Pirate apologism explained.

[BuyingThyme]

Everything changed on September 11, 2001. "Everybody" started talking about killing these people and torturing those. It suddenly became acceptable for American politicians to talk about "taking people out."

People who remember how things used to be have a hard time with the offhanded dismissal of human life. That's all.

[MrCoffee]

1. "the offhanded dismissal of human life"?

Is that really how the pirate thing is being viewed?

[BuyingThyme]

Yes, by many.

[MrCoffee]

22. It seems a little less offhanded when the other guy has a loaded AK-47 pointed at someone's head

There are consequences for that sort of behavior.

[EFerrari]

25. Why is it so difficult to understand that, even if these guys were scum

and armed to the teeth and molars, it's still creepy to anticipate with glee or to celebrate their deaths?

[MrCoffee]

37. That's very easy to understand

I'm with you, there's no call for gleeful anticipation or celebration before or after the fact. However, by the same token, there's no call for chastising the SEALS or the Navy for sucessfully completing a military mission. Which, in my opinion, this was.

[EFerrari]

45. I didn't see those posts. But I did see others in the vein I describe

and a few others' posts being interpreted that way -- just as any post expressing sadness over the death penalty is interpreted as somehow approving of the crime.

/oops

[Occam Bandage]

40. I agree that the glee in their deaths is a misplaced relic of tribalism.

The glee in the successful rescue of the captain, however, ought not be.

[notundecided]

86. I can understand the killing but to celebrate it?

[theboss]

89. Most of the celebrating is that the captain was free

But there is nothing wrong with being pleased when criminals receive justice.

[EFerrari]

140. True. But expressing elaborate fantasies about their pain, suffering and demise

is degrading to civil society.

[Occam Bandage]

143. I have not seen any such elaborate fantasies, but I did not

spend any time on this site yesterday, and will take you at your word that they existed. In that case, you are correct that such fantasies degrade us all.

[EFerrari]

146. I've been avoiding those threads for just that reason myself.

And, it's sort of silly for those posts to bother me because they happen every time there is an incident where some "bad guy" is hurt or killed. You'd think after 4+ years, I'd just find a way to embrace them. This is a big board.

[theboss]

151. I haven't seen anything like that, but it would be creepy

I did call the pirates a bunch of "rat fuckers" though.

[EFerrari]

153. I think the ACLU will leave you alone.

:)

[rollingrock]

157. Because to Americans, everything is a sport

we cheer every shot to the head as if it were a 3-pointer in a basketball game.

[EFerrari]

158. Sounds about right to me. ESPNation. n/t

[yardwork]

7. Only by pansies. Every real American knows that the only possible response

is to shout vulgar words while pumping their fists in the air, chugging pitchers of beer, and describing how they would have bitten the veins from the pirates' necks if only they'd chosen to be Navy SEALs themselves.

[Windy]

110. The thought that anyone here would have a problem with saving that captain is just unbelieveable!!!!

I guess he should have been sacrificed instead of rescueing him so that 4 pirates with no regard for human life would survive to strike again and possibly kill additional people on a different day! These guys had ample opportunity to resolve this standoff peacefully. They chose to act aggresively and paid for it. They could have put their weapons down and their hands up instead of pointing an automatic weapon at the head of that innocent merchant marine captain...

Stunning to me... just stunning.

[yardwork]

2. You mean "Fuck Yeah!" hasn't always been the height of political discussion?

[leftstreet]

3. Smoke Em Out! Dead or Alive!

YeeHah!

[cobalt1999]

4. Right. Before 9/11, the world sat around feeling sorry for criminals.

:eyes:

My memory is better than that!

[angstlessk]

5. this pirate crap has gotten beyond beyond...good pirate/bad pirate

I think too many of you grew up on Pirates of the Caribbean to be objective!

[Renew Deal]

61. It's gone overboard.

:evilgrin:

[angstlessk]

98. You are evil..do you have a hook for a hand by the way?

or a parrot on your shoulder? Or do you love Obama just cause you are an idiot?

[Beetwasher]

6. Imagine That! You Picking Up The Shit-Stirring Meme Of The Day

And running with it.

