Somali pirate incident = Gulf of Tonkin?

[arcadian]

Going after pirates land bases? Congressman being mortared at Somali airport. U.S. already has a failed policy history with Somalia.

Your thoughts? Save the pirate lover/you hate Obama crap and name calling. I'm looking for meaningful dialog.

[lamp_shade]

1. Meaningful dialogue? Good luck.

[no limit]

2. Right. The US government put up 3 pirates to take their life for america

logic...this thread has none.

[arcadian]

5. I didn't say that.

But, it wouldn't be a stretch to say we were looking for an excuse to revist Somalia.

[cali]

17. sure it would be. you present nothing but speculation

there's no indication that the U.S. is eager to revisit Somalia. To the contrary, there's been quite an aversion to it.

[Hannah Bell]

42. The us doesn't need to revisit. It's there.

[no limit]

18. That or we were looking to save an american citizen taken hostage by 4 pirates

like a good country is supposed to do.

[Renew Deal]

21. The OP suggested in another thread that they'd like to see the hostage killed and the pirates live.

:crazy:

[arcadian]

31. You are a liar.

[Renew Deal]

33. Sadly, no

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5441515&mesg_id=5441515

[arcadian]

36. Again, you are a liar.

And I'm calling you on it.

[Renew Deal]

37. Good for you

Doesn't change what you posted.

[arcadian]

41. Show me where I said I wanted the hostage to die and the pirates to live.

Not only are you a liar, but you are a fucking liar.

[Renew Deal]

45. That's what your thread implies.

Don't blame me for your inability to communicate.

[arcadian]

50. You are a liar.

How do you live with yourself? With all that dishonesty.

[Renew Deal]

57. I do quite well.

Though I have to wonder how you do. You wanted to see this hostage situation end in disaster to fulfill some bizarre world view. And it's not just that thread. It's this one too. Gulf of Tonkin? Yeah, OK.

[arcadian]

60. Liar

Must feel horrible having the stigma of being a liar hanging over you. Have you ever known the truth?

[Renew Deal]

62. You can call me what you like.

It's still better than what you are.

[arcadian]

73. My guess is that you can't live without the last word either.

Itchy? Scratchy?

[Renew Deal]

78. Projecting?

Hmmmm

[Starry Messenger]

51. That was satire.

[Hannah Bell]

46. First, you're in violation of DU rules by carrying disputes from one thread to another.

Second, link the quote or stfu.

[Renew Deal]

59. There's no dispute

And the quote is at the link. It's the suggestion of that thread.

[Hannah Bell]

68. yep, lying.

[Pirate Smile]

35. Because we don't have enough to do already. Obama wants an excuse to revisit Somalia? Oh FFS

:eyes:

[wyldwolf]

3. anything here remotely suggesting a Gulf of Tonken-like situation... or...

... are you looking for a conspiracy theory?

[arcadian]

9. Not Gulf of Tonkin like, in that the Gulf of Tonkin was completely staged.

But, Gulf of Tonkin, in that we might have been looking for an excuse to go in and "clean up" as so many here have so eloquently stated.

[wyldwolf]

11. I see. Well, always possible.

[CJCRANE]

4. I'm a conspiracy theorist

but not in this instance.

The real hidden story is about who's bankrolling the pirates.

[Democracyinkind]

19. There's a great thread on that one.

[lamp_shade]

77. .. (moved)

[Echo In Light]

79. Agreed. The whole "pirates" thing seems ...odd. What next...GOBLINS attack NY?

[thewiseguy]

6. Lets have a logical discussion on my preposterous suggestions!

[arcadian]

12. AFRICOM

Read up.

[Renew Deal]

7. Ultimately the world needs to get serious about the pirates.

It's a real problem.

[JoseGaspar]

72. A "real problem" to whom?

There have been pirates for thousands of years. There are fewer now. Getting rid of pirates counts as number 1,564,871 of the issues confronting the 6.5 billion people in the world.

