The CIA officer who tortured isn't some distant other

[cali]

he's you. and me. I'm sorry to inform you, but that what both history and science inform us.

Sure, I want to believe that I'd never do any such thing. After all, I'm someone who literally can't bear seeing the pain of an insect, but I know better. I know that we all have dark recesses and that circumstance can lead most people to do terrible things.]

This is NOT a plea for sympathy for those who tortured. I am not saying these people shouldn't be prosecuted. I believe each case should be assessed individually. I'm disappointed that they won't be. But that's not what this post is about. I keep seeing posts here that express the pov that these people are monsters or thugs or somehow outside of the normal human range of behavior. They aren't. It isn't.

We should know that by now.

[G_j]

1. true in one sense

but also, going into that certain line of work is a choice.

[MADem]

2. But they have to be!

Otherwise, the smug superiority doesn't work, you see!

[kentuck]

3. It takes a certain type of arrogance and personality...

to work for the "Company"...

[merh]

4. I know I wouldn't do anything like that

nor would I allow it. I stepped between plenty of guards and inmates to prevent just that type of behavior. I had my car attacked and the guards tried to set me up with drug smuggling - plenty of threats and lots of intimidation but still, I couldn't allow others to be abused and was successful in preventing the same and getting policies changed. (I worked in a jail/prison, not as a guard but as an advocate for the rights of the inmates.)

Don't excuse away the abuse by saying that the individuals who did this were humans - they were monsters and anyone that defends their conduct is just as guilty.

[cali]

5. you know what? I've done the same thing. I've stepped between guards and inmates

I've stepped between psych staff and patients at the pit of a state hospital so bad that the feds shut it down, and though I don't think I'd ever do anything to harm another human except in clear self-defense, I don't know for sure.

And neither do you. It's dangerous to think that people are monsters. There's ample scientific and historical evidence that contradicts that.

[kentuck]

6. Where's the evidence??

I lean more to "they are monsters" argument.

[cali]

7. here's one place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment#Results

Even without such experiments- and Milgram isn't the only one- history should tell us that all those who torture, who do dreadful things, aren't generally monsters. They're all too human.

[merh]

9. No, it's not dangerous to think people are monsters

It is dangerous to defend the monsters that abused so easily, that tortured as they did.

[cali]

12. yeah, it is dangerous. it's dangerous to delude oneself into

believing that there are such things as monsters. These people are all too human.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[merh]

31. Definition of monster

That appears to be something you DO NOT KNOW.

: one who deviates from normal or acceptable behavior or character
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monster

It is dangerous for you to delude yourself into believing there are no "monsters" - unless of course you consider those who torture and abuse to be normal and their behavior acceptable.

Learn to understand the definition of WORDS.

[Bluerthanblue]

22. you won't find me defending their conduct Merh... but you

will find me defending their humanity. It is only when you become able to view others as anything less than you yourself, that you can commit atrocities against them.

I hope I'm never so lost, desperate, angry or confused that I do that, but pretending that somehow I'm 'above' it is the first step in becoming what you, and so many others call a "monster".

:grouphug:

[TahitiNut]

24. Amen.

"pretending that somehow I'm above it is the first step in becoming what you, and so many others call a 'monster'."

Truer words are rarely spoken. :applause:

[merh]

35. No the term monster appropriately applies

to folks referenced in this article
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200990413001

or the ones referenced in this thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5484037

Acknowledging the behavior as monstrous is necessary - defending the behavior as "human" is dangerous, it is as if one defends it.

Understanding the behavior is the first step in trying to prevent it in the future, it does not negate the monstrous nature of the behavior.

[kentuck]

27. Yes. We are all responsible for our actions...

whether or not we are simply following orders. There is such a thing as personal responsibility. And that is not just a right-wing attribute. In fact, if it were, they would be first in line demanding responsibility. But, they are nowhere to be found. They are being led by the noses by the wealthy propagandists and talk show hosts. It doesn't matter if they think it is the right thing to do. They are still responsible, as adults, in educating themselves thoroughly on such important issues as torture and the Constitution and the Fourth Amendment, etc.

