How much blame do you think the "western" world deserves for the sorry state of Somalia's economy?

[Threedifferentones]

If you lived in a desperate, lawless place, where legitimate commerce was almost non-existent, and violent gangs ruled, would you attempt to make a living through violence as well?

If you saw no career paths in life other than slave or slave driver, what would you do?

Should people who live in horrific places be held to the same moral standards as those of us who are comparatively affluent and comfortable?

When thinking about Somalia and its pirates, these are the questions I grapple with. What are your thoughts?

[rampart]

1. these are my thoughts

when i think of my own city (new orleans)

[stillcool]

2. I haven't gotten really into it yet...

but this is the place where I start:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/North_Africa/North_Africa_page.html

[doctor jazz]

3. I love the "two wrongs make a right" argument.

:eyes:

[stillcool]

4. How do you feel about the..

"cause and effect" argument?

[doctor jazz]

7. I think it has nothing to do with what is right and wrong.

Your standards obviously vary.

[stillcool]

12. I'm thinking in terms of human standards..

you know...like you go to Somalia, learn the history, and think about what you might see yourself doing in certain situations...or even reading a book. I really don't think we human beings are all that different, do you? It's not your fault that by the accident of your birth you're an American, but surely you can comprehend how other lives have been affected by the interventions of the United States Government, no?

[doctor jazz]

14. Sure, I can have 93 kinds of empathy for unfortunate people. Do you want me to excuse

capital crimes too? No way, Jose.
:grr:

[stillcool]

15. Capital Crimes?

I don't want anybody to 'excuse' any crime. I would love it if human beings would take the time to understand why human beings do the things we all do. There is no big, no small you know. You may see yourself as above it all, but no one is.

[doctor jazz]

17. No big, no small? What the hell does that mean?

I understand very well why some human beings behave badly, they're like a dog that has caught rabies through no fault of his own...but the only fix is to eliminate them. It isn't a curable condition.

[stillcool]

23. really? You think that perhaps..

if you stop kicking the shit out of the dog, the dog might behave differently? As far as no big, no small...well let me put it this way.. American exceptionalism is a disease as bad as rabies, and far more deadly.

[Bluerthanblue]

98. you ARE

Cool-
and I appreciate your perspective and the way you voice it.

Thanks!

:hi:

[alfredo]

66. If you look at failed states around the world you will see a former

colony. When the Euros colonized Africa they split up the continent to suit their needs. They paid no mind to historical tribal lands. The Luo was split up between Kenya, Tanzania, and Uganda. That made them a minority in all three countries. The Mau Mau uprising was the kikuyu response to the Luo wanting a say in Kenyan politics.

A balance of power that had been worked out over centuries was upset by the Brits, Germans, Portuguese, French, Italians, and others. Not only were tribal boundaries upset, the social order was destroyed by heavy handed missionaries and colonial laws. There were Kenyans I met that only spoke English. They were totally divorced from the culture when they were denied their native tongue.

[AngryAmish]

84. And there was tribal animosity before colonization?

There was not a balance of power in Africa before Europeans got there. That is a bizarre, Euro-centric view that only the all powerful white man can do anything, good or ill.

African empires rose, African empires fell. People moved around (see the Bantu migration). People lived as kings and people were slaves. Africans are human beings with all the good and ill that is implicit in that.

[alfredo]

94. What balance, or imbalance was of their own doing. The Euros made it

much worse. They had social structures that may not have been the best, but it worked for them. they had their own religions that were appropriate for their location and culture.

[AngryAmish]

97. Question: Is Christianity appropriate for europeans or the americas?

It is a middle-eastern religion afterall.

People migrate and move, invade and are invaded. That is human history. It is written on the very dna we all carry about. Saying things are worse or better is a subjective complaint.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_expansion>
The Bantu expansion/migration is one of the great movements of people in human hisotry. It is comparable to movements of the Indo-European peoples. And it was done through violence. Not through negociations and holding of hands. They slaughtered the people before them and took their land. Among the peoples they displaced were what used to be called the Bushmen. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoisan_languages> These people were pushed into the desert.

Human history is not nice and the main actors are not the almighty white man.

[alfredo]

101. The thing that changed was the scale of the change. Some cultures will

adapt, some won't. Somalia and the Congo seem to have a difficult time of it.

I lived in Africa for a few years.

Read "I Didn't do it For You" by Michela Wrong.

My involvement (not specifically) is detailed in Chapter 10. Those interviewed for this chapter are open, honest people. They were good friends then and remain friends today. A couple still have wistful memories of their time with Michela.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/14/books/review/14GIRY.html

http://web.mac.com/alfredo_tomato/Kagnew_Images/Kagnew_page_1.html

After leaving Eritrea, I wandered Africa for a period of time.

[stray cat]

5. Do we try to protect our citizens or feel sorry for the Somalis and let them kidnap and kill?

I can feel sorry for criminals and child molesters even based on their upbringing or circumstances but that doesn't mean I don't want them stopped from harming others

[stillcool]

what citizens are you interested in protecting..

and from who? I don't understand how this ships owner, that has contracts with the Defense Department, doesn't have a line in to Blackwater. Why is it up to you, or me, to protect the shipping business? Oh..I forgot..our military is only used to protect 'business interests'. Yes, I can see where this is going.

Somalia: Another CIA-Backed Coup Blows Up
by Mike Whitney
http://aljazeera.com/news/articles/42/Somalia_Another_C...

