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Boondog Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:06 PM
Original message
Read 'em and weep for humanity
In response to a 5 year old Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by the ACLU, today the US Department of Justice released four memos generated during the Bush years by US DOJ Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) attorneys. The OLC is a component of the Justice Department created to provide “objective” legal advice to the AG and to resolve legal disputes among federal agencies. Each of these memos was directed to the attention of John A. Rizzo, Senior Deputy General Counsel, Central Intelligence Agency, and provided “legal opinions” regarding a few questions he had.

Here are the memos:

http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/clients/aclu/olc_08012002_bybee.pdf
August 1, 2002, Memorandum for John Rizzo, Acting General Counsel of the Central Intelligence Agency, Interrogation of al Qaeda Operative, by Jay S. Bybee

http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/clients/aclu/olc_05102005_bradbury46pg.pdf
May 10, 2005, Memorandum for John A. Rizzo, Senior Deputy General Counsel, Central Intelligence Agency, by Steven Bradbury

http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/clients/aclu/olc_05102005_bradbury_20pg.pdf
May 10, 2005, Memorandum for John A. Rizzo, Senior Deputy General Counsel, Central Intelligence Agency, by Steven Bradbury

http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/clients/aclu/olc_05302005_bradbury.pdf
May 30, 2005 Memorandum for John A. Rizzo, Senior Deputy General Counsel, Central Intelligence Agency, by Steven Bradbury

I’ve read parts of all of them and all I could stomach of the August 1, 2002 memo by the Honorable Jay S. Bybee (now a Bush appointed 9th Circuit Court of Appeals Judge). I was on the verge of retching, not so much because of the graphic content of the memos, but because of the macabre torture of the rule of law set forth in every sterile sentence of these redacted memos. They are, quite simply, red hot insanity.

The August 2002 memo was written in response to questions from Rizzo about 10 techniques used on Abu Zubaydah. In short, Bybee lays out the questions from Rizzo, describes the 10 techniques, and then decides that none of them constitutes torture. If the subject weren’t so tragic, parts of the memo would be hilarious. Lucky for them that no judge had to decide whether the memo was an accurate statement of the law. Whoops, the author is now a federal judge.

Here’s one of the questions asked by Mr. Rizzo, as framed by Bybee:

"You would like to place Zubaydah in a cramped confinement box with an insect. You have informed us that he appears to have a fear of insects. In particular you would like to tell Zubaydah that you intend to place a stinging insect into the box with him. You would, however, place a harmless insect in the box. You have orally informed us that you would in fact place a harmless insect such as a caterpillar in the box with him."

Oh for Pete’s sake.

Here’s a tidbit describing the relatively innocuous (unless you are receiving it) technique (4), the “facial slap (insult slap):”

"the interrogator slaps the individual’s face with fingers slightly spread. The hand makes contact with the area directly between the tip of the individual’s chin and the bottom of the corresponding earlobe. The interrogator invades the individual’s personal space. The goal of the facial slap is not to inflict physical pain that is severe or lasting. Instead, the purpose of the facial slap is to induce shock, surprise, and/or humiliation."

In Bybee’s justification of the “facial slap” later on, he says "the slap is delivered with fingers slightly spread, which you have explained to us is designed to be less painful than a closed-hand slap. The slap is also delivered to the fleshy part of the face, further reducing any risk of physical damage or serious pain."

I think that sounds like plenty of justification to remove an open fingered facial slap delivered to the fleshy part of the face (directly between the tip of the individual’s chin and the bottom of the corresponding earlobe) from the definition of assault. Who knew the well-delivered “facial slap” was so innocuous? It could become the new high five, or “terrorist fist bump.”

And, of course, on waterboarding,

"The individual is bound securely to an inclined bench, which is approximately four feet by seven feet. The individual’s feet are generally elevated. A cloth is placed over the forehead and eyes. Water is then applied to the cloth in a controlled manner. As this is done, the cloth is lowered until it covers both the nose and mouth. Once the cloth is saturated and completely covers the mouth and nose, air flow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds due to the presence of the cloth. This causes an increase in carbon dioxide level in the individual’s blood. This increase in the carbon dioxide level stimulates increased efforts to breathe. This effort plus the cloth produces the perception of “suffocation and incipient panic,” i.e., the perception of drowning. The individual does not breathe any water into his lungs. During those 20 to 40 seconds, water is continuously applied from a height of twelve to twenty-four inches. After this period, the cloth is lifted, and the individual is allowed to breathe unimpeded for three or four full breaths. The sensation of drowning is immediately relieved by the removal of the cloth. The procedure may then be repeated. The water is usually applied from a canteen cup or small watering can with a spout. You have orally informed us that this procedure triggers an automatic physiological sensation of drowning that the individual cannot control even though he may be aware that he is in fact not drowning. You have also orally informed us that it is likely that this procedure would not last more than 20 minutes in any one application."

