Do you condone torture?

[HughMoran]

Poll question: Do you condone torture?

I just read a post that stated that there were DUers that condone torture. I'm just curious what percentage here are pro-torture or at least think that those who would commit such acts should not be prosecuted.

[madeline_con]

1. Other. Torture the Chimp!

:applause:

[HughMoran]

2. Ooops, I forgot about the Chimp

An exception for just one person :)

[madeline_con]

6. You forgot the Chimp?! Isn't he public enemy #1?

[HughMoran]

8. He was

Glad he's gone. Cheney won't shut up though and he needs to go to jail for life.

[Xipe Totec]

3. Prosecute them all, let the courts sort it out. n/t

[BobRossi]

4. Other...

No, I don't condone torture and think all involved in torture should be prosecuted, no exceptions, including those that enable it, and those that let tortures go free.

[HughMoran]

5. OK, who likes torture?

C'mon, fess up! :)

[MrSlayer]

7. I'd like to torture child rapists and the like.

So I suppose I do condone it in certain cases.

[imdjh]

9. And we're off and running....

:popcorn:

[MrSlayer]

10. Someone had to stir the pot.

:evilgrin:

[imdjh]

11. Almost a gift to the OP, right?

[HughMoran]

16. Most people can relate to those feelings

As much as I'd like to see certain predators skinned alive, I don't think any person of conscience would want this sort of punishment to occur in reality.

[Ohio Joe]

12. A girl friend and I would sometimes...

oh wait... never mind :evilgrin:

[OmahaBlueDog]

15. I believe Skinner disallows the discussion of consensual torture

... but thanks for that ;-)

[OmahaBlueDog]

13. I like terrorists driving planes into our buildings and killing Americans less than I like torture

The thing is that if a nation is perceived as decent and honorable in their treatment of prisoners, they are actually a) more likely to surrender when cornered and b) more likely to cooperate over the long run. Stephen Ambrose writes about this in Citizen Soldiers; Germans were far more likely to surrender to Americans, knowing they'd go to a clean prison camp with decent treatment, than they would be likely to surrender to the Russians, from whom they knew they'd receive very harsh treatment.

OTOH, let's not kid ourselves. FDR and Truman condoned torture, as has been revealed in documents declassified over the past several years. I also have no doubt that captured cold warriors (read: spies) weren't read their rights and afforded all of their consitutional guarantees during questioning. Why I've heard tell that some came flying out of second story windows at Fort Dietrich, but maybe that's just an urban legend.

I'll be honest: from my perspective, those who planned and ordered 9-11 cannot suffer enough. I would condone any amount of cruelty leveled against Osama Bin Laden and Khalid Sheik Mohammed. But that's the problem with torture, isn't it? When the ends start justifying the means, then you start thinking it's OK to torture everyone who can possibly get you to the planners of 9-11 -- including wives, children, parents -- people who had little or nothing to do with planning and executing terror. By the time you're done, you've become the terrorist, and for what?

Meanwhile, back at the ranch -- in the good ol' US of A -- while we're spending billions or trillions or whatever to avenge the 2,976 that died as a result of 9-11, guess what's happening? If Christine Hardin Smith of Firedoglake is to be believed, what's happening is that - according to a study by the National Academy of Sciences -- around 20,000 Americans die each year because they can't get the healthcare they need. So to recap: every year, the eqivalent of 6.5 September 11ths worth of deaths take place here in America; as far as I know, no one has been tortured to defuse this ticking time bomb.

So I guess my dislike list would be in this order:

a) I most dislike the fact that 20,000 Americans die from something as stupid as a lack of affordable healthcare

b) Next, I dislike terrorists who kill Americans

c) then comes my disdain for torture

Thank you for letting me rant, Mr. Moran

[HughMoran]

18. I've never considered prioritizing torture on the grand scale of things

WRT torture, I think you said it best here:

"But that's the problem with torture, isn't it? When the ends start justifying the means, then you start thinking it's OK to torture everyone who can possibly get you to the planners of 9-11 -- including wives, children, parents -- people who had little or nothing to do with planning and executing terror. By the time you're done, you've become the terrorist, and for what?"

Nice rant :)

[Believing Is Art]

19. .

"I'll be honest: from my perspective, those who planned and ordered 9-11 cannot suffer enough. I would condone any amount of cruelty leveled against Osama Bin Laden and Khalid Sheik Mohammed. But that's the problem with torture, isn't it? When the ends start justifying the means, then you start thinking it's OK to torture everyone who can possibly get you to the planners of 9-11 -- including wives, children, parents -- people who had little or nothing to do with planning and executing terror. By the time you're done, you've become the terrorist, and for what?"

That's one argument against torture from a moral standpoint, but I think the pragmatic ones are just as if not more important. Torture doesn't get us any useful info. If anything, we get useless leads that take time and resources away from real threats. It's a great recruiting tool for those who would cause us harm which puts our soldiers at greater risk. We lose our credibility when we torture so we have less leverage when our citizens are captured abroad.