[BuyingThyme]

10. If simple reality is a shit-stirring meme to you,

what does that make you?

[Beetwasher]

58. Who's Reality?

Yours or the rest of the planet?

[dem629]

8. Let's just give the pirates what they want.

After all, they are oppressed so they should not be held accountable for their actions. This issue is REALLY about how bad Westerners are.

This message brought to you by the Pirate Apologist Branch of the Pseudo-Sociological Bullshit Society.

[leftstreet]

9. What did they want?

:shrug:

[Occam Bandage]

12. Money. nt

[leftstreet]

Why? n/t

[Occam Bandage]

Because, with no rule of law, it was there for the taking.

Greed is a human universal. If Bernie Madoff were born in Somalia, he would have been a pirate.

[leftstreet]

20. "If Bernie Madoff were born in Somalia, he would have been a pirate"

:thumbsup:

[dem629]

13. Well, what they usually ask for is about $2 million.

But the DU Pirate Apologists claim the pirates just want a functioning government, even though the pirates themselves do not mention this.

:rofl:

[rvablue]

14. $2 million or they were going to kill the Captain. n/t

[leftstreet]

16. Wow. Wall Street Banksters got Trillions from us without killing anyone

The Pirates need to go shirt/tie

[JVS]

17. Now call the OP an appeaser, you've nearly got the script perfected.

[dem629]

19. Here.

Mourn till you're content.

[EFerrari]

130. DU anti-intellectuals, untie!

[Occam Bandage]

11. Yes. Before Sept. 11, pirates were treated with appropriate love and tenderness. nt

[Ikonoklast]

15. When you are the one holding a rifle to someone's head,

hoping to get paid to stop doing so, shouldn't you expect that your life just may be forfeit if things go badly? Sometimes you reap what you sow.


And I am old enough to remember how 'things used to be'.

We killed people we disliked before 9/11, too.

Lots of them.

[BuyingThyme]

26. Human life wasn't so much of a joke before September 11.

And after September 11, "everybody" thought it was appropriate to accept whatever reasons the authorities gave for killing people. The reasons for killing people should always be questioned.

[Occam Bandage]

38. Tell that to the victims of the Iraqi sanctions. nt

[Ikonoklast]

51. Unlike this, I suppose.

We had 'good reasons' way back then, too.

Things haven't changed all that much.

[BuyingThyme]

52. No, not all that much.

[theboss]

27. America never bombed anyone prior to 9/11; Bush invented that

Or something.

I love DU. It makes me feel mainstream.

[B o d i]

18. I blame lolcats

[omega minimo]

21. and back to Bush War I and "collateral damage................."

[Occam Bandage]

32. The death of a civilian who happened to be near a target the Pentagon deemed to have military value

is not remotely comparable to the death of a pirate who had a loaded gun pointed at an unarmed civilian hostage's head. To compare the two is ghastly. The pirates are not sympathetic in any way.

I'm fine with people talking about the economic conditions in Somalia. It's terrible, and it will remain terrible so long as Somalia does not have a government. Recognizing Somaliland and Puntland as independent countries would be a great idea, and would be a strong first step towards solving this problem for good. But claiming that economic hardship ought excuse piracy is no better than claiming that a troubled family history is reason enough to let a rapist go free.

[omega minimo]

82. Good thing I didn't compare the two then!!!!!!11

Great post but you need to send it to whoever you're arguing with.

I was responding to the OP:

"Everything changed on September 11, 2001. "Everybody" started talking about killing these people and torturing those. It suddenly became acceptable for American politicians to talk about "taking people out."

"People who remember how things used to be have a hard time with the offhanded dismissal of human life. That's all."

That's all. Maybe the OP title set you off. However, I am not part of the topic or the argument. Your post looks like a strong argument. It's just not with what I said, reflecting that yes, times and people and perceptions have changed, as the OP said.


Edit: btw way, you underline the (simple) point with the words "civilian death" as the translation for Orwellian BushGulfWarSpeak "collateral damage."

