever take precedence over those students in your charge, you know?)

[YvonneCa]

89. We're in agreement. That story is so tragic...

...about the suicide.

That administrator shouldn't have been there. JMO. In some of my education classes, we discussed the requirements for a good principal and the number one requirement was 'relationship building'...among staff, students and the community. That principal didn't lead. He/she took the 'safe' route rather than making a choice to support the kids and tell the staff to do so. It's cowardly. Good prinicpals stand up for their school community...the kids, the staff and the parents.

[JerseygirlCT]

94. Yeah, it really got to me

These kids were suffering. And to hide rather than face it was just terrible. It should have been one of those times when the community was brought together and treated like a community. But as you say, when the leaders don't lead...

(I've joked with one of our middle school principals - he was a teacher not long ago, and still, like the energizer bunny, runs drama programs at both of the middle schools) that he and a VP at the school ought to stage a peaceful takeover and get rid of that HS principal. He laughed, but he knew JUST what I was talking about... The teachers know, the other administrators know... Can only imagine what that does to morale.

[YvonneCa]

108. I hope one day...soon...they will stand up for what is right. Take a risk. n/t

[NC_Nurse]

69. As a member of another traditionally female profession I agree with much of

what you are preaching. The BIGGEST frustration for those of us in these jobs is the lack of input WE have in our
work environment. And the lack of respect is a real morale killer.

People love to bitch about bad outcomes, but they don't want to listen to the reasons behind them. It's easier to scapegoat the people on the front lines than
to look in the mirror.

[YvonneCa]

83. WOW. Welcome to our discussion of the truth. Nursing is indeed...

...in a similar situation. Lack of respect is one of the worst conditions under which people work...it does kill morale, and the stress kills workers. I wish you every success in being heard. Your words belong on a sign...visible to the world.

Thank you for responding.:grouphug:

[whistler162]

80. What is is with all the "teachers" and the NOT MY FAULT...

attitudes?

At least 1/6th of the blame is attributable to teachers.

[YvonneCa]

86. I'll accept my share of responsibility, just not ALL...

...of it. Lately, teachers have become the scapegoat for ALL that is wrong in public schools. Personally, I can no longer tolerate that.

It is CRITICALLY important that we fix public education. We, as a country, have talked about it the whole time I have been a teacher...but we haven't done the right things. Politics always gets in the way.

THIS TIME, I want Obama to do it right. If all he does is 'fix teachers', he will...sadly...learn what teachers already know: WE are not the #1 problem. And we will have wasted more time and more money and we still won't be educating our kids for THEIR future. THAT is no longer acceptable...at least not to me.

I voted for President Obama. I think he is a smart man, and the person we need now to lead. I want him to make good decisions for our country. On education, I believe he can only do that with ALL the information out there...and that includes the point of view and experience of TEACHERS.

[maryf]

97. even if thats true they are being blamed for 5/6th...

What other problems are there that aren't being looked at because of so much focus being placed on the teachers?

[YvonneCa]

109. EXCELLENT question, maryf. Thanks for...

...posting.

[proud2BlibKansan]

116. No it is not

Teachers have literally zero control over so many things that can make or break a kid's school experience.

I was given ZERO for supplies this year. ZERO. But kids can't learn without paper and pencil, now can they?

Teachers also have no say in:

* Who is in each class. Admins don't generally know kids well enough to know who works well together and which kids should be separated. Yet they are the ones who organize the classes and the schedule.

* The curriculum. We don't get to decide what to teach. But we have to teach what they tell us. Creationism is a great example. If you found out your kids were being taught creationism, it is most likely in the school district's curriculum and the teacher didn't just decide to teach it. I realize there are exceptions, but teachers rarely have a say in curriculum decisions.

* What time school starts, what time it ends and how long classes will be.

* Which kids pass and which ones fail. Administrators can overrule teachers. I see this every year. Parents don't think their child should fail so they put pressure on the principal and the kid passes. I have yet to meet any teacher who favors social promotion.

* Homework. It is a district policy in most schools and teachers have to assign it. I teach special ed and complain about this every year. It is hard to find homework assignments all of my students can complete independently. Yet I have to assign it every night. I try to be creative. At least once a week my homework is to watch the news and be prepared to write the next day about one thing they saw on the news. This year I was told not to do this anymore, as it wasn't considered 'rigorous' enough.

