I want this thread to be a RESPECTFUL disucussion of the decision to not prosecute torture

[Stinky The Clown]

I am very disappointed in the administration's disinclination to prosecute known crimes.




edit to correct the meaning - changed "inclination" to "disinclination"

[polichick]

1. I am disappointed too - and so is Keith Olbermann, who is covering it now.

[AllieB]

2. I'm watching KO right now.

I'm very very disappointed in the Obama Administration.

[Junkdrawer]

3. I respectfully think Obama is shielding Bush by not forcing those...

lower in the food chain to talk.

[Stinky The Clown]

9. That sort of makes no sense

I have no idea if your assertion is true or not, so I am not arguing that. I am simply saying that it makes no sense.

[Junkdrawer]

17. If everyone in Watergate (including Dean) were given blanket immunity...

would Nixon's crimes ever have been revealed?

Dean talked because he was looking at a prison sentence.

[BlooInBloo]

4. Good luck with that. It's only a matter of time before the "Obama is a war criminal" folks show up..

But yah - it's hugely disappointing.

[bdamomma]

22. interesting assumpation of the comment of Obama is a war criminal.

Senator Leahy will not get any repigs stepping up to the plate on any sort of investigation.

[LakeSamish706]

5. Not sure what the point of releasing the memo's today was if they are not going...

to go after some of the people that were involved in these crimes.

[Stinky The Clown]

7. Actually, that's the good part.

As John Dean just said on Olbermann's show ...... having him release the memos tells us he doesn't plan to use the methods.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

10. No. I read that Holder officially rescinded all memos and the use of those techniques today.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. Uh ..... I think we agree, don't we?

He released the memos which is tantamount to saying he isn't going to do that. Then they rescind the 'orders' implicit in the memos, making it official that they're not going to do it.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

16. Yes, we agree. Sorry for the confusion, I meant "no" as in "no they don't plan to continue"

Sorry
:hi:

[polichick]

11. Dean also said he has left a door open for prosecutions.

[bdamomma]

20. I admire Dean, but I think the door is kind of closing unless we pry it open.

I hope the ACLU comes up with something, this decision is horrible, and the practices of the bush regime deemed to reappear again.

[polichick]

21. I think he was referring to the lawyers - they could be prosecuted.

[bdamomma]

25. another thing that Dean said that I remain hopeful is that

the Spain court has not said they will not prosecute the 6 bush thugs.

[polichick]

27. This was just posted...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3835569

[Spazito]

23. I think he did leave a door open, certainly for those not listed as being...

protected from prosecution. None of the DOJ officials who authorized this are covered under the protection from prosecution, none of them.

"will not prosecute CIA officers"

None of the people who authorized this in the memos, etc, are CIA officers.

[Stinky The Clown]

28. That's the only faint hope I have in all this .......

.... and for me, I actually don't care all that much about the CIA guys. I want the gangleaders.

[Spazito]

35. On legal issues like this, it is very telling what is NOT said as well as what is...

and not listing anyone BUT the CIA officers as being protected from prosecution sends a very clear message that those NOT on the 'protected' list are vulnerable to prosecution.

[LakeSamish706]

14. Yeah, I understand that and would not have expected him to use such means....

But when all of the public (If many get to read/hear about what the memo's contain) they may demand investigations and indictments, I hope.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

6. I agree. It's disheartening to say the very least.

[Solly Mack]

8. I'm disgusted

respectfully

[aquart]

12. Elizabeth I didn't want to behead Mary Queen of Scots, either.

Didn't like the precedent. But she finally got off her ass and did it. Sometimes it just takes time.

[antigop]

13. I'm more than disappointed. I'm angry. n/t

[Canuckistanian]

18. On the bright side, nothing was said about immunity for the ones who gave the orders

But you're right, of course. Torture is a CLEAR violation of the Geneva Conventions AND Title 18 of the U.S.C. § 2340.

I don't think there's much "wiggle room" if the law is invoked in a court of law. It's clearly a crime.

BUT the question is, who's going to prosecute it? It would be a minefield of "political interference" accusations and YOU KNOW they're going to use The Military Commissions Act to defend this.

No prosecutor in his right mind is going to touch this unless ORDERED to do so.

And I don't think Holder has the guts.

[Qutzupalotl]

19. Prosense has a great thread on this subject:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5473136

As I understand it, the door is still open for prosecuting the higher-ups who authorized torture.

I'll concede that it is the usual practice to go after the lower-ranks and get them to turn on the higher-ups. My suspicion is that this was not done here because of the unique position of the CIA (too much power)--but I also think more culpability lies at the top anyway.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. Well ..... Olbermann left us with little more to discuss

The past is prelude.

Mr. Obama has made the easiest mistake a national leader can make - to think that "just following orders" is worthy of a pass.

[bdamomma]

30. but these practices are not worthy of a pass.

doesn't anyone else feel dirty and frustrated about this, we are all involved in these horrible practices, I just see Cheney chuckling away, I want to see justice done to these thugs, damn them all.

[madinmaryland]

26. I would suggest that these are some very calculated decisions by the Obama Administration.

He has released the paperwork from the Bush Admin which shows what they were doing. His next decision is politcal and the decision not to publicly go after these things. Unfortunately, politics do run this country. If he goes all out pursuing Bush criminalities may well ruin his administration.

I would not be surprised if a couple of years from now, there actually some interesting indictments announced by the JD.

just sayin.

[bdamomma]

32. or the bush thugs may ruin President Obama.......something to think about.

[marlakay]

29. That's how I feel, I think Obama is great but

I am very very very upset about this and think Keith is right.

[Laelth]

31. I can only assume ...

That we traded justice for the peaceful transfer of power. I suspect Bush made it very clear that he would declare martial law and invalidate the 2008 election if Obama did not give his administration immunity from prosecution.

This sux, and I am not happy about it, but the peaceful transfer of power is, ultimately, probably worth it.

:dem:

-Laelth

[bdamomma]

33. all this stuff makes me just shake my head.

[Stinky The Clown]

34. That's sort of impossible

Think of Charlie, Lucy, and the football.

Bush sez tee it up. Obama sez okay. Bush leaves office. Bush tries to kick it and falls on his ass.

[madinmaryland]

38. ??

:tinfoilhat:

:wtf: are you talking about.

[Kaleva]

36. MacArthur made the Imperial family off limits to prosecution

for war crimes. This wasn't fair to the millions of victims of Japanese war crimes nor was it fair for those Japanese who were imprisoned or executed. It was done for political reasons for a docile, friendly Emperor greatly increased the chances the Japanese population would tolerate the occupation.

[bemildred]

37. Nuremberg did not occur until the war was over.

Right now, the war is not over.

[Stinky The Clown]

39. What war is that?

We have so many.

[HopeOverFear]

40. Let Cheney Yoo and 'em think they got away with it

don't ANNOUNCE you're going to prosecute immediately, so they can skip the country. Damn, don't ya'll watch Law & Order? LOL

[notesdev]

41. It's perfectly in line

with the failure to persecute financial fraud.


Welcome to America, the land of the free getting away with it.

[rateyes]

42. You may get a respectful discussion, but those who refuse to prosecute

war crimes get NO fucking respect from me. NONE.