[Bluerthanblue]

38. I'm not trying to say what they did isn't something they are

clearly responsible for- They own their actions, regardless of who may have told them to do it, or whether they believed what they were doing was "legal" or somehow justifiable- the choice was ultimately theirs.
I'm sorry if I made it sound otherwise.

:hi:

[merh]

34. These people referenced in this article could easily say they were

"lost, desperate, angry or confused" - that does not explain away their behavior or make their behavior acceptable or normal.

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200990413001

They are monsters.

[Bluerthanblue]

39. sorry Merh- I can't

pretend that they are anything but 100% human. No alien dna, no strange monster implants. They are flesh and blood, just as you and I, AND just like sweet little Abeer was... as well as her family.
I'm very well aware of her sad death and suffering. There are several posts in the archives that I participated in ... her story is something that i relate to on a level that i cannot hide.
I believe those responsible should be held accountable, and I also believe that those who saw Green's potential and didn't follow up on it need to be taken to task.
The reasons lead up to people doing the "unthinkable" are many and varied- "lost, desperate, confused, or angry" are only a few- I didn't mean to imply that those emotions- or anything else- JUSTIFIES what was done, rather that they are contributing factors which all of us will likely encounter on some level during our lives- the actions still belong to the doers. And the actions are no less horrible-

Sorry I'm not better able to express my thoughts.
peace~

[merh]

41. You don't understand the meaning of the word "MONSTER"

that means you continue to post uninformed and highly emotional posts.

I suggest you go find a dictionary and look the word up for yourself.

Then, unless you find the behavior to be normal and acceptable, you will admit that they are monsters.

[Bluerthanblue]

43. you may think that

you are using the word to simply classify the behaviour- but when people claim that human beings who commit atrocities are monsters- sub-human - animals ... fundamentally different in composition then they themselves are- they are actually trying to find some kind of reassurance that they could never act in a similar fashion.- which is a dangerous illusion.

I don't find the behaviour "normal" (which is a fluid measure) or "acceptable"(ditto). You may classify me as highly emotional- I am who I am- and I won't pretend that I have no emotions, or that they don't influence my thoughts and actions. It's all part of being a human being.

If you think your calling people 'monsters' isn't based upon an emotional response to acts that you find disturbing on a deep level, I hope you'll do some more thinking.

I wish you well- We aren't strangers to each other- even if it may feel that way.
:hi:

[merh]

45. So, you refuse to accept the obvious

the definition of the word.

Main Entry:
1mon·ster Listen to the pronunciation of 1monster
Pronunciation:
\ˈmän(t)-stər\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English monstre, from Anglo-French, from Latin monstrum omen, monster, from monēre to warn — more at mind
Date:
14th century

1 a: an animal or plant of abnormal form or structure b: one who deviates from normal or acceptable behavior or character 2: a threatening force 3 a: an animal of strange or terrifying shape b: one unusually large for its kind 4: something monstrous ; especially : a person of unnatural or extreme ugliness, deformity, wickedness, or cruelty 5: one that is highly successful

monster<2>
One entry found.

Main Entry:
2monster
Function:
adjective
Date:
1837

: enormous or impressive especially in size, extent, or numbers

[Bluerthanblue]

47. no, not at all- I refuse to buy

into the illusion that those human beings whose actions so disgust or horrify me that lead some to label them "MONSTERS" are distinctly different in composition than me. If I was to accept your perspective, then I would have to find some way to justify their actions, because if they are 'born' as 'defective' 'monsters'- then how can I hold them completely responsible for what they do, any more than I could be angry at a person who was born mute or deaf for not listening or speaking when appropriate. Or a person born blind for not seeing????

Words are only tools to express thoughts- the only legitimacy they have is what we attach to them.

:shrug:

[merh]

48. As far as I know, it is the human race that created "words"

The word used to describe a human that is "of unnatural or extreme ... wickedness, or cruelty" is monster.

"Middle English monstre, from Anglo-French, from Latin monstrum omen, monster, from monēre to warn"

It is you and the OP that attach some fictional image to the word.

And yes, they are different from me, they have no conscience or moral compass. As I stated, I know for a fact because I worked in an environment where abuses of others was an "accepted norm" because the "others" were the "bad guys" or "not mentally balanced". I could have succumbed to peer pressure and closed my eyes to it, I would have never had put myself in harms way to protect another had I accepted the monsters that committed the cruelty as no different than me.

