yes, I feel sorry for the pirates.

[cali]

and it's fine if you want to poke fun at me or pillory me for that sentiment. They were kids. Odds are likely that they were just hired help in a place where gainful employment is pretty much nonexistent. No, I'm not saying that the military shouldn't have killed them to free Captain Phillips, it's just that it's a sorry thing. And the context is important. I still wish they'd just surrendered.

[slackmaster]

1. They are a pathetic bunch of people who live in a basket case of a country

I feel sorry for them too, but their situation does not excuse their crimes.

[killbotfactory]

5. Who is excusing anything?

Not once have I read from the so-called "apologists" that the Somalian pirates are justified in holding hostages for ransom.

I have read various explanations about what has led to this problem, and what contributes to it, but that's not the same as excusing it.

[hlthe2b]

16. Yes, they are pathetic. But, given the chance of birth, we could be

likewise struggling to live in that "basket case of a country." One can be empathetic to the people at large, their situation, and even these misbegotten dead pirates and their families without EXCUSING them..

[Prometheus Bound]

70. Hey, you know what? I googled "US basketcase" and then "Somalia basketcase"

"Somalia basketcase" - 18,900 hits
"US basketcase" - 973,000 hits

"Somalia pathetic" - 103,000 hits
"US pathetic" - 12,500,000 hits

Just for the record.

[whopis01]

95. So even if you scale for population

it appears as if the US is 66% more basket-casier per capita than Somalia.

According to googlific* evidence, the US has .00316719272 basket cases per capita whereas Somalia has only 0.00191102123 basket cases per capita.

I'll leave determining which is more pathetic as an exercise for the reader.


*as opposed to scientific

[NoSheep]

107. Would you like to go to dinner this Friday?

I'm serious! Your approach is right-on!

[RalphieD]

126. Misunderstood?

Maybe Somalia isn't as bad as what Faux News would have us
believe.

[Juche]

2. I'd like it if Somalia had decent jobs for them

If there were good jobs for them and enough law enforcement infrastructure to prevent them from being able or willing to becoming pirates. But there wasn't.

[ThomCat]

48. If 1st world nations weren't using their waters as dumping grounds

for toxic waste, and raiding their fishing grounds and depleting them of stock, the people of Somolia wouldn't have felt the need to start pirating in their own waters. :(

For anyone paying attention to the larger picture, this is one more major example of the consequences of major nations pillaging small defenseless nations. They can't even form a proper navy to police their waters, so they have pirates instead.

Europe is responsible for this.

[MrMickeysMom]

71. :-^)

Yep, ThomCat... If only others weren't starving them to the point of ???

[Joe Chi Minh]

133. Yes, Europe, apparently.

[sarcasmo]

58. I would like it if all of us laid off or out of work here in Michigan had a job.

[Juche]

60. I'd like that too

Its win-win. If I could get it to rain Hawaiian Punch instead of water I'd be set for life.

[NoSheep]

108. This thread is filled with people I like! That NEVER happens!

:rofl:

[JeanGrey]

112. I wish America had decent jobs for us. But it is not an excuse

to rob, kidnap and all the rest.

[Hannah Bell]

119. how about if the unemployment rate was 47%, most people lived on $2/day,

per capita income was $600/year, & there'd been war in the US for the last 50 years?

not only that, but a bunch of rich foreigners were giving lots of money to one gang of thugs to fight another gang of thugs that was getting money from another bunch of rich foreigners.

not only that, but the constant conflicts meant there were hundreds of thousands of refugees all over the country, & sometimes crops didn't get planted, or harvested, so sometimes people starved.

what would you think *then*?

[ForrestGump]

130. I'd be thinking

"at least it's not raining."







"....and, hey, I've still got my health..."

[MrPerson]

3. Pitching. That's their problem.

[Truth2Tell]

20. You mean you don't count Paul Maholm?

:P

[TheCowsCameHome]

4. I'd guess if they surrendered they'd soon be dead meat when they arrived home.

I'll bet the warlords don't take kindly to their boys waving the white flag.

[cali]

9. they wouldn't have arrived home.

they'd have been tried either in Kenya or in the U.S.

[TheCowsCameHome]

13. Tried or not, when they eventually went home it'd be all over.

[cali]

19. they would never have been returned to Somalia. The one who is alive

will not be sent back.

[swt_nd_smpl]

6. I too share the same feeling that you do for the pirates

I wish it would have been resolve without the use of violence, but I am glad that Captain Phillips is free.

[liberalmuse]

7. It's a tragedy.

My elation is based on two things:
1. Capt. Phillips is safe
2. President Obama proved himself to be competent in a messy situation like this. I think many people are probably happy because even though they consider President Obama capable, we've been through this type of situation before with Carter and Clinton, and they did not turn out very well, to say the least.

On the other hand, I'm sad that kids are resorting to piracy, much the same as I'm sad that kids resort to gangs here in the US. Both are done for similar reasons. Poverty, and the chance not to only make money, but a ridiculous amount of money, while winning some sort of prestige amongst your peers. These were teens, and teens are not only irrational at times, but are still too young to understand the FULL consequences of their actions.

That being said, the President gave the order he had to, and the military acted on their best judgment when they saw negotiations were deteriorating and the hostage had a weapon pointed at him.

I don't think anyone should fault those who are saddened at the way this turned out, or those who are marveling at the competency of our Navy SEALS (that doesn't necessarily mean they are happy about human beings being killed). However, I have seen a few posts on one end of the spectrum where people seem to be trying to justify the piracy, and on the other end where people are going a bit overboard with cheering the killing.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

32. The next captain may not be so lucky, that's the part that has

me worried. There will be a next.

[G_j]

8. yes it is a sorry thing

& there is a lot of sorrow in that part of the world.

[NutmegYankee]

10. I have mixed emotions, but not pity for them.

I am overjoyed that we got our hostage back, and that we fought back against piracy, but was also sad that these young men chose to go out violently versus just surrendering. That said, I do not support them, just had hoped we'd be able to take them prisoner and possibly rehabilitate them.

[walkaway]

11. As usual, the young men or women who get used by greedy

bosses, heads of state or who ever pulls the strings get their heads blown off.

Of course it had to be done but does anyone actually believe these kids were ever going to see the ransom?

[MADem]

23. Kids?

Those aren't kids.

[tekisui]

39. 17 to 19 years old, the three were.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5449647&mesg_id=5449647

[MADem]

44. And married, and almost halfway through their lives, per the actuarial tables

for their end of the world.

They aren't Fonzi and Ritchie.

[tekisui]

46. No, I am not saying they are.

I would still call them 'kids'. But, they were fully capable of saving their lives by releasing the Captain to the FBI/Navy.

[riderinthestorm]

77. Plenty of "kids" make grown up decisions that are moral and just.

These "kids" did not.

My grandfather joined up when he was 16 to fight WWI. Lied about his age. Was a British spy by the time he was 18.

