Are there *really* flame wars going on after that rescue?

[WilliamPitt]

I've been gone all weekend, so I'm late to the party, but Jesus.

Is it me, or has this place kinda been swarming with shitheads lately? I'm not directing that at anyone specifically, because I've been the shithead some of the time, but again, Jesus.

A guy gets taken hostage by fuckin'-fa-chrissakes pirates. It escalates into a larger situation. The president gave authorization for the use of force if it was deemed the hostage's life was being threatened. The pirates - who, by the way, forefitted their lives when they took up fuckin'-fa-chrissakes piracy for a living and then took a person hostage at gunpoint, sorry, you're volunteering for a bullet from somebody when you do that - swung an automatic weapon at the hostage, and they got their lights turned out by some Navy SEALS firing from the fantail of an American warship.

No non-combatants or civilians were killed. Or wounded. Or scratched. Or lightly bruised. Or bumped into. Not. One.

The president didn't carpet-bomb Somalia, nor did he invade a nation that had nothing to do with the situation, nor did he bluster, nor did he fail to act. Three fuckin'-fa-chrissakes pirates died how they lived: in violence. Their hostage is going home, and on Easter Sunday to boot. Not bad for his family and friends.

As for the hype, of course this was hyped. Gunplay between pirates and Navy SEALS on the high seas? The rescue of a hostage? No collateral damage? This is going to be a God damned made-for-TV-movie before the sun comes up. They'll call it "Wham And Splatter," and you know what? I'm watching it.

How is this not a no-brainer? Seriously.

[graywarrior]

1. There are several no-brainers who post here

[TahitiNut]

6. Hey!

It's being dry-cleaned!

:dunce:

[graywarrior]

10. Liar. I saw it pole dancing

[TahitiNut]

40. That wasn't a pole.

That was a Ukrainian. :dunce:

[graywarrior]

112. Whoa....my mistake.

[Bucky]

169. Don't worry. It wasn't really dancing either.

Oh God, all those two dollar bills... gone... gone for nothing. *sob*

[Stephanie]

2. Yes

The place is swarming with shitheads.

[blue neen]

3. I'm watching it, too.

Yeah, and you're right about the shitheads. :thumbsup:

[Ikonoklast]

4. Only the posters that have another agenda.

They will use any reason to denigrate the actions of the current president.

[mmonk]

5. With you on that.

The situation really isn't something to complain about or dwell on.

[TwilightZone]

7. Yes.

We have the "we should never resort to violence" faction and the "it wasn't a big deal" group. Both are rather vocal at the moment.

[Gregorian]

8. I declare a time out! And some music.

I've been sucked in to the Youtube quicksand. It's great over here. Want to listen? It's 1955.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juuN7_rTBDo&feature=related

[Aqaba]

9. Word.

There are bad guys in this world, and tonight there are three less of them.

Stunning precision, three simultaneous head shots. Can you even freaking imagine how that really played out on the scene?

The movie is going to need some music, and I suggest they steal the new Star Trek music from this trailer.

Star Trek 11 Trailer

[EFerrari]

11. Because the objection was to posters drooling over carnage

just like some always do when someone is going to be executed or when someone is offed by cops in lieu of trial.

No one was defending pirates or slamming a well done mission or the rescue of the captain guy.

That's how.

[Lisa0825]

16. Stop making sense. nt

:hippie:

[EFerrari]

20. I love DU. We'll defend our stuff to the edge of reason and 'way over it!

:hippie:

[LynnTheDem]

27. Thank you. Although you and I and a slew of other DUers are just "shitheads"

because we find drooling over the carnage to be a tasteless tacky sick thing to do.

After all, Jesus would have danced on their graves. Or would He have been labelled a "shithead" too? :shrug:

[EFerrari]

33. America hating, pirate coddling malcontents who hate the troops.

I must have missed that "Learn to enjoy severed limbs and blood on the water" film in 8th grade PE. lol

[LynnTheDem]

42. And hoping for the US to fail, you forgot that part.

To think we are constantly amazed at how the rightwingnuts can twist shit into unrecognizable shapes...!

But I remember just before the (illegal immoral) invasion of Iraq of which I was vehemently opposed to, how several DUers called me a "Saddam-lover". So no surprise, really, that those of us happy the captain was rescued with no naval casualties yet at the same time able to feel pity for the 3 dead pirates are now called "pirate-lovers", "America-haters" and "shitheads". :shrug:

[EFerrari]

53. Too bad we don't have enough groupthink at DU.

:)

[ddeclue]

60. The pirates are NOT deserving of "pity" or "sympathy"

they forfeited that when they became PIRATES.

:argh:

[LynnTheDem]

69. Nobody ever "forfeits" pity.

I pity the choice of life made by the 3 pirates -and anyone else who lives such a life. I pity the waste of their lives. I pity whatever they could have been & done for the good. I pity their loved ones and the grief they must be feeling.

And had I been the one having to make the decision, I would have ordered the snipers to take the shots when and if they had the chance, had there been no other options available to save the victim.

And afterwards, I would still have pitied the 3 dead pirates.

[ddeclue]

70. OF COURSE THEY DO... SHAME ON YOU.

[LynnTheDem]

73. Feeling pity is never a cause for shame.

In fact, the opposite.

[ddeclue]

75. When pity isn't deserved of COURSE it is.

:puke:

[LynnTheDem]

83. There is never any shame in feeling pity for others.

Even for the worst of society.

[TwilightZone]

84. Best of luck.

When I was told that we should feel compassion and pity for the likes of Hitler, Stalin, and Timothy McVeigh, I decided that I must be living in a different reality.

[LynnTheDem]

86. Compassion? Ehhhh not so much.

Pity? Yes, I can feel pity for them.

[TwilightZone]

90. Pity and compassion are synonyms.

You know that, right?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pity


Synonyms:
1. commiseration, compassion. See sympathy.

[LynnTheDem]

91. There's a nuanced difference between the two.

Compassion = "feeling sorry with" versus pity = "feeling sorry for".


It's a Dalai Lama thing.

[TwilightZone]

122. There isn't a single definition for "pity" that would apply to Timothy McVeigh.

None.

[chimpyisstillsatan]

179. what a failure of the imagination. How sad. nt

[EFerrari]

92. What legalistic bs. So, tell me, how inured to the loss of human life

does one have to be to satisfy you?

