Pirates - my last words on the matter

[Stinky The Clown]

I posted my essential thoughts in another post with but two words and a single picture: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5443406

I had previously suggested that once we rescued the good captain, we ought to vaporize the perps, their lair, and their lair mates. Not Somalia. Just all those connected to the Somali pirates.

The Navy, in general, and the Seal team in particular, are the heroes here. Like a Coast Guard swimmer who jumps from a helicopter into an angry sea with nothing but goggles, a snorkel, and flippers, they put their lives on the line to save another. That's what heroes do. The captain was a victim. A noble victim, to be sure, but a victim.

I commend President Obama, but more on a pro forma basis than anything else. The American presidency, no matter the name of the officeholder, is a singular job at a time like this. I have no doubt whatever that any one of the 44 men who have held the office would have given the same order. The test of greatness is what the president - and the country - does in the aftermath. There I think President Obama will stand taller than many, surely taller than the small man he succeeds. I don't expect posturing; it isn't his way.

There is risk to giving such an order, to be sure. The last two Democratic presidents both had to give similar orders. Jimmy Carter had Iran and Bill Clinton had Waco. Both went bad, not in order, but in execution. Neither outcome could have been changed by either president - except to not have given the order. And that is unacceptable.

Obama will prove himself on this action not now, but in the weeks and months ahead. The matter of piracy in that region of the world is a very real and growing danger. A marker was put down today. Revenge (by the pirates' lair mates - see above) has been sworn.

One more issue is placed on the plate of another American President. I'm glad that, this time, It is the man we have.




Edit to add a question: Does anyone know the specific tactics the Seals employed to effect the rescue?

[Muttocracy]

1. NYT has some details - night vision etc. :

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/13/world/africa/13pirates.html?hp

[rug]

2. They shot them in the head.

[WeDidIt]

40. EXCELLENT MARKSMANSHIP!!!

GO NAVY!

[rug]

48. How about those Pakistani drones?

GO WARWHORE!

[WeDidIt]

51. How 'bout those DU features?

<click>

[greguganus]

53. LOL! n/t

[hlthe2b]

3. You might want to read up on "who all is connected to these pirates"

I'm glad this rescue effort went well. I'm glad others are likewise glad, including some who harshly criticized Obama for being weak, since he elected not to go "nuclear" from day one. But, those who think it is going to be easy to "vaporize" or even hold accountable "all who are connected to these pirates" might look at the clusterfu_k we know as Iraq. Somalia is no less tribal, nor complicated....

[Stinky The Clown]

7. So, having laid out the caution, your suggestion is ....... ?

[hlthe2b]

8. International strategy with our allies & CAUTION

THis is an international problem. We handled our own hostage situation, as did the French with a combination of diplomacy and military might. As may be required in the future... but some would like us drawn into a war with Somalia, including some DUers posting over the weekend. TO them, I say turn off the testosterone pump and chill out.


With a h/tip to Frenchicat:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8336860

[Stinky The Clown]

11. The only difference I note between you and me is ....

.... timing. Unless you're willing to tolerate more piracy. Which I doubt.

[hlthe2b]

12. Explain....please

I don't follow... :shrug:

What is it you propose to do with the various tribal factions in SOmalia, given their corrupt and weak government?

[Stinky The Clown]

16. "The pirates, their lair and their lair mates"

Implicit in that is finding out who all those people are. Specifically. There's probably no more than a relative few.

A few score?

Few hundred?

Few thousand?

All tolled ... still a very few.

And I prefer not to argue with you. Particularly in that we mostly agree.

[hlthe2b]

17. I agree...

You are arguing rationally, unlike most here the past few days.

[eridani]

39. They don't have a "lair"

They live among a mostly civilian population, just like the bad guys in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[HughMoran]

28. Yes, without a government to control these pirate people, this will not cease any time soon

I hope nobody thinks that these incidents will stop happening any time soon. There was a gruesome example on a cop show last night when a guy died in his apartment and his dogs were eating his rotting flesh. The dogs had to be put down - "Once they get the taste of human flesh, they can't be trusted again around people". Strange example I know, but it just popped into my head - lol.