Section 2340A of the United States Code makes it a criminal offense for any person outside of the United States to commit or attempt to commit torture. Section 2340(1) defines torture as: “an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control.” 18 U.S.C. § 2340(1).

How does Bybee escape this statute through his eminent legal skills?

He starts with a big section on how, of all the people SERE trained, their experience of some of these techniques didn’t result in “adverse mental health effects,” except for that one person who started shoplifting and another who downloaded internet porn on government computers…. No joke. And the few thousand who washed out early because of adverse mental health effects…

Bybee then goes through each of the ten techniques considered in the memo, and determines that none of them results in “severe physical or mental pain or suffering.”

On waterboarding, "Although the subject may experience the fear or panic associated with the feeling of drowning, the waterboard does not inflict physical pain…. The waterboard, which inflicts no pain or actual harm whatsoever, does not, in our view inflict “severe pain or suffering. . . the waterboard could not be said to inflict severe suffering. The waterboard is simply a controlled acute episode, lacking the connotation of a protracted period of time generally given to suffering."

So being repeatedly and actually suffocated to within an inch of your life for 20 minutes does not constitute suffering. Nor does being subjected to this over, and over, day after day, constitute suffering. Therefore it does not constitute torture. No shit, that’s what it says.

On the severe mental suffering end of the statute, while Bybee admits that “the waterboard constitutes a threat of imminent death, prolonged mental harm must nonetheless result to violate the statutory prohibition on infliction of severe mental pain or suffering.” Equating the stress of waterboarding with “the stress experienced in, for example, an interrogation by state police” that surely does not cause “prolonged mental harm,” Bybee concludes that “the use of this procedure would not constitute torture within the meaning of the statute.”

Doesn’t it seem a bit arcane, bizarre, baroque, etc. that they came up with this recipe for waterboarding? Why all the mess and muss to suffocate someone repeatedly? They could use a pillow, or a noose, or duct tape and a clothes pin even. Sorry, three new techniques to write memos about.

Reading these memos was torture to me, and I may sue Bybee, Bradbury, Yoo and the rest of them for the prolonged mental harm this will probably cause me. What really makes me sick, what tortures me about this, is the massive complicity of so many members of the US government (“public servants”) in taking torture from medieval dungeons to present day practice. There weren’t just lawyers involved in this. There were the psychological professionals that signed off on it, there were the CIA personnel involved in asking the questions in the first place and then carrying out the procedures in the field, there were the members of Congress with supposed oversight over these practices that turned a blind eye, there were the complicit members of the media who “catapulted the propaganda” into public acceptance, and there were, of course, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, Gonzales, Ashcroft, Yoo, Libby, and on, and on, and on.

As you know, this wonderful gift of the Bush Administration that keeps on giving has placed the Obama administration in a most difficult position, one of the most difficult I can recall an American President ever facing. Today, the DoJ announced that there will be no prosecutions of CIA personnel who carried out this activity. It remains to be seen, but this announcement could be twisted by Bush, et al. as a closing of the circle precluding any possibility of prosecuting them, or the lawyers, or anyone else for this behavior, at least in the US. As I described previously at http://www.leftinthewest.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=2843, the argument against prosecuting the lawyers will be something like: "one problem with this is that the Obama administration seems intent on dragging its feet and not conducting an investigation into criminal conduct. So can we justifiably disbar someone for 'criminal conduct' when the conduct has not been adjudicated to be criminal yet?

