The World Is Watching .... Will We Demand OUR LEADERS Be PROSECUTED For Torture?

[Blackhatjack]

It's not sufficient to say:
We must look forward not backward,

It will require public disclosure of classified information that might put us at risk of attack,

It was just an aberrant mistake by people who were acting in good faith to protect us all,

Well it was not actually us who tortured and those people who did are out of office where they won't torture in the future,


We all wear the stain of torture in our names unless and until we take on the responsibility of holding these criminally liable for their acts. We must insist that we do not abide torturers, it is not in keeping with the principles of our country, and we will take public action against those who wilfully and intentionally break the law.

Nothing less will do....

[ThomWV]

1. Pleased to kick and recommend this excellent opinion too.

Indeed, "Nothing less will do...."

[HereSince1628]

2. Please mail your post to following address...Nothing less will do

The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500

[cali]

3. the last thing the administration should do, is broadcast their intent

to go after bushco for torture. Not saying that is their intent, just noting that if it is, you aren't going to be hearing the admin broadcasting that message.

[lazer47]

6. Why does it have to be a secret?? Why do you not call a murderer out

or a thief or a torturer, We all know it and they do too,, what is the big secret??

[cali]

10. because you don't tip your hand on something that's this tricky

and because it's not just lke calling out a murderer. The forces in play are completely of another magnitude. Not to mention that signalling intent to prosecute would completely and utterly consume every other item on the agenda. Congress should be preparing the ground for prosecutions. And patience is something that should be practiced regarding this. Look how long it's taken other countries to deal with torturers in their pasts. Look at France, for instance. Well, actually, don't bother. They gave amnesty to the torturers of Algeria- twice.

[lazer47]

11. You just don't get it,, it needs to be shouted from every roof top

these people who did this need to hide in fear, and shame of what they did,, they need to know up front that the authorities are coming for them,, we need to send a message to every other two bit wannabe dictator in this country, that we will not accept this type of behavior ever..

[cali]

13. no, I'm afraid you' don't get how utterly self-defeating that is.

and hate to clue you in to this sad fact, but even if we successfully prosecute it won't act as a deterrent. history teaches us that, pretty clearly. We need to do it for punative reasons, but it's delusional to think it will stop bad acts in the future. It won't, anymore than the DP acts as a deterrent.

[lazer47]

15. Repugs Jump with glee,, at your type of logic,,,

[cali]

16. really? do explain how, dear.

My logic is backed by history. The Nuremberg trials didn't deter further genocides. Indeed, the latter half of the 20th century was rife with them.

Facts are stubborn things. Reality is what it is. I'm all for prosecution of torturers. I think it has to be done, but I'm not going to ignore history or reality. I don't do stupid.

[lazer47]

17. I did stupid!!! for three tours in 'Nam,, because people in the

Administration didn't want to "tip their hand" at what was going on, or what they were doing,, in the process a lot of people died,, ask yourself this,, how many people are being tortured right this very minute?", how do you know?,, and who is afraid to torture?, because nobody is in fear of what might happen,,,,,I don't do stupid anymore,, I speak out, I get in Repugs faces, I make them afraid because I am quiet tired of "Not tipping my hand anymore",,, As for History at 61 yrs old "I AM THAT HISTORY".

[cali]

18. tut tut

temper tantrums do not an argument make. And as for your age, that's irrelevant. You clearly aren't familiar with the history I'm referencing. You are not that history as you so arrogantly claim. Get a frickin' grip and do consider educating yourself.

[lazer47]

20. Naw, I'd just as soon stay stupid,, that way it leaves more room for

people like you to claim intelligence. Fini

[mbperrin]

26. Thank you for your service. Thank you for your knowledge as well.

And your passion.

One thing prosecution and execution does do is to keep those folks from doing it again. Inarguable.

So we could at least save their future victims.

People have died and are very likely dying right now for lack of authorities saying, "This is against the law. We are arresting, prosecuting, and will punish all who have done this in the past, who are doing it right now, and anyone who does it in the future."

If we don't, we owe an apology to those convicted at Nuremberg, among many others.

If this country puts up with torture as an official policy, we're finished.

[TankLV]

23. READ what Cali is saying: THERE IS NOTHING STOPPING "US" FROM SHOUTING!!!!

Obama has to keep his cards close to his vest...

remember if THEY can KILL JFK, remember what happened to MLK - another corageous leader who just happened to be black...

Obama is very mindfull of AmeriKKKan history...

[TheBigotBasher]

39. That post saddens me

not for its content but for the sad truth. If British politicians were implicated in this as well - Mr Blair - I want the CPS to go for prosecutions.

[anigbrowl]

29. For the same reason a prosecutor doesn't want a mistrial

It is very, very rare for this kind of thing to be straightened out overnight in any country, because the political and legal aspects are complex. A poor or hasty attempt to address the situation will likely produce no result other than strife and division, and damn little justice. People make out that it's simple and all that it needs is a thumbs-up from Obama, but they're wrong.

Recall the old proverb 'the wheels of justice grind slow, but they grind exceedingly small'.

[TankLV]

22. good points, all - and I agree...

but that doesn't mean THE REST OF US can't be clamoring and shouting for PROSECUTIONS!!!

Obama is playing chess while the TORTURERS are playing with themselves and TEABAGGING each other!!!

[bvar22]

24. The FIRST thing Obama needs to do....

...is to immediately have the AG appoint an Independent Prosecutor to fully investigate and publicly Prosecute ALL involved with Torture at all levels.
Then the Obama administration needs to step aside and let the chips fall where they may.


There is no obvious downside for the Obama Administration.

*Appointing an Independent Prosecutor removes a politically explosive issue from Obama's crowded plate.