That's just creepy on multiple levels. If you don't empathize with your opponents, your allies lose. But understanding that requires thought and stuff.

[TwilightZone]

123. Empathize? With Timothy McVeigh?

Hitler? Stalin?

This place just keeps getting funnier.

[EFerrari]

145. When you lose the ability to relate to other people

you're well on your way to being a Republican.

[arcadian]

212. No doubt.

Uh, hello, wasn't it Hitler's and Stalin's inability to feel empathy towards other human beings the thing that made them monsters in the first place? The disconnect on this board is astounding.

[Raineyb]

136. I call Godwin's law.

You lose.

Seriously, you're equating the pirates with Hitler, Stalin, and McVeigh?

I think you need some perspective.

[Orsino]

114. Fortunately, pity itsn't always tied to how deserving someone is.

There are pirates, and there are pirates. We might feel a tiny bit more pity for a Somali pirate, who had rather fewer choices in life than did, say, a Dick Cheney.

[chimpyisstillsatan]

176. Does the same thing go for teen drug dealers?

line 'em up and shoot 'em?

[tavalon]

191. Goodness, I can't keep up!

I thought the people championing the blow 'em up mentality were the shitheads.

[cali]

103. some of the objections were to posters being bloodthirsty. Other objections

certainly were about justifying the pirates' actions.

[sufrommich]

131. "drooling over carnage"

That's not hyperbole.:eyes:

[Raineyb]

137. Sadly you are so right about that.

:(

[EFerrari]

142. Not by much, no. n/t

[pnwmom]

153. Actually, some have been defending the pirates.

I saw one recent post comparing the pirates to American revolutionaries.

[EFerrari]

157. That must be the ghost of Ronald Raygun.

:)

[Catch22Dem]

12. Will, I was just telling my better half that I don't hang out here much anymore

You nailed it. Lots of shitheads and odd motives around here. Unlike you, I'm almost ALWAYS the shithead, and even I'm outgunned these days.

I thank you for this post though. You didn't miss a beat. Well done.

[tomp]

101. you're mistaken.

will is a shithead.

[Beaverhausen]

13. not only that, but we have dog-adoption outrage here today

The Obamas didn't adopt the dog before getting the approval of some DUers.

[TwilightZone]

29. Some of those threads are completely insane.

I've been on DU a long time, and some of those dog threads are as over-the-top as I've ever seen this place get.

[polmaven]

106. No SIR!!!!

Well, if that is really the case, then that's IT! I'm THROUGH with him....No DU approval? How DARE he?

[ddeclue]

14. What WILL said!

I am not worthy!

I've been trying to make the very same point myself most of the afternoon and evening.

:wow:

[WilliamPitt]

17. You have to make more use

of "fuckin'-fa-chrissakes" in your arguments. Always seems to make the difference for me.

;)

:toast:

[Marrah_G]

110. I prefer "Oh for fuck's sake"

[hlthe2b]

15. We've had "Pirate" trolls here all weekend.... desperate to

paint Obama as "weak." Sadly they've pulled in a few regular DUers in the wake. So now, we are seeing the "save face" mode.

[Posteritatis]

22. Don't forget the ones painting the pirates as glorious eco-crusaders (nt)

[opihimoimoi]

34. Them Pirates never ever demanded a cessation of toxic dumping or bottom net fishing...did they?

Its was for money...to date they got about 130 million DOLLARS $$$ and were pressing for more...

3 lost their heads over the weekend...who gives a rats ass.

[Stephanie]

82. I believe they wanted $2M for the captain

I guess it was to clean up the waterway...

[opihimoimoi]

95. They got cleaned out instead......sad ....but so predictable..Piracy soon baloons it self into

extinction....its in the History books....its a short Spiral.....

Sooner or later.....a lot of them pirates eat it or change jobs.....or..are retired...

[Prometheus Bound]

215. Actually, they did.

Somali pirates have accused European firms of dumping toxic waste off the Somali coast and are demanding an $8m ransom for the return of a Ukranian ship they captured, saying the money will go towards cleaning up the waste.

The ransom demand is a means of "reacting to the toxic waste that has been continually dumped on the shores of our country for nearly 20 years", Januna Ali Jama, a spokesman for the pirates, based in the semi-autonomous region of Puntland, said.

"The Somali coastline has been destroyed, and we believe this money is nothing compared to the devastation that we have seen on the seas."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2008/10/2008109174223218644.html

[hlthe2b]

38. Enough craziness to go around and for every "taste"...

:eyes:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

18. Yup. They're here.

Read all about it: The mean old U.S. Navy abused those poor innocent pirates who were forced to become pirates only because of water pollution, and all good liberals should be poutraged that a bunch of evil Navy Seal snipers actually shot at those poor pirates just because they were holding AK-47s at the head of an American capitalist running dog merchant ship captain.

Seriesly. I know the full moon was a few days ago, but there must be some kind of hangover.

Oh, by the way, the Obamas also adopted the wrong dog.

[WilliamPitt]

Nerf for brains

:eyes:

Hoo.

[slackmaster]

19. I had a great Easter, then came home, read a few threads here, and wish I hadn't bothered

The Stupid runs strong on DU this evening.

[proud patriot]

98. me too

one of the best easters ever . we cracked confetti filled eggs over each others
heads .A wonderful tradition here in Arizona . I'm on Spring Break right now in
Arizona visiting family . I'm on a laptop with out a mouse ....Happy Easter William.

Muchlove,

Trish

[Renew Deal]

21. Many of those cheering on the pirates or hoping that the US failed are sick fucks.

And sadly some of those people post on DU.

[EFerrari]

24. Drinking the Paas is not recommended. Says so right on the box.

:rofl:

[Bluebear]

47. ---

:spray:

[Bluebear]

46. Can you point to a thread "cheering on the pirates", please? Thanks.

[ddeclue]

62. How about?

The one telling us we're being lied to about the pirates?

or how about the one telling us they were "eco-crusaders"

:puke:

[endarkenment]

121. Can you point to a thread "cheering on the pirates", please? Thanks.

[Raineyb]

138. He can't because there wasn't one

Plenty of people fist pumping and drooling over the carnage though.

Regards

[walkaway]

23. Sorry, I think it's terrible to dance on anyone's grave

I understand that it was necessary to kill these men but I will never understand why some people keep cheering about it. Isn't it enough to be happy that the hostage has been rescued.

[ddeclue]

39. Sometimes its appropriate to dance on someone's grave...

This is one of those times.

[LynnTheDem]

44. It's never appropriate. Ever.

Or at least, not for anyone with any humanity whatsoever.


Images of dead American troops being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu were the beginning of the end for a U.S.-U.N. peacekeeping force which quit Somalia in 1995.


They were dancing. They, like you, felt that was appropriate.

I won't dance on anyone's grave.

[TwilightZone]

51. Never?

Timothy McVeigh?

How about Hitler? Stalin?

Never is a very long time. Dealing in absolutes is often a shaky proposition.

[LynnTheDem]

61. Never.

Without pity, there is no humanity.

[ddeclue]

65. Oh teh stupidity...

Some people have traded in their humanity for something else and become monsters - they don't deserve pity and it is shameful to offer it to them.

Shame on you.

:argh:

[LynnTheDem]

72. You are entitled to your opinion. I'm very happy with mine.

Pitying someone is never a cause for shame.

[Hugabear]

211. I'm sure the menacing communists who were threatening Grenada deserved their deaths

Don't think that I've forgotten how you were cheerleading Reagan's anti-commie propaganda. No surprise to see you in yet another "gung-ho, kill the bad guys" thread.

[Bluebear]

66. And look about you.

I fear for our future.


I'm thrilled the captain is rescued, but I've never seen as much disproportionate testosterone-fueled cheering in my life. Like it's some video game.

[EFerrari]

71. LIke Free Republic with nicer wallpaper. n/t

[tavalon]

188. I felt that fear when we went into Afghanistan and again, even more so,

when we went into Iraq. Somewhere in between, I took down my American Flag and hung a World Flag. As I cleaned the eggs off of my house (appears people weren't interested in being reminded of their world citizenry back then), I feared not for myself but for my nation. Then I got angry. I've pretty much stayed that way.

[Marrah_G]

111. I think it's great that you stand by your convictions.

Not being snarky, I mean that. I might not always agree, but at least you are consistent.

[LynnTheDem]

135. Thank you, Marrah_G.

My dad was a WWII vet, and it was he who taught me to see all sides and all the shades, that feeling compassion for even the worst of the worst of society is something that can never diminish one's self, and in fact makes one stronger.

I'd feel pity for a rabid dog.

As a human, I can feel no less towards other humans. Even the scum.

And when either are put down, I don't celebrate it.

[tavalon]

189. I concur

That a message of stop had to be written in blood is sad. They weren't innocent, whatever that means, but death is mostly the ugliest part of life.

[No More Bushbots]

149. I'm making it my life's mission

To urinate on Ronald Raygun's grave before I die.
And I'll not apologize to anyone for that.

[blondeatlast]

196. About the debates, I'm on your side--but it's never appropriate to celebrate a death, IMHO. nt

[stevedeshazer]

25. Dude.

There really are flamewars.

Carrying out a successful U.S. military operation is forbidden.

I don't get it, either. Well, actually, I do.

[liberalmuse]

26. Last night I read a post that suggested we bomb the pirates...

even if it meant we killed the captain. :wtf: :crazy:

It's probably the posts like that, and the ones that suggested we bomb the shit out of Somalia that some may have been objecting to.

IMO, President Obama and the Navy SEALs handled this situation beautifully!

[WilliamPitt]

28. Yeah, OK

My shitheads description apparently casts a wide net. Thanks for the update.

Bomb Somalia? Mmm...no.

:)

[Aqaba]

57. We absolutely need to bomb Somalia

...with food and medicine.

I just don't know where you left wingers get off! :)

[EFerrari]

30. Whooooop, there it is!

I guess some people just like to blow stuff and other people up.

[MUAD_DIB]

43. That first part sounds like FR troll-crazy-talk.

[Lisa0825]

45. I agree it was handled beautifully.

However, the deeper issues have not been solved, and kidnappings/hijackings will continue until the bigger picture is addressed. I don't excuse the pirates, but I do believe that the illegal dumping and fishing contributed to the rise of the pirates, and I don't think their power can be eliminated until that is addressed, since the Somali public mostly supports them. We need to find a way to deal with the big picture so that we don't have to continue to launch rescue missions, or try to kill them one by one (or as some prefer, bomb the whole country). However, because I want the underlying issues addressed, I am mocked.

[opihimoimoi]

31. They took a job where ya lose your heads once in awhile

:kick:

[Pirate Smile]

32. It is crazy that people find something to bitch about in this but, of course, they do.

:crazy:

[EFerrari]

35. But the "bitching" was about DU, not about the mission.

Which has been nicely displaced all day.

[bridgit]

36. yes, and yes it's not just a "no-brainer" it's a *brainer* for two reasons, 1)...

I knew Seals would be going in http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5430573&mesg_id=5430685 and, 2) If I can see things in advance it's a "no-brainer" by definition :dunce:

[A-Long-Little-Doggie]

37. Hey Will, there was a good one about how we are all racists on DU

because we are happy that the (black) pirates died and the (white) hostage was saved!! It didn't even cross my (racist) mind that that was why I was happy the captain was saved. Glad I read that post to clear this up for me.

:crazy: :wtf:

[Jennicut]

41. Nice. I really really feel for the people of Somalia

but not Pirates who kidnap people and put them trough psychological torture. Who wants an AK-47 pointed at their backs and spending days with people who could kill you any moment?
The pirates did not respect the human life of another individual. We did what we had to do to save an innocent and by all accounts good man.

[LynnTheDem]

49. Agreed.

But does that mean we should be thumping our chests over the corpses? Dance on their graves?

Remember the dancing and dragging of the corpses of the US troops down the streets? An image I will never forget, and I'll be damned if I ever for anything or anyone act in such a manner myself.

But apparently for that I'm now a "shithead".

[Jennicut]

58. I don't think anyone is "dancing" about it. They are happy the captain was saved

and that Obama was decisive in his actions.
Or at least I hope that. Killing and violence are the terrible price paid from the hell that Somalia has turned into and what people there will resort to to make money.
By the way, my father in law said that Indonesia and some of the islands around there have similar problems with Pirates and that the Aussies have been dealing with this for a long time. I need to look more into that. Its a world wide issue now for sure.

[LynnTheDem]

64. *I* am happy the captain was saved. But I'm a "shithead"

and various other names tossed at me today, because I can also feel pity for the dead and refuse to cheer their deaths.

And oh yes, some are most definitely "dancing".

[Jennicut]

77. Yeah, I don't like the names being tossed about.

Everyone needs to chill.

[tomp]

102. no, no...

...if will pitt says you're a shithead, you're a shithead, and need to be kneecapped by the du mafia wiseguys.

[Beaverhausen]

88. but are you accusing others of dancing on the pirates graves simply because we are happy...

...that Phillips was freed unhurt? Like you said, we can indeed be happy about that and still feel some sympathy for the situation in Somalia that has created these pirates.

I have yet to see any grave dancing.

[LynnTheDem]

89. No. I am accusing others of dancing on their graves because they

were and are dancing on their graves.

Happy Easter!

[Flying Dream Blues]

148. Troll city, huh? nt

[Carni]

48. Sooo--people are pissed that the bird says No? lol

I haven't followed this issue on DU this weekend, but I am gathering that there have been pissy posts about the kidnappers/terrorists (pirates) being pegged off... how unfair/unjust bla bla bla bla bla-- because they were oppressed (bla bla bla BLA BLA)

This place is either whacked out lately -- OR there are free republic writers here trying to make people look stupid.

Boo hoo for the pirates (NOT)

[arcadian]

50. I thought you were a peace activist.

I was wrong. :-(

[rug]

52. They were fuckin'-fa-chrissakes pirates.

[EFerrari]

56. And they ask for plastic bags at Safeway.

[arcadian]

63. There still could have been a peaceful resolution.

They sent FBI negotiators.

[ddeclue]

67. They had quite enough time to give up.

There is only decision for them left to make: Give up or die. They chose to die.

We are under no obligation to go on forever with this bullshit when they are pointing guns and threatening to kill people.

Shoot. Them. DEAD.

[Uzybone]

78. True, the AK-47 could have jammed

when they pulled the trigger at Captain Phillips head. After all they hadn't yet killed him. They only had the gun to his head.

[cali]

104. And how the fuck would you know, arrmchair general?

[doctor jazz]

105. You probably shouldn't smoke that shit.

...

[chrisa]

126. They were about to kill the hostage. nt

[chimpyisstillsatan]

177. and Saddam was an immediate threat to world peace...

why are people buying this story line without question? Is this DU or a freakin' pep rally?

[Alexander]

182. When someone points a loaded AK-47 at you, then you can talk.

Until then, your opinion is worthless, and you're just a pirate apologist.

[chimpyisstillsatan]

195. Do I know you?

It's pretty damned easy to question my bravery and dedication to nonviolence from behind that keyboard. It's also easy to be a rube.

Are you an always an apologist for the military, or is "Punk" a full time job?

[Alexander]

199. Nope. But I know your posts have been supportive of piracy.

That makes you an idiot.

[chimpyisstillsatan]

203. as I suspected. .. Punk ,all the way. nt

[WilliamPitt]

54. Yup.

You were.

I worked for years to thwart an unnecessary war that would kill untold numbers of civilians and soldiers.

I am not a pacifist.

[LynnTheDem]

59. It's ok to cheer the deaths of "evil-doers".

It's not ok to feel pity for them.

Although when others see us as the "evil-doers", it's not ok for them to cheer our deaths or feel pity for our dead.

Jesus was a peace activist, and he cheered evil-doers' deaths.

No really.

[ddeclue]

68. Jesus opened a can of whoop ass on the money changers in the temple...

:P

[rug]

74. And then he shot them in the head.

[ddeclue]

76. He also said they who live by the sword shall die by it.

:P

Guess you missed that verse.

[arcadian]

79. Ummm, right back atcha?

:shrug:

[rug]

80. It applies to both sides.

Guess you missed that.

[Hannah Bell]

128. guess that would apply equally to the US, funding conflict in somalia

for many long years.

[muryan]

171. Peace is never the only answer

Neither is war. Sometimes you have to pull the trigger, negotiations broke down.

[chimpyisstillsatan]

175. you mean sometimes it's easier to pull the trigger.

war (and killing) is for people who have run out of ideas, patience, or both.

George Bush said he had to invade Iraq because negotiations broke down.

If the SEALs were such hot shit marksmen, why did they have to take a kill shot? These were kids they killed, however stupid, they were teenagers. Show some humanity, fer chrissake.

[muryan]

180. Captain Phillips was the reason

When they pointed their guns at the back of his head, it was over. You cannot allow an innocent victim to die, period. Of course its an unfortunate end to the lives of those 3 pirates but they knew exactly what they were getting into.

War and killing is necessary when ideas and patience are no longer capable of stopping violence. The EU did everything in its arsenal of 'soft power' to try to stop violence in the Balkans...didn't work. When the only option for the other guy is his gun, it's time to use yours.

[chimpyisstillsatan]

193. Captain Phillips knew what he was getting into as well.

and no, I don't believe the military. ever.

[muryan]

202. Obvious troll

How dare captain Phillips travel by sea.

Your belief in your own absolute righteousness is no different than Jerry Falwell's. Pathetic.

[chimpyisstillsatan]

204. so did he get danger pay or not?

P.S., Nice RW tactic, change the subject with simultaneous personal attacks and a straw man arguments. You sure know your Falwell.

[muryan]

206. By saying that Captain Phillips somehow deserved to be hijacked

beating and threatened to be killed, you lost any ground to stand on. Unless you have something substantial to say I'd suggest finding another way to express yourself. Trolling people for the sake of it isn't good for longevity

[chimpyisstillsatan]

207. is that a threat?

Oh, so you're one of the SERIOUS people, eh? So much SUBSTANTIAL to say.

Your idea of substance is my idea of cheerleading. It's a suckers game, and you're one of the marks. You've bought the latest comic book from the Pentagon, now head on down to the basement and enjoy.

Say hi to the site monitor for me.

[muryan]

208. Not a threat, I have no power here

I'm guessing you're one of those people that are so quick to condone an American ship for being in the area without actually caring to learn what the freight was.

I'm sure your hatred of the Pentagon is well grounded and completely substantiated by fact. I happen to believe the story as its been told, mainly because its been confirmed by numerous american and international news sources.

[chimpyisstillsatan]

209. I know the mission and the cargo.

I know what they were trying to deliver, and where. That doesn't change a thing in my mind.

The original statement was that the Pirates knew what they were getting into. By extension, the poor, innocent crew didn't, so the pirates earned their cranial ventilation. My reply was that the captain and crew also knew what they were getting into, probably making more money as a result, and this was therefore just another high seas commercial transaction like those that have been going on for months on end.

Given that, there was no believable, clearcut rationale for DUers to gloat over the death of these teenage boys. There is no upside in this story, it is pure tragedy. For believig this I was called an appeaser and advocate of piracy, a reprise of the same shit I took in 2002. I was right in 2002, and my gut says I'm right now. I remember Judith Miller and the paid mouthpiece retired generals of the past seven or so years. I remember Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman. The military is simply not credible.

If a teenage american drug dealer were shot, some would find pity and mourn the loss of life amidst tragic circumstances. Others would gloat. The difference is that there would be after action analyses in an American city. Often those show that there was unnecessary or barely justifiable force used, and sometimes there is Amadou Diallo. Here we will know nothing more than they want us to know. I chose to disbelieve.

Cops plant guns, cops claim a gun (or wallet) was pointed at them, cops beat the murder rap every time. Why not Navy snipers? But ask that question in DU, and get threatened yourself.

My empathy and sorrow over three more deaths was met with derision here, your comments included. I'm used to being attacked from the right. I was spat upon repeatedly and even threatened at gunpoint for questioning my government and military in 2002. It's even more alarming to see progressives behave despicably over what even they describe as no big deal. Pathetic, really.

[muryan]

214. Most humanitarian missions don't earn profit

Some do, most dont.

If an American drug dealer hijacked a school bus, let the children go only to hold the bus driver for ransom....they have just forfeit their life. No human being has the right to threaten an innocent person with violence or death, and when they do it becomes incumbent on those with power to protect that innocent person from harm. All loss of human life is unfortunate, but those who choose to harm others for temporary gain are not worth my tears.

The Navy snipers committed no crime, and you are the only one insinuating that they have. You have issues with authority, possibly with good cause but your absolutism is blinding. This is a scenario with very clear moral implications. The only ones who have issue with it are those that think human life should never be taken, even in defense.

[chimpyisstillsatan]

216. False analogy, False conclusions.

The crew of a commercial cargo container is in no way analogous to scchool children on a bus. The crew is was trained in counter-piracy measures and prepared for this eventuality. They accepted the risk of this trip voluntarily. The captain was not the humanitarian organization, nor was Maersk Line. Maersk is a commercial shipper that was contracted to move the humanitarian aid, and would just as soon moved raw sewage as food aid. Capt. P was paid by Maersk to move a load, any load, across Pirate territory. I'll bet he made extra money for taking the route. This is no different from a soldier getting combat pay, except that the captain had the option to say no to his mission. I have equal empathy and concern for those soldiers, so spare me the "innocent children" line.

I never once said that the snipers committed a crime, just that this possibility exists, and that we will not be allowed to know the truth because the military covers everything up and lies reflexively. In diving into this thread I pointed to the lessons of recent history that suggest this may not be the crowd pleasing "clean kill" that has you and others around here in such a pornographic lather.

It seems that makes you uncomfortable. Good.

I think our positions are mutually clear, and really have nothing else to say to you on this topic.

Peace be with you.

[Alexander]

183. You're the kind of idiot the OP was referring to.

They pointed a loaded AK-47 at the captain, and communicated to the crew that they would kill him if they weren't paid ransom.

How stupid can you be? Apparently the answer is "very".

[chimpyisstillsatan]

192. How gullible can YOU be?

What the Navy and the media says about this may be true, but only a fucking idiot buys a pig in a poke. What is it about the US military that makes you believe their story so readily? They said they were under fire from the Palestine Hotel, too. Then they shelled the journalists who might witness their war crimes.

Cops plant guns, the military plants lies. Always happened, always will. When I see a story tied up in a nice, neat bow, my bullshit detector goes off.

How gullible are you willing to be? Apparently the answer is "very."

[Alexander]

200. Yeah, I'm sure the pirates were just wonderful people.

Trying to save the environment and all.

:eyes:

That's okay, I know you're really just pissed because you have the IQ of mustard.

[chimpyisstillsatan]

205. Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman are on the phone

They're laughing at the epidemic of gullibility running through DU this week.

I never said that they pirates were wonderful people, just that I think it smells like bullshit when the military tells a nice neat story like this.

Wait a few days, the details will come out like they always do.

[Quantess]

55. Thank you for your sensible words. I completely agree.

[flvegan]

81. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

Damn, I crack me up.

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

85. "I had previously suggested that once we rescued the good captain, we ought to vaporize the perps,

their lair, and their lair mates. Not Somalia. Just all those connected to the Somali pirates."

Surely the just, democratic course of action!

[HughMoran]

87. I like your attitude Will

What the fuck? :)

[cherish44]

93. Of course there are flame wars

You think the "I'm oh-so-serious and righteous about everything" types would turn down an opportunity to bitch and moan?

[EFerrari]

94. A brilliant summary of the stakes on both sides. Thanks!

[Kajsa]

161. Right you are, Cherish.

And they object to you pointing it out.

No surprise there.

[Duke Newcombe]

96. +1

What you said.

[Trajan]

97. Sometimes winning is such a bother ....

Having to choke on yer own words and stuff .... Who wants to do that ?

I am VERY pleased at the result .... These lawless thieves should have been shut down long ago - The entire world community let it continue for far too long .... The Bush Idiocracy was completely absent on this issue ....

There are reasons that international navies sail the ocean blue, where interdiction of piracy should be a primary objective of the world's navies .... WTF took so long ?

Good to hear from you Will .... As always ....

[lamp_shade]

99. kick

[tomp]

100. rah, fucking rah. nt

[Capt_Nemo]

107. Well said

I was going to write something along these lines and then I saw your post.

One thing that should be pointed out, is that this hostage situation
(similar to countless others that happen all over the world and like this one are
dealt with specialized teams) was blown out of proportion in the media by the republicans,
who expected to make political gains out of it, had it gone wrong.

Look, I'm to the left of Kucinich (as should a good leftist european like me ;-) )
and I am somewhat skeptical of Obama's brand of change (although he is infinitely preferable
to the bastards he replaced).
I also understand that there are many complex issues behind the surge in piracy
in the coast of Somalia, not least that Somalis have been played as geopolitical
footballs by developed powers for as long as I can remember (Indeed, I remember
when they were the US peons in the Cold War against the Ethiopians, that were
in the soviet payroll).

But when you get into the piracy business you have to accept the risks that come
with it. Some times you get payed a ransom, sometimes you get a bullet in the
head.
About a decade ago some pirates in the South China Sea under the cover of a
really thick fog prepared to board this big fat ship whose lights they had
spotted. When they got really close, turns out the ship was a Russian destroyer,
that promptly blew them out of the water with 130mm shells.
Likewise, those Somali guys got it wrong this time. Tough luck...

Barack Obama handled the situation exactly like he should.

[Norrin Radd]

108. I'm pro ninja/shinobi.

Fuck pirates.

[redqueen]

120. +1

[Marrah_G]

109. Because there will always be people who will side against any form of authority

Who will rail against the US, every time, no matter what the circumstances....unless it impacts them directly.

[EFerrari]

160. I hope there will always be a contingent at DU that sides against dehumanizing violence and death

whether it impacts them directly or not.

[BlooInBloo]

113. Actually, I thnk one of the SEALs didn't tip his waiter.

[MineralMan]

117. Not so, but he only tipped 10%, the bastid.

[jonnyblitz]

115. the freeper-esque 'AMERICA, FUCK YEAH" jingoism was

creeping out many,yes. you'd have thought it was the battle of normandy, not the USN versus a Somalian on a life raft.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

125. Correct message body for that subject:

...entirely justified, since for one time the US military did EVERYTHING right, with NO civilian casualties and UNDER A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT TO BOOT!

[Stuckinthebush]

116. Yes, Will

This place has been swarming with shitheads lately.

Crazy town.

[Odin2005]

118. It's "The US is always wrong and evil" people going nuts from cognitive disonance.

[scheming daemons]

119. Freepers undercover, Will.... That's all it was...

First they try to breed discontent by saying that Obama is weak.

When he proves them wrong, they switch tactics and talk about how we are "celebrating violence" or that the pirates aren't really pirates and are misunderstood (which has been posted MANY times by "new" accounts).


It is freepers on a disinformation propaganda campaign.

[DinahMoeHum]

127. Fuck 'em - they're nothin' but "ballwalkers"

- fraternity has-beens walking around with their flies zipped but their testicles hanging out.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ball%20walking

[EFerrari]

143. So now Lynn, arcadian, blindpig and I are freepers?

Come on. That's lame. :)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

124. RECOFUCKINGMENDED, GODDAMMIT!

And swiftly kicked in the nutsack for good measure.

[WeDidIt]

129. But but but, the trawling and the dumping

You need to understand how the fuckin'-fa-chrissakes pirates FEEL!.

Yeah, there are some fuckin'-fa-chrissakes pirate apologists on these boards.

I ahve toi say, I've seen everything when idiots will be fuckin'-fa-chrissakes pirate apologists.

[DevonRex]

133. They just want to keep their ocean fresh and clean! Those AKs were painted pink and green!!!

Those weren't REAL bullets in them! They were jelly beans!

[DevonRex]

130. I'm appalled at the "blame America for every goddamned thing" crowd.

My son said that I really should rethink who I associate with online. I was kind of surprised when he said that until I read those threads.

[endarkenment]

132. I like false dichotomies myself.

[Kajsa]

163. It's eye opening, isn't it?

n/t

[WildEyedLiberal]

134. The internet gandhis have to fall all over themselves with garment-rending self-righteousness

As it was, is, and ever shall be, world without end, amen.

Nice post.

[nichomachus]

139. It has degenerated into two opposing groups of flaming assholes

Those that sympathize with pirates and murderers

And those who do high fives and scream "Fuck Yeah" when human beings die.

There is a middle ground -- but DU is not the place for well-reasoned middle ground any more -- it's turned into a sad parody of Free Republic, where you are either on one extreme or the other.

I'm very glad the captain was released, but any loss of life on either side is regrettable.

Harry Truman, when he was in WW1, scolded his troops for cheering when artillery was bombing an enemy position. He told them to shut up. "There are men dying over there," he told them.

I'm very sad at the "Fuck Yeah -- USA Number 1" posts here. Just as brainless as the shit you see on the Freeper boards.

[LynnTheDem]

140. Bravo.

I wish I could post so succinctly. And a question; is there a well-reasoned middle ground board anywhere that you know of? I've been looking, but not having much luck finding.

[sabrina 1]

152. Your posts have been beautifully written

LynnTheDem. I agree with everything you said.

It shouldn't be hard to understand that one can be relieved and happy that the Captain was rescued, while not experiencing any joy at the loss of the lives of the pirates, even if it was necessary. I don't understand how having enough humanity to refrain from cheer-leading those deaths, translates to condoning the crime of piracy, but apparently in the minds of some, it does.

"...No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were.

Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee...." John Donne

[TorchTheWitch]

185. some ARE condoning the piracy

I've read many posts from people claiming they aren't even pirates but "seafaring adventureres", posts claiming the piracy was justified because they're just trying to feed there families, etc. YES, people have and are still making such claims here. Granted, they've been a minority, but they are most definitely actively posting in all the various pirate related threads and they started it days before the rescue of the captain. Let's not pretend it isn't happening.

[Forkboy]

213. And with that, you win the thread!

Your prize is everyone ignoring it because it makes too much sense. ;)

[Blue_Roses]

141. the shitheads know this is a "no-brainer" so they've gone on to trash "Bo"...

the first puppy since he was a "gift" and didn't come from a shelter. :eyes: Some people can't help it. They are just stuck on stupid.

[sui generis]

144. it's a miracle

I agree with you about something. I'll try not to make it a habit, you look like hell in a halo.

[Duende azul]

146. How do you apply your standards about forefitting ones live to some people

who take for a living to kill in illegal wars, who kill civilians, who torture?
Should they die "how they lived: in violence:" ?

I really want you to answer this question.

[MadrasT]

147. THANK YOU

I'm a little stunned myself. WTF?

Seriously, WTF???

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

150. Three Cheers For An Awesome Post!

:toast:

[Occam Bandage]

151. I think you underestimate the extent to which some people will stretch

to find cause to complain about anything done using the military.

[EFerrari]

156. Baloney. This discussion wasn't about the use of the military

which was clearly warranted in this situation.

[Kajsa]

165. and then deny it---

n/t

[jb5150]

154. I didn't dance, but I will admit there was a spring in my step

the day I heard about Jerry Farwell.

[retread]

155. Did they get Captain Flint yet? n/t

[Geek_Girl]

158. But I like Pirates, especially the one that look like Johnny Depp

*Just Kidding* :-)

I agree this was a no brainer.

[EFerrari]

159. No dehumanizing going on here at all:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3829533

[Kajsa]

162. Thank you, Will.

I am glad you are back.

:kick: and R.

[quaker bill]

164. As a Quaker

I am no fan of killing people. However, when the US Navy gives you a chance to surrender peacefully, no matter what you are doing, you take it. The Navy Seals have talent for a particular art. Refusal to surrender as requested is all the invitation they generally require.

They just put a small bit of that talent on display.

[DevonRex]

166. Yep. Refused to surrender and THEN pointed the AK in the man's face

after saying they were gonna kill him. That was suicide by Navy SEAL. The SEALs had no choice but to save an innocent life.

[Faygo Kid]

167. Well said. This one was done correctly.

I'm pleased it turned out the way it did, just as I was pleased that Sully landed that plane. Damn those pirates.

[tavalon]

168. The part that is an important brainer part is that the MSM still has the power

to decide what we will get in a lather about. Furious about Wall Street Pirates? Don't be, be furious about Pirates halfway around the world. I'm not saying the Somalian Pirates weren't bad people doing bad things - they were and they got a life ending smackdown and I'm really pretty okay with that. I'm also okay with the MSM making the hostage/Captain the national hero of the moment - what he did was, in fact, heroic.

I'm not okay watching this crew so easily led around by it's nose. We are the ones who are knowledgeable about what's going on in this country but the MSM still got us to bark and clap like trained seals. Why now? is the question I'm asking. We didn't care about Somalians who were being pirates for the last decade. Suddenly now it's intolerable when it was not even noticed before. What are they trying to distract us from? See above.

[TorchTheWitch]

186. It's obvious why now

Because this was the first time an American ship was attempted to be taken and an American taken hostage in 200 years. That's pretty damn newsworthy and I seriously doubt these teenaged pirates did it at just this time in order distract people from the piracy on Wall Street. We don't need the MSM to mention word one about the piracy on Wall Street anyway since everyone who isn't filthy dirty rich has been feeling it hard in their pocketbooks. AS IF anyone will forget about it just because a lot of the news for about week has been headlining the kidnapping of this American captain. Imagining that the general public is going to forget about Wall Street after they just lost their house, half their 401K and/or their job because of about a week of some other news as the headliner is fucking INSULTING.

[tavalon]

187. Betchya they thought about it less this week

The MSM knows they can't distract all the time, but they will do their best to create the rage du jour.

You're easily insulted, aren't you. Wait, are you insulted on behalf of the easily led generic American or are you personally insulted. I'm not sure it matters, actually, but it occurs to me that those are two different kinds of insulted to be.

[Orsino]

170. Violence: it's not just for disposing of inconvenient people.

It's also great fodder for flame wars.

[RoccoR5955]

172. FYI -- They aren't pirates...

Pirates have always had a code that they follow. These guys have no code, they are just plain old ordinary terrorists. They just happen to be on the sea.
Personally, I think that the media is giving pirates a bad name with their coverage, but that's me.

Here are some of the more common pirate codes from the 18th century: (Thanks to Wikipedia)

Bartholomew Roberts' articles

One of the best known sets of pirate articles was set down by the famous Welsh pirate Bartholomew Roberts in 1720.

I. Every man has a vote in affairs of moment; has equal title to the fresh provisions, or strong liquors, at any time seized, and may use them at pleasure, unless a scarcity (not an uncommon thing among them) makes it necessary, for the good of all, to vote a retrenchment.

II. Every man to be called fairly in turn, by list, on board of prizes because, (over and above their proper share) they were on these occasions allowed a shift of clothes: but if they defrauded the company to the value of a dollar in plate, jewels, or money, marooning was their punishment. If the robbery was only betwixt one another, they contented themselves with slitting the ears and nose of him that was guilty, and set him on shore, not in an uninhabited place, but somewhere, where he was sure to encounter hardships.

III. No person to game at cards or dice for money.

IV. The lights and candles to be put out at eight o'clock at night: if any of the crew, after that hour still remained inclined for drinking, they were to do it on the open deck

V. To keep their piece, pistols, and cutlass clean and fit for service.

VI. No boy or woman to be allowed amongst them. If any man were to be found seducing any of the latter sex, and carried her to sea, disguised, he was to suffer death;(so that when any fell into their hands, as it chanced in the Onslow, they put a sentinel immediately over her to prevent ill consequences from so dangerous an instrument of division and quarrel; but then here lies the roguery; they contend who shall be sentinel, which happens generally to one of the greatest bullies, who, to secure the lady's virtue, will let none lie with her but himself.)

VII. To desert the ship or their quarters in battle, was punished with death or marooning.

VIII. No striking one another on board, but every man's quarrels to be ended on shore, at sword and pistol. (The quarter-master of the ship, when the parties will not come to any reconciliation, accompanies them on shore with what assistance he thinks proper, and turns the disputant back to back, at so many paces distance; at the word of command, they turn and fire immediately, (or else the piece is knocked out of their hands). If both miss, they come to their cutlasses, and then he is declared the victor who draws the first blood.)

IX. No man to talk of breaking up their way of living, till each had shared one thousand pounds. If in order to this, any man should lose a limb, or become a cripple in their service, he was to have eight hundred dollars, out of the public stock, and for lesser hurts, proportionately.

X. The captain and quartermaster to receive two shares of a prize: the master, boatswain, and gunner, one share and a half, and other officers one and quarter.

XI. The musicians to have rest on the Sabbath Day, but the other six days and nights, none without special favour.

Captain John Phillips's articles

Captain John Phillips, captain of the Revenge, also set a code for his men in 1724;

I. Every Man Shall obey civil Command; the Captain shall have one full Share and a half of all Prizes; the Master, Carpenter, Boatswain and Gunner shall have one Share and quarter.

II. If any Man shall offer to run away, or keep any Secret from the Company, he shall be marooned with one Bottle of Powder, one Bottle of Water, one small Arm, and Shot.

III. If any Man shall steal any Thing in the Company, or game, to the Value of a Piece of Eight, he shall be marooned or shot.

IV. If any time we shall meet another Marooner that Man shall sign his Articles without the Consent of our Company, shall suffer such Punishment as the Captain and Company shall think fit.

V. That Man that shall strike another whilst these Articles are in force, shall receive Moses’s Law (that is, 40 Stripes lacking one) on the bare Back.