What? You own a shipping company?

[jobycom]

8. French fries and rock music are a good combination, but I hate the shakes.

You need to flesh out your random thoughts here if you want a serious response. The Gulf of Tonkin was a hoax, are you saying that the pirates were a hoax, or that someone may unwisely escalate this into a war, or that Obama is trying to start a war, or what?

[OKNancy]

10. That's a stretch IMO

I doubt Obama will use this incident to gin up a war with Somalia.
Also, the pirates were free-lance criminals, not like the N. Vietnam Navy.
So the supposed incident in the gulf of Tonkin was state sponsored, this wasn't.

Not only that, but Obama isn't going to send troops to Somalia under any circumstances.

[WeDidIt]

13. TEH STOOPID!

it burns.

[arcadian]

15. "The next terrorist strike in the US will be homegrown and Fox Created."

Case. Rested.

[WeDidIt]

30. Have you seen what Fox is spewing?

Do you remember the early years of the Clinton administration and what the right wing spewed?

Do you recall the biggest terrorist attack in US history as of April 19, 1995, and remained the biggest terrorist attack until September 11, 2001?

You may want to think before YOU spew.

[arcadian]

48. Your sigline sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory.

[WeDidIt]

52. It's a prediction. Also, I notice your misdirection

Equating the pirate incident with teh Gulf of Tonkin episode is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

[arcadian]

61. I must have really fired you up

if you had to come back with a lame comeback like that after what you originally posted. :rofl:

[cali]

14. I doubt it.

First of all, it's a lousy parallel, unless you actually believe that the hijack attempt and hostage taking was all a set up. Secondly, it's unlikely that Obama will do anything rash about the piracy situation. That's pretty counter to his measured and largely cautious approach.

[arcadian]

23. They were both naval incursion.

Not a set up, but an opportunity to direct our Horn of Africa policy. It's always been an area of contention with the U.S. I only bring it up because of two new developments, the Congressman thing and the "going after the pirates lairs" thing. Both of which have developed today I believe.

[cali]

28. what? son now a cargo ship laden with relief is a naval incursion?

That makes no sense. And you don't seem to know what the heck you're talking about re Payne's visit to Somalia. What "going after the lair" thing are you talking about? Gov't spokesman? Congress Critter? Talking head? The source does matter.

[arcadian]

39. The Congressman being shelled at the airport I read on DU.

Going after the pirates lair, I also read on DU.

[cali]

44. non-responsive.

so what if you read it on DU? Do you know anything about Payne or why he was in Somalia?

Giant fail. I gave you what you asked for in your OP, but you seem incapable of actually having a discussion or providing anything but vague accusation. I don't bother with people who can't keep up.

[Democracyinkind]

16. Gulf of Tonkin: No one but us there. Somalia: There are actual "foes"

But I see your point. It smells rather manufactured to me. Not the hostage situation that is. But that this suddenly pops up on here now. For us "Bleeding hearts" this has been an issue since the collapse of Somalia (at least for people old enough unlike me), just like blowback-terrorism was an issue for "us" way before 9/11.

I use "us" because every time I write something on Somalia, I am being perceived as belonging to some mysterious sect, "bleeding hearts", "marxists", "anti americans". It kinda sticks with me.

Anyway. You got any good reason why we've started to become interested in the horn?
(The fact that Somalia was on the Neocon Hit list prior/post 9/11 was addressed in another thread..)

Curious to read any ideas on this.

[baldguy]

20. Somalia has been a basket case for WAY too long.

The US Navy was set up do deal with exactly this sort of situation, and EVERYONE KNEW this shit was happening. Instead Somalia was been ignored by two American administrations & one American dictatorship & Americans didn't care until it was an AMERICAN who was effected. THAT MAKES ME SICK! There is no Somali govt and the home countries of the Africans, European & Asians effected don't have either the ability or the will to police the sea lanes off Somalia - so it was just left to rot & just get worse and worse.