"Teens" is an American misnomer. Many, many "teens" are already battle ready by the time they are 16/17 yrs old.

[Threedifferentones]

61. Right

In America, 17 year olds get to worry about being cool, like on TV. In Somalia, they chose between starving, slightly not starving after making our clothes for 100 hours a week, or being violent thugs.

Whether or not that "excuses" any given action, I do not know. But it is a fact, and America pretty much made it that way intentionally. And by America, I mean our bastard ass rich leaders, and the suckers they lie to.

[MADem]

72. Here, read. You might be a bit surprised by what you learn.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7650415.stm

[Threedifferentones]

82. Exactly

Read closer, and my point is perfectly expressed:

"Piracy in many ways is socially acceptable. They have become fashionable.

Most of them are aged between 20 and 35 years - in it for the money.

And the rewards they receive are rich in a country where almost half the population need food aid after 17 years of non-stop conflict."

So, like I said, in America, we get to worry about being cool, there, they get to worry about fighting and eating. The fact that the best and most violent become somewhat "rich," though of course not in comparison to our leaders, does not change the fact that WE, the western world, largely created this awful situation which is now washing over our ships.

If piracy is fashionable there, many people must have no sympathy for its victims. Hmmm, now I wonder why that might be....

[MADem]

83. And being FASHIONABLE (another word for cool) is easy when you have the money and the power

And wealth is relative.

In the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

These thugs are the one-eyed men in their neighborhoods.

They aren't poor, pathetic children. They are seasoned theives, hijackers and murderers.

[Threedifferentones]

103. Why do you keep missing my point

You keep talking about the individuals in question. Yes, they are horrible.

As a whole, though, America inflicts farm more harm, and exploits far more people, than Somalia. Our prosperity is based directly off their misery. Hence, in the grand scheme of things, the pirates are basically insignificant, while America, with our awesome monopoly on violence, has set up a world economy with us on top. If we compare nations, it is clear America and other rich nations are the "pirates," while Somalia is a victim.

What is really sad, and the main reason, I think, why people keep pressing the sorry state of Somalia, is that little incidents like these are just the publicity our government needs to justify the massive army and "intelligence" agencies which made the "third world" so awful in the first place.

Think about the sick cycle of it. Wealthy, powerful countries subjugate places like Somalia to our will. In the process, we become rich, and we ensure they remain miserably poor. Poverty leads to desperation, and desperation breeds anger and violence. Then, when that violence spills back over to us, we say "oh see we really do need this huge army to deal with the situation we created."

Forgive me if this "victory" does not make me cheer for joy, okay?

[MADem]

105. America is "bad" so the Somalis have a "right" to hijack vessels.

That's a bullshit argument.

If you're going to follow along, the Somalis aren't even saying that. They're blaming European fishermen and the Italian mafia.

It's not our fault that Somalia is run by thugs. In fact, if you'd check your current events, you'd see that we weren't unhelpful to them in firing up their still-new transitional government. We're not the "bad guys" here--and damned nice, considering our prior interactions with them and the blood we left in their sand--how dare we try to peacekeep, I guess.

They have a PM and a President and a Justice Minister now.

And they also have a death penalty for piracy, so those Yo Ho Ho guys you pity like sad puppies will probably be motivated to start doing some murdering ashore, if those gubmint guys ever achieve sufficient critical mass to project power into the countryside.

I don't care how you feel about this "victory." Frankly, I don't see why you need to call it a "victory." With or without the asinine quotes. It was a RESCUE of a US citizen held by murderous, thieving thugs at gunpoint. I used up all my sympathy on him.

I tire of people who wring their hands and fuss tearfully when all we're fucking doing is defending our own interests and most importantly, our CITIZENS. That's something I admire about the US--we don't routinely tolerate that crap. That merchant Captain, piloting a ship full of AID destined FOR Somalia to Mombasa, wished no harm to Somalia and was part of the goddamned solution you keep crying about. Those bastards had to go WAY out to sea to intercept his vessel--it wasn't a short swim from shore. They went gunning for the ALABAMA, and I have no pity for them. And if you want to waste your time crying over crooks, be my guest. I'll regard you as a fool for so doing, though.

[Threedifferentones]

110. I just don't understand

You do not refute that America bears a fair share of burden for making Somalia the way it is. You do not refute that lawless places where guns are plentiful but resources, having been shipped off to people who can afford them, are scare makes people desperate. You do not dispute that desperation causes violence, and that lawlessness gives it opportunity, which is why Somalia has pirates.

You just do not care. And you think I am a fool for bringing these points up. Those facts are definitely related.

You keep insisting I am trying to excuse these pirates. I am just putting them in perspective. You need to read more about, or think harder.

I recommend starting here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia#Economy

There you will learn that bananas are the countries principle export, despite the fact that 50% of the people cannot get enough to eat. A country exporting food, when it could not feed its people if it wanted to. This is a sad pattern you can find all over the "third world."

If this is not because the country was violently taken over by Europeans, who inserted treacherous, violent "native" people into the higher ranks of colonial society, then why is it? If it is not because powerful foreign governments have fought covert wars to see who will benefit from the nation's resources, conveniently ensuring that the population remains desperate and disposable, then why is it?

If this country has no government, and their ports are full of people with guns, how do you suppose those crops are grown and shipped? The same way many of our clothes are made, ultimately. At the point of a gun. And you want to condemn someone who chooses piracy over that life from the comfort of a country which made life that way? With their food on our tables?

I do not care what excuses pirates make for themselves. They are inadequate. No doubt they turn their firepower on their countrymen when they feel the need. However, I may damn well have grown into a thug growing up there. I love how people like you never mention just what you would do if you had to eat but could not get a job that did not require 100 hours a week and pay enough to eat. In places like Somalia, it has been said that at times kids are cheaper than food. I guess you'd lay down and die righteously like Jesus, huh. Me, I'd kill or be killed, and once I'd gotten used to that, I'd see how far I could go. Or maybe I'd be a coward and work myself to death for some asshole extracting some resource for rich countries. Or maybe I would really turn out to be a saint. Really, I do not pretend to know. You do.

Again, knowing all this, why would you assert that the crew of one ship deserves more concern than the global economy? Why would you imply, with your self-righteousness, that Somalian pirates come close to approaching America's international pillaging? Why would I care if someone who thinks 19 is greater than many millions thinks I am a fool?

[MADem]

144. I don't "refute" it but I don't AGREE to it, either.

Look--bottom line. Murder, kidnapping and theivery on the high seas are CRIMES.


Why is that so hard for YOU to get that through your head?

Why do you throw a "binary" argument at me, and expect an answer? Waaah--why would you assert the crew of one ship deserves more concern than the global economy? Why would you think that remark makes any goddamn SENSE?

Can't you walk and chew gum at the same time? Can't you hold more than one concern in your brain? Too tough for you?