* What the kids eat for breakfast or lunch. If I had my way, chocolate milk and sugary foods would never be served in our cafeteria. When my kids were growing up I never bought them chocolate milk yet they got to drink it at school every damn day. Still irritates me. As a teacher, I cross my fingers every year and wish for a late lunch shift because so many kids are just out of it after lunch.

* When kids can go to the bathroom. Another pet peeve. Because of graffiti and vandalism, kids can't go to the restroom when they want to go but have to be supervised and go as a group. I find this demeaning and border line cruel. For years, I openly violated this policy and sent my kids to the restroom when they asked. I finally got in big trouble for doing this and now when a kid in my class has an emergency and I can't take them, I send them to the principal's office and she takes them.

[maryf]

134. Thanks so much for this list!! nt

[Joe Fields]

146. that still doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of bad teachers.

:puke:

You just won't give up on this, will you? Your obtuse position on this issue is both astounding and humorous.

[YvonneCa]

152. As the person who started this thread, a teacher who...

...agrees with proud2BlibKansan about teachers and education, this list is FANTASTIC.

This is not an obtuse position. It may be a subjective, not objective, position due to the fact that it is what we teachers have observed for many years. And that experience does not mesh with the current 'teachers as scapegoat' message that has been pushed on the public for the last eight years. There are SOME bad teachers. They should be GONE from the system. But most teachers do not fit that caricature.

Do you have a link to research on the percentage of 'bad teachers'? I would like to post that data here.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

85. My father was a teacher

so I'd also say the salary ought be bumped by at least 25K to start and then go from there........
Imagine what your kids would be like if their teacher earned 75-100k a year! :toast:

[YvonneCa]

91. They'd all want to go into teaching!! Now THAT'S a 'problem'...

...our nation really needs. :7

[maryf]

96. Increase Critical thinking and creative problem solving skills development...

and stop teaching to the standardized tests. For those who don't have standardized tests the "merit" pay argument just not only doesn't work, but can't be applied. NCLB? no child left unrecruited...K&R by the way! Keep up the teacher PR we really need it so people look at what the real problems are...we're being used as a blind...

[YvonneCa]

110. Yes, absolutely! And yes, we teachers are being ...

...used. I hope we will take that focus on us and reflect it on the REAL problems so that we fix the right things...FINALLY.

[RBInMaine]

99. From One Teacher To Another:

I agree with much of what you say. Yes, STOP scapegoating teachers. Most people have no idea of the complexity and demands of modern teaching. Here are some of my main ideas for improving public education: 1) One thing that MUST be done is to END the mandates. There are enough: curriculum mandates, special ed mandates, certification/re-certification mandates...the plate is full. Indeed, it is overloaded. Any system can only accommodate so many mandates. Enough. In fact, streamline many of those we already have. 2) Next, find ways to put teaching back into "teaching." We spend way too much time doing things that are not focused on INSTRUCTIONAL PRACTICES, i.e. again, all the meetings, paperwork, answering emails,... 3) Next, place content standards back into reality. Make no mistake, we should have standards, but we are now asking kids to do things in 7th grade that really belong in high school. And with 6.5 hours a day for 180 days (not including time lost to standarized testing, assemblies, fire drills, you name it...), time does not allow covering it all to mastery levels. It is simply too much. 4) In K-8, focus very heavily on mastering math and literacy skills. There are key science and social studies content items and skills as well which are important, but math and literacy need to be the focus first and last. 5) Let's not be afraid of the word "tracking" in education. We can all agree that there is wide "variation" in learning styles and abilities. Every ounce of research tells us this. Yet we have mandates that expect all students to master the same content in the same timeframes (???????). Teachers should not be required to try to teach to so many levels in one classroom. In middle school, there is NOTHING wrong with having different COURSES for kids who, for example, in math, need a course more tailored to their needs if they are struggling in that subject area. Also, there should be higher level classes available to advanced level learners (as we have in my school system). If you don't like to say "tracking," then say "differentiated courses". 6) In high school, allow students to choose a college, business, or vocational track in 10th grade. Sure, they still have an integrated academic program no matter what track, but if they go the business or vocational route, adjust the academic requirements and allow them to focus at least half of their day to business or vocational training. Work co-op programs are also great at this level. I have friends who would never have stayed in high school if not for the business and vocational tracks back in the 80's. These are AWESOME programs. (There are vocational programs out there today, but many schools lack them, and state standards are suffocating them.) 7) Have no-nonsense, school-wide disciplinary systems. Yes, Teachers are there to teach, kids are there to learn, and there is no place for bad behavior. (Yes, also have positive reinforcements and good extra-curricular programs too so that there is a positive atmosphere and things to say "yes" to as well.) If you set high expectations and follow through on them clearly and consistently, it will reduce behavior problems dramatically. 8) Finally, have a system that places A LOT of responsibility on PARENTS and LEARNERS themselves. We can't keep blaming teachers and schools for all of society's messes. Offer classes for parents to show them how to help their kids be better learners, and have processes and procedures at school that send a message of parental and personal responsibility. Here's one thought: "TURN OFF THE TEXT-MESSAGER, TURN OFF FACEBOOK, TURN OFF THE VIDEO GAMES, TURN OFF THE TV, and DO YOUR HOMEWORK FIRST !" :-)

[YvonneCa]

111. Thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful...

...response. I think we are seeing the same problems...maybe from different grade level perspectives.

[RBInMaine]

117. Thanks for reading. Yes, the "powers that be" need to listen to us.

[YvonneCa]

121. They do. Your list dovetails nicely with mine, in that...

...you cite reasons for having no grade levels and for establishing learning paths/goals for students' lifelong learning.

I especially agree with #2 about having teachers focus on teaching and not all the other 'stuff' we've been tasked to do in recent years. Most people with our training and level of education would have an assistant or 'secretary.' Not teachers. We get to do our own secretarial work, maintenance, record keeping, counseling, scheduling and conferencing...and somehow find time to teach.;)


P.S. Oh, I forgot fund-raising! :7

[sandyd921]

100. I recommend expanding low-cost high-quality, early childhood education

so that every child has the foundation they need for learning in elementary, secondary, and higher education. Actually there is much that elementary and secondary educators could learn from early childhood educators. High-quality early childhood education is based on precepts of developmentally appropriate practice which does not mean that they are not learning literacy, math, science, etc. They are learning all of this and more through play-based, active learning which also supports their social and emotional development (which is also critical to success in school and life). Wouldn't it be great if older students were also educated in a way in which they felt that learning is fun and that what they are learning is meaningful and relevant to their lives?

[YvonneCa]

114. Yes, it would be great. And here is what makes this so sad...

...to me. That is exactly how I and my colleagues were teaching during the 1990's. It was WONDERFUL! Kids loved school and were excited about what they were learning every day. They were making all kinds of connections to real life and anxious to learn more (research) on their own. NCLB killed that.

And you are totally correct about the foundation provided by high-quality early childhood education. The good news is, I think Obama supports that. :)

[sandyd921]

128. Totally agree about NCLB

It sure sucked the joy out of learning. :-(

I and my colleagues are optimistic about Obama's interest in ECE and the potential for new dollars (programs in this area, like in everything else related to education and human services, have been significantly underfunded over the last 8 years), however I am also hoping that he plans to either vastly reform NCLB or do away with it.

[ColbertWatcher]

112. Exceelent post. k+r, n/t

[YvonneCa]

163. Thank you! n/t

[immoderate]

113. Ungraded = Yes

I proposed a system like this in a school I worked in. There was a positive response but the details were not worked out while I was there. It takes a lot of work to institute a system like that. I proposed that classrooms be turned into "learning centers," and that students carry "achievement logs."

Once a student has demonstrated proficiency in a topic, he/she could move on to the next topic. I encouraged peer instruction and evaluation, and occasional review by faculty. (This is a system we used when I was in the Boy Scouts. It is very effective. Plus it makes the student into a teacher, which is very effective for learning. Another instance: I was a mediocre math student in high school, but I joined the Math Help Squad (originally because it came with lunch line privileges.) Helping other students learn math made me an A student. I eventually became a math teacher.)

--imm

[YvonneCa]

115. I have a question for you, if you are willing...

... :) You said, "There was a positive response but the details were not worked out while I was there." My question: Who responded positively and why do you think the details didn't happen?

[immoderate]

118. Inertia mostly. The bureaucracy took care of the rest.

We were a fairly large NYC middle school that had broken into three themed mini-schools to get better control. As a large school, things were clearly out of hand, students roamed the halls and the admin was ineffective. The reorganization, (which was my idea,) put each mini-school on a floor, allowed for greater monitoring of students, not to mention closer relationships.

But we were still a regular city school. It was mandated for instance that all ninth graders had to take Algebra, and would sit for the Algebra I Regents exam. This was crazy, since about half the students were not ready for it. It was carnage.