UPDATE (as I actually force myself to read these memos): The CIA had to come back with more questions on waterboarding (and 11 other techniques), based on lots of experience, as evidenced by the May 10, 2005 memo authored by Bradbury:

"We understand that if the detainee makes an effort to defeat the technique (e.g., by twisting his head to the side and breathing out of the corner of his mouth), the interrogator may cup his hands around the detainee’s nose and mouth to dam the runoff, in which case it would not be possible for the detainee to breathe during the application of the water. In addition, you have informed us that the technique may be applied in a manner to defeat efforts by the detainee to hold his breath by, for example, beginning an application of water as the detainee is exhaling. Either in the normal application, or where countermeasures are used, we understand that water may enter - and may accumulate in - the detainee’s mouth and nasal cavity, preventing him from breathing. In addition, you have indicated that the detainee as a countermeasure may swallow water, possibly in significant quantities. For that reason, based on advice of medical personnel, the CIA requires that saline solution be used instead of plain water to reduce the possibility of hyponatremia (I.e., reduced concentration of sodium in the blood) if the detainee drinks the water."

Good god.

"We are informed that, based on extensive experience, the process is not physically painful, but that it usually does cause fear and panic. The waterboard has been used many thousands of times in SERE training provided to American military personnel, though in that context it is usually limited to one or two applications of no more than 40 seconds each."

What about 30 or 40 times over 20 minutes? Any physical pain from that? What about pumping saline into a detainee for days and days on end, any irritation or pain from that? How many SERE candidates were waterboarded 100 times in two weeks like Khalid Sheik Mohammed?

Pick a memo, randomly pick a page, randomly pick a paragraph, and you get the same atrocity, over and over again.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. And all in dry, bureaucratese.
The banality of evil.

I couldn't read it all.
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Boondog Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I haven't done that yet either
It's easy reading, but so very hard, hard, hard. I'm a lawyer, and so ashamed I can hardly breathe.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. It's appalling.
Im a lawyer, too (retired), and I just can't imagine a lawyer who wasn't criminally insane coming up with those memos. How can Bybee sleep at night?
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. My God
what have they done.
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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. I can't even read this pornography, but will force myself.
Edited on Thu Apr-16-09 08:16 PM by liberalmuse
How are we better than the Nazi's again? This comes short of a 'How to make a lampshade or book jacket from human skin' manual. I've read 3 paragraphs and I'm ready to puke my guts out with anger and hatred towards the Bush cabal and all the Americans who cheered on this shit. I'm filled with disgust, horror and profound sadness. You know how you tell the good people from the shit? My mom, who is a fundie and used to be an avid Bush lover turned from the Republican party when she heard about the torture 3 or 4 years ago. That did it. My sister and I argued with her for years why Bush was so heinous, but it took torture to wake her up and she voted Democrat for the first time in 30 years in November. I have a lot of issues with my mom, but I know underneath it all, she is a good, decent human being. I shudder to think of the people who will read this and shrug their shoulders. "Meh." Oh. My. God.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. This stuff needs to be plastered..
everywhere. There needs to be a united, concerted effort to pressure Obama and the Congress to act. It's beyond a piddly little investigation. I remember years ago wondering why the Germans didn't do anything to stop the massacre of the Jews. I now know.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. K&R
Thank you!
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Boondog Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Thank you for all your thoughtful opinions on this forum
I'm getting to the crying stage of shock now. Gotta go.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I understand.
I really do understand. :(
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I also understand and am so angry right now I just don't know what to do
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. Oh dear God..please let those memos be Exhibit A, soon. Very very soon.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. All of them
Bybee, Bradbury, Yoo, Gonzales et al should be disbared for starters. Bybee should be impeached and they all should be tried for war crimes with Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, Rice et al.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. let's see if the rest of the world is willing to 'look forward'
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Boondog Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Looking forward means looking right into the teeth of this
I'm not telling you anything, of course. I hope this isn't something asked of the next generation, we (and our predecessors) have already loaded their plates too much.

Cut and pasted from another entry...

The prosecution of lawyers for rendering legal advice enabling war crimes under international law and treaties is not unprecedented. Motivated by the high level of casualties the Germans were suffering on the Russian front, the Nacht - Und Nebelerlass (Night and Fog Decree) was crafted by German Department of Justice lawyers to authorize particularized rules setting out how detainees were to be treated by police, justice officials and others. Pursuant to legal opinions obtained from his lawyers, Hitler instructed Field Marshall Keitel to issue a special decree authorizing extraordinary measures pursuant to which political suspects would simply "disappear" to special detention facilities and might face summary court proceedings. The rules specified how such individuals would be permitted to make wills, issue final letters of farewell, what would be done with children born to detainees and how their death could be recorded in the registry. Other lawyers prepared parallel orders creating special secret courts and detention facilities for those interned under the Nacht- und Nebelerlass. These courts were crafted under domestic German law and thus constituted a projection of German law into the occupied territories. Thousands of people died under these "policies."