[greguganus]

55. I would trust the dogs with living people. n/t

[HughMoran]

56. So you think there'll be no more acts of piracy by Somalis?

??

[Muttocracy]

4. thread with more detail:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5444138

[Stinky The Clown]

18. Thanks for that!

:hi:

[liberalmuse]

5. Well said! n/t

[NYC_SKP]

6. Iran is a fair comparison. Waco is simply not.

Waco was an uber fuck up, made worse and worse and worse by a whole series of fuck ups in an operation begun under flimsy premises, by the government.

There is no comparison.

The rest of your OP is commendable.

Recommended.

PS: I don't know but also await the details of the operation, I gather they were there on the fantail in case an opportunity arose, and it did. S.O.P in a deal like this.

[MichaelHarris]

9. I've said this so many times my head hurts

Any time a law enforcement agency comes to your door with guns and a warrant you open the door and say, "hello, how may I help you today?" If you instead, slam the door and start shooting you get exactly what they got. If the case was a mess let the courts deal with it. Not one BATF or FBI person killed anyone in that compound, the leaders of the compound did all the killing, either by their own hands or their actions.

[NYC_SKP]

13. Not mutually exclusive, what you and I each wrote.

There were fuck ups all around on both sides, no doubt.

And Waco is still just not a good comparison, Somalia much more on point, as indicated in another reply to this OP.

[DevonRex]

62. Thank you. That's the truth. nt

[johnfunk]

26. ... and Bush had Iraq. Hundreds of thousands dead.

[sandnsea]

10. I would say Bill Clinton on Somalia

Waco was well set into motion and there was no reason to believe it would be anything more than a routine arrest.

I also disagree that every President would handle this the same. We usually wait a lot longer before taking military action. The swiftness in this instance is interesting. I hope future warmongers don't use it as an excuse to use swiftness in cases when patience is required.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. See ... to me, that's one of the interesting parts. I see it as military assets doing police work.

Yes, technically, it was a 100% military action - except for the FBI and CIA.

What we had was a single hostage situation. If this happened in Cleveland or Dubuque or Scottsdale, the SWAT guys would have showed up, hopefully ended it successfully, and then retired to their cop bar of choice to hoist a celebratory few.

The Seals played the role of SWAT in today's drama. The captain had a rifle to his back and there was a finger on the trigger. Immediacy was the only option.

I think the sitrep that hit the White House would have met the same conclusion from any one of them. No option but to act immediately.

[Mind_your_head]

20. Interesting "mix" of cities there.....WHY?

You said: If this happened in Cleveland or Dubuque or Scottsdale

Population of Cleveland........ 2,250,871
http://www.city-data.com/us-cities/The-Midwest/Cleveland-Population-Profile.html

Population of Scottsdale.........3,251,876
http://www.city-data.com/us-cities/The-West/Scottsdale-Population-Profile.html

Population of Dubuque...........92,384 in 2006
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubuque_County,_Iowa

Dubuque is not ANYWHERE NEAR in the league of Cleveland or Scottsdale. Why did you name it/put it in the mix? Inquiring minds want to 'know'. Something smells here (I guess that's why you're called "stinky"? :shrug:)

[Stinky The Clown]

21. Just cutting a swath across "flyover" America

The cities were random.

[Mind_your_head]

27. Sure.

Nothing 'untoward' better not happen in Dubuque. Otherwise, you're my very first suspect.

[Stinky The Clown]

29. Or victim

[Mind_your_head]

30. Wow. Is that a threat? n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

31. The 'victim' referred to was me

what kind of bug flew up your ass? :shrug:

[Mind_your_head]

32. tiny :violins:

:nopity:

:eyes:

[Stinky The Clown]

34. .....