[theboss]

23. You know...it's been okay to shoot at people who hold guns to your head for a long, long time

If this was 1996 or 1966 or 1866 or 1786 we would have killed those rat fuckers.

[BuyingThyme]

28. Did somebody say otherwise?

[yardwork]

29. And drank their blood and danced around bonfires with it smeared on our bodies!

[Occam Bandage]

35. It's not hyperbole to mention things that people actually did.

The pirates in question were literally holding a loaded AK-47 to the head of an unarmed civilian hostage.

[yardwork]

39. Who said they weren't?

[Occam Bandage]

44. Ah! I see. The blood-smearing was a hyperbolic reference to

the poster's preferred means of dealing with pirates and not to the pirates' actions. My mistake. I generally agree with your sentiment.

[yardwork]

76. Actually, it was a reference to anonymous posters preferred means of communicating with one another.

I fell like I fell into Free Republic today or a reunion of the 101st Fighting Keyboards.

[theboss]

77. Shooting pirate is not my preferred means

I'm not generally in favor of needlessly escalating violence. Life imprisonment is fine with me.

The minute you draw a gun, however, all bets are off.

[theboss]

I'm of the opinion that Obama has found a gold mine here

All he has to do is have one of these fuckers killed each month for the next two years and we will probably get ten more seats in the House.

It's a godsend to have an enemy who NO ONE supports and whose ability to strike back is limited.

[yardwork]

49. It certainly has caused paroxysms of joy among the bloodthirsty.

If we run out of enemies nobody likes, we can move on to enemies only liked by a few. Or maybe Obama has already begun that strategy in other areas...

[theboss]

63. You know, Enemies do exist

And you have to use the stick as well as the carrot to deal with them.

Would you be upset if we crippled piracy around the Horn of Africa in the next two years? Would that be a bad thing?

It's a wonderful opportunity for the Administration because:

1. It's a legit problem
2. Its a chance to build a coalition between the west and the forgotten African states
3. It's not a terribly dangerous problem at least as far as US interests are concerned, and
4. It's a chance for a supposedly wimpy Democrat to use American force in a definite way.

[yardwork]

78. Who disagrees?

[theboss]

what is with all the Innocent Questions on this thread?

Oh...let me say something that sounds like support for piracy...and then act shocked and offended when someone calls me on it.

[yardwork]

91. Where I have said anything in support of piracy? Please show.

[leftstreet]

50. ouch

:rofl:

[JVS]

54. We could make a reality TV show out of it!

[Occam Bandage]

55. You're probably correct. People have been strongly in favor of punishing piracy

for centuries. The deaths of Capt. Kidd and Blackbeard were widely celebrated. Given that there is a sound justification for fighting piracy--keeping sea lanes open for trade is, after all, the primary purpose of a navy--I wouldn't be surprised if America were to take this as an opportunity to relish in a "fight" we can win.

[theboss]

66. Not only that, but think of the cover it gives Obama politically -from a totally cynical perspective

The alleged Muslim, non-citizen military hater ordering the hunt, capture, imprisoning, and potential killing of African possibly Muslim pirates/terrorists.

It's like the Bay of Pigs but the complete opposite.

[JVS]

75. It's like a Sister Souljah moment tailor made for him.

The son of a Kenyan shows that he's All-American enough to not mind wasting some Africans.

USA USA USA!

[theboss]

81. This is the ugly side of American politics

But it's incredibly effective.

Clinton never minded using military force. And you have to think that a small part of that was in response to the "draft dodger/military hater" criticism.

[JVS]

111. Clinton did shy away from using military force in some ways, as did Reagan and Bush I

When I was a child in the 1980's, the idea of a large scale war was inconceivable. I knew that there might be nuclear war with the Soviets, but I also knew that nobody really wanted that to happen, so the possibility of a WWII type slugfest between large countries was gone. I also was aware of the fact that many people my parent's age had been involved in a war in Vietnam and that it had gone poorly for them. In fact, in the lead up to the first Gulf War, I remember hearing constantly of "Vietnam syndrome" and how politicians were afraid to get involved in a long term war of occupation even if it involved countries that were not very powerful. If someone had told me that we'd eventually be stuck in Iraq and Afghanistan like we are now, I'd have told them that they're crazy because our leaders wouldn't allow it to get to that point. We could do small stuff like Grenada and Panama, and there was no problem with bombing Libya and Serbia, or shooting cruise missiles, but the underlying principle always seemed to be "stay off the ground as much as possible" Only with Bush II did this idea get thrown out the window, much to our country's detriment.

