Obama should emulate Thomas Jefferson and send our navy to stop Somali pirates

[David Dunham]

Obama has to be careful not to allow this piracy situation to go on for days and days, or the US public may start getting unsure about his ability to handle foreign crises, analogizing his lack of a meaningful response here to Carter's perceived weaknesses in dealing with foreign policy crises. Hopefully, the pirates will free the captain, but even if they do, our navy should act with other countries' navies to go after the Somali pirates and stop them from doing this in the future and free the 250 hostages they are now holding. There is good historical precedent for such military action against pirates, who are clearly breaking international law. Over two centuries ago, Thomas Jefferson, the first Democrat, sent the US navy to burn and destroy the ships of the Barbary pirates in North Africa, and it worked. The pirates stopped going after US vessels.

[bkkyosemite]

1. Agreed!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

2. Agreed

[liberaltrucker]

3. Um, he already has.......

:shrug:

[David Dunham]

5. At some point, we will should try with other navies to stop all the pirates

Quarantine the Somali coast with our navies and other navies to make the Somali pirates stop, for example.

[hlthe2b]

24. Some here appear to be clueless. We already are....

The coastline of Somalia is huge--the equiavlent of 3 Texas, yet we have blockaded sufficiently to prevent reinforcements to the Somali pirates.

There is history on this score. I wish we'd all stop relying on pundit pushing their testosterone-driven BS on cable news and read some of the better newspaper reporting on the issue.


Plus, I see lots of probable infiltrators stirring the pot, as usual on this issue.... Don't get sucked in, DUers.

[icnorth]

58. Exactly.

Naval resources needed to patrol this area on a regular basis aren't anywhere close to being sufficient. Perhaps, just perhaps decisions and discussion being conducted are based on real time information and analysis and not on bluff, bluster and bullshit like Faux Nooze.

[aquart]

33. Thank you. Never mind this unilateral crap.

They're attacking everybody so everybody put something in the pot here.

[Jackpine Radical]

4. Obama should emulate General Marshall and send aid to Somalia,

maybe helping them clean up the toxic waste the Europeans dumped on them, and helping them find a way to feed themselves after western fishing vessels illegally raided their fisheries.

Piracy is obviously wrong, but it is also a practice born of desperation.

[David Dunham]

6. The Somali pirates are thugs and have already killed innocent hostages they have taken

[HeresyLives]

10. How many would that be?

I don't know of any.

[David Dunham]

15. Look at the post below that is directed to people who think the pirates are not dangerous

[Jackpine Radical]

60. The American military are thugs and have already tortured and killed

innocent hostages they have taken.

[babylonsister]

14. Thank you! nt

[anonymous171]

19. Somalia is a black hole for aid. nt

[Two Americas]

48. yeah

Much worse than post-Nazi Germany.

[cali]

52. Post Nazi Germany had a structure set up in short order

There was an entity to direct aid to. There is no corresponding entity in Somalia.

[Two Americas]

54. so could Somalia n/t

...

[cali]

55. Sure, if we go in with guns and bombs blazing

and kill a few hundred thousand Somalis. Do you really support that? How interesting.

[Two Americas]

65. lol

That is funny.

[Lyric]

42. The U.N. tries to send aid and the pirates steal it for their own gain.

In fact, there was a U.N. Food Aid shipment on the very ship that we've all been talking about for days. Food, fuel, and medicines are hot commodity items in Somalia, and the warlords don't like it when the U.N. gives away for free what THEY could be profiting from. As I said to someone else this morning, these pirates are no Robin Hoods. They don't do a damned thing to help their fellow Somalians.

Take down the warlords and the pirates--there is no way to help the people of Somalia while these parasites are still free to operate. For what the U.N. is forced to pay for armed guards to try and get small shipments in unmolested, they could be sending much, much more food, clothes, medicines, and tools to the needy innocent citizens of Somalia.

These assholes victimize their OWN people as much as the greedy corporatist Westerners. Yes, stop the dumping and the raping of Somalia's fishing waters, but ALSO stop the pirates. To think that these warlords and pirates are just going to stop their most lucrative moneymaking scheme if we stop the dumping and fish-stealing is naive. It's easy money, and they aren't going to stop until they have no choice.