Up until a month ago, no one in the Bush administration showed the least bit of interest in the incidents of piracy off the coast of Somalia. Now that's all changed and there's talk of sending in the Navy to patrol the waters off the Horn of Africa and clean up the pirates hideouts. Why the sudden about-face? Could it have something to do with the fact that the Ethiopian army is planning to withdrawal all of its troops from Mogadishu by the end of the year, thus, ending the failed two year US-backed occupation of Somalia?
The United States has lost the ground war in Somalia, but that doesn't mean its geopolitical objectives have changed one iota. The US intends to stay in the region for years to come and use its naval power to control the critical shipping lanes from the Gulf of Aden. The growing strength of the Somali national resistance is a set-back, but it doesn't change the basic game-plan. The pirates are actually a blessing in disguise. They provide an excuse for the administration to beef up it's military presence and put down roots. Every crisis is an opportunity.
http://aljazeera.com/news/articles/42/Somalia_Another_CIAbacked_coup_blows_up.html

[annabanana]

22. Is that an either/or situation for you?

Surely we can do both.

[The Straight Story]

6. We do the same (moral thing) to people here in the good ole US

People in poverty are more likely to smoke and drink, but I hear people all the time bitching about them because of that (I won't give a bum money, he might beer or smokes. Oh noes!).

Never mind that sometimes those things had people deal with day to day issues, and just because we don't do the same does not make us better.

They are still people, and I don't withhold compassion on others because they don't follow my religion...err progressive beliefs ideals.

Diversity is great, as long as it is diversity I approve of :rofl:

[varelse]

8. Piracy can't be justified as a response to international crimes against the people of Somalia

but those people still deserve protection, and justice, from the rest of the world: The Poor Fishermen of Somalia

[CJCRANE]

9. I think there's more to it.

IMO there is some kind of international gangster syndicate or financiers helping the pirates.

[msongs]

10. You may think armed kidnapping is great and wonderful - until it happens to you and YOUR family nt

[patrice]

11. If we spent a small fraction of what we have killing 1M Iraqis who didn't need killing on Somalia

instead, could we have helped them?

[cali]

21. unlikely. there is no where to direct aid to within Somalia.

[Warpy]

13. It's Daddy Bush's country

Clinton was lied to about what the problems were and tried to fix them. Of course there was no way he could.

Obviously, the only way to cope is by a strong international naval presence to make piracy dangerous and unprofitable. That's only a short term solution, though.

Long term, it's going to take aid, lots of it. If the warlords are seen to seize the aid and sell it, the people will eventually overthrow them. If the aid gets through, then the warlords might morph into responsible government over time.

Their pain is our problem at this point, but their institutions are not.

[opihimoimoi]

16. Blame Themselves for their SHITTY Life...don't be puting blame on anyone else

They needed help in a Famine....we went there to help...and them Somalies shot down our Blkhawk and paraded the bodies...fuck um all.

My buddy was in the rescue as a corpman....he came back with PTSD...

They drove the USA away with that one action...

The Somalians must stand up and get a GOV't...no guts no glory....if not, suffer with the rest of Peoples trapped by allowing Bullies for Leadership....

[doctor jazz]

18. Bingo.

:thumbsup:

[stillcool]

24. A little history you seem to have missed...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/North_Africa/North_Africa_page.html

[opihimoimoi]

26. YUP, I knew it....Bush Fucked it up...still..the Somalis are in the end, responsible for their

own plight

They must find solutions ,,,and Piracy is NOT one of them....

They fuck themselves when engaging in Robbery on the High Seas

Excuses be damned.

[Hannah Bell]

28. you missed this too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5440672&mesg_id=5441374

[lazer47]

19. Where does it say that it is our responsibility anyway,,and

if we take blame for the economy,, then do we take responsibility for the peace,, by opening up another war front???

[corruptmewithpower]

20. Gee wiz! I haven't seen anyone "blame America first."

If some wacko takes a peek at this site, he's sure to be confused.

[yorkie]

25. I read their fishing water was ruined by toxic dumping..

done illegally, and the fish have all died or are misshapen, thus their fishing way of life, and their source of food, no longer exists. This does not justify what they are doing, but the situation merits more investigation. I have been aggravated no one on television has mentioned this.

[HooptieWagon]

39. If true (it's unsubstantiated), then the pirates should be attacking the illegal dumpers

with their AKs and RPGs, and the world would be on their side. However, by atacking French yachts and US aid shipping - not to mention murdering Yemeni fishermen and stealing their boats - its impossible to view the pirates as anything other than gangster thugs.

[HamdenRice]

27. As someone who has lived in Africa, I'd say about 95%. Bush overthrew their govt Dec 2006

They had spent about a decade and a half slowly rebuilding a form of government. Bush didn't like it and paid Ethiopia to overthrow it. Back to chaos and anarchy.

If most people knew even 1/10th of what the US and other western countries did to Somalia, they would hang their heads in shame.

Oh wait a minute. We know what we did to places like Iraq, El Salvador, Guatemala, etc., and don't give a shit.

I take it back. If we knew everything, we still wouldn't give a shit, and we'd root for "nuking the pirates."

[opihimoimoi]

29. I will repeat::: BushCo Fucked it all to Hell

[Fire1]

32. Not I. I've read enough U.S. history to know this country

has done more harm than good. Where there's greed and corruption, the good ole USA ain't far behind.

[Threedifferentones]

34. lol

A jackass no more, IMO. :)

[Number23]

52. You and ima_sinnic win this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5440672#5441669

Hands down. Take a bow...

