I may get flamed all to hell for this, but I would be remiss in not noting it

[The Straight Story]

I signed up for DU in August 2004. I had read the posts here though for sometime before that.

Having seen how the left spoke about things re: bush for years I am wondering why we are condemning now the right for doing pretty much the same thing we did for years.

We didn't invade Iran. All lefties were not put into camps. Abortion was not overturned. We did not become another Nazi Germany as so many said we would. The damned patriot act had dem support, and the wars were funded by both parties.

We were sure bush was, if not the anti-christ, at least someone who would stay in power past his due date (as the right believed before with Clinton).

We felt our role was to keep the light on and keep bush on his toes, and keep people informed and afraid of what he might do - even if he didn't do it.

In short - we the people feared that those in power would (and they did) abuse their power for themselves and the few.

Now we are in a unique position since the founding of DU. We have 'one of our own' in power. If we criticize him, we are hurting our own future. If we don't then we are letting him get away with things. If someone he hires has ties to someone else then suddenly he is guilty by association and is a good old boy.

Round and round it goes on boards like this when it comes to people in power and politics. When the rw is scared of Obama we tell them they are going overboard. When we do it we are just being good and aware citizens trying to protect ourselves.

In the end, if you really want an us vs. them scenario - it is the poor and powerless against those with money and power.

banks got bailed out as it was seen as an emergency. But to me, health care is a much bigger emergency affecting the lives of millions. We can move our military in short order to stop a hostage situation, but we project it will be years and years before we can move them out of wars we got into based on lies.

Millions are unemployed, losing their homes, going through a mental hell - and yet we rush to the aid of big insurance companies and tell others they can wait.

Gays should be serving openly in the military, but that will have to wait as well because there are bigger issues - we can't multi-task...unless it is taking care of the economy, two wars, pirates, etc and so on. We can multi-task if we want to.

The rw is freaked out - but I don't see them doing anything more than we did for years. Telling people the folks in power are evil and out to get them, telling them their rights will be taken away any day now (abortion, guns, whatever).

I don't fear the rw and their talk show hosts or websites.

I fear the people in power who will pass over the people that elected them for their special interests. bush didn't give his conservative base what they wanted, Obama may not give us the things we want.

In the end, we all share a common side. We want the people we elect to do what we elected them to do, but too often they do what the people with power and money want them to do.

And instead of holding the people we elected accountable, we rally around our team and put on blinders.

The enemy is not the guy holding the get a brain morans sign, it is those we have elected that continue on failed policies - whether they were started by those on the right or the left does not matter.

Those tea bagging this week aren't my enemies, those in power who do nothing but prop up corporations and defense spending while letting people die day in and out from lack of funding are.

If you take money I earn and spend it, you answer to me - but sadly that is not the case anymore, because I am the little guy. And yeah, us little people live in fear of all you folks in power - because you have yet to prove you are in your positions for us.

[Liberal Veteran]

1. The difference is that we are right and they are wrong.

Most of the time.

[FlyingSquirrel]

23. And that's exactly what they think too.

Is it really possible that exactly 50% of the country is dead wrong? Or is it not more likely that those in power have neatly divided us based upon hot-button emotional issues, which blinds us to the fact that neither side up in Washington REALLY represents us? (Except for MY senator, of course. MY senator is DIFFERENT.)

[Javaman]

46. So, I'm only assuming, you didn't read any of the excerpts from the WH memos

that were release in regards to moron* wanting to do away with the first amendment?

we were a lot closer than you realize.

[MNDemNY]

76. Yes, 50% of the people are "dead wrong".

[pollo poco]

95. and they are not even 50%

They are less than 50% of the people in one country in a very big world. The rest of the world correctly surmises that American culture must be very tolerant of ignorance, when stupid arguments against obviously necessary things like health care and regulation of assault weapons are even taken seriously. Our national debates are pathetically, obviously driven by ignorance, and the vast majority of the rest of the so- called "advanced" world stare in open mouthed amazement. I will never understand how a tolerance of pure idiocy has become such a part of our national character. And if you mention that most people in this country, left and right, are uninformed blowhards who feel free to advance their theories without first subjecting them to prior study, reflection, or even "truth tests" you will be roundly attacked by both groups for being an elitist snob.

The statement "can 50% of the people be wrong?" is a perfect example of someone feeling free to invent and express an assertion without needing any supporting facts. The whole argument is made on the basis of an assumption, expressed as some kind of universal maxim, about the inherent wisdom of the people, which is wholly unsubstantiated, but righteously put forward, as if there were some kind of self regulating feedback loop that protects democracies from behaving idiotically. If only that were true. But the truth is- 100% of the people can be wrong, if 100% of the people are ignorant! A democracy is only as smart as the citizens that comprise it will allow it to be.

[debbierlus]

73. What difference? Obama passes off trillions of debt on our children to save Zombie banks

And, the left crows about Michelle's down to earth J Crew dresses...

Obama expands unconstitutional wiretapping and some DU'ers defend it, simply because it is Obama doing it, and not Bush

Obama has to be FORCED to allow a couple of single payer health care advocates to his first 'summit' while the health insurance leeches show up in droves to write the policy

Obama expands the war in Afghanistan and we stay silent...

I have been called on this very board, an enemy of the people, a ego maniac, and a hateful spiteful person, all because I point this out.

I see the exact same behavior from the left, as I did on the right.

On the majority of issues, Obama has proven by HIS ACTIONS & DEEDS who he is...

And, it is not what we hoped it would be. It is the exact opposite.

Bush would be stoned by people on this board for doing the same things Obama is now doing.

[Qutzupalotl]

85. Do you have a link that says Obama is expanding wiretapping?

I had heard he was broadening the arguments defending it, but not that he was expanding the wiretapping itself. Thanks.

[Qutzupalotl]

101. That's what I thought. nt

[truedelphi]

102. One of Bush's major successes is that his neocon fascist policies

Moved this country so far to the Extreme Right that anything anyone would do after him is rather welcome.

I agree with you on all points that you make. But when I stop and think about how many Americans grew up under Reagan, Bush, Clinton, none of whom cared a whit about the middle incomed, it is easy to see that most younger Americans perceptions have been thrown off quite a bit.

[aquart]

2. No, I was never silly enough to think Bush would stay past the 8 years.

People on DU hold a variety of opinions.

[rpannier]

26. I never did either

But damn if it didn't seem like everyday there were a few posts claiming he was and they had 'proof' of it

[DCKit]

50. I heard it, and I heard it HERE. On DU.

Just as I heard the same thing in one spam email after another from members of my own family about W.J. Clinton from 1996-1999. Sure we have fewer CT nutters on DU, because the (D) brain just isn't very conducive to simplistic conswervative, authoritarian, unimaginative thinking. But there are a few with a short-circuit in any group.

On the other hand, given what Dick and Dumbya got away with from 2001-2009, I can't really say I've heard a CT theory about them that I can simply dismiss out-of-hand. My first effort at debunking was always to ask "What do they intend to gain by this, and is it just too intelligent a solution for this bunch, or the problem at hand?" If it sounded too smart to be true, it was.

Everything they did, from the (s)election onward (and it's a long, long list), they did with a sledgehammer. No subtlety, whatsoever. However, given that the blood of 3K+ citizens, 4k+ military personnel and an unknown number of intelligence agents (and far more CIA careers) are on their hands, any intent to hold onto the WH after February 20th would surely have been met with stout resistance.