The learning center plan would have required a tremendous change, and much planning and preparation. Then there was regulation that required that students must be assigned to a grade. After the first year, our elected mini-school director, who was fabulous, got offered a principalship in another district, and our young and dynamic teachers were excessed when the budget cuts came. I jumped the year after, when it looked like I would be laid off. With all we had to do, it was not within our capability to revamp the entire system.

When we were originally reorganizing, extra resources poured in. Once that was accomplished, all that was withdrawn and sent on to the next "problem" school. Additionally, since we had been so successful dealing with our problems, the district started loading us down with problems from other schools. They played musical chairs with problems.

We had a lot to work with, but the system ground us down.

--imm

[YvonneCa]

123. Thank you for sharing your story. I think the only way things are going to improve...

...will be if those stories are heard. I saw something very similar happen in my elementary district and in the middle/high school district we feed into.

Your last line say it all: "We had a lot to work with, but the system ground us down." That described what I saw exactly. It almost seemed as if the 'incoming administrator' was purposefully doing things to undo what had been built without ever understanding it.

[immoderate]

131. The math thing was so illustrative.

If you are familiar with the NY State Regents exams, you know that they are pretty tough. We had several strategies to deal the algebra regents. Some kids got a year of fundamentals of math. This was a comprehensive review of all pre-algebra math. For some, we created the 3T algebra. We took three terms to feed them the math that was normally done in two.

Then the order came down. All ninth graders are signed up for the regents. This put the slower math students in the classes that were previously geared for the kids on track, slowing them down considerably. The pace of the lessons was dictated by the curriculum, one of the toughest in the country. Learning disabled -- didn't matter. I had kids in there that I knew couldn't do multiplication. I don't know if they still do this; I left the system in '95.

--imm

[YvonneCa]

132. They were doing the same in Caifornia...

...in 2007. The curriclum was aligned with standards...which is good...but it is taught to students at a given grade level, whether they know their multiplication facts or not.

[ejpoeta]

136. i hated that they did that with regents. i was a regents student many many

moons ago. i graduated from HS in 1991. i was in regents, then moved to Arizona for a year and a half where there was no regents, and found out that beyond NY... no one cared about regents!! so an 80 in a regents class vs an 81 in a regular class for someone else no one took the regents part into consideration for colleges. when i came back to NY for the 2nd half of my senior year i told them I did not want a regent's diploma. so they stuck me in 3 english classes and talked me into taking the regents exam for a class i never took. i ended up with a regents diploma anyway.

but i digress. when i was in regents classes, those were meant for those of us who excelled in school. it seems awful to expect those who are barely passing in the first place to be able to keep up in a regents class.

[Mike 03]

119. Kick. NT

[YvonneCa]

125. Thanks...

...Mike 03. :hi:

[LWolf]

120. My answers, also posted from the ed forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=219x12374#12645

[YvonneCa]

126. I was hoping you would cross-post your ideas...

...here. They are great ideas...thank you!

[LWolf]

133. Youi're welcome, of course.

Systemic change is not about what program a teacher or school or district uses, but about changing and fulling funding the infrastructure.

A change in philosophy is important, too, of course. The infrastructure needs to be crafted to support the philosophy.

The current philosophy of authoritarian attack, blame, and punish is not healthy or productive.

[YvonneCa]

137. That's PERFECT! "The infrastructure needs to be crafted to support the philosophy". ..

...your words are exactly right.

[LWolf]

147. It's amazing what common sense

we can get about education when we ask actual teachers, lol. ;)

[YvonneCa]

153. I think so, too. That's what this thread is all ...

...about. :) We just have to persevere. ;)

[Mike 03]

122. If you won't listen to a teacher, who will you listen to? Kick, with respect. NT

[YvonneCa]

127. We teachers always kick...

...respectfully. :7

[Born_A_Truman]

129. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

Kicked & recommended in spirit--by my hubby. I just showed your OP to him and he thought it was great. He's a HS math teacher.

[YvonneCa]

130. That was so nice of you...

...and your 'hubby' the math teacher. Tell him thank you for what he does.

[Yukari Yakumo]

145. Disagree on points two and three

I'm from the math area and seen what teachers (well, a few of them) want. The result; The Constructivist Method, which is a complete disaster.

I have a better idea. Examine other systems. Find out why countries like Singapore kicks our ass in math and science and, to the best of our ability, replicate it. Some teachers, administrators, and (especially) policy makers will not like it. But since when is good medicine ever appetizing?

[YvonneCa]

154. Do you think they should have NO VOICE...

...at all in this discussion?