[anaxarchos]

53. It was one of the toughest places in Africa...

...to form a post-colonial "nation". Italian, British, and French Somalilands - with a huge chunk "given" by the Brits to Ethiopia in return for some long forgotten "strategic" advantage. And, they still made a go of it. Barre was no peach but under him, Somalia had the most effective literacy program in Africa. Literacy went from 5% to 55% by the 1980s. They also had one of the most effective public health programs. To this day, AIDs infections in Somalia are at a much lower rate than almost anywhere else in Central or East Africa. But... they also had that "Socialist" symbology and all those "Marxist" slogans. The place was systematically taken apart in the most cynical way possible - by funding the tribes and clans while publicly talkin' shit about "African 'tribalism'". It wasn't just the U.S., either. The French and Brits were in it up to their ears... the whole time talkin' about "strategic waterways" and the Gulf of Aden and "threats to free navigation" (which is some kinda 18th century mercantile "freedom"). They took the joint apart. Now they have a "failed state", "piracy" and starvation. The irony never stops.

And if they ever take "blowback" from it all, they will look up in the sky and mouth, "Why do evil people hate our freedom?"

[ima_sinnic]

30. the ignorance and lack of compassion by so-called "progressives" on this thread disgusts me

pfft. simple-minded, spoiled, and narrow-minded.
If your entire means of making a living is destroyed, and there is no law, what WOULD you do? All I see is, basically, well, I'm so morally superior, of COURSE I would starve to death before I would commit a crime to live; of COURSE I would never feel resentful or even murderous and without guilt about stealing from the rich who have plundered my country for themselves and left us with nothing. no, of course not. all the moralizing holier-than-thou bloodthirsty ignorant affluent suburbanites with their suv's and cell phones and conformist gadgets and gewgaws, who know absolutely nothing of poverty, starvation, injustice, and utter hopelessness, would quietly lie down and die before trying to steal something to live.

[Threedifferentones]

33. Hell ya imasinic

The people who say "well its their own fault" never seem to stop and consider what they would do in a place like that, where slavery and coercion are the norm, because guns are rampant but food and resources are scarce, having been shipped off to people who can afford them.

I would like to add that they are also almost invariably ignorant of the history of colonialism. Or, they like to pretend that, because America did not directly colonize many places, our economy of the twentieth century was not based much on the fruits of its slavery. The truth, though, is that if I were born in Somalia, or even tossed their without major cash/influence today, I would become a horrible, murdering monster, or worse, a broken worker. And unless you are fucking Gandhi, the same is true for you. Even a cursory Wiki read of Somalia's history confirms this, as well as the west's culpability, as of course you know :).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia

[ima_sinnic]

46. we got a very minor taste of such anarchy in the days after Katrina

-- imagine spending a lifetime (which would undoubtedly be very short) in that situation-- no social services of any sort, no law, no schools to speak of, every person for him or herself. It is unbearable to think about, actually, esp. for children.

[alarimer]

47. I would bet that everyone here would be every bit as bad in similar circumstances.

I think we have at best a thin veneer over the "Lord of the Flies" interior. We are all just one or two steps away from animals. Americans are not better than everyone else simply by being born here. And that also seems to be a common thread.

I have heard so much ignorant crap and rah-rah American "We're Americans, we kick ass!" bullshit it makes me want to puke.

[Number23]

51. Preach it, sinnic!! Preach!

[Bluerthanblue]

100. it's always easy to be

morally superior, or at least to say "I'd never do that!" from a position of power and plenty.

I think many of us would be appalled at the things we'd do, or seriously consider doing when push came to shove.

Thanks for your well spoken words.

:hi:

[Warren DeMontague]

31. I don't know. My hairshirt is at the dry cleaners.

For fuck's sake. Everything, everywhere, is not ALWAYS OUR FAULT.

Just like paranoia and delusions of grandeur are two sides of the same coin, believing America is omnipotent for good OR ill are both self-centered delusions. The universe does not revolve around us, and sometimes people do shitty things on their own, with no help from our 'hegemonic patriarchal imperialist western paradigm'.

[Fire1]

35. "Everything, everywhere, is not ALWAYS OUR FAULT."

Where there's greed and corruption involved, pretty much.

[Warren DeMontague]

36. Of course, I also think that people who believe in elaborate conspiracies running the world

are actually terrified, if only on a subconscious level, at the gnawing suspicion that in reality, no one is running the show. No one.

[hack89]

50. Because greed and corruption didn't exist before 1776.

What a stupid argument.

[uppityperson]

37. Looking at underlying causes is always a good thing to do.

Try to figure out they "why"s of how people behave is a start in figuring out how to change things in a positive manner.

But then I grew up in times when the Peace Corps was new and world activism happening.

[Karenina]

48. Perish the thought!

;-)

[HooptieWagon]

38. The Somali warlords are to blame for most of Somalia's problems.

Unfortunatly the Navy didn't have the opportunity to take out a few of them also - but they can probably be tracked down by financial records, sat and cell phone traffic, and arms shipments. Time to get on it.

edit:typo.

[SharonAnn]

40. Yes, men with guns always seem to have enough to eat. The others? Not so much.

[HamdenRice]

60. And where did the "Somali warlords" come from? Any idea?

When Somali society collapsed into warlordism in the late 80s, where do you think the weapons came from that turned Somali clans into Somali militias?

Three guesses -- OK start now!

[pettypace]

41. Seriously

Do tell us about your personal situation?

How can you possibly think in such idealistic terms?

Do you donate all your disposable income to charities, or the needy and the like?

If the answer is no, stop preaching what you don't practice.

If the answer is yes, then I applaud your efforts.

