"Like writing a memo that forced intercourse is not rape so long as you make it quick."

[Bluebear]

really need to be required reading for everyone. I think the line that probably sums them up best is on page 11 of the Bybee memo, where he casually observes that “he waterboard is simply a controlled acute episode, lacking the connotation of a protracted period of time generally given to suffering.”

With that wonderful bit of “analysis,” our government lawyers concluded that the most iconic example of torture in human history — a technique that dates back to the Spanish Inquisition, if not earlier — was not in fact torture. That’s like writing a memo concluding that forced sexual intercourse doesn’t constitute rape so long as you make it quick. - The Anonymous Liberal

====

he May 30, 2005 OLC memo signed by Steven Bradbury concluded that the relevant standard for determining when the CIA had crossed the line would be the Fifth Amendment’s prohibition of executive conduct that “shocks the conscience.” . . .

I don’t know about you, but the techniques described in these memos — repeated waterboarding (drowning); stress positions; slamming a prisoner’s head repeatedly against a wall by the collar; 180 hours straight of sleep deprivation while on a “calorie-restricted diet” and in shackles; and being locked in a tiny “confinement box” with insects crawling around — that shocks my conscience.

Anyone else? - Daphne Eviatar, Washington Independent

====

I do not believe that any American president has ever orchestrated, constructed or so closely monitored the torture of other human beings the way George W. Bush did. It is clear that it is pre-meditated; and it is clear that the parsing of torture techniques that you read in the report is a simply disgusting and repellent piece of dishonesty and bad faith. - Andrew Sullivan

====

These are medieval documents, these Office of Legal Counsel memos. And not just in the sense that torture techniques like the waterboard date back to medieval times, but in the way that the OLC acted for the CIA. These memos are basically colloquys between John Rizzo, then the acting CIA legal counsel and either Jay Bybee (in 2002) and Steve Bradbury (in 2005), the OLC chiefs, in which Rizzo asks OLC what the CIA can legally inflict on detainees. OLC, like a medieval priest, finds the right incantation to transform a dark act into a holy one. - Spencer Ackermann aty :The Attackerman"

====

KGB torture techniques are what the Bybee memo legalized — at the behest of retired CIA “psychologists.” And they recommended it over the objections of trained FBI interrogators and behavioral scientists in the CIA itself. Those were the experts he relied upon to assure him that Zubaydah was a seasoned terrorist warrior who could only be “broken” by using torture. ignored plenty of others who said otherwise.

We know now that the information that was gleaned from Zubaydah under torture was completely useless. That’s what that torture program is designed to do, after all — elicit false confessions. And it cost this country millions and millions of dollars and uselessly scared the hell out of people. - Digny at Hullabaloo

====

This is a time for reflection, not retribution. - President Obama

[democrank]

1. Forget reflection and

start prosecuting.

[aquart]

2. Can we have a standard for evaluating public servants?

If their conscience is NOT shocked by torture, THEY are unfit for office or any adjunct position in the government of the United States.

[omega minimo]

7. We do. Anybody know why impeachment was "off the table"?

:think:

[lunatica]

3. What reflection are we supposed to see? Are we looking in the mirror now?

Are we supposed to find our ugly mugs reflected back to us as some admission that we're no better than those who torture so, in essence, we should simply move on rather than demand accountility?

Oh please! No one is that naive! I don't know what President Obama is really doing when he says this 'looking forward' statement but he's being dishonest and he must know it. He's too damn smart to suddenly get all cagey and slippery. I do want to give him the benefit of the doubt, and maybe he's just taking himself out of the fray in the hopes that our other institutions and Congresspeople will take the lead and take the inevitable heat from the freaked out extreme Right. I like to think he's a decent man who will not cross certain lines no matter what. I want to think he does want the crimes investigated and prosecuted and that he's hoping it will happen in spite of what he says, or doesn't say.

[JuniperLea]

4. Obama plays a mean game of "Rope A Dope"

I'm hoping that his careful, slow, measured, and apparently aloof stance on this matter is just another nuance to this game. Same goes for the Patriot Act and all the bizarre things BushCo pushed through... maybe he needs those tools to do the job right.

It hasn't even been 100 days yet, and I can't think of another president who has done this much this soon. I'm willing to give it a little more time.

[mitchtv]

29. at what point can we speak up? 100 days?

None are so blind as those who will not see...

[omega minimo]

5. Why would you choose that title?

:eyes: :banghead:

[Bluebear]

9. What's your objection? And don't hit your head too hard.

[omega minimo]

10. Callous insensitivity, disrespect, disregard, let's see what else. Tone deafness. Arrogance.

[Bluebear]

11. What. for quoting something out of the article? What on earth is wrong with you today?

[omega minimo]

13. Using it as a title is offensive. As offensive as the quote. It sensationalizes and trivializes.

If you think of people scanning the Title Page, that is.

[dem629]

15. Of course you're offended. You're always looking to be offended.

Which is why your claims of being offended are empty now.

[omega minimo]

17. "If you think of people scanning the Title Page, that is."

I don't believe you

[dem629]

19. You don't believe me?

About what? That you're always looking for something to be offended and outraged about?

Of course you don't think that.

[omega minimo]

20. About anything

[dem629]

22. Oh, are you offended again?

Shocking.

[omega minimo]

23. Not at all. You have lost credibility. As for criticism, if it comes from the Dittohead Handbook, it

has no credibility.

[Bluebear]

16. Picking fights - - I've never seen anybody who enjoys this as much as you.

Why?

[omega minimo]

18. "If you think of people scanning the Title Page, that is."

Which you don't, apparently. If you would consider it now or next time, that's a constructive criticism.

Not picking a fight. I asked you why you chose it and you never answered.

Probably because it is sensational (my point) and if you think about it, even if you can't relate, jumping around on the titles page, it trivializes the offense you are highlighting.

Thank you for your consideration. :hi:

You're welcome for the kicks. :evilgrin:

[LostinVA]

21. Those are all the reasons I adore my big growly bear

[omega minimo]

24. Thank you, Ignored

:kick:

[yardwork]

28. What the fuck? Go be offended at the people in the Bush administration who did this.

Why are you attacking somebody who took the time to read an article and post it here so that others can be educated? What is your problem?

[Lex]

31. Is this a topic we should shove under the rug or something?

I think as heinous as it is, it needs to get out in the open. Thus the thread title.

[DearAbby]

6. And remember

it is your intention as you do this intercourse, if you mean no harm...then it's okay. No physical damage, you're scot-free!

[barbtries]

12. yep,

in these memos (disclaimer: I am not finished reading them) it appears that confinement is not considered a hardship. solitary confinement, forced nudity, shackles, made to wear diapers, having water thrown at one, being forced to listen to loud noise 24 hours a day, all of these circumstances are not even part of the discussion. as if solitary confinement, forced nudity, shackles, made to wear diapers, having water thrown at one, being forced to listen to loud noise 24 hours a day, all of these circumstances are all just part and parcel of being jailed.

i was jailed once for five days. the worst part of it was the strip search. i was handcuffed briefly, never shackled, did not have water thrown on me, was not forced to endure 24/7 earsplitting noise (oh, and bright lights on all the time), etc. etc. i was treated with contempt but then so were all the other people jailed with me, of which there were many. i came out of that experience with post traumatic stress that did not abate for a long time.

reading the memos, which i'm doing in short bursts of energy, chills my blood. it absolutely sickens me that this kind of sadistic behavior would be condoned by the highest levels of leadership in a supposedly "civilized" world. not just condoned, endorsed, with dry legalese that tries so fucking hard to wiggle away from the truth of what is going on. just, just fucking SICK shit.

[DearAbby]

26. Mentions having Medical attention nearby

if there is a doctor there watching this "forceful intercourse" and the intent to not do excessive harm is there...It's Okie dokie! I fee ever so much better...yesireee.

[barbtries]

8. No, President Obama

This is a time for justice, not cowardice.

[EFerrari]

14. Reagan did organize torture in a very similar way, in Southeast Asia,

in Central America and in North Africa, iirc.

And I think that Obama knows damn well what the other choice is besides reflection or retribution. My hope is that his admin is simply trying to defer it to a quieter time, which is understandable to a degree.

[mitchtv]

30. oh yeah , the "wiser than you think" excuse

won't work indefinitely

[Bluenorthwest]

25. Reflect away, Mr President

You will not be able to get Americans to feel they are the same as torturers. We do not all own these actions. We are not all monsters.

[Bluebear]

27. +1

[Stephanie]

32. Clue phone for Andew Sullivan - We've known for years that George Bush is a cunning sociopath

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/conover01.htm

December 5, 2002 — If any of us are to have a future worth having, the world's leaders, the members of Congress, the US corporate media and people of all political persuasions who value freedom and democracy had better start seeing George W. Bush for what he is: a sociopath and a passive serial killer.

Psychiatrists tell us that all serial killers lack the emotions that make us human; that they have to learn to emulate those emotions in order to get by in society. Hence, a charming, well educated fellow like Ted Bundy who is known to have murdered 15 women and may have killed 36 before he was caught.

While Bush is no Bundy, when it comes Bundy's education and acquired charm, and to our knowledge has never personally murdered anyone, it has been evident to us that there is something missing in George W. in terms of his lack of compassion and empathy. As governor of Texas, he set a record in signing death warrants — 154 in five years. He even made fun of the way convicted killer Karla Faye Tucker begged for her life.

If we believe the psychiatrists, a sign of a future serial killer is a child who delights in torturing and killing animals. George W., as a child, did exactly that. In a May 21, 2000, New York Times' puff piece about the values Bush gained growing up in Midland, Texas, Nicholas D. Kristof quoted Bush's childhood friend Terry Throckmorton: "'We were terrible to animals,' recalled Mr. Throckmorton, laughing. A dip behind the Bush home turned into a small lake after a good rain, and thousands of frogs would come out. 'Everybody would get BB guns and shoot them,' Mr. Throckmorton said. 'Or we'd put firecrackers in the frogs and throw them and blow t

When George W. Bush was 16 or so, the frogs in the pond outside his boyhood home in Midland, Tex., weren't the only targets the future president shot at with his trusty BB gun.

"He said, 'I'm going to count to 10, and you run all the way down the hall,' " the president's little brother, Neil Bush, recalled at a Utah Republican Party dinner in Provo two years ago, according to the Deseret News.

Big brother drawing a bead on the backsides of siblings Neil and Jeb must have left a mark because Neil also told the story to a class of Richmond second-graders. "I was running as fast as I can with my little lightweight summer pj's on, and then '7, 8, 9, 10!' Boom! I felt it on my right cheek," the Richmond.com news reported his recounting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A13603-2004Nov25?language=printer