[harun]

148. I like your reform ideas.

What do you think about integrating more automated teaching in to the process as well? By automated I mean things like software learning tools, online supplemental projects kids can do if they feel they need more practice in some areas, etc.

For me I always liked to hear things explained from a few different angles. With supplemental automated materials (video, audio, applications) students could get those additional angles without using any of the teachers time. Their parents could also assist them with that.

[YvonneCa]

157. Thank you. Integrated automated teaching, via technology...

...in public schools is critical to making school better...for all the reasons you stated. It DOES explain/teach concepts fro a new and different angle...which some kids need to understand a concept. It IS a great time-saving tool for teachers, and does allow for parents/families to get involved, too.

The good news...as most here probably know..is that the technology to do that already exists, is being used in many districts, and is improving all the time. :)

My only thoughts (off the top of my head) about integrating technology are the following:

1. It's not available everywhere now...and it should be.

2. Teachers MUST have some flexibility (yes, there's a theme in this thread :7) about it's use in their school/classroom...it should not be dictated in ways that do not work. I say that following my personal experience with such programs where a # student hours and the process was dictated to teachers by administration who did not comprehend the actual impact on classroom of the policy. That doesn't mean I think administrators shouldn't promote/require use of technology...they should. Just HEAR TEACHERS.

3. Policy to protect students when online are paramount. Most districts know this and take steps to keep their students safe.

[anonymous171]

151. #4 is an awesome idea.

Many high school students' problems stem from a crappy elementary education. Fixing the Elementary schools would fix the highschools as well.

[YvonneCa]

155. Thank you ! I appreciate your response to...

...my ideas. Your thoughts are one of the reasons I think we (the country) needs to hear from teachers...at all levels...about their perspective on what is wrong AND their perspective about what would make a difference.

As a proponent of unity :7, the last thing I'd want to do is pit elementary teachers against high school teachers, but their perspectives are different. We in elementary school, wish our kids came 'ready to learn'...so we know how badly we need programs like preschool and Headstart. Many high school teachers probably get just as frustrated that their students don't come 'ready to learn' and see the need to fix elementary schools. I think we're all right...and that's why we all need to be heard about public school reform.


If we 'begin with the end in mind' and want to have ALL our kids graduate from high school, prepared for their future in the 21st century, then we need to change/fix elementary schools to help you. Then, we need to change/fix/create/ preschool to help us. Then we need to change/support families to help the early childhood programs get what they need to get kids off to a good start...things like SCHIP, for example.

We're all in this together. JMHO.

[Hamlette]

156. Triple their salaries immediately

it will attract more to the field and it will help them earn respect. Right now, they are seen as almost minimum wage workers, mothers who just want a little extra income while they raise their own kids. It should be the highest paid and the most respected profession (that and cops).

This hatred of teachers started under Reagan. Republicans don't want an educated populace because we will all know they are lying (about who created the debt/deficit for instance, it wasn't the dems!) Additionally, teachers have strong unions. It is all part of GOP union busting so the powers that be have more control. I hated Reagan the most because he trashed educators.

My son had some truly great teachers but 2 or 3 bad ones too. I might have considered teaching but the pay grade stopped me. (I went to law school instead.) I'm not saying I'd be a good teacher or that those who went into teaching are not smart or motivated. It's just hard to imagine how we attract the best and the brightest at what we pay them.

[YvonneCa]

158. Agreed...or even doubling them would send a good message...

...to the next generation. Another poster said (paraphrasing) that we should raise salaries by $25,000 and that, too, would send a good message...and probably convince more smart dedicated would-be teachers to follow their dream.

Thank you for your comments...I think you are exactly right. :)

[Hepburn]

159. I taught the "Kids no one wanted" back in the early 1970s...

...before I went to law school.

I think what bothers me now is what bothered me then: The goal was to bring everyone to the middle and a lot of creative kids just were different in ways that did not fit in the middle.

It also bothered me that very bright kids were bored to death even in gifted classes and they became problem students at times because of being so bored they acted out.

I find that individualized learning is important and it is given so little attention.

JMHO

[YvonneCa]

161. Sadly, under NCLB, that worsened...

...IMO. I taught those kids in the late 80's and 90's...and we were innovative in addressing their needs. It was GREAT! Then came NCLB...

Thank you for your response. What you say is one reason I'd like to have students set goals for their future and a path...that they commit to...for their education to get there. Then those kids at the top would have a path suitable to what will keep them learning.

[yurbud]

160. class size matters

[YvonneCa]

162. Yes., it does. To quote you, "CLASS SIZE MATTERS!" :) n/t