[murdoch]

42. Clinton invaded Somalia

Fifteen years ago the US armed forces were traipsing through Somalia. What do you think that did for the stability of the country?

This latest action was more understandable, that one was not.

If the US didn't bomb, throw up bases, interfere in elections, take the sides of landlords over tenants, latifundia owners over peasants, capitalists over workers all over the world we might say things should not be so hasty to blame, but the US military is all over the world beating up poor and working people for the benefit of the rich, with US bases in hundreds of countries around the world.

[ddeclue]

44. Clinton sent troops to Somalia 15 years ago to STOP GENOCIDE.

Don't conflate it with the crap that GWB did in Iraq.

Very different.

[HamdenRice]

57. The astounding lack of historical memory on DU sometimes is terrifying. This is utterly false.

There was a genocide in Rwanda between Hutu and Tutsi. There was no genocide in Somalia, which is 95% ethnically the same although divided into clans.

And it wasn't even Clinton. It was Poppy's departing gift to Clinton.

Bush senior sent troops to support the UN which was there to distribute food aid during a famine and civil war between southerns clans. The famine was caused in part by war, part by drought, but more by merchants taking advantage of the drought to hoard and price gouge, which caused the poorest to be unable to purchase the food that actually was readily available.

The UN and US went in with no opposition. It was an assistance and peacekeeping mission, not an invasion, and the main goal was simply to distribute food and force the merchants to open the storehouses that were bulging with food.

This is the situation that Clinton inherited as Bush's one last military adventure.

At some point relations between some of the warlords and UN troops deteriorated, and a warlord attacked a contingent of UN troops. The US went in to help protect the UN and "punish" the warlord who attacked the UN.

The attempt to arrest and punish that warlord led to the US in typical blunderbuss fashion blowing up more and more shit in Mogadishu, and in one attempt at arresting the warlord led to the disastrous violent, murderous confrontation between US helicopter gunships and helicopter borne troops and practically the whole population of Mogadishu -- the incident that became popularized as "Blackhawk Down."

When a DUer can write blithely that "Clinton" "invaded" Somalia to "end genocide" we have reached depressing levels of historical illiteracy.

[NNN0LHI]

64. Clinton did not invade Somalia

Are you ignorant on the subject or are you lying?

Don

[ddeclue]

43. There are always options short of killing and robbing and stealing.

Stop making lame excuses.

Yes they should be held to the same moral standards as the rest of us.

Somalia's problems are largely Somalia's - it hasn't been a Western colony in nearly 49 years. How long is it the West's problem? Do you really think that nearly 5 decades is NOT enough for Somalia to start owning its own mess?

[hfojvt]

93. Spock: "Well it looks like this is it. We are gonna die."

Bones: "A while back you said there are always alternatives."
Spock (arches eyebrow): "It seems I was mistaken."
Bones (muttering): "At least I lived long enough to hear that."

Humans typically take the path of least resistance though, and the Somalis, to their credit, have not done too much murdering.

It is a messy situation though. First, with the US supporting a dictator after Ethiopia fell to a Marxist revolution. That dictatorship finally fell in 1991, but then, because of supposed "terra threats" we (or the Bush administration) supported an invasion by Ethiopia in 2006. It was Ethiopia who brought the warlords back.

All the same, I do not support piracy or the pirates who engage in it. I also doubt if they are using the money they get from it to build some sort of workers paradise. Unfortunately, there's no easy way to undo the mistakes of the past or to remedy things now.

[Threedifferentones]

45. Sigh

Wish this thread would get more attention. I mostly lurk at DU, but this issue has caught my interest. Violence begets violence, and the sad fact of the matter is that the leading economies in the world are the best at dishing it out. So, when citizens of those countries finally feel the violence and desperation our armies and "intelligence" agencies carried out to get us rich, I have torn sympathies.

Of course criminals should generally not be cheered. But, do people not realize why "thugs" like Bonnie and Clyde were once idolized by poor people here? Liberal people here often recognize that by treating workers like shit we create poor, desperate neighborhoods where crime is rampant. We further recognize that the people who made things this way are somewhat responsible when we are robbed.

Why is it so hard to discuss this issue at an international level on DU? Why is a famous case of piracy a bad time to bring up the role Europeans and Americans played in creating the mess that is Somalia? Yes it's great the captain was rescued, but ultimately the way to curb these issues is not through violence, but rather by making Somalia peaceful and prosperous. Freeing the captain is only a short term solution, and hence should only be cheered a little bit.

"But someone's LIFE was at stake!"

Yeah, billions of people's lives are at stake in the global economy America has shaped. That's why it is so much more important to talk about.

[ShareTheWoods]

49. Zero. In fact, a negative amount if anything.

We have given them help rather than take anything from them.

And make a living through violence against innocent people is a non starter. Maybe as a cop against those
that would harm others is a possibility.

[HamdenRice]

61. "We have given them help rather than take anything from them" - Oh really?

What kind of help do you recall the US providing Somalia in the 1980s when it was ruled by a brutal dictator?

Did we get "nothing" in return? Please elaborate.

When Somalia's government collapsed in the late 80s, and the clans armed themselves and turned into militias, where do you thing all those weapons -- AK 47s, rocket launchers, 50 caliber machine guns, etc. -- came from?

[ShareTheWoods]

62. Since when did the USA manufacture AK47s ?

The US has sent numerous aid and medical/food supplies there.

No, you elaborate on what we have received in return. I can't elaborate on zero.

Where do I think "all those weapons" like AK 47s and RPGs etc came from? USSR, Russia etc of course.