Gee, why don't you "lay down righteously like Jesus, huh?" I'm just quoting you here, mind you.

How about we send some poor folk over to rob your house? Steal your car? Maybe, oh, kill a few of your family members.... just because (sob, boo hoo) they're POOR? How about they kidnap you, get your PIN number by pistol whipping you a bit, and clean out your bank account? Because....boo hoo....they're .... DISADVANTAGED.

How would that work out for you? Come on, now. Don't be "self righteous." After all, boo hoo....these are POOR peopale I'm talking about who are coming over to take your TV and your stereo! Oh, and better lock up the wimminfolk, too, while you're at it. You never know!

Spare me the fucking history lessons, too. You can't undo it, and if you don't think that if the Somalis (or any other group of people) had the ability to be Top Dog on this blue marble, that they wouldn't have taken the advantage (because they're so sweet and nice), you're clueless.

Somalia HAS a nascent government now, you know. Guess what mean old assholes helped them start it up? Why, the vicious old USA, among others. How dare they?

I recommend you grow up, and stop excusing criminals and their crimes. Otherwise, when your house gets robbed, or you get knifed on the street and some shithead takes your wallet, don't you dare come crying about it--because, after all, they're POOOOOOOR.

[Threedifferentones]

156. Ugh

So you admit that America got to where it is because we pillaged and oppressed, which is fine, because, by your logic, any country would have done the same thing. So far, so true.

So, why is it not fine for pirates to rob, when you and I would be tempted to do the same thing if we were born in a country where there are no other options, like Somalia? Half the population is starving, everything is controlled by thugs. Does this stop us from buying their bananas? Hell no. To people like you, if Somalians get starved, shot, worked to death, whatever, while growing us food, that's fine. But if they dare try to steal from us, we must hand out "justice."

Because now it's Americans getting hurt. This is why people are flaming you for being a Fox supporter, you use their "logic." How Somalia got so horrible is ancient history, despite the fact that it's also how we got rich. Why worry about that? Now we've won and they've lost, they should just accept it and die.

Theft and poverty in America do not come close. You can move out of a ghetto if you are willing to work and catch some breaks, the same cannot be reasonably said for Somalia. Even if they were comparable, nowhere have I tried to excuse piracy. Just putting it in perspective. When I say that if you or I had been born Somalian we may well have turned out much worse I do not to say that we would have been RIGHT to live off violence. I am merely alluding to the fact that we are all human, and much of our lives are controlled by circumstance. Foreign powers, of which America is not the chief in this case, made Somalia a great place for pirates to hang out and recruit. Why should we not demonize this as a greater evil than the specifics it leads to?

You may demean this perspective as "oooh, pity the poor people no matter what." Like Sean Hannity does on TV. But there is a reason people like that he also demonizes academia as "far left." When you start writing honest histories of countries like Somalia, you realize that industrialized nations were merciless in their pillaging, and that we are still reaping the benefits. America is the biggest part of the system which made this situation. This goes so far beyond a poor junkie mugging you, and you obviously could care less about the context of that.

How do you explain the fact that in America black people are far more likely to be poor and imprisoned than whites, going back now for centuries? Do you blame the differences in culture and prosperity on genetics? If you want to ignore the history involved, you have to. Having no sympathy for our ghettos, it is no wonder you have no sympathy for Somalians.

I am just pointing out that we are benefiting from our nation's present and past exploitation of others, and that those who benefit from the piracy of others are not much better than actual pirates. If you subsist off the American economy, you cannot escape the fact that your prosperity is built off coercion, slavery, violence, piracy, whatever you want to call it. This haunts me everyday.

Sigh, I do not know why I keep responding. Like some understanding soul told me in a PM, you are clearly a lost cause.

You do not refute history, you just do not agree with it? No shit, neither does Fox. It makes America look too fucking bad, so just accept it and move on. Better yet, ignore it, claim it is irrelevant.

I know, it is hard to sleep at night knowing you are living in an evil empire, that our cushy lives are based on their miserable ones. But that's they way it is, and in comparison this recent hijacking is almost irrelevant. Indeed, the easiest way to relate these pirates to the global economy is to point out that, if Somalia could have grown into a true participant, it would not have this problem.

Rich nations made Somalia miserably poor. Indisputable. Because Somalia is so poor, it has alot of pirates, and no way to deal with them. Almost indisputable; poverty and instability do not always lead to piracy, but they always breed violence of some sort.

You say if I were robbed by a poor person I would change my tune. But, it is painfully obvious that, if you had been born in the third world, you would not forget about the blood America shed to make us rich and them poor. You would not overlook the fact that neither side of the cold war fought for ideals, but rather for the resources of defenseless people. And you would not feel sorry for Americans, you might even sympathize with Somalians who rob them.

[MADem]

160. I "adimit" that having a discussion with you is like talking to a simplistic three year old.

What a complete load of jingoistic bullshit!

And I love your "insulting" remarks--"like some understanding soul...." as if I give a shit what you and some rabblerousing troublemaking PMer think. The fact that you take solace from some jerk egging you on says more about you than you realize, too.

Try another argument other than the "Fox" one. No--don't bother. Your grasp of facts suck, and so does your grasp of history.

You know nothing about me, yet you claim to. I have spent half my life outside of the continental US, and a good chunk of that "IN" the Third World you're whining about.

So get off that high horse, toots--you have no idea what you're talking about, and continuing to insult me with "Fox" snark just shows you up to be a blowhard who screams "EWWWWW REPUBLICAN!!!!" when you can't talk or debate from a fact-based position.

Good evening.

:eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

121. Since the US has been involved in every conflict in Somalia for the last

50-odd years, has propped up & armed a variety of thugs, overthrown governments it didn't like by force (most recently in 2006), & basically kept the place in a state of war for my entire life -

*YES, it IS responsible.*

[MADem]

145. Why don't you give us a little lesson on those remarks?

I'd love to hear your version.

[RalphieD]

128. Wake UP!

You are drinking the Kool-Aid!  You must be a Faux News
follower since they are continually spouting about how they
were carrying "Aid".  Don't you think America caused
the conditions in Somalia to become a failed state?

[MADem]

146. No, I don't --and halfassed insults like "You must be a Faux news follower"

don't make your unarticulated case any more compelling.

Tell ya what--you have so much sympathy for the poor, you won't mind if they come over and rob your house....because they're POOR. Ain't that right?

Wake up, indeed. Take your own advice.

[Threedifferentones]

157. When Somalians are being killed everyday to bring us cheap food, that's fine.

But, when Somalians rob Americans, that is a real problem.

Why is this?

Fox News never explains, and neither will you. Both of you just pretend that poor people deserve what they get and move along with life. I'm sure this makes is easier to sleep at night, but so do many lies...

[MADem]

158. Killed everyday to bring us cheap food? What, are you eating Somalis?

Are they "what's for dinner?"

They weren't "robbing Americans." They were trying to hijack a ship of aid to....SOMALIA.