There's really nothing good that can come from torture.

[Generator]

22. Okay

OF course I would like to personally kill anyone that harmed my children. I often think that should be justifiable homicide since I got to be a parent.

But as a parent, I also realize this. It could be my child. It could be my innocent child. I know for a fact that some if not many of those we tortured were innocent. And that is why you have laws-international laws. Because you don't ever want it to be your child being tortured. Mistaken identity! And shit, some of those in Guantanamo were just people standing around, like that damn kid who was 14 when he went to Guantanamo and has spent the rest of his life there. Can you live with that? Can you live with becoming the thing you hate? Can you live with detention without trial? Do you want any chance of anyone you ever love having that happen to them?

Those people in the planes were symbolic of people that oppressed other Muslims to the idiotic Muslim fanatics. And most of the people tortured Guantanamo are like worry beads-we torture them just to make ourselves feel better. 9.11 didn't help the Muslim world for the Muslims that wanted it. Torture doesn't even work! It has achieved nothing. In some case, yes, there is a chance it might give you something. Of course, you give your soul in exchange. Have you read what the tortures lives are like after having been a torturer? Seymour Hersch has written on this. It ruins the torturers life too-even if the did it in "good faith" because a "memo" said it was okay.

And torturing people doesn't make us safer, better or anything. IT makes us as bad as them.

Edited because you do get it and there are so many reasons it's wrong-and yeah I can even have *some empathy for the torturers-that's the point, I think-empathy for the worst is what makes us human but not being the worst and making excuses for it.

[burning rain]

14. Absolutely oppose it.

Under no circumstances do I accept torture.

[DemoTex]

21. Thank you!

Moi aussi!

[The Straight Story]

17. I put up with reading GD Primaries didn't I? Talk about torture...

:rofl:

[L0oniX]

20. Yes there are many Du members that think torture is normal according to...

this earlier op of mine where the Milgram experiment results were extolled as normal behavior for most people in that most people would take part in torturing others.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5477120

[HughMoran]

23. There is a difference between human behavioral studies and condoning torture

I can tell you with 100% certainly that I could never be convinced to torture another human being - even under experimental conditions. I'm sure some others here would be able to shock others and laugh about it. C'est la vie.

As to the topic of this thread, I don't condone torture under any circumstances.

[Lilith Velkor]

24. The fact that this question even needs to be fucking asked is proof that America is over.

I suppose it was fun while it lasted.

[HughMoran]

25. Looking at the results, it seems the split comes down to prosecuting ALL versus just the LEADERS

This poll seems to state that the vast majority of DUers are not condoning torture. Thus if an individual here thinks that only the leaders should be prosecuted, stating that they are "condoning torture" is a logical fallacy.

[NYC_SKP]

26. More #2 than #1, both are somewhat simplistic.

Because I can imagine exceptions to the prosecute all, such as granting immunity to a whistleblower, or to an enlisted man who tortured under the threat of being shot or tortured him or herself, I voted for number two, "just the leaders" rather than the more sweeping "them all".

NYC_SKP

:patriot:

[HughMoran]

27. It's tough making a poll with a decent amount of deliniation between choices

...without making the choices somewhat simplistic. I do think #2 encompasses the basic idea that some may have to be granted immunity to get at the big players. Some might also have a bit of understanding for the low-down grunts doing the actual heinous acts.

[NYC_SKP]

28. Yep, that's why I went with number two.

What happens far too often, sadly, is that the lower downs take the punishment while the higher up get away with it.

The current analysis seems to leave open the possibility of those higher-ups.

Thanks for the poll. :fistbump:

[Quantess]

29. I voted option 2. It is the most fair, yet least likely.

IF anyone is prosecuted for their part in torture---and we don't know whether that will happen---history tells us the lower ranking participants will go first.

To my estimation, the lower ranking officers/soldiers were just following orders and so their punishment should be minimal compared to their "superiors". IMHO.

[cliffordu]

30. I believe in it. But only if it involves my family.

[Enthusiast]

31. It was not just torture.

It was murder. People in the custody of the U.S.A. died under interrogation.

[JVS]

32. Torturers must be executed in order to make a renunciation of their techniques credible

We know that they've done it before and we cannot allow them the opportunity to do it again.

[Moochy]

33. Oh those poor torturers! Who will think of them!?!?

They were just doing their job!!! :sarcasm:

[muffin1]

34. I was torn because I do not condone torture at all,

but I also like eggs.:D

[HughMoran]

35. I got that from a Billy Crystal comedy routine

He was making fun of Leon Spinks (sp) in a comedy skit back in the 1980's maybe?

[Moochy]

37. Probably one of my most used random sayings. :)

"I like eggs"

The kid with zombie face paint who likes turtles is probably the 2000's equivalent.

"I like turtles"

[LWolf]

36. Other:

Only when a Democrat condones it, of course.