Yes. Really.

[HamdenRice]

63. Historical illiteracy means never having to discuss actual facts

The food aid that the US briefly sent in the early 90s pales compared to the military aid that the US sent there from the Carter administration through the Bush I administration, because Somalia was fighting "communist" Ethiopia. Hundreds of millions of dollars in military hardware which the dictator Siad Barre used to slaughter other Somalis. The Somalis knew this and when the Barre regime collapsed, they were not amused.

In exchange the US received bases in Somalia. We did not give that murderous aid out of the goodness of our hearts.

As for AK-47s, I hope you can grasp the idea that paying for a weapon is different from manufacturing it. The AK-47 was simply the best military assault weapon ever produced for rough third world conditions, and although we outfitted our own troops with our own rifles, when we had to pay for the murderous rampages of third world dictators or fake "freedom fighters" like the contras, we paid for what they wanted -- in Somalia's case, AK-47s.

No one -- no credible mainstream media source -- denies that the US paid hundreds of millions in military aid to the dictator Siad Barre, before his inevitable collapse and the resulting angry Somali anti-Americanism.

Why do you insist on a make-believe history of Somalia? Why are you defending the Reagan administration's policy in the horn of Africa?

Your sentence, "I can't elaborate on zero" should be modified to read, "I can't elaborate on a situation I have zero knowledge about that I nevertheless confidently pontificate on."

[ShareTheWoods]

67. Your support of communism in Ethiopia left them starving

And your lame attempt to paint me with the reagan brush has added to the vacuum of your reply.

Having a US base was for their benefit, not ours. Had the communists not insisted on forcing their sickness
down the throats of their victims and offered food instead of death, peace would be closer than it is now.

You could have connected me with Carter instead of reagan but no, the low shot was just too tempting. Very telling.

[HamdenRice]

68. "Your support of communism"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Can't I get through one day on DU without an encounter with rank stupidity?

[ShareTheWoods]

72. makes as much sense as your reagan quip at me

rotfl

[HamdenRice]

73. The truth of the Reagan clip was in your rown posts

which wrongly say that we gave them food and medicine and asked for nothing in return.

I never stated anything that supported the communist government in Ethiopia.

All you had to do was say, gee, I didn't know that we gave them arms for bases.

And, btw, the bases had nothing to do with helping them. The bases were for countering the Soviets.

[JoseGaspar]

You should do some research.

The U.S. has been a major provider of both Eastern European (including Russian) and Chinese "AK-47s" and RPGs since the Angolan Civil War. Some of the Somalian arms came from the old Somali military. Most of them were "made in Langley" (figuratively, not literally).

[bridgit]

54. I wonder how much Somali warlords, arms dealers & tribal factions blame the west...

for the state they're in cause they're sitting on one of the busiest trade lanes in the world. They're using the wrong approach clearly. They say they want any ransom to feed themselves...but the Maersk Alabama was carrying food aid to Kenya. They should have brought her into a Somali port and off loaded the food stuffs oh that's right...they want money, money for what again? To update and improve their port operations? To send out the president of the Somali Chamber of Commerce next time maybe cut a deal get things going? They seem disinclined toward any such. They seem more inclined to enhance their operations *as* pirates: better communications, more attack vessels, weapons, apprehensions and random chaos.

Everyone is pissed at the west that's a given; but Somali warlords, arms dealers & tribal factions are seen as key cause they are the ones setting the pace currently. They have some of the most to benefit from way the things are, from criminal enterprise. Piracy is a criminal enterprise

[BlooInBloo]

55. Approximately all.

[On the Road]

56. They Were a Soviet Client State During Most of the 70s and 80s

I frankly don't know how much influence the West had on Somalia. You have to go back to post-WWII to get examples of state-changing influence.

[HamdenRice]

59. More history down the memory hole. Somalia's dictator was a US not Soviet client

The US paid for the horrific dictatorship of Said Barre, not the Soviets.

It's easy to get confused, however, because both the Soviets and US were so cynical, as were their clients, that they sometimes switched sides, as occurred in the horn of Africa.

Historically, Ethiopia, a conservative monarchy, was a US ally. Ethiopia and Somalia were enemies because of the disputed Ogaden region. So Somalia turned to the Soviets for support. Also, Barre claimed to be a socialist.

Ethiopia's king Haile Selassie was overthrown by a communist coup. The US ceased support for Ethiopia and Ethiopia began receiving millions in military aid from the Soviets.

Somalia switched sides during the Carter administration, and sought US assistance. Both Carter and Reagan provided millions in military assistance which Barre used to suppress and slaughter his own people, in exchange for certain Somalian naval bases.

It was the collapse of the Barre regime because of popular disgust that led to the anarchy of the early 90s, and Bush I's so-called "Operation Restore Hope," which led to Clinton's disastrous "Blackhawk Down."

So yes, we had lots of influence in the form of supplying the guns that made Barre such a horrific dictator.

[On the Road]

65. Yes,

I should have said that they were a Soviet client for most of the 70s, but not the 80s. When they attacked Ethiopia, another Soviet ally, in the Ogaden war, their relations with Russia soured. In 1981, they became a US ally.

Following the 1977-1978 Ogaden war, desperate to find a strong external alliance to replace the Soviet Union, Somalia abandoned its Socialist ideology and turned to the West for international support, military equipment, and economic aid. In 1978, the United States reopened the U.S. Agency for International Development mission in Somalia. Two years later, an agreement was concluded that gave U.S. forces access to military facilities at the port of Berbera in northwestern Somalia. In the summer of 1982, Ethiopian forces invaded Somalia along the central border, and the United States provided two emergency airlifts to help Somalia defend its territorial integrity. From 1982 to 1988, the United States viewed Somalia as a partner in defense in the context of the Cold War. Somali officers of the National Armed Forces were trained in U.S. military schools in civilian as well as military subjects. ¹

Siad Barre, however, was not an American-installed dictator like a lot of third-world leaders. He took power because of internal politics, and had been there for about a decade when he became a US client.

In June 1961, Somalia adopted its first national constitution in a countrywide referendum, which provided for a democratic state with a parliamentary form of government based on European models....Under the leadership of Ibrahim Egal (prime minister from 1967 to 1969), however, Somalia renounced its claims to the Somali-populated regions of Ethiopia and Kenya, greatly improving its relations with both countries. Egal attempted a similar approach with Ethiopia, but the move towards reconciliation with Ethiopia, which had been a traditional enemy of Somalia since the 16th century, made many Somalis furious, including the army. Egal's reconciliation effort toward Ethiopia is argued to be one of the principal factors that provoked a bloodless coup on October 21, 1969 and subsequent installation of Maj. Gen. Mohamed Siad Barre as president, bringing an abrupt end to the process of party-based constitutional democracy in Somalia.^ibid

Like a lot of African countries, the seeds of disorder in Somalia were sown during the colonial period and the way the tribal areas were divided. That's what I was saying about post-WWII.

But nothing that I've seen suggests that the US or Europe is responsible for destroying or suppressing the Somali economy.

[JANdad]

58. In a word....

NONE!

[cboy4]

69. I can't say I wouldn't try it if I was desperate...But I would also

know, if snipers shot me in the head, those are the breaks.

[DevonRex]

75. +1. Couldn't have said it better.

[The2ndWheel]

70. We're only comparatively affluent and comfortable because of violence

It's just always been a race for which gang is able to monopolize the violence. Then governments can be constructed and function. Then commerce can commence.

[mainegreen]

71. not much. I blame local clan issues and a history between Eithiopia and Somali clans.

And let's face it: the pirates are not operating out of a lawless country anyways.

They operate out of Puntland.

[Raineyb]

74. And who exacerbated these issues? n/t

[mainegreen]

76. Ethiopia.

Well them, and Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi funding nutters.

[Raineyb]

77. Ethopia. The country BUSH encouraged to invade?

Bloody hell the ignorance is painful!

[mainegreen]

78. If you think Bush caused Ethiopia to invade, then yes, the ignorance is painful.

The history there goes back a long way.

[HamdenRice]

79. There is zero disagreement in mainstream sources that the US financed, directed the invasion

There were even US special forces "directing" Ethiopian forces. This is not really a matter of debate at all.

The Bush administration was pretty open about it as a front of the "war on terror" because the Somali government called itself the "Islamic Courts Movement."

[mainegreen]

80. Lets be clear: Eithiopia and Somalia are mutually hostile.

We did not convince Ethiopia to invade. It was something they already wanted to do. At most, we caused it to happen earlier than it would have.

We are not the man behind the curtain in this. No amount of "U.S. BAD" will change what the primary agent for the military incursion was: ancient clan rivalries.

[HamdenRice]

81. Sources?

Or did you just make this up?

And where pray tell would a government like Ethiopia get the resources to wage that war in 2006, and just what were the American special forces then doing, just observing?

Do you have any links that show that the consensus view of reality is wrong?

[mainegreen]

82. Good grief. Ten seconds of research will confirm this. Or try reading the news once in a while.

As I have no intention of writing a thesis to disprove your assertion of 'consensus', especially when there is no proof of consensus provided.

So please, feel free to believe what you want. Or, why not pick up a history book on the Horn of Africa. The history there is very interesting.

[HamdenRice]

83. Translation: You don't know what the fuck you are talking about ...

and won't do the "research" because a 10 second google would show you to be completely and utterly wrong. But you'll continue huffing and bluffing and stick to your bizarro universe version of the Ethiopia-Somalia invasion.

We in the reality based community will stick to consensus reality on the topic. Is there any non-insane source you can point to to refute these mainstream sources and Bush administration admissions?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-01-07-ethiopia_x.htm

U.S. support key to Ethiopia's invasion

By Barbara Slavin, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON — The United States has quietly poured weapons and military advisers into Ethiopia, whose recent invasion of Somalia opened a new front in the Bush administration's war on terrorism.

A Christian-led nation in sub-Saharan Africa, surrounded almost entirely by Muslim states, Ethiopia has received nearly $20 million in U.S. military aid since late 2002. That's more than any country in the region except Djibouti.

Last month, thousands of Ethiopian troops invaded neighboring Somalia and helped overturn a fundamentalist Islamic government that the Bush administration said was supported by al-Qaeda.

The U.S. and Ethiopian militaries have "a close working relationship," Pentagon spokesman Lt. Cmdr. Joe Carpenter said. The ties include intelligence sharing, arms aid and training that gives the Ethiopians "the capacity to defend their borders and intercept terrorists and weapons of mass destruction," he said.

Advisers from the Guam national guard have been training Ethiopians in basic infantry skills at two camps in Ethiopia, said Maj. Kelley Thibodeau, a spokeswoman for U.S. forces in Djibouti.

