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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:15 PM
Original message
"No real danger in the world ....
Edited on Sun Apr-12-09 10:24 PM by smalll
... except that which America brings upon itself through our own clumsy and misguided foreign policy."

Someone said that about Democrats just over four years ago. He was wrong about Democrats at large, but hasn't Pirategate made it clear that there is a sizeable minority amongst us who really thinks that way?

And an old Democrat by the name of Kirkpatrick once said that Democrats always "blame America first." She was wrong about the party as a whole, as proven yet again by the weight of the sentiment even here on DU, but the sentiment on the other side as been so virulent, so knee-jerk and so brain-dead, that surely we can begin to understand why, more often than not in recent decades, Republicans can WIN Presidential elections when foreign policy actually matters.

Oooh! If we evil white Westerners would stop overfishing Somail waters (at the same time as we dump nuclear waste in there) the pirates would just go back to being peaceable fishermen, or do an internship next year for the Sierra Club. Which is ridiculous.

But even if it were true, sure, maybe us evil white Westerners should stop dumping in all that waste and stop fishing out all those fish, and maybe over time Somalia would calm down -- but we should still put down pirates whenever and wherever we can.

Civilization is not a bad word. Sorry. :shrug:








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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. You're attacking symptoms, not causes.
Somalia is a country in chaos. Hunger is rampant, and there is no security.

They were invaded by Ethiopia, which was backed by America.

Until Somalia has a decent govt, and border security it won't be able to provide anything for it's people.

So until then, they'll do what they have to, to survive. As would you.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. and stopping pirates who hijack aid shipments to starving africans is NOT attacking symptoms
it is attacking a root cause: rampant criminal gangs posing as the government of Somalia.

:argh:
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. These are nothing more than your characterizations of someone else's
arguments, with an eye toward supporting your own point.

You need their material quoted within context in order to make it possible to assess the merit of your position.
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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. The material is up and down GD Page 1 right now.
Edited on Sun Apr-12-09 10:42 PM by smalll
Right fucking now, to borrow a phrase. Look, for the example easiest at hand, at response #1 to this thread, which basically tells us that Somalia is screwed up because Ethiopia invaded it, and we supported Ethiopia. Ergo, it's our fault. The mentality we're facing here is kind of an "all roads lead to Rome" thing -- all blame falls on us.

As I said, it is NOT the majority. It is a sizeable and vocal minority however.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Easy enough to do.
Due to the clan-based organization of Somalia and the lack of a central government, combined with Somalia's location at the Horn of Africa, conditions were ripe for the growth of piracy in the early 1990s. Since the collapse of the state, boats illegally fishing in Somali waters were a common sight. Pirates at first were interested in securing the waters before businessmen and militias became involved. Acts of piracy temporarily subsided following the rise of the Islamic Courts Union in 2006. However, pirate activity began to increase after Ethiopia invaded Somalia in December 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_pirate



The Nightmare in Somalia
By LEN WENGRAF
U.S.-BACKED Ethiopian troops withdrew from their remaining positions in Somalia at the end of January, bringing an end to a two-year occupation carried out in the guise of the "war on terror."
The Ethiopian Army invaded Somalia in December 2006, overthrowing the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC) government and installing the Transitional Federal Government (TFG). Two years later, approximately 10,000 people have lost their lives, and 1.1 million Somalis were turned into refugees, the victims of Ethiopian occupiers and an ongoing civil war.
From the beginning, the TFG, though backed by the U.S., was weak, maintaining control in only a small area of the capital of Mogadishu, and some regions of western Somalia. Several thousand African Union troops--including U.S.-trained Ugandan forces--ostensibly bolster the TFG, to little effect. The U.S. also intervened directly in Somalia with sporadic air strikes.
After the Ethiopian invasion, sections of the UIC and other opposition forces regrouped in the Alliance for the Re-Liberation of Somalia (ARS), with others coalescing around the fundamentalist al-Shabab group and other armed factions.
Ethiopian troops withdrew after a unity agreement between the TFG and the ARS, now the major opposition faction. Sheik Sharif Ahmed, the ARS leader and head of the UIC government in 2006, was elected president of the TFG on January 31.

http://www.counterpunch.org/wengraf02132009.html


Yes: nuclear waste. As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean. The coastal population began to sicken. At first they suffered strange rashes, nausea and malformed babies. Then, after the 2005 tsunami, hundreds of the dumped and leaking barrels washed up on shore. People began to suffer from radiation sickness, and more than 300 died.

Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy to Somalia, tells me: "Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead, and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury – you name it." Much of it can be traced back to European hospitals and factories, who seem to be passing it on to the Italian mafia to "dispose" of cheaply. When I asked Mr Ould-Abdallah what European governments were doing about it, he said with a sigh: "Nothing. There has been no clean-up, no compensation, and no prevention."

At the same time, other European ships have been looting Somalia's seas of their greatest resource: seafood. We have destroyed our own fish stocks by overexploitation – and now we have moved on to theirs. More than $300m-worth of tuna, shrimp, and lobster are being stolen every year by illegal trawlers. The local fishermen are now starving. Mohammed Hussein, a fisherman in the town of Marka 100km south of Mogadishu, told Reuters: "If nothing is done, there soon won't be much fish left in our coastal waters."

This is the context in which the "pirates" have emerged. Somalian fishermen took speedboats to try to dissuade the dumpers and trawlers, or at least levy a "tax" on them. They call themselves the Volunteer Coastguard of Somalia – and ordinary Somalis agree. The independent Somalian news site WardheerNews found 70 per cent "strongly supported the piracy as a form of national defence".

No, this doesn't make hostage-taking justifiable, and yes, some are clearly just gangsters – especially those who have held up World Food Programme supplies. But in a telephone interview, one of the pirate leaders, Sugule Ali: "We don't consider ourselves sea bandits. We consider sea bandits those who illegally fish and dump in our seas." William Scott would understand.




http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-you-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates-1225817.html
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. Piracy seems to be the best alternative for improving Somalia
Edited on Sun Apr-12-09 10:46 PM by wuushew
since their domestic economy is in a perpetually stalled death spiral, the foreign currency that is injected by piracy seems to be the best stimulus plan available.

Not all the ransom money will be spent on on guns. Some will make its way to the local tailor, store keeps, boot makers, mechanics, etc. Government and economic complexity are symbiotically intertwined. A richer country demands order and order allows further economic development.

I offer Mad Max 2 and Mad Max 3 as examples. Bartertown had more complex social structures than the wastes of the outlands ruled by Humungus.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Using movies as examples for real life
is a clear sign that your thinking is fucked.

Mad Max????
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. If you wanted an echo chamber you wouldn't be here
Edited on Sun Apr-12-09 11:09 PM by wuushew
I enjoy pissing people off. How long is it going to take for Somalia to evolve out of being a failed state? The decades are adding up. Are we going to do anything about it with two major wars and a financial crisis happening in the mean time?
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Oh brother.. what a load of nonsense.
Crime is NOT a legitimate basis for an economy.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. The best alternative is democracy, which the Somali warlords are very much against.
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corruptmewithpower Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. You know of somewhere in the seas that isn't overfished?
By the way, overfishing has nothing to do with race.
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Reterr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Very true.eom
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Quotas in civilized countries tend to mitigate the overfishing. Somalia has none, because they...
...refuse to form a government, particularly because the warlords would lose their power (a national army is more effective at upholding law than a bunch of decentralized power mongers).
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corruptmewithpower Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. The civilized quotas had better become way more effective.
The fisheries need a lot more mitigation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overfishing
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 04:58 AM
Response to Original message
15. Whatchu ;mean "America," kemosabe?
Were you referring to our socipathic shitstain elite, on whose behalf all of our imperial bullying is carried out? Or could it be that the rest of us poor saps who just live here have some claim to the designation?

Our own elites are not the only bullies in the world--they just command by far the most force. The rest of us are guilty mainly of not paying more attention, though we don't have much power to do anything about it. And we sure the hell don't benefit from the project of making the world safe for dollar a day labor.
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