I'd be much obliged if you could leave the safety of your little delusional world and tell me what you're talking about ....... and your obsession with Dubuque.

Also, do you always post links to population when cities are mentioned ........

.... or .... are you one of ...... you know ....... "them"?




eta the leading "y" in "you're"

[Mind_your_head]

37. My FAMILY "hails from"/lives in and around Dubuque.....

I don't want to see any "shooters gone wild" in Dubuque.

I'm not one of "them" ....you stinky little clown. Perhaps *YOU* are, though? Not sure.....ALMOST SURE though.......

[Stinky The Clown]

41. See if you can figure this one out, bright light.

http://images.artnet.com/picture.asp?date=19990628&catalog=10619&gallery=111548&lot=00147&filetype=2

[sandnsea]

23. Oh absolutely

I have just chosen to avoid that particular topic. When will they send in the marines to save a little old lady from being carjacked? 25,000 murders a year and we're worked up because some "other" did the crime. :crazy:

Not that I think these pirates should be ignored or are some kind of freedom fighters, but the military?? Seems a bit much, although I know he has scored huge points with the majority of the right.

[Stinky The Clown]

25. I'm not sure I follow

This was out in international waters halfway around the globe.

There's no local cop house.

If not the military, then who? :shrug:

[sandnsea]

36. I suppose what the NRA tells me

I've got no right to expect cops to save me. They are only there to investigate. I'm on my own. Silly Captain Phillips, where was his glock?

Seriously, the CIA, DEA, something a little less ominous than warships.

[Mind_your_head]

33. self-delete

[Stinky The Clown]

35. Okay, you're on your own

Tell the head ya done good right up to the part where ya got made.

I'm leaving, but feel free to stay and play with yourself

[dysfunctional press]

54. "The swiftness in this instance is interesting"

from what i understand, they felt that they had to do something before the lifeboat was able to get to shore- and they didn't really act all that 'swiftly', instead letting it drift on awhile before coming to a resolution.

[sandnsea]

59. The boat would have gone to shore

in years past. Under any President. It would have gone on and on. This was swift without being provocative. The only ones I've heard say otherwise are right wing nuts.

[dysfunctional press]

69. i don't agree with your opinion on that.

and i doubt that the captain or his family considered the action to be 'swift'.

i'm not saying that it was handled incorrectly- i just don't think that it would have been allowed to reach shore, no matter who was commander-in-chief at the time.

[sandnsea]

70. I think Terry Anderson's family

would consider it swift. Along with many other American hostages over the last 30 years.

[dysfunctional press]

71. which would still make it an extremely minority opinion.

[sandnsea]

72. You and rightwingers are the minority n/t

[Mind_your_head]

14. Yeah. Jimmy Carter and the Iran Hostage Situation.......

that's A BIG THING that makes a citizen go "hmmmmm" & "wtf".

Carter & the Iranian Hostage Situation is a HUGE FLAG that there INDEED is a WHOLE LOTTA of "something" 'going on behind the curtain' that we proles weren't allowed to see/know.

------------

I'm glad the good captain is safe. Unlike you, I'm not gonna pull out my flag & "wave it" just now (although I have the utmost respect for our service men/women).

There's more that goes on behind the scene that we are not 'allowed' to see/know. I would like to know the backstory, but that ain't gonna happen by watching Fox/CNN, et al. The MSM now is just a propaganda organ that just wants to manipulate people's thoughts/emotions, and hence their future actions.

[Captain Hilts]

19. Victims and heroes are different. I appreciate your noting that. But I'll put Phillips in the

'hero' category for offering himself in exchange for the safety of his crew.

But, yes. The sailor Robert Steedam was not a hero when he was shot on that TWA flight, flight attendant Uli Derikson was because she intervened to save the life of the 2nd sailor. Reagan got that one wrong.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. Fair enough

Yes, he was both.