There are about 100 U.S. military personnel currently working in Ethiopia, Carpenter said.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Somalia_(2006-present)

The War in Somalia has been an armed conflict involving largely Ethiopian and Somali Transitional Federal Government (TFG) forces and Somali troops from Puntland versus the Somali Islamist umbrella group, the Islamic Court Union (ICU), and other affiliated militias for control of the country. The war officially began shortly before July 20, 2006 when U.S. backed Ethiopian troops invaded Somalia to prop up the TFG in Baidoa<18>. The TFG in Somalia invited Ethiopians to intervene, which became an "unpopular decision" that failed to strengthen the government. <19> Subsequently the leader of the ICU, Sheik Hassan Dahir Aweys, declared "Somalia is in a state of war, and all Somalis should take part in this struggle against Ethiopia".<20> On December 24, Ethiopia stated it would actively combat the ICU.<21>

[mainegreen]

85. You do realize that the link to wikipedia promotes my view more than yours, don't you?

Selective highlighting of part of one sentence does not negate the entire rest of the article.

Here's another part of the article:

Historic background

Wars between Somalia, or its precursor Islamic states, and Ethiopia, stretch back to 16th century. For example, Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi was a 16th century Islamic leader popular in Somali culture for his jihad against the Ethiopians during the rise of the Adal Sultanate. The painful living history, oral and cultural traditions, long-standing ethnic divisions and sectarian differences lay a foundation of conflict between the two nations.

More recently, boundary disputes over the Ogaden region date to the 1948 settlement when the land was granted to Ethiopia. Somali disgruntlement with this decision has led to repeated attempts to invade Ethiopia with the hopes of taking control of the Ogaden to create a Greater Somalia. This plan would have reunited the Somali people of the Ethiopian-controlled Ogaden with those living in the Republic of Somalia. These ethnic and political tensions have caused cross-border clashes over the years.

* 1960–1964 Border Dispute
* 1977–1978 Ogaden War
* 1982 August Border Clash<37><38>
* 1998–2000 Cross-border warfare during the chaotic warlord-led era.<39>

While it is true the ICU made threats to carry the war into Ethiopia, the circumstances referred to were in part due to prior Ethiopian actions in response to historical conflicts in the region. Before proxy wars between Ethiopia and Eritrea began in the late 1990s, ICU was helping rebels inside Eastern Ethiopia against the Ethiopian government. Thus Ethiopia's involvement in Somalia had begun months before, with the intercession of forces to support the establishment of the transitional government, and to support other regional governments considered more acceptable to Ethiopia so that ICU won't be able to support more insurgents inside Eastern Ethiopia.<40>

Also try this article on wikipedia, since we are using that fount of unbiased fact:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Court_Union#Eritrean_assistance

Eritrean assistance

According to the United Nations and various sources, the Eritrean government has armed and financed the ICU for many years.<6> Together (according to a 1999 BBC report) with some Ethiopian opposition groups such as the OLF, Eritrea sent "shiploads" of arms to the ICU and other rebels in Southern Somalia; it was also reported that the Eritrean government had sent "advisers" and "engineers and mine-laying experts."<7> After many denials from the Eritrean government, Islamic Courts Union leader Aweys admitted that the Eritrean government had been assisting the ICU;<6> although there was no mention of Eritrean troops or advisers. After the Somali transitional government defeated the Islamists and took Mogadishu, the Somali Prime Minister alleged that Eritrean soldiers had been captured in Mogadishu.<8> Further Eritrean fighters were allegedly killed by Somali security officers in June 2007.<9> A governor of one of Somalia's southern districts also confirmed the continued alliance of Eritrean fighters with Al-Qaeda & ICU militants.<10>

According to the Los Angeles Times, various ICU fighters were caught as they tried to escape to Eritrea. Many of the ICU leadership and jihadist leaders are believed to have found refuge in Eritrea.

Other Foreign fighters

Various foreign fighters were said to be helping the ICU. As suicide bombing tactics are rare even among extremist Somali Muslims, the use of such bombers suggested deeper foreign jihadist assistance. In January, Somali sources said they had defeated or arrested many Arab fighters.<11> In June, numerous foreign pro-ICU fighters were detected trying to flee in boats from the Puntland region; the regional governor told the media that the Islamist fighters had arrived to cause trouble and that Puntland troops were searching for them.<12> The U.S. military also targeted other jihadist and Al-Qaeda cells, particularly those affiliated with the bombers of the U.S. embassy in Kenya in 1998.<13> The BBC reported a Pentagon claim that a senior Al-Qaeda member associated with the ICU had been captured in Somalia and transferred to the US military prison in Guantanamo Bay.<14><15>

Or even more fun, lets read about the Adal Sultanate, one of the sources of the real conflict between the current Eithiopia and the ICU:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adal_Sultanate

Very interesting! Note that the United States did not cause these hostilities. They already existed! since before the United States existed!

LOL. PWNT.

[HamdenRice]

86. All irrelevant flak. You are dead wrong.

No one said that Ethiopia and Somalia have not had conflicts in the past. The question is whether the US backed and financed the 2006 invasion.

No one credible denies that.

Your statement, "If you think Bush caused Ethiopia to invade, then yes, the ignorance is painful" is dead wrong.

The CNN article explains clearly that Bush saw the Ethiopian invasion, which he had our government finance and lead, was a front on our war on terror.

Why you have invested yourself in a bogus false factoid is puzzling.

[mainegreen]

87. And I restate: Bush did not cause Ethiopia to invade.

He funded it. That is not causation. Not in light of historical context.
Additionally, that funding is NOT the cause of Somalia's current instability.
Ethiopia has shown it has the financial capacity to wage wars on it's own. It's done so since the 90's against Enitrea. ICU is more a pawn between the two.