They are different, I don't defend them, you do when you fail to recognize the simple definition of the word and when you take exception to its use in the context I have used it, the context it was created to be used.

[TahitiNut]

23. "anyone that defends their conduct is just as guilty"???

Wow.

Sadly, this is symptomatic of the perspective of the "guards" in the Stanford prison experiment. To the degree this rhetoric reflects core attitudes, I believe it indicates a pronounced susceptibility to training and indoctrination wholly contrary to the claim of immunity from such influences.

[naaman fletcher]

8. A Savage War of Peace

Y'all she read the book "A savage war of peace" about the war in Algeria. The French extensively used torture. The basic concept was the same.. the guys doing the torturing weren't evil people. They were regular people who start out hating it, but get suckered into thinking that it is their duty and that they are saving lives. After a while though, it warps them as people. They are still haunted by what they did.

[liberalmuse]

10. Many CIA recruits are from Brigham Young University.

There is a large population of Mormons in the CIA and FBI. Interesting. It takes a special type of person. Someone who is easily herded.

And I really do believe people who participate in torture, rape, sexual humiliation are human beings who choose to become MONSTERS. I would not do it. I've had a few instances in my life where I have spoken out against abuse, or stopped it, so I know I would not be one of the participants, and I doubt many people here on DU would, either.

[stillcool]

11. We humans are all the same..

what goes in is what comes out. Evil isn't born, it is created and nurtured. How long have conquerors, or warring factions been doing this? The American exceptionalism should be dead by now, but it rages on. We are no better than any one else. We just deny more.

[NNN0LHI]

14. What about the ones who wouldn't do the stuff?

You do know there are some who wouldn't don't you? Well there were some who wouldn't.

Is it fair to them that they will be lumped in with the pond scum who did do it?

You think its a good thing that we don't know who are the torturers, murderers and child rapists who live among us?

Better think this one over a bit longer.

Don

[cali]

18. Obviously I know that. It's implicit in my OP.

None of us can truly know what we'd do in certain circumstances until we're there. We can hope. We can work on being conscious human beings, but part of that work is understanding that we ALL have dark recesses.

[Reterr]

15. I agree -I would recommend "The Lucifer Effect"

to anyone who hasn't read it on this topic. It is about those Stanford prison experiments. Very, very chilling. Much scarier to examine our own darker sides than a mythic monster. We are all capable of evil and I think it is important to realize this and be aware of it.

While certain personality types are probably more likely to be attracted to certain types of jobs and there is definitely a spectrum when it comes to this sort of stuff psychologically, we all do fall somewhere on that spectrum. It is not binary.

[cali]

19. Indeed. All one has to do is look at the fury on this thread.

to understand how desperately most humans want to deny their own dark sides.

[Fire1]

21. Agree. There is a 'dark' side to everyone psychologically

speaking. But imo, these folks are recruited from the ranks deemed as 'followers' not leaders. Those so easily swayed to go to any length to be 'accepted' as part of a group.

[Bluerthanblue]

25. the desperation is

born of fear. It's terrifying to really see what humans are capable of- and the idea we might not be able to stop ourselves from doing something so horrible is even more terrifying. So we work to convince ourselves that we are fundamentally different than 'them'- and justify our feelings about 'them' and our responses to 'them' and in the process we begin to become a bit more like "them". :shrug:

[bottomtheweaver]

28. The Stanford prison experiment is a bunch of horseshit propaganda, period.

Basically Zimbardo paid a couple dozen Stanford students to act out his little script, in a Stanford campus building no less, and they obediently did. It proves absolutely nothing except that the CIA loves to use professors to legitimize their crimes.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. We are all capable of becoming monsters. We are all responsible for our decisions to do so.

As you say, we all have a "dark side". In "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland", by Christopher Browning, the ordinary Germans of the battalion weren't SS indoctrinated robots, or hyper-nazi racists, they had been postmen, grocers, clerks, plumbers. Yet, they perpetrated ghastly atrocities against the population of Poland, mostly the Jewish population.

Despite their claims that they were "just following orders" some them were held accountable for their choice to participate in the crimes. They chose to make themselves monsters.

Just to add, the orders were were following at the time, were legal under German law.

The CIA operatives and their accomplices are equally liable for their choices.

[TahitiNut]

26. "The unexamined life is not worth living." Introspection is essential ...

... not only to better understanding of ourselves, but of others with whom we share a common humanity. All others.

It's not easy.
Things that are worthwhile rarely are.

[Odin2005]

17. I understand completely, I've been having sadistic desires to torture my friend's rapist.

Good people can do very cruel things if circumstances and emotions trigger it. *Shudder*

[Iggo]

Good people can do the WRONG thing...

...and should be punished accordingly.

[Iggo]

20. Hey! Double post! (n/t)

[NNN0LHI]

50. Have you been having sadistic desires to rape the children of the person who raped your friend too?

Because that is what our government was doing.

Just so we are clear about exactly what we are discussing here.

Don

[bottomtheweaver]

29. Oh baloney. And if you're thinking Milgrim's gag "experiments" proved anything

you're as gullible as most Americans, so I guess that makes you normal.

[cali]

32. I think history teaches us that ordinary people do extraordinary

things under the right circumstances.

[bottomtheweaver]

37. Ordinary people can be brainwashed, yes.

That's how the Pentagon turns children into murderers. The Nazis were apparently good at this trick too. That doesn't mean the crimes such people commit are any less crimes however.

An example would be the crimes committed by Manson's followers, who were supposedly acting on his orders. If the story we're told is true, and I doubt it but that's another conversation, he brainwashed them into committing heinous crimes, but they were still held accountable for those crimes, and so by the way was he.

[Bluerthanblue]

40. the military 'brainwashes' regularly- you DO have to be taught

to kill- you have to de-humanize 'the enemy' or you die, and you put your fellow soldiers at risk. My Dad was in WWII- he left behind a part of himself that he never was able to recapture of reconcile. That happens to more people than you'd think.

For some reason people seem to think that recognizing the behaviours we're talking about as completely HUMAN - something that any one of us are capable of, with excusing or justifying it. They aren't the same-

[bottomtheweaver]

46. Yes and it takes a "catalyzing event" and lots of fiery press to get

people to go along for the ride, but the profiteers have it gotten down to a fine art. I guess they never counted on people wising up to their tricks but apparently quite a few have.

[walldude]

30. Sorry not buying it.

It takes a special kind of sick fuck to torture someone. It takes someone even worse to do it because they were ordered to.

I never thought I'd see the day where people scramble to justify torture.

[Bluerthanblue]

44. where has Cali "justified" it?

it is possible to work to understand something, without condoning, justifying, or approving of it.

:shrug:

[Reterr]

52. it is possible to work to understand something, without condoning, justifying, or approving of it.

That is it right there in a nutshell :thumbsup:!

[Reterr]

51. "It takes a special kind of sick fuck to torture someone."

Look I would never want to defend torturers but I think this sort of attitude is what caused the RW to start making the case that torturing "them damn aayraabs" is justified.

I am not insulting you by implying that you would support torture of these guys. I think that is a nice asymmetry we have between the left and the right. But, I think it is important to realize the humanity of even people we really don't like, like these torturers.

It is one thing to say these acts are despicable and what was done very reprehensible. It is the next stretch to say that there exists an aberrant class of human beings SO unlike you or I that they do these things and that all these people belong to them that I have a problem with.

Sure at the extreme end of the spectrum there are sociopaths, but most of us are not born as assholes or awesome people. Our life experiences shape most of us and we all unfortunately have a capacity for evil. Until we acknowledge that we are destined to always be looking for "the other" that must be eliminated.

[Bluebear]

33. He is certainly NOT me. nt

[readmoreoften]

36. Well maybe you but.... /nt

[KayLaw]

42. I'm late to the thread.

Have you read any Martha Stout books? Just curious. I really think in "The Psychopath Next Door, " she is talking about George Bush, frog-killing and all. Then, she wrote a 9/11 book, warning us not to become human monsters.

[Hannah Bell]

49. historically, he's an ivy leaguer, top 5% of the population. not me.