:eyes:

Most of the ships hit haven't been US flag carriers. We've not been impacted by these jerks the way others have (to the tune of in excess of a hundred and fifty million in ransoms, just last year). They've been from the Arab world, India, Europe and elsewhere.

You know, when you desperately attempt to "link" me with Faux Snooze (as you just did) to imply somehow that I'm a "Republican" on this progressive site, that makes you look like a total name-calling asshole who cannot argue a position on the merits. So go on and keep "casting your asparagus" there, toots--because your dinky little names will never hurt me, and moreover, they won't make your uninformed arguments any more cogent.

[G_j]

62. so having a short lifespan in a poverty wracked country

is less cause to have any sympathy for them?

rather heartless

[MADem]

63. No, the way they board Yemeni fishing boats, owned by subsistence level fishermen,

and shoot the guys and toss their bodies over the side, and then use those boats as decoys to board other vessels....why, that's "cause" to not be terribly sympathetic to them. I have a limited amount of sympathy, you see--I find my sympathy flows more towards those fishermen, their widows and their children.

But do go on and call me heartless because I can't spare any boo-hooing for the little shit with the big gold grin and blood on his hands. I don't do that kind of "equivalency."

[G_j]

68. you're the one who brought up the lifespan thing

but go ahead, change the subject

[MADem]

69. I am not changing the subject. The subject is pirates.

Here, do a little reading on your poor, freedom fighting, downtrodden heroes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7650415.stm
Not even their NEIGHBORS like them much.


According to residents in the Somali region of Puntland where most of the pirates come from, they live a lavish life....
"They have money; they have power and they are getting stronger by the day," says Abdi Farah Juha who lives in the regional capital, Garowe.

"They wed the most beautiful girls; they are building big houses; they have new cars; new guns," he says.

"Piracy in many ways is socially acceptable. They have become fashionable."

Most of them are aged between 20 and 35 years - in it for the money.



Take the time to read the whole thing.

[Joe Chi Minh]

99. That's why I wonder how many of us would baulk at hostage-taking piracy,

in those circumstances.

Of course, such piracy and hostage-taking is wrong, but so is war, so are many other things we are involved in - particularly in the economic sphere, need I say? You have to consider the context as a human being in a very, very imperfect world, and not all the posters on here seem to understand that.

In that sense, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that stealing food to avoid starving is not a sin. Of course, it is an actual sin, but as the Church puts it, it is not a formal sin. As buccaneers go, those young, Somali pirates may well be reprehensible in God's eyes, but he knew the pressures on poorer folk, and that the biggest buccaneers get to run the world. So, the former would be more likely to viewed in the same forgiving light as Jesus looked on the Good Thief. Perhaps more so than "respectable" old us.

[MADem]

106. They aren't stealing so they won't starve, though. They're stealing

AND MURDERING--to afford flat screen tvs, large homes full of servants, and three wives.

They aren't "poor." They're the elites. That's the Big Lie that keeps popping up like a fart in a bathtub here.

[Joe Chi Minh]

115. And what would be their standard of living/dying if they'd not turned to this piracy?

That doesn't seem to have inmpinged on your consciousness, does it? Did you see the actuarial figure relating to the average male life-span one poster published here?

Don't you understand that we in the West have been and continue to murder millions of people by inches in countries such as Somalia by economic exploitation backed up by armed force. Guess what? So that we can have flat-screen TVs, and be at the leading edge of such technology - for what it's worth. At least one of your largest companies, currently in the news cheats, threatens and strong-arms Americans and Canadians into using their products, when there is evidence that their products have caused major health problems.

[MADem]

139. What would be MY standard of living if I robbed your house?

And the homes of your neighbors? How about I steal your car, too, while I'm at it After all, my "standard of living" could be improved.

Guess what--these pirates ruin it for the poor in Somalia, by forcing prices upwards. But that "doesn't seem to have impinged on YOUR consciousness, does it?" To say nothing of the tiny little fact that murder, kidnapping and thievery are crimes.

Spare me your "cultural sensitivity" bullshit. Stop trying to justify murder on the high seas with an incredibly dumb, bleeding heart "cultural" argument. If your brother were Captain Phillips I doubt you'd feel that way. If your son were one of the "subsistence level" Yemeni fisherman those bastards gutted like a tuna and tossed over the side in order to steal a boat to commit their crimes, I don't think you'd be whinging along with that idiotic approach to VIOLENT criminal acts. I'm not buying your claptrap.

Guess why the pirates are jacking these ships? So THEY can have flat screen tvs. They aren't Robin Hoods. They're ASSHOLES. And anyone who supports their criminal activity is either an asshole, too, or dumb as dirt.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

162. Ewww, inarticulate RAGE!!! Oh, the horror!

Sorry pal--the one who's mad here isn't me, it's you.

You can't respond to the point I made, so you suggest that I'm angry! Is that supposed to make me cry, or something?

:rofl:

Lock your doors, now--some "poor people" might be robbing you before you know it! And of course, you're the cheerleader for murdering thieves, so you won't be able to pipe up about it without sounding like the Hypocrite of the Century!

Oh, and do a little research--my facts are in order. Yours are not.

:hi:

[Dorian Gray]

140. That question is ridiculous!

What would Bernie Madoff's standard of living been if he hadn't scammed all his shareholders/investors????

[Joe Chi Minh]

153. Probably excellent by most people's standards. But some people

in every society can never have enough.

[Dorian Gray]

142. Sorry... double post

[Dorian Gray]

143. triple post....

I had a system failure....

[Hannah Bell]

123. no, the people in the boats aren't *the elites*. the people financing them

are the elites.

Puntland is the center of the US/UK sphere of influence, & the Puntland pirates, according to a 2008 UN report, are supported & protected by officials of the comprador administration *we* fund, the intelligence services *we* set up, the coast guard the UK set up & trained.

The people in the boats are like street level drug dealers; they look flashy, but they're not the power.

The power wears suits.

[MADem]

149. In the country of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

In their neighborhood, these are the guys with the big houses, the servants, the three young wives, the nicest cars, the best guns and the big screen TVs.

They may not be billionaires, but they're lieutenants in the Somali mafia.

Oh, and you know what else they are? They're criminals. They are thieves, hijackers and murderers.

[Hannah Bell]

120. halfway through their lives mainly because the us & other big powers

have fought proxy wars there for the last 50 years, almost continuously so the main source of paying employment is soldiering & security.

most recently, the us-funded & armed 2006 invasion of ethiopia.

and more coming!!!!

[walkaway]

41. Yes Kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Source: ChinaView

WASHINGTON, April 13 (Xinhua) -- U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said on Monday that three Somali pirates who were killed by the Navy's Seals to end a hostage crisis were "untrained" teenagers.

Addressing an audience at the Marine Corps War College in Quantico, Virginia, Gates said that the slain pirates, aged at between 17 to 19, were heavily armed but inexperienced.