My concern is that we're again hearing the same voices now as during the Clinton administration - being egged on not by some fringe wacko, but by the M$M. Their foot-soldiers are people who own guns, people who are obsessed with guns and weapons of all types, and a fundamentalist hatred of anything that's not exactly the same as they are. Chuck Norris on acid, meth and steroids to our Shirley McClain with a doobie.

It's just not comparable.

[valerief]

87. He lives on through his appointees. nt

[Baby Snooks]

90. Well he couldn't just declare himself king....

But he could have declared martial law and moved from there to literally overthrow our government. The opportunity never presented itself. That doesn't mean he didn't hope it would. Or that he didn't attempt to create a situation that would have provided the opportunity.

One of those opportunities might have resulted from nuclear conflict had we attacked and invaded Iran - the region is a powderkeg. Moreso now after we attacked and invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.

Iran has an alliance with Russia. And Russia might be looking for an opportunity as well - to launch a nuclear strike against us. The world isn't black and white. Unless you're a Republican. Then it's black and white. Republicans are white and the good guys of course. Everyone else is black and the enemy. Only the Republicans, of course, believe in god and everything good. According to the Republicans anyway.

More than likely the Saud family intervened in the matter of Iran - probably by threatening to cut off oil exports. They cannot afford any further disruption in the Persian Gulf - they fear the same type of fundamentalism rising up in Saudi Arabia and overthrowing them.

The world is a more dangerous place as a result of George W Bush - as we may see as Pakistan begins to move towards civil unrest and possible revolution and the coming into power of a fundamentalist terroristic government with nuclear weapons at its disposal. That the result of George HW Bush and his intervention when Dr. Strangelove, aka the good Dr. Khan, was about to be arrested in Europe for selling nuclear secrets. Pakistan didn't just develop the bomb. It was given the bomb by George HW Bush. No doubt in the hope that if all else failed, he could convince Pakistan to bomb Iran so he could get his precious oil.

Most people who feared George W Bush and what he was capable of had well-founded fears. The family itself is evil.

[Uzybone]

3. You are naive if you think the right wng are not your enemy

you will never see a day of the things you want if you continue to think that way.

[truedelphi]

24. Every time I forget about who they are, something reminds me

I like my RW neighbors, but it helps they don't have absolute power over me. Otherwise I would be forced to spend six hours a day reading the Bible.

Last week, when the "Handmaid's Tale" was on the movie channel, I remembered again how scary they are.

[get the red out]

35. Thank you

I care the most about keeping the right wing theocrats out of power. We cannot afford to let those monsters get closer to ruling us with an iron hand than they did. Maybe a lot of MALE liberals don't see the danger in women officially becoming second class citizens and legally no more than wombs for GAWD but many women damned well do. I will do anything or fight anyone to keep the religious right on the run. I am close to menopause, so they can't force me into constant pregnancy, but I have two young nieces that I would not want to see made slaves in their system. FUCK THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT! To me that is a war cry and as long as Obama keeps reproductive rights alive and keeps this country secular, he has my full support. Besides, I don't think he is doing a bad job otherwise. In six months we will see diaries about how Obama saved the economy, of course someone will be mad here at DU because some evil American got rescued from lawless pirates or some such, (How dare we save American lives, we all should be dead for the good of humanity, right? The world would be better off if the evil Western democracies were gone and the sweet cultures of institutionalized misogyny, theocracy, honor killings, be-headings, human slavery, and child marriage were preserved and thrived alone without our hateful interference.)

[awoke_in_2003]

62. This liberal male

does see the danger, and fully supports women's rights. I agree...keep the religious right on the run.

[Bluenorthwest]

40. RW eh? The only ones with religionist control goals?

Then please explain why the LW President and his Veep and the Chairman of the Party are all pushing against equal rights for my family based on their religous dogmas? "They" frighten you, your neighbors. But not Democrats who spew the same religionism and shout that God tells them to discrminatate against gay folks, but also tells them that liars are fine and torture is to be disregarded?
Pointing fingers of blame for what OUR side also does is simply not sportsman like, you know.

[get the red out]

69. And if you give aid and comfort to the RW

how good is your life?

[truedelphi]

77. I have made at least a half dozen posts on how

We really only have one party. The Money Party.

I have made several posts on how the Bush Junta brought this country so far to the right that the current "centrist" occupant of the WH is to the right of Richard Nixon.

Nixon would be having a panel report to him on what the dangers of GMO's in the food supply are, and then appointing an Ag Department head based on that.

Nixon would be appalled by the Geithner, Summers, Rubin, Gensler etc band of criminals shaping our "new improved" economic policies.

And Under Nixon, we never saw the loonie tunes "religious" brigade we have now. Back in the day, the worst of the worst religious wise was Billy Graham. Hardly one of my favorites (I am slightly to the left of the Dalai Llama) but not someone who worried all that much about who was sleeping with whom.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

4. Excellent post.

I suspect you will get flamed. You are right though.

David

[OhioChick]

5. You make some very valid points.

Judging by the amount of rec's in such a short time, others obviously do, as well.

[mmonk]

6. You are correct. They do not hold their positions for us.

Therefore, if they do something wrong or against our interests, it is our right and duty to say so, no matter who holds power. I will say, however, the people that voted for bush twice and McCain are generally more propagandized than the rest of the population and will see many of us as enemies instead of fellow citizens because they are told to and believe those who say it.

[Mojorabbit]

Great post

I see the pictures of small groups of teabaggers. While I think they are misguided, the small number of them is disparaged here. I attended many vigils and protests against the war where we had low numbers too but we were out there anyway. I always felt that even with small numbers at least people who drove by would know that if they were against the war they were not alone.

I don't want to be spied on no matter who is in power. I am very happy with a lot of things Obama is doing and very unhappy with others. I will continue to try and support politicians who are progressive and actually try to look out for their constituents.

[ChromeFoundry]

7. Well Said. n/t

[Peace_Sells]

8. no subject

I can see where you are coming from but bush shredded the constitution and was close to dictator. Plus the right wing radio hosts incite anger and hate among the conservative base which leads to violence. I don't hear any liberals talking about going out and killing conservatives but I do hear the opposite.

[BeFree]

18. Good points

We must not forget that there are some huge differences not only in our politics but the way we live and act.

Still, somehow we must, all us peons, unite against our common foe. A foe that does everything they can to keep us divided.

[kster]

25. When we allow our ballots to leave our polling places

before they are hand counted by the people in the polling place/neighborhood, the same scenario will continue to play out Over and over and over again.

With the INTERNET we have ZERO reasons not to hand count the paper ballots at the precinct and post them totals on the door, INTERNET, local newspaper, or radio station before them ballots leave the hood.

Yet everyone wonders why we are able to get our guy in, but yet, nothing ever changes???????????????????????


K&R

[poboyross]

56. I agree on the fact that there are differences, but

I don't know if they are as huge as one might think. I consider myself conservative, but not as anyone on here knows it. I've explained how I feel to others on this board, what I call a Teddy Roosevelt Conservative, and wasn't flamed.

I think a lot of the angst is because people spend so much time saying "OOOOOOOOO, I just hate so-and-so." It's either "They sit around reading the Bible all day", or on the flip side "They're out aborting babies and having homahsekshul relations." It's absurd in my opinion. I don't think, overall, that the way conservatives and liberals live is much different. I've seen the full spectrum, have friends over the full spectrum, and have lived with all types at some point. All I see is a power structure that's more interested in keeping their elected positions than trying to foster a sense of universal concern for the country and saying "We can fight over this all day, but what can we get done NOW that we can agree on". You don't do that by saying, in the last administration, "You're not patriotic" and you don't do it in this one by saying "Need I remind you that *I* won?".

Why do I have to do or believe X in order to be heard, or in order to be a part of either party? The idea that *we're right and they're wrong* only forces you to abandon foundational principles that many espouse, like *everyone is entitled to their lifestyle and opinion*...when by your actions you're saying "Weeeeeeell, it's all ok except for what *YOU'RE* doing, sir". I don't agree with a whole lot of what people say on here, but I'm fine with you living by those principles until you either say I shouldn't be able to live by mine or say I'm a dumsh*t for believing what I do. I read all types of blogs and sites, and even though I consider myself by my aforementioned label, I have yet to join any "Republican" ones if that tells you anything. I will say that I see the same type of craziness all over, the whole us vs. them mentality. By saying that I'm not suggesting anyone leave their principles at the door, just try to accept that no one is as bad as you think they are, and remember that they're people, too. Approach them in a civilized and amiable manner, and while they may say "I don't agree", at least you haven't made an enemy. Then at least you can lead by example by not cursing their name or their belief structure.

[Enthusiast]

30. Excellent points. +1 nt

[Joe Chi Minh]

31. Also baffled at the OP's statement that Bush didn't give his base what they wanted. That strikes me

as a very, very scary statement.

Two massive tax break for the rich, at a time when, thanks to his good offices, they were already gouging the nation, and the poorer folk needed it more than ever. Even politicians of his own party who weren't Neocons were marginalised in Congress. The two trumped- up wars have made Big Oil and the military-industrial complex richer and more predatory on the public purse than ever - and that took some doing; a city was inundated through neglect and many of its citizens herded into stadia and left to perish of thirst and sickness. Does he know if or how many people have been "disappeared" without trial?

Also, a thoroughgoing "coup d'etat" would always have been a risky business. Does the OP imagine it wasn't considered? He makes it sound as if, all in all, Bush/Cheney were pretty reasonable in government, an office they stole twice. And, seemingly, on the grounds that their Democrat* opponents were a push-over.

*Under Obama, they're beginning to act in a "Democratic" way, but there's a long way to go. I'll reserve that term for when the election system and media renounce "banana republic" standards.

[truedelphi]

78. I join you and am putting a bottle of chilled chardonnay

In the back section of the fridge. Just awaiting the day when our "banana republic" status finally goes away.

It will be activists, not the new Presdient, that pushes that agenda out of the way.

[Joe Chi Minh]

104. I wonder what else his base wanted. WWIII, with an attack on Russia and China?

[NewMoonTherian]

38. With regard to liberals talking about killing conservatives...

I heard it plenty. There were books written on the subject, as I recall. It's all the same nonsense rhetoric, and whatever nasty attack you can name, neither side is innocent.

[bullwinkle428]

47. Of course, you cite no links or sources to back up your assertions.

:dunce:

[NewMoonTherian]

83. I can't provide a link...

to what some crackpot said in an AOL chatroom six or seven years ago. I apologize.

I might be able to find stories about the book I mentioned, but I'd rather not google the things I'd have to, DHS watching and all.

I was expressing my experience with extremists. It's not wikipedia, it's a discussion thread. Take it for what you will.

[poboyross]

57. There should be identical outrage

when it comes to anyone saying someone else should be killed for their beliefs. I also couldn't believe there was no outrage that I saw from the "left" (I hate using labels like that) when people said that Bush should have his life taken from him. All I saw were some statements to the effect of "Well, they were in a hard place, felt their lifestyle was under attack, and thus we should understand that." I call BS. I feel the same way about anyone who suggests that *any* President should have that happen to them. No matter the disagreement, it's still illegal and wrong to suggest that. Saying a President should be prosecuted is a different matter, they're all game for that.

[EOTE]

66. There is nowhere near an equivalency.

And even if your ridiculous assertion was true, the difference is that those on the RW actually go through with their threats. When was the last time you saw someone on the left kill someone on the right because of their ideology?

[Solon]

81. Ann Coulter's Books don't count. n/t

[newspeak]

100. actually, I want to know where you heard about liberals wanting to kill conservatives

I've listened to Air America, read so called "liberal" books and not one has mentioned about killing conservatives. However, I have heard Ann Coulter, on TV no less, make threats against liberals--J. Gordon Liddy and the infamous wacko, Glenn Beck. But, how do they threaten, mmm maybe, by causing such fear and paranoia in their listeners--"There going to take your guns"--"you ain't got a job blame those liberals for immigration, etc..etc." What really gets me, is the so-called liberals were absolutely shut out-when * and his gang ruled--and you know, they ruled all three branches. You do know that, don't you? Now, I saw Chaffee (Republican) in an interview a while back-he's writing a book and I remember what he said when Bush and Cheney were first selected. I believe he said before Cheney was even sworn in a meeting was called for all Republican congress-critters and they were told--get that, TOLD==that there would be no compromises with the Democrats, basically it's all our way or the highway--and that was supposedly coming from Cheney. When we heard of the Downing Street memos--here was proof that we were lied into a war--they were attempting to fabricate anything to get that Iraq war--where was the meeting to hear testimony from witnesses about how we were lied into a war? Well, since it was mostly Democrats, it was held in the basement because those neo-cons seemed to have taken the rest of the chambers.

Any moderate Republican in the * administration were either shunned or gotten rid of by the neo-cons. I remember when the medicare bill, you know that sweet deal for the pharma. corps.-there were Republicans against that bill-maybe because it was so obscene for our senior citizens--but those who did not tow the * line were either threatened or coerced to pass it.

I'd say, with the generous help by corporate MSM--the * administration with help has intentionally caused the disturbing divide in this country. Pitting families against families-neighbors against neighbors. Because, you see, "divided we fall." I've never seen FEAR used as much as these last eight years. I grew up in the cold war, and I have never heard as much fear mongering by a bunch of truth challenged, bellicose bullies.

If you know anything about the Constitution or the Bill of Right (besides the 2nd amendment), then you'd know that the * administration literally pissed on those sacred documents. Did you know that habeas corpus was suspended? Did you know that under the Patriot Act, an American citizen could be labeled a terrorist and lose all rights. And who determines who will be labeled a terrorist--* administration? If you don't think that those "Liberals" weren't targeted by the media during the * administration, then you're definitely in denial. So, tell me again who threatened killing conservatives, cause I haven't heard no one on the (few) liberal radio shows I've listened to or read any liberal author threatening to kill conservatives. Can't say the same for the paranoid, fear infested neo-cons.

[Bjorn Against]

9. Well said, I may not agree with every word but I can still give you a K&R

I do think however that it is important to note that while some on the left may have been wrong about Bush staying past his eight years, they were right about a lot of other things and in fact in some ways Bush was worse than anyone on the left predicted.

[biopowertoday]

10. I can agree with most of what you said. k and r also.

[opihimoimoi]

11. SIMPLY PUT....... ITS NOT THE SAME...The GOP are Obstinate Bullies

The Dems are Benevolent......

[poboyross]

58. .....mmmmmkay

To the great people on here, those who feel the exact opposite of the way I do, yet who welcome me and have found that I share much of the same beliefs, I salute you. To those who suggest that what we disagree on means that I am thus labeled mentally deficient, or something along the lines of a "freeper", bigot, homophobe, or dumbsh*t (I am in no way the first 3, but my friends might like the 4th ;) )....I refer you to this post so you can be reminded of your benevolence.

[bertman]

12. Recommend and kick. You got it right, The Straight Story.

[frazzled]

13. But Bush did start a war under false pretenses

And people died. It happened. And that was something tangible that was not a mere conspiracy theory or irrational fear. It happened, and was deserving of our protests. War is a line that cannot be crossed without justification, because once launched it cannot be changed.

That said, I agree with much of what you say, but the lesson I take away is different. Zealotry in politics is unproductive. Ideological purity is dangerous. Absolutist thinking leads to errors in judgment. And this applies to both the right and the left. That's not a call for centrism. It's a call for a realistic view on things that acknowledges the imperfections and complexities of governments and the individuals who must try to make them work ... in all their imperfection.

[The Straight Story]

14. Actually i think we take away the same lesson

"Zealotry in politics is unproductive. Ideological purity is dangerous. Absolutist thinking leads to errors in judgment. And this applies to both the right and the left. That's not a call for centrism. It's a call for a realistic view on things that acknowledges the imperfections and complexities of governments and the individuals who must try to make them work ... in all their imperfection."

And yes, bush did start two wars - but folks in our party went along with it all.

We expected much worse, and whipped up folks based on the same thing we condemned - fear. It is the same tactic the rw is using now and did before with Clinton.

We lived in fear over losing our rights, now they live in fear. And all the time both sides are losing rights and not having the things we all want taken care of.

We get so busy worrying about each other and what may happen that we often let slip by us what is really happening. Those in power get more of it, and those needing the most help don't get it.

The RW is wrong on Obama, and we were wrong about bush on some things as well - and yet here we find ourselves yet again on the short end of the stick.

Voting for change is one thing, getting it is another. Obama is but one man. Change has to start with us. People in power will do, as we have seen, what is best for them and their jobs. We keep coming in second - and the rw, from what I have seen, feel the same when it comes to bush and crew.

It is past time to stop focusing on one leader and focusing on the many in the house and senate who fail on a regular basis. From local to federal we are fighting with those who want to keep power and don't deliver - and folks on both sides keep making excuses for people.

It is not anymore an us versus them when it comes to the right and left, it an us versus them when it comes to folks we put into office to do a job. And they keep making excuses for not doing it.

The whole reason we are in the middle is that no one seems to care enough to simply do the job we sent them to do. They worry about being elected again, keeping powder dry, etc. And all the while we get sidetracked, as does the rw, into yelling about how many terrible things an elected leader is going to do.

My enemy is not some person over at fr, they don't set policy. My enemy is the person in power who sucks at the teat of those in power and with money and lets the rest of us down.

[zeemike]

20. i think you have correctly identified who the enemy is.

But how to fight that enemy is another story.
And there are only two choices I see that we have...Revolution or winning through attrition.
Revolution will be quick but probably bloody unless we can convince the tea baggers we are on the same side.
Attrition I think will take a long time and will let escape many who are guilty of crimes or misdemeanors. But in the long run will achieve the same goal but without the satisfaction of retribution. But it will not require the cooperation of the right wing

[HughMoran]

15. I guess that's why you call yourself "The Straight Story"

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. I sit here with my fingers crossed that once the grave situation of the economy turns and we have discretionary funds available and a more positive climate that "we the people" will start to see some of what we are waiting for - i.e. healthcare/insurance reform, equal rights for gays and the pulling back of resources from overseas wars so we can fix OUR infrastructure/energy situation, not prop up some third world country that could care less. I'm a patient person - for now.

[The Straight Story]

16. Well, my screen name is from a movie :)

"The Straight Story" from Disney but directed by David Lynch (Of Twin Peaks Fame, elephant man, Wild at heart, Blue Velvet, Eraser Head, Lost Highway, et al).

A wonderful movie and well worth watching IMHO :)

From wild at heart: "My dog barks some. You don't even know what kind of dog I have but already you have formed a mental picture of it in your head..."

More on The Straight Story:
http://archive.sensesofcinema.com/contents/00/7/straight.html

[HughMoran]

19. Yes, I enjoy David Lynch but haven't seen that movie.

I think I will find that movie and watch it - apparently you're not the only person who enjoyed it too.

[jbnow]

17. bush earned the mistrust. No one was giving dire warnings

his first months in office as much as we resented his appointment.

The concerns didn't come out of the blue
"We didn't invade Iran."
True. We heard there were plans from a journalist with great credibility and inside contacts. We had already invades Iraq. We were setting up situations with Iran.

"All lefties were not put into camps."
True. The camps were built and the bush administration said they were for emergebcy influx of immigrant. They didn't say why that was expected. At the same time there was a clause in the defense bill that subverted posse comitatus statutes.

"Abortion was not overturned."
True. A president can't overturn abortion. The president did appoint people to SCOTUS who were against abortion but obviously he can't fire anyone on SC so the balance wasn't tipped.

"We did not become another Nazi Germany as so many said we would."
I missed people saying that we would. I saw many people making comparisons to the early years of Nazi Germany but even that didn't happen for many years into the administration when some of the comparisons were valid.

The other point is even as the above issues were going on there was not some outcry to buy guns and rebel. There was mostly urgings for demonstrations, pressuring congress and so on.

If you are saying neither side is perfect, true and we can be wrong and extreme.
But Obama has not earned any of their accusations, it is made up crap stirred into a frenzy with a run on guns and ammunition.
T

[solinvictus]

21. It seems that you're trying to be consistent...

...that'll get you shouted down here. Obama's showing the same tendencies as the former El Presidente: using fear to push an agenda, surrounding himself with "yes" men and cronies from prior administrations, squashing dissent, not facing even the mildest criticism, etc. I don't care which letter a politician has after his name, I won't support authoritarianism.

[LWolf]

41. The more of us who can hold that line,

the healthier our nation will be.

In my opinion.

But then, I'm not a partisan.

[rwheeler31]

22. Well said, I want a true party fighting for the little guy.

The Dems are better than the Gop but the whole system needs change.

[omega minimo]

27. you don't associate "the rw and their talk show hosts or websites" with "those with money and power"

"it is the poor and powerless against those with money and power."

"I don't fear the rw and their talk show hosts or websites."

[Bluesbreaker]

28. Three problems with this post

1. The left has certain principles and political aspirations, regardless of who's president. No matter who occupies the White House, we should push for an end to torture, restoration of civil liberties and the rule of law, and end to government spying on its citizens, to name a few non-negotiable principles. To date, the Obama Administration has followed Bush policies in all of these areas. Just because he's a Democrat doesn't give him a pass when he doesn't do the right thing. His appointments of Wall Street insiders who have so far taken more than a trillion (one thousand billion) dollars of our money and given it to the very people who have destroyed our economy and jobs shows, at best, poor judgment. Anti-consumer, pro-agribusiness Secretary of Agriculture and pro-wolf hunting Secretary of the Interior, along with Steve "Mr. Nuke" Chu as Energy Secretary create a worrisome picture of a president who has quickly discarded many views that we thought he held when we voted for him.

2. We have 'one of our own' in power. Do we? The list of points where he has abandoned the left for the center, if not the right, grows longer and more alarming every day.

3. Those in power must be watched and held accountable, regardless of the party or campaign promises. Once elected, politicians all want to stay elected and political considerations overwhelm good policy decisions, unless there is a counter force pushing them to do the right thing. No matter who governs, the government should fear the people, not the other way around.

[Enthusiast]

29. Nah, those tea baggers are my enemy.

They are tea bagging mostly because President Obama is black, the rest, because they are sore losers. About 2% of their complaints are legit.

[Enthusiast]

32. You should change your name.

You say, "We felt our role was to keep the light on and keep bush on his toes, and keep people informed and afraid of what he might do - even if he didn't do it." ??? Like what he 'did' was not bad enough? He bankrupted the country going to war against a country that did nothing to us. His administration tortured! Until Bush, most of world thought of us as 'the good guys'. All the while he strutted around like a banty rooster crowing about his achievements - for eight years. The guy was truly despicable.

The RW stinks to high heaven. The enemy is the guy holding the moran sign. His is the face of ignorance and hatred. Most of the tea bagging is inspired because of President Obama's race, the rest because these spoiled babies are easily led sore losers. No one has designs on their weapons, yet they suck at the teat of stupidity.

I see no sign of blinders around here. President Obama is the recipient of much criticism on DU.

[WeDidIt]

33. One big difference

There are outright calls for armed insurrection now.

The difference is in the violent rhetoric.

[wuvuj]

34. We are now deeper...

...into a fascist state than it might appear when you look out the window?

Much like Sarah Palin...your position is.....I can't SEE a police state from here...you betcha?

"All lefties were not put into camps. Abortion was not overturned. We did not become another Nazi Germany as so many said we would. The damned patriot act had dem support, and the wars were funded by both parties."

Everything is in place for a kind of "soft fascism"...which is what America brings to the rest of the world under the pretense of bringing "freedom"...which is a cover for the exploitation of labor and resources around the world...INCLUDING as some now are finding out...in the US?

That was what 9/11 was all about? A rejection of America's version of "freedom"?

What you see in Israel...Iraq...Afghanistan...is your future. The same people who occupy Iraq...Afghanistan...occupy the US? The techniques and technology tested in the previously mentioned places by Israel and the US will be used IN the US.

The world is now entering a second Great Depression. Your govt and military know this...do you?

What is now "soft fascism" can flip over into the hard version as circumstances warrant. Think depression...peak resources...food...water...the stresses of global warming...refugee populations.

Most will see this as alarmist. They are right...the alarm has gone off....you are just starting to wake up?

Wake up...Amurica?

[barbtries]

36. looking at your poster

i was instantly reminded of the video i watched this weekend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNDQmm_TEMw

it's in 4 parts. the only difference is their outfits were black.

[wuvuj]

105. They change the colors depending on whether...

...they are on the streets domestically...invading another country...or...I'd guess...going into space.

The real point of that poster is that it is the *hidden surveillance* that is the issue.

[Usrename]

98. This is not a drill!

We have the technology to create our worst nightmare.

[CadenBlaker]

37. I agree.

Ironically, I too see the right wing doing exactly what we did for years. Honestly, it's so damn ironic they even use A LOT of the same language and issues, but from a right wing slant. It's enough to make me sick of it all. I'm a liberal, but I'm attempting to excise the crazy over time. I am floored by the politics of this nation and how extreme both sides really can be and am just sick of it.

[cobalt1999]

39. In reality there are just a few nuts from each side predicting dire consequences.

Most of the people here didn't buy into all the wailing and "the sky is falling" predictions about Bush. Probably the same on the RW sites too. Just a few make a lot of noise though.

[SlingBlade]

42. Day 83 EIGHTY-THREE

Nuff Said !

:kick:

[24601]

43. If you get flamed, then shame on us

I'm new here and have been reading for a while before venturing out to get an account for posting. I also don't view Americans, at least those not engaged in armed insurrection, as our enemies. And we have sufficient enemies that we don't need to be inventing internal enemies because of politics. I also have family that are conservative and I won't be throwing them under the bus.

It's been my observation that my world class statesman is never as good as I think and their scumbag politican is never as bad as I say. Nor do I own the President's agenda. A nominee represents a party but once taking the oath of office, any President represents all of us.

[Ohio Joe]

44. K&R - nt

[mntleo2]

45. Truth is Left or Right, It IS Class War...

....In all my years of being a leftie and all the work I have done as an activist, I have come to see that no matter what political stripe you are, it is all about the rich vs the poor. The middle class runs back and forth between the two parties, depending on which one benefits them the most. I will say Repigs are much more elitist than we lefties, but it should be no surprise that the lefties in power WILL be as elitist as the righties when it benefits their purses.

And the poor will ALWAYS get it in the rear while BOTH parties use the poor as their political football, screaming about low income moms being welfare queens so people will "quick, look over there" instead of seeing what was really happening to us, as they did in the 1990s with Welfare DeFormed. Meanwhile, as they were doing in the 1990s, the REAL welfare queens, the corporate elite, raid and pilfer every penny they can get while pointing the finger at the poor as the reason for all our woes, when in fact THEY are the reason for all our woes.

With the middle class at that time, it did little good to point any of this out. It did little to warn them that they were next if the poor were disenfranchised. They joined the rich and donned their pitchforks and torches and went after the welfare mom while right under their noses, with advocates vigorously pointing at the rich and trying to get the middle class to see what was happening, out of ignorance the middle class ran right past the rich and lynched the poor. Even though right under their noses, and in black and white, it could be proved that the poor's cost to the middle class was less than 3% of our revenue while the rich was taking literally millions of times more. Nope, nope, "lets just pour another glass of wine and watch Lifestyles Of The Rich and Famous, while Robin Whatshisname sickened those of us who knew the truth with his gushing of all the waste and fraud that manifested itself in yachts and mansions. As he did this the middle class swooned and sipped their wine with their own hopeless dreams of being the next subject of Robin Whathisname's show. It did little good to tell the middle class that the poor were the canaries in the mine and that if they could be used as slaves and fall guys, then the middle class would be next.

Well now, with the poor exhausted and dying, thanks to the safety net being torn away so they have no hope of ever getting anywhere even to feed their kids and pay the over-inflated rent, the middle class IS next. It makes little difference who is in power, though I will say we have a tiny bit more hope in who is in power right now. But, unless we want it to continue, we should NEVER let them get away with ignoring the abuses that were heaped upon Americans in the past 8 years. Illegal wars, wiretapping, the rich not having to pay their fair share, bloated banks raiding the treasury, all of it has to be called out.

I am not trying to alienate the classes against one another, but I know I saw what I saw. Being a patriot means being alert. It may mean allying ourselves with "strange bedfellows" and looking within ourselves for our own wrongs before we can really clean things up. It means that we have to take the pain of everyone doing without, as the poor already have been doing, working together, and celebrating the good we have done to see what more we can do. It means that the middle class better buck up and take it in the chin and then rise up with the poor to take it all back, since in reality, they let all this happen with their own laziness because, while the poor already knew the score, the rich duped them BAD. Now they are the "new poor" and they are next.

I remember a lesson I learned as a youngster with the account a Korean vet told us one time. He said he as a WWII vet who had seen some terrible combat, never felt such terror as when he fought the Chinese in Korea. He said that they kept coming and coming over the hill and no machine gun, bomb or anything would stop them as wave after wave of humanity kept coming and coming. BY sheer masses, the Chinese was far more powerful than all the modern hardware he had and that even an atomic bomb could make so much as a dent in the masses he saw. It taught me that there is something important in knowing that when there are more of "you" than there are of "them", it is a powerful thing to know. Time to join together as there are more of of the middle class and poor than there are the rich. Better get ready to work even harder because it is all an illusion that there are many differences between us while the rich pilfer everything we have gained. It is the rich vs the poor as it always was and the rich know full well they have all the guns and tanks while the poor only have sticks and rocks, but it will a great deal of good if they realize we will keep "coming and coming" until they throw down their legal weapons and diamond encrusted shields. The rich WILL win unless the rest of us join together and refuse to allow them to do it. Period.

Cat In Seattle

[antimatter98]

48. Excellent post..thank you.

We have been awakened since W to the reality that we're thought of by our government as an ATM machine, and
by corporations as the same. We're an endless stream of cash, that is funneled to the Treasury and
extracted by corporations every time we buy something, including health care, using credit cards or by
paying cash. In the retail marketplace, we buy at full price, and finance with 22% interest. We're
being used and played. Yes, W's regime made it worse perhaps, but with NAFTA signed by Clinton, and
the repeal of Glass-Stegall, signed by Clinton, we've been sent on the way down by our Congress and by
past presidents all the way back to Reagan.

All this is quite a bit to wake up to after only 8 years of W. Naomi Klein's book, "Shock Doctrine" spells
it out clearly. And today, we're seeing via the 'financial crisis,' that we've been looted, and we don't
have a president to stand up to this, and to stand up for Americans, and for the Constitution. Instead,
we have a president who, like George Bush Sr., is out of touch with Main Steet, but vitally interested in
globalism and catering to the elite.

That we voted for Obama with the belief that he would bring us back to the Constitution, normalcy, and address
domestic issues (remember when he promised we'd get the same health care Congress gets?) was laudable for
us as the 'voter,' but we were fooled by the slick marketing of the Obama compaign. He won, but dishonestly
so, because what he told us, he walked away from quite smoothly after election.

The question now is, assuming Obama is purposely blind to American needs, how to bring the change that we
thought we were voting for. Are Americans so marginalized and powerless that this is not possible? I don't
know.

Good Luck to all who work for a living.

[scheming daemons]

49. When the left is "freaked out", we hold sit-ins. When the right is "freaked out", they shoot people

THAT'S the freaking difference.

[anonymous171]

103. +1 nt

[nichomachus]

51. Read this book

"Opposing the System" by Charles Reich. He wrote this back in the '90s and the book died on the vine. But he lays out a good case for what this post is about.

Reich's claim was that the struggle is not about right vs. left, Dem vs. GOP, gay vs. straight, etc. -- but that these are all distractions designed to obscure the fact that it is us against "the system."

Back when the book came out, it was ignored because everyone was going to be an Internet billionaire by next week and no one wanted to hear it. But he sounded the warning that it was "the system" that was screwing us over and all the artificial divisions among us weren't worth shit, except to the people who profit from dividing and conquering us.

[Marrah_G]

52. Recommended- Great post.

[lumberjack_jeff]

53. They are simply late to the party.

The patriot act is still in force, your phone is still wiretapped, the US military is still preparing for domestic unrest in violation of the principle of Posse Comitatus and you still don't have the right to a trial.

Is it of greater concern that they're doing what we used to do, or that we stopped?

[Kajsa]

54. Excellent points, TSS.

K&R.

[Echo In Light]

55. The point isn't that the worst case scenarios of police state didn't fully materialize....

It's that the Establishment powers certainly did implement and embolden an infrastructure for that, usually w/o filling the people in on the details ...for obvious reasons since so much of the "war on terror" apparatus has been used to monitor anti-war types and dissidents. So the intent and shadowy fascist legislation is there. That's why so many were concerned, and those concerns are justified. Did congress vote for IMMUNITY for the telecoms or not? What's changed, or will change, under Obama's admin? Zero.

[mdmc]

59. All I expect from Obama is reelction

I know the GOP will be lamer then lame, and Obama will be the only option.
I know we are under the heel of corporations, but what can ya do?

[DutchLiberal]

60. Didn't the US became like Nazi-Germany? Really?

Have you read the latest reports about what happened to prisoners at Guantanamo Bay? That they were hung to the ceiling, wrapped in plastic and slammed against the wall? Some of them have been subjected to torture for almost 7 years, without ever even being charged with anything. Doesn't that sound like nazi practices?

Have you ever heard of something called the Military Commissions Act? The president had the power to single-handedly name anyone an 'enemy combatant' and have them locked up indefinitely, with no trial and no opportunity to prove one's innocence. It may not have happened, but he had the power. Dictatorial powers.

Bush may be out of power, but it was reported last week that Cheney has left behind a couple of dozen of people in all departments that report directly to him.

What has Obama done or what will he do that mirrors these actions? There was factuality in our claims about Bush's dictatorial abuses. Where is the truth in the freeper's statements? Is Obama leading the way to socialism? Is Obama going to take away your guns? Last week there was a news report about a guy who went on a shooting spree because he believed the president was going to take away his guns. Where did you think he got that idea?

[G_j]

61. exactly nt

[Uzybone]

65. How easy we forget

I'm not sure what it is, but once the bullet is dodged the same liars come in to try and convince us that Democrats and Republicans are the same.

[Echo In Light]

70. It's not so much "forgetting," but 'reasonable' sounding reinforcement of Big Lies

[DutchLiberal]

97. On many issues, they are the same.

When it comes to sustaining the economic, social and military status quo, they're largely the same. Torture has occurred under Democratic presidents, too, although it was 'merely outsourced' to the CIA, doing it in foreign countries. And Democrats are by and large as militaristic and nationalistic as their Republican counterparts. Most of them serve the same special interest groups.

However, I know a lot of good ones on the Democratic side (like president Carter, Ted Kennedy, Kucinich, Feingold, Wexler, Whitehouse, Leahy). I don't know one on the Republican side. And the right-wing has no ideas. They have to stoop to ad hominem attacks and spreading fear and paranoia. Just listen to Michelle Bachmann. I can't imagine a Democrat going batshit over a Republican president. Those few, but brave ones that spoke up against Bush didn't have to stoop to mud-slinging. They just had to sum up the facts, and they did. Republicans now have nothing on Obama, so they try to get the people to fear him. And they have the MSM at their disposal, something which the Democrats have in only very few occasions.

The distinction I was making, was between Bush and Obama specifically. Although Obama has made some bad moves, like protecting Bush and Cheney by not releasing NSA documents, although a court had ordered so. But I guess he doesn't want to end like John Kennedy or Jimmy Carter.

[OwnedByFerrets]

63. Right On TSS!!

[Blue Belle]

64. Well said...

thanks for reminding us how easy it is to fall into the trap of partisanship.

[bvar22]

67. K&R

I think most of your post went over the heads of the partisans.

I'm pesonally drawing my line in the sand at Health Care Reform.
There will be only ONE explaination if the Obama plan does NOT include a viable, well financed Public Non-Profit HealthCare Option.

[Martin Eden]

68. Apples & Oranges

The central theme of your argument doesn't hold water because you are comparing the fringe left with the mainstream right. Sure, there were some on the left making extreme predictions about the Bush administration that didn't come to pass, but if you compare the rhetoric of the liberal media & Democrats in office during GW's terms with Fox News & elected wingnuts like Bachmann of Minnesota today you will find there is no equivalence.

If anything, the "liberal" media and elected Democrats were far behind the curve in speaking out against the real crimes of the Bush administration. They repeatedly failed to take a stand when it mattered most, and now 4,200+ American soldiers are dead and the corporate kleptocracy has us on the verge of another Great Depression.

The fact that Dems in Congress contributed to this sad state of affairs only further diminishes the argument that the "right" is merely doing now what the "left" did the last 8 years -- the right is NOT complicit in helping Obama implement his agenda!!!

One has only to read today's "Top 10 Conservative Idiots" to see the enormous chasm between mainstream Democratic opposition during the Bush years and the charges being leveled against Obama by Fox news and Republican wingnuts in Congress. A reality check will reveal there is little comparison.

You made some good points in your post. We have to be vigilant and speak out no matter who is in office. But please don't fall into the trap of papering over Bush's crimes and the dangerously misleading propaganda of Fox news by suggesting we are/were no different. The comparison is inaccurate and it plays into the hands of our REAL enemies -- not the morans who swallow the propaganda, but the rich & powerful who issue it.

[LiberalLovinLug]

80. Good point

"comparing the fringe left with the mainstream right"

Mainstream Republican politicians like Bachmann and Mainstream rightwing TV and Radio hosts like Beck are calling for armed resistance, and projecting a dark totalitarian socialist state if it doesn't happen.

And just the fact that this OP poster can write such a piece on a "lefty" site and NOT get flamed is revealing in itself. What would happen if, during Dubya's tenure, someone wrote a mirror piece and posted it on the FreeRepublic?

Fact is most of us DO think we are right and they are wrong on most issues. Otherwise we would not be frequenting this board. And we do criticize Obama, and rightly so. In fact Obama has to deal with critics from all directions. Dubya only had the "looney left" who were dismissed and not allowed air time to table their complaints on the "liberal" media. The right always shushed up any dissension quickly, or it was just that their authoritarian minds just couldn't take it in. Anyone who criticized Bush who was a former lock-step righty was quickly disenfranchised from Paul O'Neill onwards. David Kuo, second in command of Bush's faith based initiative, did not shake the faithful's belief that their Commander in Chief was Jesus's Holy Warrior when he wrote a tell all book about how BushCo. did not carry through with money he promised, and that he was ridiculed behind closed doors as a 'crazy fundie'. Haggard, Foley's and Craig's behavior did not alter the rights view that it is the lefties that are the perverts and child molesters. Regularly it seems the right can spew the most outrageous slime (and do the most slimey things) and it just gets ignored by the faithful sheep.

As you can see on this board, Obama doesn't get away with anything.

[RoseMead]

71. Amen!

I logged on just to say that. Very good post.

[Joe Fields]

72. apples and oranges.

Your logic doesn't exactly fit, although I thoroughly understand where you are coming from.

[varelse]

74. k&r

thank you!

[bbgrunt]

75. that's the most sense I've seen posted here in a long time. Well done.

[bamacrat]

79. Because they have a huge amount of media outlets that trumpet these fears.

We had virtually none. They have talk radio, all of it, Fox News which as stupid as it is gets huge ratings and is on 24/7. Also we never called people to arms, never promoted the idea that malitias are good upstanding Americans. We had no voice that would be heard, the Daily Show was about it, and that is a comedy show. THey have most of the media and that makes it worse. Ooooh we have MSNBC please other than KO and Rachel Maddow its as scripted as the rest. Also we want all to prosper and benefit from being American, they only want people who already have plenty to benefit from being and American.

[pattmarty]

82. Ok, what exactly are trying to fucking say? Not protest? Protest?

Bush was really an ok president? He wasn't? You pick and choose your fights on the basis on what you TRULY believe in. Bush was an awful president by any measure. I thinks Obama is wrong in his handling of the financial mess, and his "new" Afghan policy. You stand up and criticize what you as an individual think is wrong, and you stand and cheer when you think the policy is right. Your post seems you are very confused.

[The Straight Story]

99. Part of what I am saying is simply this:

From my op:

"
Round and round it goes on boards like this when it comes to people in power and politics. When the rw is scared of Obama we tell them they are going overboard. When we do it we are just being good and aware citizens trying to protect ourselves."

The rw fears us as much as we do them - but we both seem to have similar fears: That those in power will reduce our rights and when we feel they are doing so we speak out against them.

Problem is, too many play party politics and race to defend their own people in power. The rw defended bush day in and out, all the while he was screwing over their core principles. As the opposition party we were able to see through it all and call BS on it.

Now we have our people in power and it seems instead of looking at the opposition and trying to see where they may have a point we rally to defend and tell them they are nuts (and we tell them they are so because they spout the same things against our folks as we did their folks).

It comes down to us and them both defending the people in power, our 'team', and becoming apologists in order to keep power. And yet those in power aren't giving us what we want, anymore than those previously in power gave the rw what it really wanted.

In the end, both sides get screwed by the very people we spend so much energy to defend. Both sides spend a large amount of time attacking those in power who do not represent them, and defend those in power we believe do. And yet we both get people who betray our beliefs in the name of simply getting along and being in the middle.

We acted like the rw is now for 8 years. nothing bush did was ever, ever, seen as right or good here. And to the rw nothing Obama ever does will be good - and we find them silly for not seeing things in a broader light. We will continue to pay for these wars, folks will still go without health care, gays won't serve openly, and the status quo - with few exceptions - will continue on.

It has sadly become about us vs them - and not when it comes to the people in power but the people on message boards, etc. We get so distracted fighting with each other and defending those in power on our side that shit just slides right by us. And those calling it out are seen as not being loyal members propping up the party.

We the people keep losing, because we are too busy fighting one another and calling each other morans and bitching about how stupid we are in what we stand for that we don't see what is really going on.

The people in power along with the corporations and elites in power get what they want, because they play both sides equally and use their power to get what they want no matter who is in office.

We lose because we find each other to be more of the enemy than those in power who fail to carry through with the issues we elected them to fix.

We have gotten so lost in seeing where each side is wrong that we have let those who are really doing us wrong off the hook - and partially out of fear that we won't get someone elected with a letter after their name that we share.

We didn't win if we didn't get the change we demanded. And I don't blame Obama himself for this, he is but one person in a large government. We need to focus on the whole picture, from local to congress, to other officials.

Both sides have lost getting what they wanted for the same damn reasons - we got too loyal and found our enemies were not the people we elected but that our enemies were each other. We were right to fear those in power who opposed us, but it seems we lose all sense when those in power share something common with us.

The people have lost. The elite and politicians have won.

[backtoblue]

84. Politics are blurry....

This is why a third party isn't getting enough support to be a serious contender for Presidency. The Republicans and Democrats alike depend on the other's failures in order to maintain/regain control of the country.

[jdadd]

86. I think this is what George Carlin was saying....

"The real owners are the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians, they're an irrelevancy. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They've long since bought and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the statehouses, the city halls. They've got the judges in their back pockets. And they own all the big media companies, so that they control just about all of the news and information you hear. They've got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying ­ lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want; they want more for themselves and less for everybody else."

"But I'll tell you what they don't want. They don't want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don't want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking. They're not interested in that. That doesn't help them. That's against their interests. They don't want people who are smart enough to sit around the kitchen table and figure out how badly they're getting taken by a system that threw them overboard 30 years ago.

"You know what they want? Obedient workers ­ people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork but just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, reduced benefits, the end of overtime and the vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it. And, now, they're coming for your Social Security. They want your retirement money. They want it back, so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And you know something? They'll get it. They'll get it all, sooner or later, because they own this place. It's a big club, and you ain't in it. You and I are not in the big club."

"This country is finished."

[valerief]

88. That's it in a nutshell! nt

[kaygore]

89. Big difference: We didn't threaten to kill & media progressives and liberals

did not incite us to riot, kill, or threaten to kill. Jon Stewart did not suggest that we take up weapons and find Cheney's secret hiding place. Maddow did not tell us that Bush did not deserve to live. And so on. But look at the example below:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8339505

This is a VERY big difference.

[SkyDaddy7]

91. Since we are in the spirit of asking questions...

I want to ask a few...

Question-How can you say the Republicans did not get what they wanted during the Bush years? 5yrs with no vetoes. Don't fall for the Conservative Values Fiscal Responsibility Argument PLEASE!

Question-Were those on the left during the Bush years promoting violence against our government? Have you watched FOX TABLOID News? I have no idea about you but it does not sound like the rhetoric coming from left to me!

"Wars based on lies" IRAQ was based on LIEs...Afghanistan was grossly mishandled.
(Side Note)If you buy into the religion of Alex Jones and/or the 9/11 Truth Club this question is not for you...As you do not have the ability to grasp reality much like those who worship Bronze Age Myths.

Question-Do you think it would have been better to have just attempted talks with the Taliban and Al-Qaeda after 9/11 instead of sending our military in?

Question-Do you think President Obama is the same as Bush when it comes to foreign policy and how he looks at the world? Did Bush and the Republicans even care about Middle East Peace until their last few months in Office?

Question-Do you think it would have been wise to leave the banks, financial institutions, Insurance Companies, and auto companies alone until next year while President Obama's budget was being debated in congress? If not, then why talk as if President Obama is favoring the banks over us? These are not separate problems that can be dealt with each by themselves. Remember the stool President Obama spoke of? Well, never mind you do not trust Obama, from what you and a growing number of people have said here on DU President Obama only cares about the rich and is no better than a Republican. Many of you have actually called him a Republican.


Question- Was the $800 Billion stimulus package for the banks or the largest attempt in the history of this country to try and help those of us hurting? If you missed this legislation try an Google "American Recovery and Reinvestment Act" or if you can stomach anything the Obama Administration has to say then go to http://www.recovery.gov/

Must read and understand the above question before reading the next one...

Question-Do you think if President Obama just ignored the banks and the credit crunch as so many of you and the (out of power) Republicans wanted that the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act would have any impact whatsoever?

Question-Was Obama's $275 Billion Housing Plan not for us? I personally know two families that this plan not only saved them money but saved them from being homeless! DO YOU REMEMBER THE RANT BY RICK SANTELLI and the REPUBLICANS? Look at what that plan has already done for so many of us ordinary Americans! Does the success of this program matter to you? Or does it bother you, make you really MAD that banks are making money off refinancing so many homes?

Question- WHY IS THERE NO INTEREST or POST ABOUT ALL THE HISTORIC MOVES PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS ALREADY DONE FOR US?

Question-WHY IS IT THAT WE ARE ONLY 3 MONTHS INTO PRESIDENT OBAMA'S 4YRS TERM AND MANY HERE SAY AND ARGUE THAT OBAMA IS NO BETTER THAN REPUBLICANS? ...Or that he is in fact a Republican as many have said.

QUESTION-WHAT WOULD THE COUNTRY LOOK LIKE RIGHT NOW WITH REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT JOHN MCCAIN AND HIS BRONZE AGE DARLING SARAH PALIN? Spending freeze anyone? More tax breaks for the top 5% anyone? Bronze Age laws banning anything Sarah Palin thinks is not moral?

STATEMENT-I am very proud of the job President Obama is doing! I could care less if the COOL thing to do here on DU is to ignore the FACTS and join Rush, Sean , Glenn and the rest of FOX News and label President Obama a failure NOT EVEN MONTHS INTO HIS TERM. I understand these are hard times I was dropped by my Insurance Company (Principal Financial) because I cost to much after a devastating Spinal Cord Injury but I refuse to let my anger override my ability to understand reality! President Obama does not favor the rich over us and those who say he does are WRONG!

I am new here and I love this forum...However, I am growing very confused as to what it is most of you here want? Questioning our leaders is a MUST but getting worked up into a mindless mob does nothing! Look at the TEA BAGGERS!

I know I will be attacked with pick forks, tar & feathered, and possible hung for saying ASKING QUESTIONS that do not conform to the MOB but I am looking at the BIG PICTURE despite how bad I personally need some relief.

I am 100% behind OUR President right now, I will continue to drink the Kool-Aid as it is tasting really SWEET to me! I think a growing number of people are losing sight of what Obama has already done and is trying hard to get done through his historic budget proposal. And to compare the Bush years and the rhetoric from the left during those years to what the Bronze Age thinking freaks are doing on the right is INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOW MANY LEFT WING LIBERALS WENT ON KILLING SPREES DUE TO RUMORS SPREAD BY THE LEFT WING LIBERAL BIAS MEDIA?

Seriously, what happened to critical thinking and rational thought here on DU that made me want more than anything to be a part of?

[The Straight Story]

92. It wasn't about Obama/bush so much as about politically minded people

Both sides can engage in the same tactics/scare tactics. We didn't see it as fomenting hate against bush and we didn't worry someone would snap because of it when we compared him to hitler, we were filled with people saying the end was near, we were sure bush would do things he never did.

The rw is doing that now with Obama. I am behind Obama too (though I don't always agree with him) and I think I have posted as much many times.

I don't get why we are surprised of slamming the idiots on the rw for saying the same things we did - all in all people get sucked into the person in power, if not their guy/gal, is evil and out to destroy the earth, take our rights away, and ship us off to fema camps.

Obama may well be our leader during the end of the world (see my thread predicting he would be elected based on a Nostradamus prophecy, posted it as a joke but hey I was right, he beat Hillary... :rofl: )

There is a mirror we can hold up between some on the rw and lw - all the while politicians keep chugging along and screwing us over on some core issues.

Some folks just get a little kooky over it all sometimes. And it is not just one side.

[SkyDaddy7]

93. I totally agree both sides get carried away sometimes

However, when the left uses their "Hitler" rhetoric we hit the streets with bull horns and signs but the right has a majoe media outlet that many think is real news. The potential for violence is much greater in my opinion.

BTW-My post was not so much aimed your post but rather a venting of what I see not to be questioning Obama but kinda a very narrow view of what he has done and is trying to do.

I can understand questioning Obama and I do it often. The Rick Warren thing hurt me! However, knowing what Obama has already done and what he is trying to do in terms of the big picture seems to have been lost in the bank bailout. I think this is unfair as without doing so none of the other stuff matters. Like it or not we have a Capitalist system and the banks have to be worling for all other policies to have any positve outcome. Especially the stimulus bill.

Again, I understand your post I just wish a post would come along that actually took into count what Obama has actually done and even more what his budget is laying the groundwork for! If passed it will change this country in a way I am for and in the way I voted

[northzax]

94. what's the difference?

frankly, only the nutty wing of the left thought we were about to invade Iran, or establish concentration camps, or become a true fascist state (seriously, it was popular here, sadly, you'd have find me arguing against it much of the time) right now, there is no non-nutty wing of the Right. This isn't internet message boards lighting up with midnight pajama Mafiosi, it's senators and congressfolk being nutso.

[SkyDaddy7]

96. Yeah, I agree...

And there has already been 3 cops killed bc of the crazy crap coming from those Bronze Age thinking monsters