The world needs to band together and liberate Somalia--both from the corporatist resource rapists AND from the tyranny of their warlords and pirates. These criminals are the equivalent of Somalia's "elite" wealthy class. They aren't victims. They're scavenging opportunists who are interested only in self-enrichment and power.

[MajorChode]

50. Piracy is NOT a practice of "desperation"

Somalian piracy is big business orchestrated by well armed and well funded clan warlords.

[cali]

51. unfortunately, there's no one to send aid to.

and the piracy we're speaking about is not done simply out of desperation. There's a large degree of greed and convenience involved. But be that as it may, there is NO functional gov't in Somalia. How do you route aid to the country?

[Arctic Dave]

7. Wow. These type of post just get more dumb by the hour.

You are saying you want to send billions of dollars in naval assest to burn a few dozen fiberglass skiffs. Aye aye Admiral, I'm sure they will get right on that. Also, why is our navy responsible for all the hostages?

[rwheeler31]

8. Why protect these international shippers and their insurers?

If they want to continue this they should provide their own protection.

[stillcool]

20. I've read this particular ship..

belongs to a company that is a defense contractor.

[Oregone]

44. No crap

You got everyone in the US riled up on the behalf of the insurance companies profits.

Hell, the shippers paid their premiums. No worries. When did all the poor in this country get so up in a tizzy over the plight of the already rich?

[MajorChode]

49. In fact, those same companies have made a conscience decision NOT to protect their ships

The vast majority of ships operating in those waters have no problems whatsoever. Shipping companies have figured out that it would actually cost them more to protect those assets than it would to simply pay ransom to the pirates. So they have made a conscience business decision to NOT protect the vessels and pay pirates as just a cost of doing business.

[HooptieWagon]

59. There are legal issues inre arming merchant ships. n/t

And its tough to avoid the pirates when they're capable of operating hundreds of miles offshore.

[MajorChode]

66. Most of the problems don't involve legal issues

In fact the legal issues aren't much of an obstacle at all. It's quite legal to arm merchant sailors and has been since the US entered WWII.

The biggest obstacle is insurance requirements and costs. If sailors are going to be armed, then they must be trained or they wouldn't be effective or may actually be a hindrance.

So basically what has happened is shipping companies have calculated the costs associated with arming crew members and/or providing armed security members on ship along with the additional insurance costs and have determined that from a business standpoint, it's cheaper for them to just pay off the pirates. The reason is because despite all of the press coverage, piracy even in the Gulf of Aden is rare considering the vast number of ships that operate in the area.

[csziggy]

9. The destroyer Bainbridge sent to the scene is named for the Commodore sent to fight Barbary pirates

Though he was not all that sucessful:

In 1800, {William} Bainbridge was sent to carry the tribute which the United States still paid to the dey of Algiers to secure exemption from capture for its merchant ships in the Mediterranean. Upon arrival in the 24-gun USS George Washington, he made the tactical mistake of anchoring in the harbor of Algiers--directly under the guns of the fort. The dey demanded that he ferry the Algerian ambassador and retinue to Constantinople or be blown to bits on the spot. With great disgust, Bainbridge raised the Algerian flag on his masthead and submitted to the embarrassment of serving as the dey's messenger service. <1>

When the United States found that bribing the pirate Barbary states did not work, and decided to use force, he served against Algiers and Tunis. In command of the USS Philadelphia, when she ran aground on the Tunisian coast on 29 December 1803, he was imprisoned until 3 June 1806. On his release, he returned for a time to the merchant service in order to make good the loss of profit caused by his captivity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bainbridge

He later commanded the USS Constitution during the War of 1812 and defeated the HMS Java - his big claim to fame.

A good article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/weekinreview/12gettleman.html?ref=africa

[alarimer]

11. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have patrols in that area.

It could be an international effort. That would certainly deter a lot of this.

[TorchTheWitch]

43. that's been done for a long time and it's not working

The area is enormous and the constant patroling hasn't stopped any pirates.

[me b zola]

12. I've been waiting for the post to say that Obama needs to don his cape

...and--using his super hero attributes--fly to the scene of the crime and personally beat up the kidnappers. Yeah, that's the ticket. WTF is he waiting for?