VI. That Man that shall snap his Arms, or smoke Tobacco in the Hold, without a Cap to his Pipe, or carry a Candle lighted without a Lanthorn, shall suffer the same Punishment as in the former Article.

VII. That Man shall not keep his Arms clean, fit for an Engagement, or neglect his Business, shall be cut off from his Share, and suffer such other Punishment as the Captain and the Company shall think fit.

VIII. If any Man shall lose a Joint in time of an Engagement, shall have 400 Pieces of Eight ; if a Limb, 800.

IX. If at any time you meet with a prudent Woman, that Man that offers to meddle with her, without her Consent, shall suffer present Death.

Articles of Edward Low and George Lowther

The articles listed below are attributed by the Boston News-Letter to Captain Edward Low. The first eight of these articles are essentially identical to those attributed to pirate captain George Lowther by Charles Johnson. Since Lowther and Low are known to have sailed together from about New Year's to May 28, 1722, it is probable that both reports are correct and that Low and Lowther shared the same articles, with Low's two extra articles being an ordinance, or amendment, adopted after the two crews separated.

I. The Captain is to have two full Shares; the Master is to have one Share and one Half; The Doctor, Mate, Gunner and Boatswain, one Share and one Quarter.

II. He that shall be found guilty of taking up any Unlawful Weapon on Board the Privateer or any other prize by us taken, so as to Strike or Abuse one another in any regard, shall suffer what Punishment the Captain and the Majority of the Company shall see fit.

III. He that shall be found Guilty of Cowardice in the time of engagements, shall suffer what Punishment the Captain and the Majority of the Company shall think fit.

IV. If any Gold, Jewels, Silver, &c. be found on Board of any Prize or Prizes to the value of a Piece of Eight, & the finder do not deliver it to the Quarter Master in the space of 24 hours he shall suffer what Punishment the Captain and the Majority of the Company shall think fit.

V. He that is found Guilty of Gaming, or Defrauding one another to the value of a Royal of Plate, shall suffer what Punishment the Captain and the Majority of the Company shall think fit.

VI. He that shall have the Misfortune to lose a Limb in time of Engagement, shall have the Sum of Six hundred pieces of Eight, and remain aboard as long as he shall think fit.

VII. Good Quarters to be given when Craved.

VIII. He that sees a Sail first, shall have the best Pistol or Small Arm aboard of her.

IX. He that shall be guilty of Drunkenness in time of Engagement shall suffer what Punishment the Captain and Majority of the Company shall think fit.

X. No snapping of Guns in the Hold.

[live love laugh]

173. "Is it me, or has this place kinda been swarming with shitheads lately?" It is NOT you. nt

[pitchforksandtorches]

174. Shitheads, Somalia, and Global warming

Somalia has the highest number of Pirates AND the lowest Carbon emissions of any country. Coincidence?
Co2�http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita
Pirates�http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4584878.stm

You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.

Flying Spaghetti Monsterism

Arrrrr!

May you be touched by His noodly appendage.

http://www.venganza.org/

[tavalon]

190. Refused to argue that one!

Anything with graphs is really good science and anything having to do with the noodly appendage and his grand monsterism is doubly not questionable. ;)

All Hail the Spaghetti Monster!!!

[chimpyisstillsatan]

178. Pirate Porn

Give me a fucking break. If I chose to mourn yet another young death in this global rape-athon we call capitalism, it's my own goddamned business. Here's a few tidbits to chew on:

1. Maybe this was indeed a "rescue," but it's been a long time since I bought what I'm told by the government and the media. ESPECIALLY when it hits those emotional erogenous zones so perfectly. Am I the only one who still thinks this way now that Obama is in office?

2. There's still room for compassion, and kids weilding guns for any reason deserve at least that.

3. Maybe that captain, who had ANTI-PIRACY TRAINING, knew EXCTLY what he was getting into when he sailed into pirate territory. Has anyone asked whether HE made any extra money for that trip? Should we get all misty for him then? Is he such a fucking victim that our Navy snipers had to bail him out AND we have to cheer his burn-free chestnuts? Please.

Feel free to wallow in your bloodlust. Just don't expect me to beat off with you.

[Alexander]

181. We have infiltrators here, who say wacky shit to make DU look bad.

The pirate-loving idiots are not much different from the DUers who claimed that Bush blew up the space shuttle Columbia (remember that?) or the ones who claimed the BFEE used satellites to cause the tsunami and Hurricane Katrina.

I'm sure some of them are certifiable and/or brain-dead, but I'm convinced a lot of these posts come from infiltrators and freepers who want to make DU look like a loony bin.

[Lil Missy]

184. Seriouly. It reminds me of the fuckers in LA that went on a big shootout that out-gunned Police.

One of the assholes got shot, and the family had the fucking nerve to sue because other Officers did not go into dangers way to save the fucker.

Honestly, go shooting people up or holding hostages, expect to be shot. You just chose your own destiny, and your life takes second place to innocent bystanders. Or law enforcement. Or Navy Seals.

Shoot them in the head. And don't try this shit again.

[LynneSin]

194. Will, you've been here as long as I have - and you're shocked about this?

This is par for the course and the reason why the admins invented 'alert' buttons and 'hide message' buttons

[chimpyisstillsatan]

197. To many, the Iraq war was a no brainer

Do you realize that you sound like the "love it or leave it, you Saddam lover" Freepers and Fundies I faced down in 2002-03? In a free society, skepticism of the military is not only healthy, it's a requirement.

The only no-brainer is violence.

[blondeatlast]

198. Shitheadedness on both sides. I stayed out of the "debate" but I read through them

for entertainment value AND--to fully appreciate the gift of Democratic Underground where reactionary rules the day at first--but reason usually ends up prevailing anyway.

Gawd, how I love and NEED this place!

[fishwax]

201. of course there were flame wars--and there were "shitheads" working both sides

Not everyone who attempts to contextualize the recent history of piracy along Somalia's coast or who feels sad about the loss of life or who can't get behind a drastically expanded military response to the trend is an America-hating pirate apologist, though such labels have been tossed at posters for simply articulating those positions.

Not everyone who was happy that the captain survived or who was impressed (and relieved) by the military precision which enabled this conflict to be resolved with no loss of non-combatant lives is a grave-dancing, freeper-like jingoist, though such labels have been tossed at posters for simply articulating those positions.

[bridgit]

210. still...