But there were also legal heroes in Nazi Germany. Helmuth von Moltke was a man whose example serves as a model for all, a person who represents the ethical pinnacle of the legal profession. And he did it from within the Third Reich as a staff lawyer at the German defense ministry during the Second World War. His tenacious advocacy of the Geneva and Hague Conventions in the face of withering criticism and suspicion from the Nazi hierarchy saved the lives of thousands of civilians and prisoners, particularly on the Eastern Front and in the Balkans. It also led inextricably to his execution at the hands of the Nazis in 1945.

Here's to Helmuth von Moltke.
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SurfingScientist Donating Member (237 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
14. OMG.
Really sick to my stomach now. And I have worked in emergency response and can stomach a lot.

I want these fuckers to rot in jail.
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MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
15. I just told my husband that the next time someone tries to tell me
that humans are cute and fluffy and innocent like kittens and that I'm wrong to think that some humans are fucking evil, I would be terribly tempted to punch them.

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
16. I am adding links to the first torture memos that were released so that we have them...
all together and can see how sequentially they perpetrated this horror and their increasingly bizzare manner of defending it:



Yoo's memo on Avoiding the Geneva Convention January 9, 2002

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB127/02.01.09.pdf


Gonzales memo to Bush January 26, 2002

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB127/02.01.25.pdf


Powell's Memo to White House January 25, 2002

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB127/02.01.26.pdf


Taft Memo on Rejection of Geneva Conventions Feb 2, 2002

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/politics/20040608_DOC.pdf


Bush Directive on the Treatment of Detainees Feb 7, 2002

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB127/02.02.07.pdf

Bybee Memo to Alberto Gonzales August 1, 2002

http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/nytimes/docs/doj/bybee80102mem.pdf

April Memo from Donald Rumsfeld on Interrogation Techniques

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB127/03.04.16.pdf

I found these links collected on this New York Times link:

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/international/24MEMO-GUIDE.html?_r=1


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Boondog Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Yes
Regardless of the indoctrination of a law school education and perpetuation of the myth that we must have intermediaries between us and the law (priests of the law), that the law is too esoteric for lay people to comprehend, it is not so. All should be encouraged to read the memos, exercise their own judgment, and trust their feelings about this. And this record needs to be consolidated, read, examined, and discussed, ad infinitum (so to speak).
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Absolutely! When the full body of evidence is collected, the record is clear,....
the as yet unreleased torture photos being part of that record, depicting the consequences of those who authorized the illegal acts.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. Reading this is like looking into the abyss.
The psychotic pretense of not intending to "inflict severe pain or suffering" is indicative of a mental dysfunction I can't begin to describe. What the FUCK other "intention" could there be to compel a human being to violate their own deepest principles than to impose upon them such a horror?

The starkly dehumanizing prose reminds me of the "Final Solution" and comparable hyper-rationalizations in the Third Reich.

Sociopathic pieces of shit! :grr:
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Boondog Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. Using their prose, I wonder if
There are any doctors out there that can testify to the fact the the "perception of suffocating" due to the "increase in carbon dioxide level in the individual's blood" caused by placing a cloth in such a manner that it is "saturated and completely covers the mouth and nose" resulting in restriction of the air flow, however "slight" it might be characterized by this attorney is, in fact, actual suffocating?
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
19. didn't we prosecute japanese officers for waterboarding after ww2...?
as a nation- we deserve whatever is coming down the pike.
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Boondog Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Yes, and the lawyers
of the Third Reich who set up Nacht - Und Nebelerlass (Night and Fog Decree) German Department of Justice lawyers to authorize particularized rules setting out how detainees were to be treated by police, justice officials and others. http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/alstoetter.htm#U.S.A.%20v.%20ALSTOETTER%20ET%20AL%20%28The%20Justice%20Cases%29:
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
21. Great post
A good one to bookmark...links to ALL memos are now in this one thread.