[MADem]

43. Some of whom have MULTIPLE wives.

But they're just "kids."

[Hannah Bell]

122. who gives a good god-damn how many wives they have?

tell you what, go live there. take your kids, see how they fare.

[MADem]

148. Rich people have more than one wife. Tell you what, let's allow the poor to rob your house.

After all, they're "disadvantaged." Let's let them take your car, too. See, they need it. That's the only reason they'd rob you. Hand over your wallet, too, while you're at it.

Let's have a big 'Three Cheers' cryfest for the poor thieves, hijackers and murderers!



:eyes:

[doctor jazz]

54. Boys just being boys.

3 down, a few hundred to go.

[Joe Chi Minh]

134. Are you implying it wasn't a re-run of the Battle of Midway? There's gonna be a lot

of long faces on here. And there's a gump here wants a tee-shirt in celebration. Says there's not an ounce of jingoism in him.

[ForrestGump]

141. Okay. I guess irony or even an attempt at humor

totally escapes you.

How about "fuck you." Does that resonate?

[Joe Chi Minh]

151. Deleted as cheap and nasty.

[ForrestGump]

161. Not true

You're still here. You're not deleted at all.

[opihimoimoi]

12. Pity yes...not sorry....they under took a nefarious mission for MONEY

never mind all that shit about pollution and over fishing.....they are desperate...yes....poor, yess....but its no license to commit crime on the High Seas...

They are punks with weapons....and should be eliminated should they continue....as with those 3 who lost their heads committing a crime....

They deserved to die.....period....

[Mugu]

14. I've known several men that killed others in the line of duty.

I've never known one that wasn't haunted by it.

The outcome of this standoff while unfortunate was decided by the pirates and no others.

[BirminghamExaminer]

15. You should read the background on these guys

before making a judgment. I don't feel sorry for the pirates but I understand how they came to be pirates. They are very much like LA street gangs however, and wreak the same kind of havoc in their local communities that gangs do.

Here's a link to some background for further reading if you want to understand their situation better:

http://www.examiner.com/x-1172-Birmingham-Progressive-Politics-Examiner~y2009m4d11-Pirates-threaten-disaster-if-US-uses-force-to-free-Maersk-Alabama-Cptn-Richard-Phillips

Scroll down to the middle of the article and you'll see "Background on pirates" or something like that that delves a little into the background of these guys.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. We need them to reduce global warming

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5449236&mesg_id=5449236

[Saturday]

18. Would you prefer Phillips was dead? nt

[walkaway]

24. Do you really think anyone here wants that?

Then why are you asking such an insulting question?

[cali]

25. can you read, dear?

No, I'm not saying that the military shouldn't have killed them to free Captain Phillips, it's just that it's a sorry thing.

Let me put this in very simple terms for the simple minded: I am thrilled that Captain Phillips is returning to his home a few towns down the road from where I live.

[stray cat]

21. Almost everyone wishes they had surrendered but they didn't and insisted on ransom

I wish most crooks would surrender willingly.

[BirminghamExaminer]

31. They also threatened to kill him if US tried to rescue him without ransom n.t.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

22. I do, too, but they had beaten the American,

and they were holding a AK-47 on him.

Kids or not, they knew what they were doing, and when they saw the Americans closing in, they very easily could have surrendered. It would probably have made life a lot easier for them, but now, alas, that's moot..................

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

26. Sounds reasonable. -nt

[pacalo]

27. Yeah, let's save all our vitriolic & sailor language for posters who have different opinions than we

do.

:sarcasm:

[sampsonblk]

28. The whole thing is tragic - nt

[remedy1]

29. Boo fucking hoo for the pirates.

Right. Poor pirates.

Why don't you jump on a boat to Somalia and talk some sense into those "kids."

:rofl:

[cali]

30. don't stop humping that strawman of yours

[Sheepshank]

33. That's like saying you feel sorry for

the drunk driver that kills the kids playing the front yard on the road he couldn't quite maneuver through safely. Life's tough and he couldn't handle it without a drink.

It's like saying you feel sorry for the pg crack whore who delivers her preemie, addicted baby in a toilet and tries to flush it into the sewer..because she does what she feels is necessary for survival.

I don't feel sorry for them. They are not trying to merely survive, they are trying to kill for lots of money...millions of money. They are diverting aid to fellow countrymen so they can get millions.....surviival has spilled over into greed.

And they have the nerve to now state that unless the world quietly acquiesces to their need to hold ships hostage, they will now start killing. Not and ounce of pity on them.

[cali]

34. no, it's really not. n/t

[ima_sinnic]

35. i wonder what self-righteous, holier-than-thou all-knowing YOU would do

if born into a country with no government, no laws, no social services, no schools, no jobs, polluted soil and ocean, no way to make a living, hardly any food and water, no hope.

of course, you're so special, you would lie down and die rather than feel desperate and resort to crime in order to survive. you would of course tell some big-shot thug running your neighborhood that your "principles" are more important than his threats, coercion, extortion, and bribes to commit robbery or piracy or whatever he is making you do.

ignorance breeds callousness.

[Democracyinkind]

37. Thank you. Better answer than I could have given considering

how angry I get when reading such stuff. Well said. Thanks.

[walkaway]

42. I second that n/t

[Sheepshank]

74. How far back

are you willing to go to finally find innocence/justification in the actions of the guilty, and yet again find a way to crap on the ones that were being hurt? Typical to blame the victim.

I'm neither arrogant, not living a privileged life. You know nothing about what I and my family have gone through. We would NOT think to kill or threaten the life of another human being to steal a buck. So you get off you fucking judgmental horse. You have decided here and now that so long as one life can be judged to have been more difficult and more tenuous than another, they have the right to steal, kill and plunder....BULL!

[ForrestGump]

85. "...born into a country with no government, no laws, no social services, no schools, no jobs...

...polluted soil and ocean, no way to make a living, hardly any food and water, no hope."




It's always important to bear in mind that we don't really know who we're talking to here. The poster you're referring to may know too well what it is like to grow up in such a desperate environment. They may come from Michigan.

[Hannah Bell]

124. has michigan been without government, money, hope & in a state of war

for generations? i didn't know that.

[ForrestGump]

129. Mississippi?

Florida?

Has to be one or the other.

[sabrina 1]

96. Those 'rah-rahing' the deaths of the pirates

are the personality types to do exactly as the pirates are doing. Especially if they are 'patriotic' and angry about what has happened to their country.

Those who are not cheering, would most likely try to talk them out of using violence.


Who would be right is the real question? Do you do nothing when your country is reduced to a state of lawlessness as a result of colonialist greed and oppression and allow your family to die of starvation and desease, or do you grow up feeling that you have a right to do what was done to your country, take what you can, especially from people you believe, as the fishermen do, who disrespected your rights in your own country?