There are big differences between victim and hero.

And then the recent blurred lines around Capt Sullenberger and the Hudson water landing. (<----- PLEASE let us not veer off topic because I brought this up)

[Name removed]

22. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muriel_volestrangler]

38. Just to be clear: have you withdrawn the suggestion of 'vaporizing' all those associated

with the pirates?

If not, can we discuss the similarity between that and ex-president Bush's policy of killing tens of thousands of Iraqis, eg in Fallujah?

[Stinky The Clown]

42. Explained upthread. Unflair your nostrils, head ye off, and read ........

So, no, I haven't changed my mind. But you, dear outraged Muriel, have falsely interpreted what was said. My suggested target is a few miscreants. You seem to want to take umbrage with the demand for a broadened target never suggested. But of course, if you acquiesce and accept you were wrong, you'd likely lose points among your posse mates. So you cling to your position even as it it is shown to be untenable.

Yell, dear outraged Muriel, yell. It is so good for your soul.

.... or whatever ....... :eyes:

[muriel_volestrangler]

46. No, not "a few miscreants" - "all those connected to the Somali pirates"

In your OP.

Yes, you have sunk to the level of George Bush. Or a lynch mob.

[Stinky The Clown]

65. Ahhhh .... Emily, Emily, Emily ......

:sigh:

[lunatica]

43. Actually the captain put himself in the place of his crew, so he is a hero

At least know your facts. And if you say it's his job so therefore he's no hero, then anyone in special ops is exactly the same. Putting your life on the line takes many forms

[Stinky The Clown]

45. I learned that upthread and agreed. Why the need to state so shittily that I need to learn my facts?

Do you feel better saying it that way? Or was it your intent to be disagreeable? These questions are real, not rhetorical.

Why the need to cop that attitude toward me?

[lunatica]

47. Because you made a double point of saying the Captain wasn't a hero

Only a victim, and that's a skewering of the facts. It diminishes his actions which in the end possibly saved at least some of the lives of his crew. He chose to put his life on the line and you just dismiss it as pure victimhood in some form or other. Being a 'victim' does't trump heroism. I think you were plenty dismissive with your attitude.

[Stinky The Clown]

49. :sigh:

Please read my specific exchange on this specific topic in this specific thread.

Someone made the point that the captain, involunteering to be taken hostage was, indeed, a hero.

I agreed with that without argument.

Is that not good enough for you?

And you didn't answer my non rhetorical question regarding your attitude toward me.

[lunatica]

50. I already answered your question

I may think you didn't have your facts straight but I don't think you're stupid. I just disagree completely with your statement that Captain Phillips was just a victim and feel he deserves far more credit that you were giving him. If you then changed your mind that's good on you. I was reacting to your initial statements and didn't think I needed to get permission from other commenters down thread before doing so. I still don't think I need to read the entire thread because you also said it was your last word on the subject.

[Stinky The Clown]

52. :rofl:

You are thick as a post, aren't you? Go ahead, stick to your untenable position at all costs. That makes you look real nuanced and real evolved. :eyes:

[lunatica]

67. You're the one who doesn't get that I already answered you

You keep demanding that I answer you and I've done so three times now. So who's the thick one? You wrote it and now you want to be crybaby for being called on it.

[Stinky The Clown]

68. Actually, you deftly *avoided* answering me

I asked why you have such a shitty attitude toward me. Scroll up .... you'll see. It was very clear.

Why

Did

You

Couch

Your

Comments

In

Such

A

Shitty

Tone

??

That was the question. You never answered it.

[Stinky The Clown]

44. I'd like to recognize the three people in this thread who so marvelously contributed ......

...... to its value as pure entertainment. I started the thread quite seriously, stated my views, and was prepared to discuss them. As usual, more time was spent at the margins, dealing with these three geniuses of intenert discourse.

For pure imaginative umbrage, the award goes to the discussion that, among other things, informed us all of the population of Dubuque and the until-now-unknown irrational fear some (very small?) measure of that population have of a clown who has publicly stated his total opposition to guns running amok with exactly that - a gun. Did I say imaginative umbrage? Perhaps irrational umbrage would be a better description.

For perfunctory hate that clearly was less than heartfelt but, in the mind of the hater, somehow obligatory, we have the nonsequtorial connection between the OP and a case of tree seeds. That one led to the OP's gaining permission to call out the poster, without the poster getting permission to reciprocate. More importantly, however, no one really knows what the poster's actual intent was, do they? Maybe it is the internet equivalent of street theater and intellectual pantomime. If true, the fact still remains even ages since it first surfaced - nobody likes a mime.

And then we have the latter day Emily Latella. Not nearly as well played as when by the great Gilda Radner, it was more on a par with unpaid community theater, at least in terms of its entertainment value. I hope at least her friends and family got to witness her heart-stopping nostril flares.


Thank you all for an entertaining end to the weekend a start to what will be a busy work week. Please feel free to take bows here.

[JackRiddler]

57. "Their lair mates" - that's you too.

Do you live in a city?

Then by your own doctrine of killing "lair mates" you probably qualify for "immediate vaporization." Odds are good you are the "lair mate" of a criminal yourself.

If we applied your standard to American practitioners of carjacking, robbery or assault, let alone to white collar killers like the bankers, then it would be all right to bomb their blocks, right? "Lair mates," block mates, neighborhoods, towns, tough shit: bombs don't discriminate and whenever possible we're going to do this by remote control to keep our precious heroic soldiers safer, right?

Can you even name three towns in Somalia? Why, fuck'em. Are children among the "lair mates"? Tough shit, bad choice of birth. Especially of skin color.

It's thanks to your mentality that in the last 60 years, the United States military has exceeded all others in killing more human beings outside the borders of its home country. By far. Millions of civilians in Vietnam, Central America, Iraq and dozens of other countries were exterminated -- for the most part, as "lair mates." From the air. Collateral damage. Oops. Too bad. And that's why a few of them would like to kill you, right now. Rather irrationally, since odds are you never ordered a killing, just led the cheering from the TV watchers section.

"Lair mates." "Qualify for immediate vaporization." Do you think the cute phrases disguise the fact of murder? Does it help you keep distance from your own depravity?

[Stinky The Clown]

58. You're late to the party, sport

Discussed upthread. If you care what I think, you'll read it. If you don't care or if you plan to just be a kneejerk commenter, this will have to be the end of it.

[closeupready]

60. I agree with this post.

The bloodlust popular today sickens me. We are a sick society.

[Stinky The Clown]

61. Yu agree with a post that is wrong?

You can agree with the sentiment, no matter if it is wrong. The underlying issue of what I said, which is what the post addresses, is wrong, however.

But that's okay ... you can be as wrong as you like.

[closeupready]

63. I agree w/the idea that relishing the thought of exterminating other humans is disgusting & fillthy.

Not that this is necessarily what you were doing.

We need to keep perspective on the big picture, that these are real people with families and mothers, fathers, and children of their own, who love them.

For the most part, I think a vast majority of us are all pretty much fine with punishing the perpetrators.

[Stinky The Clown]

64. And punishing the perps is what was suggested.

See? We agree.

[davsand]

66. Stinky, I pretty much agree with you about cleaning out that pirate nest.

I realize it isn't exactly popular on here to sit and advocate for that sort of thing, but this pirate mess has been allowed to continue WAY to long.

We have an intelligence community, and we have all manner of ways to make sure that becoming a pirate is no longer viewed as a smart career move or anything that contributes to a long life. Taking out a couple hundred miscreants NOW may just save a bunch of lives on down the road--including Somali pirate "wanna-bes." In essence, it is like telling kids "Don't try this at home."

Makes sense to me.

:shrug:



Laura