What kind of sadist thinks the 184th episode of torture will do the trick?

[babylonsister]

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_04/017812.php


183 TIMES.... Marcy Wheeler scrutinized some of the Bush administration's torture memos and discovered a striking statistic.

According to the May 30, 2005 Bradbury memo, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003 and Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times in August 2002. <...>

{T}wo two-hour sessions a day, with six applications of the waterboard each = 12 applications in a day. Though to get up to the permitted 12 minutes of waterboarding in a day (with each use of the waterboard limited to 40 seconds), you'd need 18 applications in a day. Assuming you use the larger 18 applications in one 24-hour period, and do 18 applications on five days within a month, you've waterboarded 90 times -- still just half of what they did to KSM.

For years, one of the unfortunate aspects of the "debate" over abusive interrogation policies is the concerns surrounding practicality -- as if torture would we justifiable, if we knew with some certainty that it would produce the results (i.e., useful intelligence) we wanted.

Indeed, for proponents of torture, it's often all that matters. Never mind the law, or morality, or national prestige, or what these tactics do to undermine national security. If torture is effective, the argument goes, then it's a tool that belongs in our arsenal.

Now, we've known for quite some that the argument is not only morally bankrupt, it's also wrong. Torture "works" by compelling the abused to say what he/she thinks his/her captors want to hear.

And the KSM example seems to put the practical question to rest altogether. If waterboarding was an effective torture technique, why on earth did officials feel the need to administer it 183 times on one individual? What kind of sadist thinks, "We didn't get the information we wanted after torturing him 182 times, but maybe once more will do the trick"?

-Steve Benen

[eShirl]

1. what kind of sadist?

the kind watching on video from a remote undisclosed location

[babylonsister]

2. Yup, he'd be one of many involved. nt

[Jackpine Radical]

13. Answer #2 to "What kind of sadist?..."

The kind that had an orgasm on each of the 183 previous occasions of torture.

[KharmaTrain]

3. There's No Justification, Period...

And anyone who says there is, should be given a taste of what "enhance interrogation" is all about. But these shitstains use the wife beating argument that since we can't prove if it doesn't work then it must.

Listening to the right wing war criminals, you'd think Al Queda was some huge, organized army rather than a bunch of rag tag extremist cells...more interested in creating mayhem and paranoia than trying to blow up cities....and thanks to georgie booosh and his war criminals, Al Queda couldn't have asked for a better outcome...and they didn't have to fire a single shot.

I'm still waiting to hear about all these great plots that were foiled. In 2000 we learned about plots to disrupt millenium celebrations and also caught a lone wolf trying to sneak in via Canada. For all the years of the booosh regime, I can't think of any real plot that was uncovered.

The only result of that 183rd waterboarding was yet another Tom Ridge duct tape alert.

:hi:

[babylonsister]

4. Morning, KharmaTrain! Did you

read this? :wow: Denial isn't just a river in Egypt? :crazy:


http://www.anonymousliberal.com/2009/04/dispatches-from...

Dispatches from an Alternate Universe


Here's David Rivkin's take on the torture memos, posted at The Corner:

The conclusions OLC memos reach — that the specific interrogation techniques used by the CIA did not constitute torture — are eminently reasonable. To any fair-minded observer, these memoranda definitively establish that the Bush Administration did not engage in torture. In short, these memos go a long way towards rebutting shrill and unfair attacks on the integrity of Bush Administration officials, and, more generally, on America's honor.


And did I mention that up is down, black is white, and Vice President Palin has been doing a splendid job in office so far?

[KharmaTrain]

7. Reading The Memos Was Sickening...

It's an outrage to hear these appoligists bleat the same defense as many who were convicted in Nuremburg. I am shamed, as we all should be, that we live in a country where such "justifications" were even contemplated yet put into writing. I'd almost (ALMOST) would be willing to accept that it was a few bad apples or "shit happens"...but this was codified...a premeditated plan to violate international law (which boooshie had no regard for) and the laws of common decency. So much for the "compassionate conservative" bullshit.

[stop the bleeding]

5. Dickless Cheney from his secret lair, that's who. nt

[babylonsister]

8. One of many. There are so many people from the past admin

that are guilty.

[deutsey]

6. These rightwingers have an ideologically pure, black-and-white idea of how the world should work

They think that if they just keep forcing their fantasy on the rest of us, no matter how many times they're proved wrong or how often they fail, they'll finally prevail and we'll all have a perfect reality.

That's why "evil doers" are so important to them. They have someone to blame when their efforts end in shambles. If only it weren't for the dastardly intrigues of Muslims, or liberals, or gays, or socialists, or "FILL IN THE BLANK", their perfect world would be a reality.

[spanone]

9. talk about 'retribution'

[lunatica]

10. Well he was't dead so it wasn't torture

And a sadist is one who loves to inflict pain for it's own sake. Sadists are sociopaths who have zero empathy or sympathy and who enjoy their work. Why would they stop doing what they enjoy? Oh, and it's their job and they're following orders.

[Canuckistanian]

11. Torture is NEVER used sanely or for a utilitarian reason

It is a method of terrorizing the populace or to satisfy the vengeful tendencies of the torturer against a perceived "threat".

It didn't serve a useful purpose for the Germans or Japanese in WWII nor the juntas in South America nor the jails of Cambodia.

It is a blunt instrument of fear and hatred that is NEVER controlled or limited in any meaningful way.

It is a Pandora's box, which, once opened, cannot by it's nature be reversed.

[cliffordu]

17. Yep.

[Raineyb]

12. At these numbers it's not about trying to get what they want out of the person they're torturing.

It's their own sick sexual gratification.

Regards

[dem mba]

14. this happened because KSM and Zubaydah were prime targets

in the GWOT. The interrogators were certainly well aware of what these men did, and let's make no mistake, KSM and Abu Zubadayah were evil, sick psychos. They were true killers, true terrorists.

So I don't think the interrogators ever felt any ethical dilemmas beating the crap out of these guys physically and psychologically. As long as it was legal and signed off by their superiors, it was game on. The primary goal was ostensibly information gathering, but the secondary goal was well understood - revenge. It was punishment against these men for their heinous crimes.

The author of that article is taking the "torture gets intel" meme too seriously. The interrogators knew exactly what they were doing and why.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. So you support torturing prisoners

as long as the torturers are convinced that the victim is a 'true killer, a true terrorist'?

[dem mba]

19. how do you infer my support one way or the other?

i'm stating my opinion on the mindset of the interrogators. that's it. I just don't think the interrogators really thought they were getting intel after the oh, 50th waterboarding session or so.

to be clear i am against torture regardless of the certainty of guilt and would like to see gonzalez, addington, and woo prosecutred, for starters. realistically i don't see bush or cheney ever being held to account for allowing this to go on. maybe posthumously, but I doubt it.

[JVS]

15. One who should never be among the public again

[Solly Mack]

16. The exact same kind that thinks the 1st episode of torture will

[Senator]

20. K&R