This has been a very sad day to be an American.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
24. kick
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
26. Kick
eom
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
27. Sick stuff. Sick leadership, sick world.
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 03:25 AM
Response to Original message
28. Kick Again
eom
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
29. kr
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
30. Kick Again
eom
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
31. i've read most of the 18-page one
and scanned the second one. i'm horrified and sickened. who are these people?!
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
32. these memos
fully validate the claims made by the detainees in the red cross report. http://www.nybooks.com/icrc-report.pdf

either way, tough reading. they should and must be read by everyone for the sake of justice.
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babydollhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
33. kick
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
34. In my name this was done.
I am deeply saddened.

-Laelth
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
35. to me, the only reason to torture is to send a message beyond the chamber
to me it's always aimed at us, the spectators, b/c you've basically written off the subject. you can never trust anything they say ever again. it radicalizes the population they're trying to control. it's stupid AND it's evil.
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Boondog Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Agree
It's quite a development, to say the least, that in the post-9/11 executive branch power grab, this had to be brought forward enough that they had to have attorneys write about it to cover peoples' asses. I would think that generating any type of paperwork of this sort is abhorrent to the CIA, but Bush et al. were already starting to feel the need to have some documentary cover, never dreaming they would become public, except as a last resort.

I agree that this has never been about getting evidence or good intelligence. Media and propagandists did a highly effetive job of convincing a large segment of the US public that torture was necessary to their immediate safety. They in effect convinced a lot of people that taking poison is good for you. But of course centuries of indisputable evidence and experience have shown that people say anything to make the pain stop and that obtaining evidence by torture will produce the most unreliable information. That's why it's not (supposed to be) admissible in court, and why it is in fact completely counterproductive to obtaining reliable, actionable intelligence, and one of the many reasons why it makes "us" less safe. But it's an extremely effective tool for the promulgation of and practice of terrorizing a population and concentrating wealth through economic subjugation.

Rodolfo Walsh said "extreme violence has a way of preventing us from seeing the interests it serves." I've thought of that quote, and his letter, often lately.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-18-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #36
50. "extreme violence has a way of preventing us from seeing the interests it serves."
wow -- indeed.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
37. kR
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
38. There is a name for what you've been reading in those memos...
"Compassionate Conservatism"
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
39. So where are the torches?
What are we doing about this?
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
40. K & R
:kick:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
41. And Obama is going to do nothing about this shit-am I understanding this correctly?
Edited on Fri Apr-17-09 02:47 PM by earth mom
:wtf:

OMFG! I can't read this shit! :cry:
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Boondog Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. The story is far from over
My intention in writing this was to criticize the authors of these memos, the administration from which they originated, and the persons who carried out these atrocities.

In these most difficult times, the fact that they were released at all is extraordinary. It took great courage for the Obama admin to support the rule of law and release memos likely to be incendiary on a global scale.

I also would never ask President Obama to martyr himself for any cause.

President Obama can't do this on his own. Given the totality of the atrocities promulgated in the name of the US over the last 8 years, I can think of very few US presidents who have faced such difficult situations. Lincoln, of course, and a few others. We elected President Obama and put him in this most difficult position. We are responsible for putting him there. It is unfair to the highest degree for me to expect him to do this on his own, and bear the terrifying consequences of such exposure.

As with all efforts of government, and this administration in particular (economy, wars, health care, global warming), it is essential that we bear the responsibility for addressing these issues through our education, activism, and engagement in the process of government. Call your representatives in Congress, as a start. Congress can unilaterally investigate these crimes. It doesn't have to be just the President standing out there alone. I didn't vote for him in order that he just become a target, and I tried not to deceive myself that one person, regardless of how extraordinary, can right the wrongs of the Bush administration on their own.

Though I have not agreed with several decisions of the Obama administration, again today I am reminded of the relief and joy I have felt on so many occasions during the past 3 short months reading headlines that never ever could have happened during the last 8 years.

To wit: EPA finds greenhouse gases pose a danger to health
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090417/ap_on_go_ot/epa_climate;_ylt=AhqyPjXHVENJm0NNQ4VZKzR34T0D

I intend to assist this President when asked, support him during tough times, constructively criticize decisions I disagree with, hope for his safety at all times, and I do not intend to fall prey to despair, though I understand and sypathize with the frustration and despair this situation has caused.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Obama would not stand alone in this, of that I'm sure. The majority of people would be behind him.
One thing that comes to mind is that U.S. soldiers put their lives on the line every damn day.