[theboss]

136. I'm not sure if you are quoting Vietnam syndrome exactly correct

The issue in Vietnam was that a fast US victory over any kind of large, dug-in army in a defensive war was going to be exceedingly difficult. Occupation in Vietnam was never really the issue since we never controlled half the the country.

The Gulf War seemed to create the belief that we could win any ground war against any army in a short period of time.
Kosovo extended that belief in that we could win any ground war simply by air power.

In neither instance did we engage in a full-scale occupation of a hostile nation. That had not been done since the 40s.

Irag and Afghanistan once again proved that we could "win" a war in a hurry. Where Bush crossed the Rubicon was in occupation and nation-building against in the face of modern insurgencies. He turned us into Israel in Gaza or Great Britian in Northern Ireland, but on a much larger scale.

Even during the hot wars in the Cold War era, the idea was to get in and get out of the country as soon as possible and live only enough force to scare the Commies behind. I assume the plan for Vietnam was always to turn it over to a Pro-Western, quasi-military dictator in something resembling the Phillipines or South Korea. We just couldn't get to that point.

[JVS]

148. Vietnam was considered an occupation by the Hanoi government and the Viet Cong

Our operations up north went relatively well. It was the South where we were bogged down. Korea would have probably been similar if the South Korean government had been as unpopular there as the South Vietnamese government was in its own area.

[Occam Bandage]

95. Pretty much, yes. There is an extraordinarily cynical political benefit enveloped

in what would be a sound, reasonable policy decision to make. I am certain that the White House is not unaware of the not-for-polite-conversation benefits they would also gain by making the upstanding, wise decision to combat international piracy--a decision that I would hope they would make regardless of the crass political factor.

[theboss]

102. It's the best of both worlds

It's the kind of foreign policy opportunity that falls out of the sky - if you are lucky - once a decade.

[JoseGaspar]

84. Not enough

You also need blond American medical students, being rescued by Marines.

[theboss]

93. This is not Grenada since piracy is a real international problem and Grenada was a made for tv war

Grenada was cynical politics with no real long-term value.

This is cynical politics that may have a positive effect on real people's lives.

[JoseGaspar]

120. There is no distinction.

It is a press created event. Two weeks ago, if you had asked a random 1000 Americans where they put "Piracy" on the list of the top 100 problems in the world, it would have been number 100. Americans are kidnapped every day in Mexico and made to drain their ATMs. There are no SEALs and no "head shots". It is by sheer luck that the press got their story in the first place. There is no U.S. merchant marine. It was taken apart after WW2 with most surviving vessels transferring to flags of convenience. There are very few "U.S. crews". The ones that exist are vulnerable to "pirates" because the new ships are highly automated and have very small crews for their size. They have no security systems because the shipping companies are dirtbags. They are not armed because of some insurance bullshit. They don't detour out of inshore "piracy zones" because they are trying to reduce costs (how far out can a dingy with an outboard go?).

It is all bullshit. A tiny story made large by political advantage and a corrupt press, with only the RAH RAH Greek chorus needed to transform it into comedy.

[theboss]

142. My guess is that Obama is going to get involved in Mexico in a very big way in the next 6 to 12 mos.

Along the border towns in Texas, everyone has basically reached their tolerance level with the war zones a mile away. And the Mexican government is teetering on collapse.

So...your mileage may vary on the necessity of US action, but it is coming.

[No More Bushbots]

154. That was the Raygun Doctrine

In regards to Grenada.
But then he ran like a pussy from Lebanon.

[MineralMan]

24. For the Apologists, consider this scenario:

You have gone to the bank to deposit your paycheck. Suddenly bank robbers come into the bank and tell everyone to lie on the floor. You comply. Then, the police come roaring up, sirens blaring. One of the bank robbers comes over, demands that you stand up, then puts a 9mm pistol to your head.