[David Dunham]

13. One US naval destroyer could destroy a lot of pirate ships.

[me b zola]

16. A destroyer and a frigate are there

But this is a hostage situation and they are attempting to end it with the hostage alive.

[David Dunham]

23. If they free the hostage, blow up their ships afterward. Piracy is a major crime

[me b zola]

37. Keyword==>> crime

We don't execute criminal suspects at the scene. There are courts that can and should be used to dispense justice.

[HooptieWagon]

17. Burn all the Somali skiffs.

They obviously don't want to use them for fishing.

[paulsby]

25. if you find a skiff

with people in their holding a bunch of weapons, you summarily execute them as pirates.

somalis are not cruising around in skiffs holding automatic weapons to go FISHING.

it's prima facie evidence they are pirates, and sufficient for summary execution

that is how you handle pirates.

tarantara tarantara

[Oregone]

45. Better yet, nuke the whole country, continent, and non-USA

[stillcool]

18. Every crisis is an opportunity....

Somalia: Another CIA-Backed Coup Blows Up
by Mike Whitney
http://aljazeera.com/news/articles/42/Somalia_Another_CIAbacked_coup_blows_up.html

Up until a month ago, no one in the Bush administration showed the least bit of interest in the incidents of piracy off the coast of Somalia. Now that's all changed and there's talk of sending in the Navy to patrol the waters off the Horn of Africa and clean up the pirates hideouts. Why the sudden about-face? Could it have something to do with the fact that the Ethiopian army is planning to withdrawal all of its troops from Mogadishu by the end of the year, thus, ending the failed two year US-backed occupation of Somalia?
The United States has lost the ground war in Somalia, but that doesn't mean its geopolitical objectives have changed one iota. The US intends to stay in the region for years to come and use its naval power to control the critical shipping lanes from the Gulf of Aden. The growing strength of the Somali national resistance is a set-back, but it doesn't change the basic game-plan. The pirates are actually a blessing in disguise. They provide an excuse for the administration to beef up it's military presence and put down roots. Every crisis is an opportunity.

The Long and Hidden History of the U.S in Somalia
by Stephen Zunes
AlterNet, January 21, 2002
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/North_Africa/Hx_US_Somalia.html

America's interests in Somalia:
Four major U.S. oil companies are sitting on a prospective fortune in exclusive concessions
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/North_Africa/Somalia_US_OilCorp_Fortune.html


Somalia: Hidden Catastrophe, Hidden Agenda
by Media Lens
www.dissidentvoice.org/, May 14th, 2008
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/North_Africa/Somalia_Hidden_Agenda.html


More Blood For Oil

by Carl Bloise
www.zmag.org, January 16, 2007
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Africa/MoreBloodOil_Somalia.html

[Raineyb]

21. Spare me.

You don't give a shit about piracy.

Although you do seem to get your rocks off on the idea of killing people.

[hlthe2b]

26. Isn't that the truth.....

:eyes:

Ignorance abounds on these threads--along with the trolls.

[kristopher]

22. That's a waste of money

Arm the merchant ships and train the crews to repel boarders. Using Navy ships for interdiction would have then searching around for a needle in a haystack, trying to figure where the pirates would strike. Arming the merchants puts force precisely where and when it is needed.

[David Dunham]

27. We have a big navy and should use it to get all these pirates. It won't be hard for US destroyers.

[kristopher]

28. Bullshit.

You obviously have no idea of the scope of the problem or the cost of fielding that "big navy".

[David Dunham]

30. Our navy is already on the seas and fully armed with big shells and missiles.

[kristopher]

34. Big shells and missiles, eh?

When you kill flies, you don't use a shotgun. You use a flyswatter.

What's your objection to the least cost alternative of arming the merchants to deal with the problem? Private ships - private money.

[David Dunham]

39. Our navy should protect US ships and destroy pirates who try to seize them

[mitchtv]

29. I tend to agree, but as of now it is not legal

that should be changed and accredited marine guards should be paid for by the companies. It involves international law however, and I can't see a change easily. One 50 cal should be enough for most large ships maybe two.

[kristopher]

31. And exactly what legal mechanism makes it illegal?

Ships have a right to defend themselves. The US is not a signatory to the UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA.