How is it fair or just for Obama not to do the same when faced with a situation this important?

Other presidents have put themselves on the line to do the right thing in the past.

Obama should do the same if he really gives a damn.

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Boondog Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. I agree with each of these statements
and answer your question that it would not be fair. There hasn't been a lot of fairness for US soldiers for quite some time now. I add that I think Obama puts his life on the line every time he shows his face in public these hard days. He's got courage.

Holder's statement about not prosecuting the CIA operatives who carried out torture is one of those for which I reserved my right to disagree. I intend to critically support my disagreement with that decision and continue to advocate for adherence to the rule of law.

Releasing these memos was not just a spoonful of sugar for the bad medicine of Holder's statement, in my opinion. It was highly significant. I look around the internet and this site at all the discussion, revulsion, praise, and criticism it has engendered. It could be viewed in retrospect as a significant step down this tremendously difficult road of prosecuting our own citizens for war crimes.

Some problems the Bush administration left us are so big their resolution may only be accomplished, if at all, by efforts that span a generation or more. Losing 8 critical years on global warming, and a legally elected president in 2000 who most definitely would have taken significant steps to change US policy towards sustainability is one. A genocidal war started under false pretences, and the atrocious crimes committed therein, of course, is another.
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
42. Humanity? Pssshaw
What really matters is getting Obama re-elected. It's official to me-the left is more digusting than the right. At least the right believes toture works-we know it's wrong and give it a pass. Morally the Democratic party is bankrupt.
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scisyhp1 Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
44. Apparently, the only mistake the nazi torturers made, which caused
them all that trouble in Nuremberg trials, was not getting a bunch of legal
memos from their nazi lawyers explaining how it was all legal to torture and kill
people. If they only did that, nobody would even charge them with any crimes.
All the future torturers are paying attention.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
47. read these and understand ..homicide was also committed in our names ..as well as rape!
from my files..and Please save the bullshit if you want to excuse anyone getting a free ride in these crimes against humanity..i don't want to fucking hear it!! Everyone that committed Torture broke the fucking laws of this nation and each and every single one of them must be held accountable to our justice system..if not we are nothing but a fucking third world corrupt nation!

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6988054/

Reports detail Abu Ghraib prison death; was it torture?
By Seth Hettena

updated 4:57 p.m. ET, Thurs., Feb. 17, 2005
Iraqi had been suspended by his handcuffed wrists, guards tell investigators
SAN DIEGO - An Iraqi whose corpse was photographed with grinning U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib died under CIA interrogation while in a position condemned by human rights groups as torture — suspended by his wrists, with his hands cuffed behind his back, according to reports reviewed by The Associated Press.

The death of the prisoner, Manadel al-Jamadi, became known last year when the Abu Ghraib scandal broke. The U.S. military said back then that it had been ruled a homicide. But the exact circumstances of the death were not disclosed at the time.

The prisoner died in a position known as “Palestinian hanging,” the documents reviewed by The AP show. It is unclear whether that position was approved by the Bush administration for use in CIA interrogations.


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
America admits suspects died in interrogations

By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles


Friday, 7 March 2003

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/america-admits-suspects-died-in-interrogations-599744.html


American military officials acknowledged yesterday that two prisoners captured in Afghanistan in December had been killed while under interrogation at Bagram air base north of Kabul – reviving concerns that the US is resorting to torture in its treatment of Taliban fighters and suspected al-Qa'ida operatives.


American military officials acknowledged yesterday that two prisoners captured in Afghanistan in December had been killed while under interrogation at Bagram air base north of Kabul – reviving concerns that the US is resorting to torture in its treatment of Taliban fighters and suspected al-Qa'ida operatives.

A spokesman for the air base confirmed that the official cause of death of the two men was "homicide", contradicting earlier accounts that one had died of a heart attack and the other from a pulmonary embolism.

The men's death certificates, made public earlier this week, showed that one captive, known only as Dilawar, 22, from the Khost region, died from "blunt force injuries to lower extremities complicating coronary artery disease" while another captive, Mullah Habibullah, 30, suffered from blood clot in the lung that was exacerbated by a "blunt force injury".

US officials previously admitted using "stress and duress" on prisoners including sleep deprivation, denial of medication for battle injuries, forcing them to stand or kneel for hours on end with hoods on, subjecting them to loud noises and sudden flashes of light and engaging in culturally humiliating practices such as having them kicked by female officers.