You are now a hostage. Over time, the police have a negotiator, trying to convince the bank robbers to give up and release the hostages. The robbers respond by telling the cops to go away within five minutes or they'll kill a hostage.

Five minutes pass, and the police have not gone away. A shot rings out in the bank, and a customer taken hostage slumps to the floor. Your face is splattered by blood and other matter. The robbers make their demand again, but five minutes later, the cops are still outside the bank.

The robber holding you hostage pushes you toward the door, where you can be seen. You're the next to die, it seems. Suddenly, you hear shots and all three bank robbers collapse to the floor, their heads bleeding from gunshot wounds.

Are you grateful to the police or angry at them?

[yardwork]

33. And if I had nothing whatsoever to do with it but was watching from a distance

I'd start thread after foul-mouthed thread celebrating the bloodshed while shoving other posters' faces in it, strip myself naked and jump around a bonfire covered by my enemies' blood (or maybe just ketchup), while shouting "losers!!!!" at anyone who asked me to tone it down.

[MineralMan]

47. Would you, indeed? I haven't seen anyone doing any such

thing. Have you? If so, please post links so I can see them, too.

So far, the only histrionics I'm seeing are in your post.

[yardwork]

71. This one, primarily:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5441153&mesg_id=5441153

Oh, and this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5446578

And the dozens more peppered with words like mofo, fuck, etc.

[JoseGaspar]

127. Improve on that story some more.

Then the bank robbers produce a nuclear device. The put it in the bank vault which only one of them knows the combination to. Do the police water-board the pirate or do they let your perfect small town explode into a nuclear mushroom cloud?

Wait... that's a rerun.

[Flying Dream Blues]

30. Are you one of these people who bemoan the lost humanity of sympathy for armed kidnappers?

From your post, it's not clear.

[BuyingThyme]

34. No. I bemoan the lost humanity of the people who celebrate their deaths.

(That is, if I'm using the word bemoan properly.)

[No More Bushbots]

155. I'm bemoaning about Marilyn Chambers death

While I type this with one hand.

[EFerrari]

36. Maybe you should give us a list of people whose deaths we can cheer.

It would save so much trouble and misunderstanding!

[theboss]

48. Nazis, child rapists, serial killers, dictators, and wait staff at Pizzeria Unos in Reston, VA

They know why.

[EFerrari]

123. LOL

[CreekDog]

31. when the pirates are pointing guns at a guy's head

i don't think it's dismissal of their lives to want them dead.

[cali]

41. that's a good partial explanation

for some people here it's more about finding a way to point out how endlessly evil Amurikkka is and how western culture is the fount of all that's bad always.

Furthermore, not everybody started talking with gusto about killing and torturing after 9/11.

[Joe Fields]

42. I do not agree with you.

I remember how it used to be, and I say no quarter to pirates. I don't care what their reasons are for becoming terrorists of the high seas, but death to all that try it.

[BuyingThyme]

46. Pirates are not terrorists.

And I don't appreciate your system of justice.

[theboss]

53. Piracy has always been met with the most severe of punishments in a society

It's one of the few global crimes that nearly all nations can agree on both eradicating and how to punish.

It's an automatic life imprisonment in the US. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

[BuyingThyme]

56. Shooting pirates in a hostage situation has nothing to do with punishment.

[Occam Bandage]

60. No, that's simply an expected end to a hostage situation in which

the hostage's life is endangered.

[BuyingThyme]

65. That's correct.

[theboss]

73. Really? That's what we are upset about?

They had a fucking gun to a dude's head.

If you threaten deadly force, deadly force in response is more than appropriate.

How is that even an argument?

[slackmaster]

147. That is also correct

Shooting hostage-takers is all about securing the release of the hostage.

[MineralMan]

59. Oh, yes, they are, indeed, terrorists.

Imagine their hostages, if you are able.

[Occam Bandage]

64. Not everyone who causes terror is a terrorist.

Terrorism is the attempt to change political policies by terrorizing a populace. Pirates are only in it for the cash.

[MineralMan]

68. Hmm...so you suppose that the Somali pirates are in it

just for themselves, do you. In reality, they are funding a civil war. Thus, they are attempting to change political policies by engaging in terrorism. Do, please, learn a bit about what is happening in Somalia.

[Occam Bandage]

83. Suppose that some of them are giving some of their proceeds towards arming their clans.

This is not surprising to me, though I haven't heard of it in particular. That is still not terrorism. Rather, those are the two unrelated acts of piracy and of arms dealing. The "terror" aspect of it is aimed only at procuring cash; it is not directly aimed at changing anyone's policies. By your logic, the United States Navy engaged in terrorism during the Civil War when it intercepted Confederate shipping and used the proceeds to fund the construction of monitors.

[Joe Fields]

70. That is pure B.S.

I suggest that you look up the textbook definition.

[Occam Bandage]

90. Sure.

"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments."

Nope. Not terrorism. Their goal was to coerce the shipping company to pay them cash. That's simply extortion.

[Joe Fields]

97. I see you play fast and loose with the truth.

You also like to paraphrase dictionary definitions. The definition uses the word "especially" when talking about political purposes..

Here is the exact definition for other people here, since you choose to bastardize it.

ter⋅ror⋅ism
   /ˈtɛrəˌrɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA
–noun
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

[Occam Bandage]

104. Nope. That was a full copy-paste from the "define" link on Google, which points to

the American Heritage Dictionary, under the category (Military, Law, Politics). You can hardly insult someone for going to a different dictionary than you did.

Your definition is a more colloquial one, and one that is not particularly useful. By your definition, a child who says "if you don't let me take a ride on your bicycle, I won't invite you to my birthday party" is as much a terrorist as Osama bin Laden is.

[Joe Fields]

124. this may help you out in your confusion...

Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of terror.

terror
3 entries found.

1. terror
2. night terror
3. reign of terror


Main Entry:
ter·ror Listen to the pronunciation of terror
Pronunciation:
\ˈter-ər, ˈte-rər\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French terrour, from Latin terror, from terrēre to frighten; akin to Greek trein to be afraid, flee, tremein to tremble — more at tremble
Date:
14th century

1: a state of intense fear2 a: one that inspires fear : scourge b: a frightening aspect <the terrors of invasion> c: a cause of anxiety : worry d: an appalling person or thing ; especially : brat

Now here is the Merriam-Webster definition of terrorism


terrorism
2 entries found.

1. terrorism
2. narco–terrorism


Main Entry:
ter·ror·ism Listen to the pronunciation of terrorism
Pronunciation:
\ˈter-ər-ˌi-zəm\
Function:
noun
Date:
1795

: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
— ter·ror·ist Listen to the pronunciation of terrorist \-ər-ist\ adjective or noun
— ter·ror·is·tic Listen to the pronunciation of terroristic \ˌter-ər-ˈis-tik\ adjective

My first example, upthread uses the word "especially," which means including governments, but not exclusively, which means that other ways of committing terror are included.

I hope I have cleared your confusion up.

[Occam Bandage]

128. I like how your response to my thread is just another dictionary paste.

Never mind that I already provided my own dictionary paste, and gave an example of why your dictionary paste is inadequate when talking politics.

[Joe Fields]

144. It is simply ludicrous for you to say that pirates don't terrorize people.

That is a very narrow world viewpoint. I am sure of what the pirate's hostages would say.

[BuyingThyme]

No, they are not terrorists.

Contrary to popular belief, being Muslim does not make a criminal a terrorist.

[MineralMan]

OK. That's moronic.

These pirates are not in it for their own gain. They are funding a civil war in their own country. Thus, their acts have a political motivation. They get their money by terrorizing innocent ship crews, knowing that some will pay rather than see their countrymen or employees killed.

If you do not understand the underpinnings of this piracy, I suggest that you study the situation in Somalia and Nigeria more closely.

These pirates are terrorists, and cold-blooded ones at that.

[BuyingThyme]

92. Terrorism is the illegal use of violence to influence a people or government.

Memorize it. It will come up again.

[Joe Fields]

150. I suggest you check response #124.

[BuyingThyme]

160. Oh, are we were talking about dreams and roller coasters?

My bad.

[Joe Fields]

62. ROFLMAO

WOW....


Just wow.......

[BuyingThyme]

67. Are you laughing because you don't know what terrorism is?

Or because you believe in justice by fire?

[Joe Fields]

74. I'm laughing because of your incredulous answer.

[BuyingThyme]

80. It's incredulous to be against the summary execution of suspected pirates?

[MrCoffee]

99. When you're holding a loaded weapon to a hostage's head, you're no longer suspected.

You're in the act.

You sound like we were rounding up random Somalis off the streets of Mogadishu and executing them on suspicion of piracy.

[BuyingThyme]

101. All I can say is that it would be helpful for you to read the posts

before responding to them.

[dem629]

72. Oh, no! Someone who doesn't appreciate someone else's idea.

What are we going to do?

[slackmaster]

145. You are correct, pirates are not terrorists

They are violent criminals.

[malaise]

43. That's why I refer to the Rah Rah

as the residue of eight years of Bushco.

[Occam Bandage]

69. Captain Kidd's body was hung in a cage for twenty years.

People have been quite pleased to go rah-rah over the death of pirates for as long as there has been piracy.

[malaise]

88. Since British pirates and merchant ships are responsible

for capturing my ancestors, I have a different perspective.

[blindpig]

115. Yes, and public hangings were entertainment.

so I guess that's OK too.

[Occam Bandage]

121. Certainly not. But it's wrong to say that nobody would be cheering this if not for Bush.

[Burma Jones]

57. Well, most nations have been built on the offhanded dismissal of human life

Criminals holding a gun to the head of a man that was hauling humanitarian aid have always been taken out one way or another.....

[NeedleCast]

79. So Prior to 9/11 you think people would have shown more sympathy for the pirates?

I don't.

[BuyingThyme]

87. I think more people would have questioned the circumstances

under which our government decided to kill people. And more people would have recognized the loss of human life as a loss of something of value.

[theboss]

100. Yea...that's ridiculous

Snipers who kill bad guys holding guns to people heads always get praise. Reagan would have the dude next to him at the podium during the State of the Union.

[BuyingThyme]

106. Are you cutting and posting random words?

[NeedleCast]

108. I see few if any people on DU celebrating the death of the pirates

Although I have little problem with it. Live by the sword, die by the sword, and all that. If you chose to make piracy your profession, your chance of catching a bullet goes up exponentially. I understand there are underlying circumstances behind it and that's pretty much the case for anyone who turns to a life of crime, but that doesn't mean I have much sympathy for the criminal, pre or post 9/11. Our government has made it pretty clear throughout it's history the messing with American citizens abroad is a fairly bad idea and significantly increases your chance of violent death.

[BuyingThyme]

112. Like when Saddam Hussein stockpiled all those WMD?

[Occam Bandage]

113. I am curious as to how the two are linked.

[BuyingThyme]

116. Our government killed people and people cheered.

But, as it turns out, a little more intelligent conversation and debate would have been in order.

[Occam Bandage]

133. I do not believe that "more conversation and debate" was in order here.

The civilian death toll from this action was 0. The civilian injury count was, again, 0. And it is altogether possible--and if reports are remotely true, probable--that the civilian death toll would have been 1 had the SEALs not acted when they did. Given that early attempts at negotiation failed (in that the pirates were unwavering in their demand for cash), I'm not sure on what basis you believe that additional negotiation would have allowed this situation to end in anything but either blood or a payoff.

[BuyingThyme]

161. I'll take conversation and debate over celebration of death.

I think that's all anybody really objected to; a lack of civil intercourse.

[Liberal Veteran]

85. An effort was made toward a peaceful resolution.

Sometimes, that's all you can do.

[EFerrari]

132. Agreed. I myself didn't think our guy had a prayer.

But, afaik, this flap isn't about Navy Seals but about people sitting in the safety of their homes calling for blood.

Maybe some of us have just dealt with too much of the real stuff for that to go down very easily.

[snooper2]

94. Some humans don't deserve to live...

people who rape babies- kill them...

30 people who stand in a circle and throw stones at a woman who's buried up to her neck- mame them all ( one arm for the first time )

people who kill whales- send pirates to attack :evilgrin:

[kwassa]

96. It is all Johnny Depp's fault! Arg! Arg!

[BuyingThyme]

105. You may have a point.

It's all a movie. We can sit on our asses and cheer on one side as they kill the other.

[walldude]

103. I love how your comments have been turned into

"you are apologizing for the pirates" or that classic "In my opinion you were chastising the Navy seals". :eyes:

I wrote this comparison yesterday and it still fits:

Not long ago GWB had a woman put to death in Texas. She was a convicted murderer, tried by a jury of her peers and sentenced to death. At the end when she pleaded for her life, Bush made jokes, snide remarks and celebrated her death. Funny how 100% of DU was up in arms at the callousness of Bush's comments, at the blatant inhumanity of his celebration of the death of this convicted murderer. Today I guess DU is a different place. Death and having to kill is cause for celebration. I'm surprised tailgate parties didn't pop up.

[BuyingThyme]

107. Yes, it's a different place.

[Occam Bandage]

109. Nobody has said that BT is apologizing for pirates. Not one person.

Similarly, nobody has said that BT is chastising the SEALs. It is true that someone mentioned chastising the SEALs, but not in a context of rebuking BT directly.

[walldude]

114. Post 37

and I quote:

"I'm with you, there's no call for gleeful anticipation or celebration before or after the fact. However, by the same token, there's no call for chastising the SEALS or the Navy for sucessfully completing a military mission. Which, in my opinion, this was."

[MrCoffee]

118. I wasn't referring to the OP

I was referring to other posts I've seen today.

[walldude]

126. That's not very clear in your post....

actually it's not clear at all.

[MrCoffee]

129. I'm sorry it was over your head.

[walldude]

139. Oh well then you win. Continue with your celebration.

:eyes:

[Occam Bandage]

119. I don't see a reference to the OP there. nt

[yardwork]

122. This thread is full of accusations that some are soft on pirates.

Or perhaps I misunderstood the meaning of this post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5447707&mesg_id=5448054

[Occam Bandage]

125. As well as accusations that some take pleasure in blood. nt

[yardwork]

159. Yes, that one would be my accusation. Or rather, observation.

[yardwork]

117. Tailgate parties have popped up. Complete with drunken boorish behavior.

The SEALs who actually saved the captain's life aren't the ones jumping around celebrating. It's the 101st Fighting Keyboards here on DU - most of whom wouldn't know how to use a high-powered rifle if one jumped into their hands - who have littered the place with "Fuck Yeah!" posts.

[EFerrari]

134. Exactly.

:thumbsup:

[Bucky]

131. I thought this thread was about the Pittsburgh Pirates

but it's not

[JVS]

135. Who would defend them?

[EFerrari]

137. Are they playing today?

[theboss]

152. I stopped being a Pittsburgh Pirate apologist in 2000

They can burn in hell too.

[dionysus]

138. yeah, those poor pirates holding people at gunpoint for ransom and sometiems killing them....

:eyes:

[slackmaster]

141. Americans have been talking about taking out our enemies since 1776 or earlier

Our country was founded in violent revolution, and we've had to fight many times to maintain it.

There is NOTHING WRONG with using deadly force to protect life and limb. Embrace the culture.

[Jersey Devil]

149. Pirates are armed robbers. They ain't exactly Jean Valjeans

Christ, were they stealing loaves of bread for starving children?

[No More Bushbots]

156. Maybe they just needed a hug?

They were caught in the act and they received justice after attempts at negotiations proved to be useless.
The same people that are complaining that they shouldn't have been killed to save the life of an innocent, would be the same people that would be bitching about the Reich Wingers kicking Obama's ass for not doing anything.
As far as I'm concerned, this is the best of both worlds. Obama proved that America will act in a measured response to a threat to the world, and just gave the high hard one to the Republicans here at home.