According to the article linked above, there are three kinds of pirates:

The ex-fisherman who are considered the "brains of the operation" were once traditional fisherman whose livelihoods were lost when they couldn't compete with trawlers illegally raiding their waters. The ex-militiamen who are considered the brawn of the operations formerly fought for various clan warlords in the area. The technical experts operate the high tech equipment such as GPS, satellite phones and military hardware needed to operate as a successful pirate.

I imagine the fishermen, who according to what I've read did try to get help to stop the theft of their livelihood, (their pleas were ignored) are, at least when they started out, motivated by extreme anger and maybe patriotism.

All of this is blowback from decades, or centuries of wars and many of these countries that were invaded and robbed of their natural resources, when they were of no more use to the invaders, were left to survive or not.

You'd think we'd have learned by now that wars and pillage have consequences. But then, we've been lucky as the blowback doesn't often reach the actual guilty parties and is more likely to further victimize those already suffering.

I'm sure there will be blowback to the torture and killing of so many Iraqis sometime in the future, and I'm sure, the reaction here in this country will be to 'blow their heads off' also.

I don't know what anyone can do for Somalia at this point, it has been ignored by the world for so long. But we shouldn't forget that under Bush the US DID get involved over there (in Ethiopia) on the pretext of the WOT.

Btw, two more ships were captured by pirates today according to the news.

[scarletwoman]

36. Rec'd. Thank you for your post. You and I seldom, if ever, agree on anything here -- however,

I want to tell you that I really appreciate what you've said in your OP.

Yes, it is indeed "a sorry thing". You said it well.

Brava, Cali.

sw

[cali]

55. thanks.

cheering violent death- no matter the circumstances- juss hits me the wrong way.

[scarletwoman]

57. You're very welcome. I'm totally with you -- cheering violent death is truly disgusting, imho. nt

[ForrestGump]

86. Unless they're with credit collection agencies, yes

The pirates got what they deserved, and there're many more pirate scum around the world who I hope will join them, but I'd cheer louder if they'd just give up on the yo-ho-ho. Of course, in the real world, new pirates (new child soldiers, new perpetrators of genocide, new Republicans, and so on) will continue to add to the ranks and, inevitably, this sort of thing will always be with us in some form and so we'll continue the quandary that can be set up when there's no realistic response to their violent acts other than focused violence in return.

[Occam Bandage]

38. They still made the conscious decision to point an AK-47 at an unarmed civilian hostage.

"They were just kids following orders" would describe the perpetrators of just about every war crime ever, after all.

[Hannah Bell]

127. & in the case of war crimes, i'd lay primary responsibility on the suits who sent

them to war, who created the situation in the first place.

[DevonRex]

40. You point an AK at the head of a hostage in full view of the Navy SEALs, you get shot.

Period. They had days to surrender peacefully. They did not. The Navy was even towing them to safer, calmer waters. Yet they decided it was a good time to stand up with their AKs and shove them in the guy's face after saying they were gonna kill him yet AGAIN.

How many times do they get to threaten to kill an unarmed man and shove their weapons in his face before they're taken out? Huh? If they were crazy enough to do that, they were crazy enough to commit MURDER.

[walkaway]

47. No one is saying it didn't have to be done.

We are just pointing out that it is inhuman to dance on someones grave. Cheering for the return of a hostage is one thing. Cheering for the deaths of these kids is just rotten. We may never know the circumstances that drove them to their acts and they have been punished and so have their beaten down and starving families.

It's a free country so crow away, but it's not very becoming.

[DevonRex]

52. I haven't seen grave dancing, which is not to say there hasn't been any.

I've seen a lot of people accused of grave dancing when they're simply glad it's over and that it was handled in such a professional way.

We did all the right things here. We negotiated. We gave them lots of time to reconsider their actions. They decided to shove the gun in his face. Our Navy saved an innocent man from a horrible death. He didn't ask for this to happen. He was doing his job delivering relief supplies to the region so many more people wouldn't starve to death or die for lack of basic antibiotics.

If being proud that we did all the right things is grave dancing then this is truly an alternate universe.

[ForrestGump]

88. I should also point out that

it's hard to dance on water.

Esther Williams, aside, of course.

[ForrestGump]

87. What part of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA or THE UNITED STATES NAVY did they not understand?

I'm no fan of jingoism, to say the least, but, really...come on....how likely is it that these pirates hadn't seen even ONE Hollywood action film in which some bulletproof special-ops veteran reluctantly and successfully takes on an entire military force in some Nation of Generic Dusky-Skinned People without even messing up their stage makeup? Navy SEALs may not be at all like that notorious fake and general f***wit, Steve Segal, but that doesn't mean that they're less capable or more hyped than their celluloid depiction.

I have zero sympathy for pirates, at least at the point where they commit the act. Yeah, there's default human empathy and all that, especially when it now so obviously appears that the pirates started out as members of PETA and Greenpeace who just got frustrated by the environmental depredations of Western capitalists, but when they commit piracy they're choosing to put their lives in at least as much risk as is perceived by the crews they captured. But if they'd kept their heads on straight (definitely no sniper-related pun intended here) perhaps they would have realized that you can't go home again -- warlords, no boat, and all that -- and that they were four guys with light weapons in a lifeboat facing down the most powerful navy ever fielded and that the only course of action that made any sense would have been to surrender to the Yanks rather promptly and count on them not repatriating. Sure, the US military has not been averse to monumental blunders and failures -- Grenada was even a close call for a while, believe it or not -- but I think anyone who's observed US military action to any extent at all would expect any such potential failure to be followed by the navy just blasting the entire lifeboat from the water, hostage and all, and then counting on some talking suit in DC to spin the result. Basically, staring down and playing chicken with any navy, let alone a really big one with access to all kinds of high-tech toys that might enable them to subtract a few pirates from the planet, as well as Marines and SEALs, is not too bright. What the hell were they thinking? Were they that greedy, or that afraid of the warlords? Surrender to America. We've got Twinkies! And the Playboy Channel!!

[Marie26]

94. It's like feeling sorry for narco-traffickers, or mobsters, or terrorists

Yes, it's very sad that young men join these enterprises as a result of poverty or lack of opportunity, etc. But once they reach the point of being violent criminals & a threat to innocent people, they lose a large amount of my sympathy. Being a mobster, drug lord or pirate offers lucrative rewards, but a pretty high risk of violent death as well. "Live by the sword, die by the sword."

[TwilightGardener]

45. I don't. Not one bit. Hope they're enjoying hell.

[liquid diamond]

75. Agreed

They got what they deserved. I won't join the pity party either.

[sendero]

49. There is nothing wrong..

... with feeling sorry for them, I sorta do also, it's not like these kids have much in the way of choices.

But, they were holding a hostage and threatening his life, there was nothing else the navy could do really.

[Joe Chi Minh]

100. In fact, those pirates would probably be the flower of the country's youth:

Somalia's potential special-services guys! Do you think, in their shoes, your snipers would sit at home, as yet more long-term unemployed, doing crossword puzzles? I don't think so.