While the US claims this still constitutes "humane" treatment, human rights groups including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have denounced it as torture as defined by international treaty. The US has also come under heavy criticism for its reported policy of handing suspects over to countries such as Jordan, Egypt or Morocco, where torture techniques are an established part of the security apparatus. Legally, Human Rights Watch says, there is no distinction between using torture directly and subcontracting it out.







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http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/17/the-cia-ig-report-and-the-bradbury-memos/#more-3952


The CIA IG Report and the Bradbury Memos
By: emptywheel Friday April 17, 2009 12:08 pm

In May 2004, CIA's Inspector General, John Helgerson, completed a report that found that the CIA's interrogation program violated the Convention Against Torture. By understanding the role of that report in the May 2005 Bradbury memos, we see just how weak Bradbury's memos are.

As Jane Mayer described, the report strongly influenced Jack Goldsmith shortly before he withdrew the August 1, 2002 Bybee memo in June 2004.

The 2004 Inspector General's report, known as a "special review," was tens of thousands of pages long and as thick as two Manhattan phone books. It contained information, according to one source, that was simply "sickening." The behavior it described, another knowledgeable source said, raised concerns not just about the detainees but also about the Americans who had inflicted the abuse, one of whom seemed to have become frighteningly dehumanized. The source said, "You couldn't read the documents without wondering, "Why didn't someone say, 'Stop!'"

Goldsmith was required to review the report in order to settle a sharp dispute that its findings had provoked between the Inspector General, Helgerson, who was not a lawyer, and the CIA's General Counsel, Scott Muller, who was. After spending months investigating the Agency's interrogation practices, the special review had concluded that the CIA's techniques constituted cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment, in violation of the international Convention Against Torture. But Muller insisted that every single action taken by the CIA toward its detainees had been declared legal by John Yoo. With Yoo gone, it fell to Goldsmith to figure out exactly what the OLC had given the CIA a green light to do and what, in fact, the CIA had done.

As Goldsmith absorbed the details, the report transformed the antiseptic list of authorized interrogation techniques, which he had previously seen, into a Technicolor horror show. Goldsmith declined to be interviewed about the classified report for legal reasons, but according to those who dealt with him, the report caused him to question the whole program. The CIA interrogations seemed very different when described by participants than they had when approved on a simple menu of options. Goldsmith had been comfortable with the military's approach, but he wasn't at all sure whether the CIA's tactics were legal. Waterboarding, in particular, sounded quick and relatively harmless in theory. But according to someone familiar with the report, the way it had been actually used was "horrible."


snip::
Yet in arguing against the IG Report, Bradbury reveals much of what the IG Report finds so problematic. It reveals:

CIA interrogators were not performing waterboarding as it had been approved in the August 2002 Bybee Memo; in particular, they were repeating the process more frequently (83 times for AZ and 183 for KSM) and using much more water than described in the Bybee Memo
By CIA's own admission, they used waterboarding with Abu Zubaydah at a time when he was already completely compliant with interrogators
No "objective" doctors had been involved in the interrogation sessions (the CIA subsequently added them to its program)
It appears that after the CIA integrated doctors into the program, they lowered, by three and a half days, the length of time a detainee could be kept awake
In other words, the Bradbury memos basically prove that waterboarding, as practiced by the CIA (as distinct from how they were describing it), was out of control in several ways (and therefore probably illegal even according to Yoo's descriptions). They also suggest that the CIA recognized they were using sleep deprivation far more than was safe, even according to their own complicit doctors. Both of the most problematic aspect of the CIA program, the Bradbury memos suggest, had been deemed unsafe as practiced.
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ccharles000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
48. kick
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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-18-09 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
49. A lot of this torture was done by contractors.
Further muddying the legal waters for the Obama Administration. I am not really surprised at any of this, though to see it in it's gory detail is stomach churning. I can't see there being no prosecutions for this.

I also really don't understand why Democrats are so afraid of touching this, at least they appear to be to me. How can a war-crime/torture prosecution turn on you?

What are repukes going to do, defend breaking the Geneva Conventions in public? They would be political mincemeat. It's no wonder they fought to have these memos kept secret. Imagine what we haven't seen?

I don't think anyone thought this was going to be easy.
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