[David Dunham]

32. International law for centuries has held that piracy is illegal

[kristopher]

35. Dude you are as thick as a brick.

The conversation isn't about whether piracy is illegal, it is about article 105-107 of the UNCLOS treaty that limits who can seize pirate vessels. \
UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA
Article105

Seizure of a pirate ship or aircraft

On the high seas, or in any other place outside the jurisdiction of any State, every State may seize a pirate ship or aircraft, or a ship or aircraft taken by piracy and under the control of pirates, and arrest the persons and seize the property on board. The courts of the State which carried out the seizure may decide upon the penalties to be imposed, and may also determine the action to be taken with regard to the ships, aircraft or property, subject to the rights of third parties acting in good faith.

Article106

Liability for seizure without adequate grounds

Where the seizure of a ship or aircraft on suspicion of piracy has been effected without adequate grounds, the State making the seizure shall be liable to the State the nationality of which is possessed by the ship or aircraft for any loss or damage caused by the seizure.

Article107

Ships and aircraft which are entitled to seize on account of piracy

A seizure on account of piracy may be carried out only by warships or military aircraft, or other ships or aircraft clearly marked and identifiable as being on government service and authorized to that effect.


The US has not signed this treaty.

[David Dunham]

38. The UN Charter gives us the right to defend our ships -- i.e, fight piracy

[notesdev]

40. Piracy and the fight against it long predate the UN

Piracy has been recognized as an act of war for untold ages. No one needs permission to fight back when war is waged against them. It doesn't matter what treaty is out there; every person has a natural right to defend themselves and their property from an aggressor who threatens their lives and attempts to steal their property.

[TorchTheWitch]

46. Exactly

Apparently, the international community has already come to that realization that this is the course to take.

[OwnedByFerrets]

36. This is a private corporation matter. US military should not be involved.

The corporations that insist on sailing these waters can hire companies to protect themselves. Hell, they can even hire NON lethal companies to do it.

[cali]

53. not according to international law, it's not.

sorry, you're just flat wrong.

[kristopher]

61. I'd love to see your reference supporting that claim

Two relevant points:
Self defense isn't prohibited by international law nor is the arming of merchant ships for that purpose. It the merchant ships want to take a proactive approach and pursue pirates for capture, that is against the Law of the Sea treaty.
Second, the US is NOT a signatory of the Law of the Sea treaty so our vessels can pretty much do whatever the hell they want in this regard; especially as Somalia is a failed state with no empowered government.

[L. Coyote]

41. Public 'analogizing' Obama to Carter. Worst thing have happened!

Correlation is the concept, I assume.

I suspect that when an American vessel or person is endangered by pirates at sea, there is a response without Obama having to take some initiative and do a "make it so" moment.

[spoony]

47. Maybe Obama should follow Jefferson's example and own himself, too.

It's foolhardy at best to try to make policy decisions on the precedent of flawed politicians living centuries ago.

[Are_grits_groceries]

56. A lot of the ships captured

are not American. They are owned by who knows what company and flagged under whatever country. The crew may be from Mars. The Phillipines has a huge number of people held hostage.

We have ginormous ships that are not the best type to deal with these situations. We need smaller, very fast crafts that can respond right away.

There needs to be a concerted international plan to deal with this.

[ForrestGump]

57. We need

James Bond on a Jetski.



That'd do it.

[hlthe2b]

62. Ahh, gee, David D--seems your big issue has been neutralized...

This will be a blow to some who SOOOOO wanted to denigrate the administration as "weak."


Source: CNN

Breaking on CNN. No details.

Reported by Barbara Starr, Pentagon correspondent.

On edit:

(CNN) -- The captain of the Maersk Alabama was freed Sunday after being held captive by pirates on a lifeboat off Somalia since Wednesday, a senior U.S. official with knowledge of the situation told CNN.

The official said Capt. Richard Phillips is uninjured and in good condition, and that three of the four pirates were killed. The fourth pirate is in custody. Phillips was taken aboard the USS Bainbridge, a nearby naval warship.

[Spazito]

63. Yep, big time fizzle...

I can't wait to see the appropriate accolades, from those who took such great joy in pointing fingers at the Obama Administration and inferring it was weak, now that it is apparent they were VERY wrong. I am not holding my breath re those accolades though, I like living too much, lol.

[Karenina]

64. The military masturbation comes to an abrupt end...

:rofl: