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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:16 PM
Original message
Medical personnel watching as pain is inflicted....a Rumsfeld legacy?
Last week the Red Cross revealed that doctors were present at CIA interrogations involving torture.

LISA MILLAR: The Red Cross has slammed medical personnel who allegedly supervised interrogations and the torture of terror suspects by the CIA. Based on interviews with 14 terror suspects, the Red Cross has found medics monitored prisoners' vital signs to make sure they didn't drown during waterboarding. And it says that may amount to direct participation in torture.

EMILY BOURKE: The individual testimonies of 14 so-called 'high value' terror suspects detail a litany of torture techniques used during interrogations at secret locations and at Guantanamo Bay. They describe confinement in a box, exposure to extreme cold, sleep deprivation and waterboarding. But the Red Cross also found health professionals gave instructions to CIA interrogators to continue, adjust, or to stop particular methods.


We already knew this. It had been discussed all along since we invaded and occupied Iraq. In 2004 the New England Journal of Medicine published a report about it.

There is increasing evidence that U.S. doctors, nurses, and medics have been complicit in torture and other illegal procedures in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo Bay. Such medical complicity suggests still another disturbing dimension of this broadening scandal.

We know that medical personnel have failed to report to higher authorities wounds that were clearly caused by torture and that they have neglected to take steps to interrupt this torture. In addition, they have turned over prisoners' medical records to interrogators who could use them to exploit the prisoners' weaknesses or vulnerabilities. We have not yet learned the extent of medical involvement in delaying and possibly falsifying the death certificates of prisoners who have been killed by torturers.


So we knew. We have known. I had forgotten this article in Time Magazine by Andrew Sullivan in 2006. He assigns blame for this policy to Donald Rumsfeld.

How Doctors Got Into the Torture Business

Soldiers are trained to kill and doctors to heal. At least that's how we usually understand those two professions. But wars can often distort reality, and the war on terrorism has turned into a test case. An inspiring example is that of Colonel Kelly Faucette, M.D. He recently wrote about caring for a new patient at the intensive-care unit of the 47th Combat Support Hospital in Mosul, Iraq. The patient was a terrorist insurgent, a man who planted hidden roadside bombs to murder civilians and Faucette's fellow soldiers. Faucette wrote in his local paper: "Something inside me wants to walk up to this guy ... and just clobber him." But Faucette didn't. Instead he healed him before sending him to a jail, and by that act of healing he helped heal Iraq.

That's the America I know and love. But it is not, alas, the only face of America in this war. One of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's first instructions for military interrogations outside the Geneva Conventions was that military doctors should be involved in monitoring torture. It was a fateful decision — and we learn much more about its consequences in a new book based on 35,000 pages of government documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. The book is called Oath Betrayed (to be published June 27) by medical ethicist Dr. Stephen Miles, and it is a harrowing documentation of how the military medical profession has been corrupted by the Bush-Rumsfeld interrogation rules.


So we knew. We have known. Looks like Rumsfeld will not be forced to accept the consequences of such instructions.

Actually we knew things were wrong in 2003, but it took a Norwegian paper to clue us in about it. When we called our congressional leaders, they were in denial. But they knew.

We saw pictures from Iraq from a paper in Norway in 2003

One of the pictures is at the link.

Amnesty International expressed concern today at the disturbing article and images portrayed in the Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet which show American soldiers escorting naked Iraqi men through a park in Baghdad. The pictures reveal that someone has written the words ‘Ali Baba - Haram(i)’ (which means Ali Baba - thief) in Arabic on the prisoners’ chests.

The article quotes a US military officer as saying that this treatment is an effective method of deterring thieves from entering the park and is a method which will be used again; another US military officer is quoted as saying that US soldiers are not allowed to treat prisoners inhumanely.

..."“Whatever the reason for their detention, these men must at all times be treated humanely. The US authorities must investigate this incident and publicly release their findings.”


It does not in this case mention doctors, but we knew we were humiliating the people whose country we invaded and occupied.

Things like using the infliction of pain to instill fear and to punish, carry right on down the line in our culture. There was a nurse just standing by as 8 very big guards were using pain compliance techniques on a 14 year old boy, including beating him. The nurse just stood there. They were all found innocent of any charges.

A travesty of justice in Bay County, Florida.

PANAMA CITY | A juvenile boot camp nurse charged with killing a 14-year-old boy testified Tuesday that her job did not routinely require her to interfere with the actions of the guards.

Kristin Schmidt said she was only to interfere with the guards, "If I saw something that would cause an injury."


Lady, he died. You should have interfered.

When people who torture do so with impunity, a whole country pays the price with a collective loss of conscience. It was done in our name, and we should demand that in our name they pay the price for doing it.




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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. This kind of stuff . . .
. . . shames us all.

K&R
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I already see some defense of it here at DU in the name of security.
It does not surprise me, it just saddens me how far down the line we have come.

:shrug:
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Sadly
Too many of our fellow countrymen feel that in the name of security it was ok to torture these people.
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kas125 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Not just countrymen, but people here. It's truly heartbreaking.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. I wonder if the medical profession will police their own about this topic.
Somehow I doubt it.

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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Do the lawyers?
I mean Gonzo is still a lawyer.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. 2007: Judge Dismisses Torture Lawsuit Against Rumsfeld
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17845/judge-dismisses-torture-lawsuit-against-rumsfeld

" Former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld cannot be tried on allegations of torture in overseas military prisons, a federal judge said Tuesday in a case he described as “lamentable.”

U.S. District Judge Thomas F. Hogan threw out a lawsuit brought on behalf of nine former prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan. He said Rumsfeld cannot be held personally responsible for actions taken in connection with his government job.

The lawsuit contends the prisoners were beaten, suspended upside down from the ceiling by chains, urinated on, shocked, sexually humiliated, burned, locked inside boxes and subjected to mock executions. Hogan appeared conflicted during arguments last year. On one hand, he said he was hesitant to allow allegations of torture to go unheard. On the other hand, he said the case was unprecedented.

“This is a lamentable case,” Hogan began his 58-page opinion Tuesday.

No matter how appealing it might seem to use the courts to correct allegations of severe abuses of power, Hogan wrote, government officials are immune from such lawsuits. Additionally, foreigners held overseas are not normally afforded U.S. constitutional rights.

“Despite the horrifying torture allegations,” Hogan said, he could find no case law supporting the lawsuit, which he previously had described as unprecedented. Allowing the case to go forward, Hogan said in December, might subject government officials to all sorts of political lawsuits. Even Osama bin Laden could sue, Hogan said, claiming two American presidents threatened to have him murdered."

Fear of lawsuits?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. So. What outrage are we entitled to the next time an American captive is treated in kind?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Very true.
And sad.
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kas125 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Asolutely none. Evidently, torture is a thing to be applauded
or at the very least, ignored, now.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
6. the russians used "punitive psychiatry"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psikhushka

we are not as creative.....
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Sullivan's article in TIme 2006 has some very awful stuff...
it amazes me how this has been ignored and allowed to go on.

Much of it is too awful to post, but he ends with this:

"After a while, you get numb reading these stories. They read like accounts of a South American dictatorship, not an American presidency. But we learn one thing: once you allow the torture of prisoners for any reason, as this President did, the cancer spreads. In the end it spreads to healers as well, and turns them into accomplices to harm."

And that is truly a danger in all this.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
9. K&R
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
10. K&R
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
13. How quickly we forget. Another Time Mag story about The Ice Man
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
15. These "doctors" need to be banned from the profession.
"First, do no harm"
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
16. K&R
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
17. OLC Memos Confirm Integral Role of Health Professionals in US Torture
http://www.prweb.com/releases/human_rights/torture/prweb2334464.htm

"Cambridge, MA (Vocus/PRWEB ) April 17, 2009 -- The newly released Bush Administration's Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) memos are detailed confirmation of the intimate involvement of health professionals in designing, supervising and implementing the CIA's "enhanced" interrogation program. According to analysis by Physicians for Human Rights, tactics used by psychologists and supervised by medical personnel, including physicians, clearly constituted torture and a grave breach of medical ethics. The memos specifically reference psychologists from the SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) training program, medical experts, and consultations "with outside psychologists" and "with a number of mental health experts."

"The health professionals involved in the CIA program broke the law and shame the bedrock ethical traditions of medicine and psychology," stated Frank Donaghue, Chief Executive Officer of PHR. "All psychologists and physicians found to be involved in the torture of detainees must lose their license and never be allowed to practice again."

Physicians for Human Rights (PHR), in collaboration with Human Rights First, published a 2007 study, Leave No Marks: Enhanced Interrogation Techiques and the Risk of Criminality, conclusively showing the illegality of, and long-term mental and physical harm caused by, these tactics.

"Strained legal rationalizations for torture techniques should provide no cover for health professionals who helped design and implement them," stated John Bradshaw, Washington Director of PHR. "The White House and Congress must work together to ensure public accountability for these crimes and violations of medical ethics."

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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
18. what ever happened to
"first, do no harm"? what part of that do the docs not understand??
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Bette Noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
19. I saw in the news last night, in the torture memos,
the justification that the continual presence of medical personnel indicated that there was no intent to torture. No, their presence indicated an unwillingness for torture to progress to murder.

We need to keep the pressure on Mr. Obama to appoint a prosecutor to look into these crimes. Torture is not a "policy difference," it's a war crime.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. You are right. There is no justification for doctors to be involved
in torture.

Bottom line. It is immoral to do it and immoral to watch as humans do this to each other.
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
22. Dr. Josep Mengele was overseeing the interrogations. Not to worry.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. His name came to mind, but I did not use him to compare. His experiments
were in some ways far worse, especially the twins'.

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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
23. So now we find our medical profession is not only greedy
it's sadistic - I've totally lost my faith in these over-paid SOB's. :mad:
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
25. No doubt the humanitarians at CIA issued them little flagpins for their doctor suits. K&R
What a pathetic lot they are who will rationalize the perversion of their profession.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
26. From 2006: Oath Betrayed
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5516533

"The result is his new book -- Oath Betrayed: Torture, Medical Complicity and the War on Terror, in which Miles -– who has treated victims of torture throughout the world -- indicts the medical profession for failing to perform its role as protector.

"Doctors and nurses are frontline human rights monitors," Miles says. "They are present in prisons that the Red Cross never gets to and they are there when other human rights monitors are not. And even if they don't see the abuses themselves, they see the signs of the abuses."

So why didn't the medical system blow the whistle at Abu Ghraib?

"The physicians' obligation in prison camps is to the health of the prisoners," Miles says. "Prisons are totally different from battlefields. These people are outside of combat. They are disarmed and captive, and in those circumstances, the medical system's first obligation is to the health of the captives."


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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
27. "If I saw something that would cause an injury." Nurse's words in boot camp death.
Think how ridiculous that this woman this nurse would say these words:

"PANAMA CITY | A juvenile boot camp nurse charged with killing a 14-year-old boy testified Tuesday that her job did not routinely require her to interfere with the actions of the guards.

Kristin Schmidt said she was only to interfere with the guards, "If I saw something that would cause an injury."

Like the doctors who watched and approved or disapproved torture methods, only stepping in to prevent death...she claimed she could only prevent injury. Those words ring hollow.

Anyone who saw the video should know those are hollow words.

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