We have a saying in our army: "If you've never been thrown in the cells, you're not a soldier." And you can see the point. (No prizes for estimating my martial status, by the way).

[tbyg52]

50. No argument here. nt

[LanternWaste]

51. Crime is born of poverty, but incubated in our own souls...

I feel sorry for collective, worldwide poverty, and the financial, political and social environment which placed the decision in front of them-- "do you want to pry out a subsistence living from a land rife with chaos and violence, or do you want to make some serious dollars to send back to your family working for a group you know to be dishonorable and without dignity?"

Crime is born of poverty, but incubated in our own souls; and in the final analysis, the choice is always ours alone to make.



I will neither weep for them, nor laugh at them; their wives, daughters and mothers will do the former, whilst too many in this world will do the latter.

But I will celebrate the rescue of the good Captain, and while I feel confident you yourself are mature and insightful enough to recognize a valid difference between the two-- that one does not necessarily preclude or include the other, it would appear that many among us do not.

[DevonRex]

53. Cali, you are a goodhearted person. You are grieving for the boys

they were when they were small and for what should have been. I respect that and I also grieve for the same things.

[bushmeister0]

56. How many of our guests at GTMo were teenagers when they were brought there?

I'm just thinking these guys might have had that and Abu Ghraib on their minds when the Captain of the Bainbridge told then to surrender.

That's one of the drawbacks of torturing POWs. They'd rather die than surrender, unlike the Iraqi army who thought we'd treat them as POWs, not as "terrorists."

[lucretia54]

59. Thank you Cali...

I am new here and have seen some great discussions, but at times the testosterone level seems way too high for me!

I am sad that it ended the way it did, but even more sad that it looks like a new and different kind of war has landed on Obama's desk....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

64. K&R for common decency.

[Captain Hilts]

65. It's sad. Here's hoping our actions deter more pirates and more kids being used as pirates. nt

[cboy4]

66. If it had been a boat full of 14 year olds okay....but it sounds as

though they acted very adult toward their hostage.

[varelse]

67. Thanks for not being afraid to say it

I don't share your pity for the dead pirates themselves, but I do appreciate your reminding everyone that they, too, were human beings.

[Joe the Revelator]

73. Man Cali, you're just all over the map on this issue

For three days you whined that Obama needed to DOOOO!!! something, and now that he and the navy did, you feel sorry for them

[Reterr]

78. What? Someone has a nuanced view on this (or anything else)?

Perish the thought :mad:!!!!

[cali]

80. I never said Obama needed to do something.

I analyzed the political ramifications for Obama if the Captain wasn't rescued. And I wrote a piece prior to his rescue about the bloodthirsty stuff going on here.

[Reterr]

76. Good post-agree

I don't condone any of their actions, but we really do ignore the significance of what I think of as the "birth lottery" in the first world sometimes. Heck, even within first world societies you can often find studies showing that people rarely if ever make significant leaps out of the socio-economic class that they are born into. So imagine how much worse it is if you are born in Somalia, Sudan etc.

[blonndee]

79. I wish they'd surrendered, too. But I don't feel sorry for them. Not one bit.

They made their choice. They were prepared to kill someone (or at least gave every indication of doing so); why would they not think others would be prepared to kill on behalf of that someone? I also saw a headline indicating that a couple of these "pirates" were quite experienced. If true, I'd say they had it easy for a while and should have quit when they were ahead.

I realize there are circumstances that "drive" these young men to piracy. That is too bad, and those things need to be remedied. But when it comes to kidnapping and holding people hostage, all bets are off. People who excuse that behavior are pathetic and here on DU I suspect some of them are trolls to make liberals look like fools.

[ForrestGump]

89. Absolutely agree

Bad situation, and the circumstances that may or may not underpin individual choices of piracy in that specific part of the world are sad in a number of ways, but when it comes down to it it's no different than any other choice to embrace violence, especially violence for personal gain. When you point a lethal weapon at someone, no matter what kind, the only valid assumption is that you're prepared to use it. It doesn't matter if you were only bluffing, either...the only appropriate response is similar or greater force in return, one potential outcome being your death.

[Joe Chi Minh]

101. I don't feel that sorry for them. Death's not the end. What I do feel is intense anger towards

ourselves for looting their country and many others.

[ForrestGump]

117. We looted Somalia?

And I didn't even get a Mogadishu Hard Rock T-shirt!

Darn.

Always the way.

[cali]

138. OK, God. Look, you may believe thet death's not the end

but that doesn't make it a fact. In any case, though the U.S. has intervened somewhat in Somalia, it's hardly looted the country.

[Joe Chi Minh]

155. Yes. Right on both counts. As regards the second, I evidently scanned a post

on this subject in a much too cursory way. In fact, it was we, Europeans, who colonised the country and maybe fomented all the recent wars that have followed. And arguably, the latter is on a par with the wickedness of the worst forms of economic exploitation. Well, it's always all about economics, isn't it? And the US provided the paradigm for the rest of the world to follow. Not that our leaders in the UK would have needed any prompting, of course.

[Blue-Jay]

81. Lemme think about this....

Nope. I'm still arriving at "Fuck 'em."

[Orsino]

84. They are only the visible tip of the iceberg, so to speak...

...of a people who have been rendered nearly invisible in the west. When a society doesn't leave room for civilized ways to prosper, we shouldn't feign surprise when some choose other paths. We muster plenty of outrage when it comes to condemning piracy, but somehow there is less enthusiasm for improving the conditions in their land.

[ForrestGump]

90. They're invisible in the West?

Damn. My worst nightmare. Invisible pirates! :scared:

I thought ninja were scary...



You're right, though. This doesn't excuse their behavior -- many people in desperate circumstances, in dysfunctional nations, do not make the conscious choice to prey on others. But you're undeniably right. Now, trying to figure out what can be done with Somalia, especially if at least a good chunk of the general population really is resistant to a change for the better (I know little of the place, but I've seen a few snippets that make me wonder about how salvageable it is in its current and recent state) seems like one of those Gordian Knot kind of exercises.

[Joe Chi Minh]

102. ...or just leaving them in peace and relative prosperity.

[Winterblues]

91. Did you feel sorry for those teenagers that dragged the burnt bodies of American GIs through their

villages in a makeshift parade? They are people that have zero respect for property or life and deserve no sypathy for any losses they may receive.

[endarkenment]

98. I know, lets nuke mogadishu. nt.

[NorthernSpy]

111. How would we behave if someone tried to invade the United States?

Abusing the bodies of dead enemies is least of what we'd do, and you know it.


In fact, at Abu Ghraib, we DID abuse the bodies of both dead and living captives -- and WE were the invaders in that war.

[ForrestGump]

131. YOU might abuse dead bodies -- you certainly don't hesitate to abuse live minds, apparently.

But please don't project.

[Hannah Bell]

132. Kinda like those teenagers like Lyddie English...

[Marie26]

92. Yeah, I don't.

On the list of people I feel sorry for, Somali pirates are very very far down. *checks* Actually, they're not on it at all.

[Mari333]

93. thank you for showing empathy and compassion

its a very rare thing to see, indeed. hugs.

[underseasurveyor]

97. May no one here

ever have to experience and/or live the conditions these said pirates did/do, so that none of us will ever know what it's like to be backed into such a bleak corner that we may have to make such desperate choices with our own lives.

I'm very happy for the Captain, his family and the crew, aside from that up-point it is tragic and sad no matter how one sees it.

[amborin]

104. they want to save fisheries from extinction due to imperialist over-fishing

[lumberjack_jeff]

109. And the seals. They want to save the seals... whales too.

And they love puppies.

[NorthernSpy]

113. Do you think that stealing fish from the poor and dumping toxic waste are good things?

My opinion is that those things are ALSO piracy, and that whatever level of force is appropriate in dealing with the Somali pirates is ALSO appropriate in dealing with those OTHER pirates.


Do you disagree?

[ForrestGump]

118. Your opinion would be wrong

By your logic, I could describe flower arranging as piracy.

Piracy is a specific act.

Stealing fishes and dumping toxic stuff is a whole other thing, and not a good one.

[Joe Chi Minh]

136. How about software piracy, oh pedantic one? You went on to make Nortehrn Spy's point:

technical definitions are for Mr McGoo. Immeasurably worse evils have been inflicted on Somalia by other countries, and you're getting hysterical about pea-shooter attacks by Rag Tag and Bobtail. Now you know about the toxic dumping and fishing piracy why aren't you getting worked up about that?

[ForrestGump]

137. Give it a rest

Not sure where you get the idea that I'm 'hysterical' about piracy, though I'd submit that if you think I'm out of line in seeing them as a serious threat then you're showing an awful lot of contempt for people who've been preyed upon by these pigs around the world. And pirating software? Pfffttthhh. If that's the best you have, you pseudo-pedantic git, you're revealing an awful lot about how little you have. When was the last time some kid copying or downloading software held someone at gunpoint or raped or killed the purveyor of such software?

One reason I'm so anti-pirate is that I grew up in and continued to work in environments closely tied to the sea and have for most of my life been surrounded by people who work or have worked on the ocean around the entire globe. One facet of that background is that I am a marine biologist, one with advanced degrees who has worked in the field and whose research specialties include conservation biology in tropical marine environments, so only a smarmy fuckwit would assume that destructive fishing practices and environmental contamination are not concerns of mine -- I spent a good deal of time writing research grants and papers and conducting field research on these very topics.

Pirates' actions cannot be excused by any of the factors being flung about here -- understood, perhaps, but not excused and certainly not condoned. It's no different than any other violent gang, or similar: many years ago I interacted with Bloods and Crips, finding them disgusting pieces of human trash basically describable as drugged-up sociopaths, and at that same time I worked alongside people who lived in Compton and other parts of LA who were worlds apart from these punks. The gang members' whining to the effect that the place in which they grew up gave them no choice but crime, said whining interspersed with glorious obsession on the wonders of gunfire and some pretty cold statements such that they don't care if some little girl or grandmother is caught in the crossfire, was belied by the lives led by people with the same kinds of repressive cultural and historical background from the same neighborhood who chose a different path and commuted clear across Los Angeles, to the San Fernando Valley (no mean feat, if you know LA), every weekday to work.

Pirates are the bad guys here. Some, especially in other parts of the world, most definitely deserve no quarter.

[Joe Chi Minh]

150. You have a facile and very personally convenient way of looking at the world

and how it is run. Although, as you say, "Some, especially in other parts of he world, deserve no quarter."

Piracy is, certainly, always a brutal, ugly murderous affair, however limited and one-eyed the remarks of a commentator with an evidently privileged background, such as yourself, may, and indeed does, sound - particularly the tough talk, so characteristic of Republicans. I've done it myself, with my then pathetic, tabloid understanding of what I was talking about, at an age when I should have known a lot better. I've since come to see that it was not the terrorists on either side who were the main villains of the piece, but the politicians.

Now we have Republican terrorists of an altogether different ilk wreaking murder and mayhem through sheer ignorance, and without the support of an oppressed community - but rather the opposition of a formerly oppressed, but now largely emancipated, Irish Catholic community.

One day, we will all be judged by the Amighty, but, like it or lump it, it will be in terms of the context of our life and actions. You may one day come to be eternally grateful for that.

[ForrestGump]

159. Exceedingly obvious that you don't know what you're talking about,

and you sure as hell don't know me or my life. I can make one very valid immediate assumption about you, though, and that is that you seem to revel in making immediate assumptions...of course, my assumption's at least based on casual observation of the way you interact with posters over a few DU topics these last few hours, and that's decidedly more than you have to go on.

[Joe Chi Minh]

135. The worst is yet to come. China and the US are salivating at the oil fields

there, just waiting to be exploited.

On the other hand, Somalia could be on the verge of having those wonderful Iraqi-style freedoms bestowed on them.

[alarimer]

114. I do too.

The world has largely ignored the causes of this problem and maybe even contributed to it.

The fact is we are all only a catastrophe or three away from that. I truly believe each and every person here is capable of heinous things in similar circumstances. We are no different, really.

[renie408]

116. I agree. It is easy to sit here in front of a computer in your house or the local Starbuck's

and judge what people of no means, no education and no hope end up doing due to a lack of options. It is a shitty situation all the way around.

I always remember something I read a long time ago that was said in Britain during the Corn Riots. I am paraphrasing, but it went something like "I defy you to get a well fed Englishman to riot". The point being that (in general) happy, well fed people don't riot, don't take hostages, don't kill each other. Honestly, most people don't want to be RICH, they want to be secure. Don't get me wrong, they wouldn't MIND being rich, they just wouldn't KILL or risk their lives for it if they had enough to eat and a future for their children.

[TankLV]

125. self delete

I actually see where you're coming from...after re-reading the OP...

[Blue_Tires]

147. I am curious why so little attention is being paid

to the people who actually fund and coordinate the attacks -- the rich warlords sitting comfortably in a compound way inland...I'm glad the situation was resolved, but I can't get that celebratory over eliminating three easily disposable foot soldiers...The symptoms are being addressed and not the disease

[JuniperLea]

152. I agree, cali

Hunger and hopelessness does strange things to people, and these youngsters were caught in the middle of some of the worst of it on Earth.

I feel sorry whenever life is lost, even the most heinous of murderers. We could have learned a lot from picking the brain of Saddam Hussein, for example. Opportunity lost... and a martyr created... what a waste.

When we cheer the loss of life, we lose.

[BlooInBloo]

163. It's not like there's a sorry shortage. There's enough to go around for everybody in the situation.

[deaniac21]

164. I do too! They haven't won a pennant since 1979...