[arcadian]

27. So how about Western Sahara?

I'll bet you haven't even heard of that country. Guess what? Same lawlessness as Somalia. Oh wait, I for got, it doesn't sit on top of strategic shipping lanes.

[baldguy]

64. The ICC & IMB don't list the waters off Western Sahara as a piracy prone area.

So how is it the same?

Western Sahara is under the administration of Morocco. And though you might not like them being there, and they have been very successful stopping it - the Moroccans have been paroling those waters, and they've had help from European powers to do it, most notably from Britain & Spain.

[mainegreen]

69. Whaaaaa? No, that statement is not based on facts.

[LSdemocrat]

22. Are you implying we've been purposely underdefending US shipping to provoke war with pirates?

[DevonRex]

24. Bullshit on every single sentence in your OP. Just more flamebait BS.

[arcadian]

29. You should get your head checked.

Thread stalking leads to other serious issues.

[DevonRex]

47. Stalking? WTF? You posted a thread. I replied in it. And you replied back.

That's what a discussion board is FOR.

Oh, I get it. I don't agree with you, so I shouldn't respond. Well, you might want to make a list of the people you DON'T want to respond to you in your OP.

[seemslikeadream]

25. We're At War With Somalia?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1026383

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

26. Errrrr....

[scheming daemons]

32. You're not looking for meaningful dialogue...

...you're looking to validate your "America is always bad" opinion.

[arcadian]

34. Unfortunately for you, I have evolved beyond caveman grunts to express myself.

But I'm sure "America bad/good" works well for you, so you should run with that, which I'm sure you have.

[scheming daemons]

38. America is as good or bad as its leadership....

Our leadership has had a significant upgrade in the past few months.

[arcadian]

43. Yeah, the People have nothing to do with it.

Go ahead and wash your hands of any responsibility though. THAT after all, IS the American Way.

[scheming daemons]

54. The people decided who the leaders were going to be

This time, thankfully, they chose wisely.

[arcadian]

58. You know, voting carries with it a responsibility far beyond pulling a lever,

closing your eyes, crossing your fingers and hoping that all things turn out for the best.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snooper2]

40. meaningful dialog on a stupid hypothesis-

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[WeDidIt]

49. +1 n/t

[Junkdrawer]

53. Two articles you may want to read....

Untapped: The Scramble for Africa’s Oil
by DemocracyNow 5/17/2007

We begin today’s broadcast with a look at Africa and oil. It’s a little known fact: the United States today imports more oil from Africa than from Saudi Arabia. More than $50 billion in foreign investment in African oil is expected over the next three years.

What has this oil boom meant for Africa’s ordinary citizens? Our first guest spent a year reporting across the continent to find out. John Ghazvinian is a journalist who has written for publications including Newsweek, The Nation and Time Out New York. His new book is called “Untapped: The Scramble for Africa’s Oil.” The book compares the global competition for the continent’s oil resources to the nineteenth century scramble for colonization.

John Ghazvinian has just returned from Nigeria, where oil has been the driving force behind a longstanding bloodshed. Protesters in Ogoniland have just ended their week-long occupation of a major oil pipeline hub that forced Royal Dutch Shell to cut their daily production by nearly 40%. In recent weeks, villagers demanding compensation and regional control over Nigerian oil have kidnapped at least 13 foreign workers, occupied a Chevron oilfield, and bombed other international oil pipelines. Two major US companies, Chevron and Hercules Offshore, are evacuating all their non-essential workers from the oil-rich country.

....

AMY GOODMAN: The fact that the United States gets more oil from Africa—now, that’s a continent versus Saudi Arabia, which is a country. That’s not often recognized by our leaders, the continent versus country issue, but that’s still extremely significant. Give us the picture of Africa, where the oil is and where many are hoping it will be.

JOHN GHAZVINIAN: Yeah, actually, you know, the US, as you say, gets as much oil now from—as we do from Saudi Arabia, but actually we’re going to be getting about—you know, much more in the next few years. This is what’s significant is that by 2015, we’re going to be getting 25% of our imported oil from Africa. And, you know, this is why I wrote the book, really, because I feel like this is something we don’t pay a lot of attention to. When we think of oil, we tend to think of the Middle East or other parts or Venezuela or other parts of the world. But Africa is becoming increasingly important for our way of life and our energy needs, and I think it’s important for people to have some idea what some of the issues are in some of these countries.

....

http://www.democracynow.org/2007/5/17/untapped_the_scramble_for_africas_oil


THE OIL FACTOR IN SOMALIA
by Mark Fineman; Los Angeles Times, 1/18/93

MOGADISHU, Somalia-Far beneath the surface of the tragic drama of Somalia, four major U.S. oil companies are quietly sitting on a prospective fortune in exclusive concessions to explore and exploit tens of millions of acres of the Somali countryside.
That land, in the opinion of geologists and industry sources, could yield significant amounts of oil and natural gas if the U.S.-led military mission can restore peace to the impoverished East African nation.

According to documents obtained by The Times, nearly two-thirds of Somalia was allocated to the American oil giants Conoco, Amoco, Chevron and Phi]lips in the final years before Somalia's pro-U.S. President Siad Barre was overthrown and the nation plunged into chaos in January, 1991. Industry sources said the companies holding the rights to the most promising concessions are hoping that the Bush Administration's decision to send U.S. troops to safeguard aid shipments to Somalia will also help protect their multimillion-dollar investments there.

...

Although most oil experts outside Somalia laugh at the suggestion that the nation ever could rank among the world's major oil producers-and most maintain that the international aid mission is intended simply to feed Somalia's starving masses-no one doubts that there is oil in Somalia. The only question: How much?

"It's there. There's no doubt there's oil there," said Thomas E. O'Connor, the principal petroleum engineer for the World Bank, who headed an in-depth, three-year study of oil prospects in the Gulf of Aden off Somalia's northern coast.

"You don't know until you study a lot further just how much is there," O'Connor said. "But it has commercial potential. It's got high potential... once the Somalis get their act together."

....

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Project%20Censored/CensoredNews_1994.html

[CJCRANE]

55. The conspiracy, if there is one

lies in finding out why there was a sudden increase in pirate attacks in 2008/2009.

In 2007 there were 41 attacks which increased to 111 in 2008.

There could be a simple explanation but it seems that Bush's last year in office was a great time for pirates of all stripes.

[SidDithers]

67. Probably because they've been successful...

and that ransoms have been paid.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7742761.stm

Sid

[dionysus]

56. huffing glue is bad, hmmmkay?

:eyes:

[arcadian]

63. You should heed your sigline.

What is with people posting shit that is contrary to the bumper sticker catch phrases they post in their siglines. It seems prevalent on DU lately.

[dionysus]

70. i actually wrote my sig line. pardon me if i find the idea that this is a new gulf of tonkin rather

silly.

:hi:

[EstimatedProphet]

65. No.

You want meaningful dialogue? Pick a topic worth discussing. This is absurd. While we're at it, why not have a meaningful discussion on how what we're doing in Somalia is actually a plot by Reptilian aliens to take over the world?

[Junkdrawer]

66. Not Vietnam...think Bosnia...

In Vietnam, one questionable incident was enough to pretext US entry...

In Somalia, many, many incidents and cries of "Humanitarian Need" will be needed before a "reluctant" president OKs a "multinational" incursion.

[arcadian]

74. Humanitarian wars.

Warfare served with a smile and a burlap sack of oatmeal.

[Kaleva]

75. Simplisitic comparison

Not knocking you directly but I think of the OP as another attempt at bringing out the Vietnam War bogeyman.

[LanternWaste]

76. To what specific purpose...? n/t

To what specific purpose...? n/t

[lamp_shade]

80. Like I said in Post #1... Meaningful dialogue? Good luck. Pfffft.