Did we have something to gain? Certainly. We certainly provided a bit of prodding between two (arguably three) groups ready to fight already. Groups that were already fighting minor battles. I have NOT stated otherwise. I haven't denied we provided funds.

We are NOT the prime movers here, though. I stand by that opinion.

[HamdenRice]

88. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion; everyone is not entitled to their own facts

Ethiopia, like some of the other very poorest countries, has almost no budgetary discretion. In other words, it does not tax and spend like other countries. Almost all its funds come from donors, and they in turn tell the government what to do and what not to do. It cannot just "decide" to invade another country. It doesn't have the resources.

Ethiopia invaded Somalia because it was told to do so by the Bush administration, because Somalia was taken over by an Islamic movement. The Bush administration openly admitted this and claimed it as a victory in the "war on terror." This is not "opinion". This is documented fact.

But you're entitled to your opinion, just as some people have, and are entitled to, the opinion that evolution did not take place and humans co-existed with dinosaurs. Just don't state your "opinion" as "fact."

[mainegreen]

90. Nice straw man.

Arguing that Ethiopia does not have the money to wage wars is like arguing North Korea does not have the money to build nuclear reactors. Of course it has the money to fight a group like the ICU.

Ethiopia has engaged in fighting with neighbors without our help in the last twenty years. This is provable fact. Documented fact.

Did Ethiopia take our money? Sure. That however does not mean that they did not intend to, nor want to fight the ICU already. There has been no proof provided that Ethiopia was forced to attack the ICU. I've argued that they already wanted to. There is evidence to back that up in links you've provided, as well as links I've provided. Who's to say who was using who?

Also, your attempt to align my view with anti-evolution groups, and thus claim your ground as fact is usually a very weak position to take. Hence the 'nice straw man', for that is what he is.

Again, I'd argue based on the facts available, that we do not appear to be the primary causes of instability in Somalia.

[Raineyb]

89. Thank you.

For a minute I thought I was in the mirror mirror universe.

[HamdenRice]

96. We're not living in a mirror universe, but apparently someone else is. nt

[pampango]

91. Ask some Zimbabweans. Nobody is poorer than them. They are lawless, unless you consider

Bob Mugabe's law as real law. Violent gangs (Bob's) rule. Do they have pirates?

One difference may be that Somalia is the NRA's dream come true. Everyone has a gun and not just a silly pistol or rifle. They have real firepower. In Zimbabwe Bob is pretty careful not to let too many people get their hands on guns. That would not be good for his own profit making potential.

[HamdenRice]

95. "Do they have pirates?" Uh, they don't have a coast...

unless you count Lake Kariba. Hence no ocean going boats. Hence no piracy.

I agree though that Zimbabweans (other than Mugabe's goons) are remarkably law abiding and have struggled through political and legal means to regain their country.

That said, poverty did indeed drive many Zimbabweans into activities every bit as destructive and unlawful as Somali piracy. These activities included using the cover of "military assistance" to loot the resources of Congo, and on a more individual level, poaching, especially the endangered rhinos of Zimbabwe's magnificent game parks.

The willingness of some unemployed people to hire themselves out as Mugabe's gang members is itself very analogous to the willingness of young Somalis to be pirates for hire.

[Deja Q]

92. Become slave driver, I suppose.

I still like to think there are plenty of career paths other than the two you mentioned...

[Bluerthanblue]

99. if 'we' were really honest with ourselves, we'd

have to own some of the responsibility.

'We' bombed the hell out of Afganistan in 2001. We killed scores of innocent people. We did this by CHOICE. But we did it with.... 'justification' as a response to what was done to 'us' on 9/11.

Strange how doing terrible things can be justified when the person doing them makes their case. In our case, we strut around the world dictating how other countries should behave- but we break the 'rules' or twist to suit our will. (much less strut under Obama, and much more accountability I gotta say)

That story about Mayor LaGuardia comes to mind. The one where he was a night court judge..:

THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD One bitterly cold night in January of 1935, the mayor (New York Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia) turned up at a night court that served the poorest ward of the city. LaGuardia dismissed the judge for the evening and took over the bench himself. Within a few minutes, a tattered old woman was brought before him, charged with stealing a loaf of bread. She told LaGuardia that her daughter's husband had deserted her, her daughter was sick, and her two grandchildren were starving.But the shopkeeper, from whom the bread was stolen, refused to drop the charges. “It's a real bad neighborhood, Your Honor,” the man told the mayor. “She's got to be punished to teach other people around here a lesson.”LaGuardia sighed. He turned to the woman and said, “I've got to punish you. The law makes no exceptions. Ten dollars or ten days in jail.” But even as he pronounced sentence, the mayor was already reaching into his pocket. He extracted a bill and tossed it into his famous hat, saying, “Here is the ten dollar fine which I now remit; and furthermore, I am going to fine everyone in this courtroom fifty cents for living in a town where a person has to steal bread so that her grandchildren can eat. Mr. Bailiff, collect the fines and give them to the defendant.”The following day, New York City newspapers reported that $47.50 was turned over to a bewildered woman who had stolen a loaf of bread to feed her starving grandchildren. Fifty cents of that amount was contributed by the grocery store owner himself, while some seventy petty criminals, people with traffic violations, and New York City policemen, each of whom had just paid fifty cents for the privilege of doing so, gave the mayor a standing ovation.

Annon.

Maybe it's just a legend- no one really knows, but it is true in the most important sense of the word.


We are all connected- and our actions have impact beyond 'just- US'.