*It avoids the already simmering perception that Obama is soft on Torturers and War Criminals.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5484154

[Ohio Joe]

30. Unfortunately, I believe you are correct

My emotional response would be to do it differently but my rational thought tells me you are correct.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pleah]

5. K&R

[Blackhatjack]

7. You cannot make the consequences of torture go away by IGNORING IT ....

It will always be there.

It will be raised ad finitum by those we attempt to dissuade from engaging in human rights abuses.

We will wear it around out necks like an iron yoke until we address it by investigating it and prosecuting those responsible.

[KharmaTrain]

8. No...Justification...Period

This country wasn't being invaded...no large armies sitting on our borders ready to attack, no large Soviet Bear with scores of MIRVs ready to fricase every major city. We were "attacked" by a small cell...a group, IMHO, no different than the militias within our own borders. We didn't scrap the Constitution when McVeigh blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma, but since these extrmists had a brown skin, had funny sounding names and had oil...well then anything goes. Shameful!

If we can't stand up to a small group of terrorists...internal or external...then what "democracy" do we have? What example can we be to others as to respecting human rights? There is a lot of blood on this country's hands...instead of putting those hands in pockets, they need to be cleansed...and in plenty of sunshine.

Yes...nothing else will do. But to expect politicians to do "the right thing" is asking to be let down. They must be pushed...through letters or the pocket book...and we must not let those bloody hands out of our sight. But this is also an international matter...one beyond our ability to clean up. There needs to be a worldwide demand for accountability...bringing those who launched an illegal war for profit to trial. If they believe their violations of human rights and international law are "justified"...bring it out in that forum.

Cheers...

[stillcool]

9. My letter to my Congressman and Senators...

I am writing to you regarding the torture memos that were just released. We've been reading these stories for years, and I didn't think it was possible for new information to phase me one way or another, but I was wrong. These memos reveal a cunning, devious, intricate legal finding to allow a nation to wholly act with brutality and disregard for any human life. The controlled, specific directions to provide the thinnest thread of legal cover for what the whole world considers torture is mind bending. It's one thing to torture. It's quite another to legalize it in such minute detail. I have no idea how to make this right. But I do know that some action is necessary. It is impossible to look away. The totality of the destruction to our country and from our country can not be reconciled in any way. There isn't enough rationalization in the world. Believe me I've tried. Past empires have behaved with human cruelty and depravity, and they all suffered their fates. I believe we will too. I just wish there were some way to at least have our government appear to care, appear to have a conscious. I hope that you and your colleagues can find some way to act. Do anything, but do something. Thank you.

[ima_sinnic]

27. great! I hope you will snail mail it to all of them as it will get more attention & respect that way

. . . goes off to write letters ...

[stillcool]

28. will do ..thanks for the reminder..

[Mira]

12. Nothing less will do - a rallying cry with me by your side. Nothing. Less. Will. Do.

Part of the reason I left my home country of Germany, and I hesitate to admit this for fear of being misunderstood, is that I bore what to my thinking was grave national guilt. In growing up having been born in the last year of the war I did not hear enough in school or in my communities about what we had done.

I now find myself with a new national guilt. It feels familiar and I will not ever give up while there is any hope at all,
and frankly, I have a lot of hope and I believe in that President Obama is smarter than I and has a plan and a path. I must believe it.
Nothing less will do.
Thanks for your inspiration to press on.

[dixiegrrrrl]

31. A quote from " The Reader"...

excellent movie, I just finished it.

" They knew...the good German citizens knew what was happening but they said nothing, they did nothing".

THAT is the history we dare not repeat.
THAT is the reason our silence makes us co-conspirators.
THAT is why we ...yes, "we", some of us, took to the streets to protest Viet-Nam.

And yes, I have written, called and e-mailed, a lot.

Maybe instead of sending letters to the WH, we should send them to Democracy Now and to KO and to Maddow, where they might be acknowledged.

[Stuart G]

14. Kic and Rec nt

[spanone]

19. only taxing the rich gets people on the streets

[TankLV]

21. YES!!! We SHALL overcome!!!

WE need to PUT THE HEAT ON!!!

[Senator]

25. K&R

[salguine]

32. Maybe citizens need to file suit against the torturers in civil court.

[TheBigotBasher]

40. There was actually such a casegoing on in the UK

and shamefully both the UK and US (yes Obama) governments covered up the evidence. The British Foreign Secretary then denied any complicity in torture and I simply do not believe him.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8356868

[snake in the grass]

33. No justice, no peace,

and no text.

[Kablooie]

34. No. I do not believe that current leaders will EVER prosecute previous leaders.

I'm sure they feel it sets too dangerous a precedent.

If Bush were prosecuted, when we get another Republican president he will certainly
trump up some fake charges to prosecute the previous Democratic administration with.

And the fact the previous "leaders" technically had legal justification for what they did.
In a U.S. court of law that would probably stand even though it's obvious the reasons were bogus.

So I don't believe that there will be any official prosecution. If Bush had been impeached they
might do so but not now.

[Skittles]

35. and the excuses keep on coming

:thumbsdown:

[Kablooie]

36. Yep. I'll bet they will. But not prosecution .

Unless some other country follows through with it. That migh
t change things.

[Fumesucker]

37. I agree with you..

There will be no prosecution, IMO.

Just look at the bombshell about Jane Harman/wiretapping/Israel, these people have dirt on every politician in the damn country that has any dirt to be found and that's the overwhelming majority of them.

Another reason there will be no prosecution, entirely too many well closeted skeletons will jump to animated life, what we have seen so far is but the tip of the iceberg when it comes to corruption.

[BigBearJohn]

38. Too many skeletons in THAT closet. It will STAY double-bolted for 50 years.