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It's not the "Nuremberg Defense". And Obama's right. Again.

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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:34 PM
Original message
It's not the "Nuremberg Defense". And Obama's right. Again.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 12:37 PM by gcomeau
I can't believe how many people in this forum still don't seem to grasp this... but Obama's statement was NOT that he wouldn't pursue prosecutions of CIA officials because they were "just following orders". It wasn't.

There is a world of difference between simply following an unlawful order (not supposed to do that and that's made very clear... that is not a legal defense) and having the top ranking government department in charge of evaluating and enforcing what IS a lawful order issue you direction telling you that you're acting legally. What we have in the case of those CIA officers is NOT just a matter of people following unlawful orders. What we have is people who were told BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT that they were following LAWFUL orders. And they are supposed to be able to believe the Justice Department knows what the hell they are talking about when it comes to this stuff.

Which is why it is so important to keep the Justice department non politicized. And why what Bush and his crew did to the place is so very, very dangerous.

The bottom line is that even if you tried to prosecute those officers they DO have a damn near ironclad legal defense. They'll win. I guarantee you right now you put them in a court and they get acquitted. If you walk into a courtroom and tell the judge your cousin Frank the mechanic told you it was legal to take money out of the cash drawer at the convenience store if someone left it open they'll laugh you out of court and right into a cell. But if you replace "cousin Frank" with, say... THE ATTORNEY GENERAL... then that's a very different matter. If you yourself are a legal scholar the court would probably be inclined to say you still should have known better anyway. But if you're not then you have a pretty damn solid defense.

And right about now someone is gearing up to righteously declare to me that "ignorance of the law is not an excuse". Well, no, it isn't. Quite right. But, do you happen to know why? The underlying, simple logic of that reality? Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse... because if you don't know you're supposed to ASK! They DID. And they didn't ask some random person on the street, they asked the goddamn Justice Department.

Now the people in Justice who wrote those opinions, they should be standing in front of a judge by now. Anyone who conducted torture before those opinions were provided to them? Haul them into court. Anyone who went beyond what those opinions laid out as being legal? Toss them in prison by all means. If there WERE any legal scholars on those teams who the court can conclude knew better than to accept those memos as valid then yep, they should go too (that would be that "good faith" thing Obama mentioned). But Joe average CIA operative who had every rational right to expect the Justice Department not to be lying to them about the legality of their actions? They're non prosecutable. That doesn't make what they did right, or moral, or legal... but they're still non prosecutable.

And yes, it IS actually possible to commit a non prosecutable illegal act. For example, robbing the 7-11 is illegal, but if someone else was holding a gun to your head making you do it you're not getting convicted. The extenuating circumstances don't legalize the act, but they do make it pretty much impossible to prosecute you for it. That seems to be another distinction that isn't registering on a lot of people here. Obama saying he won't prosecute the people who relied on Justice Department direction about the legality of their actions does NOT in any way somehow translate to Obama saying it was legal to do what they did just because the Justice Department said so. I've seen arm waving hysterics declaring that Obama's decision not to prosecute that group of people legitimizes or enables torture. That is pure 100% bullshit, it does nothing of the kind.

Now what we should be doing is focusing on applying pressure to get the people behind those opinions being issued prosecuted. Yoo needs to be hauled into court. So does Bybee, while he's being impeached. So does anyone else who was responsible for the generation of those memos. They CAN be prosecuted. And they are by far the more important targets of prosecution anyway. And Obama was very specific about who he was and was not considering possible targets of prosecution and all those people I just listed didn't make his cut as being out of bounds. Anyone here think that was an accident? "Oops, I forgot to mention that we're not going to prosecute the people who issued the opinions also"? Get real. He left the door wide open and he did it in a fairly obvious manner.

A little focus people.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. I want to ask Poppy Bush and co.
Did you kill Kennedy?
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Ummm... ok? -nt
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. If their cases are so winnable, let them stand trial and let a jury decide.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 12:45 PM by Tierra_y_Libertad
Also, they didn't, in any respect, have a gun held to their heads when they tortured people.

The Germans tried at Nuremberg were acting legally, under German law, when they committed similar atrocities against humanity.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. List...
1. Why not try them anyway? Because it would serve no purpose. Because the process itself would throw a giant wrench in the gears of every other effort the administration is making to repair all the damage that's been done. And because, as I just pointed out, there's no reason to do so.

2. I never said they had a gun to their heads. It was an illustration of a concept genius.

3. Did you not grasp that entire section where I pointed out that not one damn thing I was saying here had ANYTHING to do with trying to say those officers were acting legally?
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. List.
1. How do you know it would a "giant wrench in the gears"? Did trying the little fish involved in Watergate throw a wrench in the works? What evidence, not "hope", do you have that Obama is seeking trial for Big Fish? You say, there's no reason to do so. There are plenty of legal experts who think differently, including the rapporteur on torture of the UN. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090418/pl_nm/us_un_usa_interrogations;_ylt=Aq1LC.yHd.J7yqqtVdzsIbHGK7IF

2. Well, the concept genius who used the illustration should use one more attuned to the statement.

3. If you think that what they did was illegal, then what makes you think that a jury wouldn't think the same?
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Geez...
1. Because I have a pulse, more than two functioning neurons, eyes and ears which is all that is required to know what the Republicans would do with that gift from heaven above and how it would derail all other activities... Watergate isn't even remotely similar to this situation in either act, surrounding circumstances, or political environment... and Obama didn't go out of his way to be highly specific in his language of who he wasn't pursuing prosecutions against by accidental slip of the tongue. he didn't mean to say "we're not pursuing prosecutions against anyone" and then totally unintentionally insert the qualifier "CIA officers who relied in good faith on Justice Department briefings" because of some freaking verbal tic.

2. It was perfectly attuned. Your failure to comprehend the argument is your issue.

3. I DON'T think a jury wouldn't think the same. It was illegal, and they'd be acquitted. You know, there was an actual REASON I spent all that time explaining that "illegal" and "prosecutable" weren't always the same thing. I wasn't just spending all that time writing those sections for personal amusement.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. So, because you "think" a jury wouldn't find them guilty they shouldn't stand trial?
Or, is for political reasons that we should allow the thugs to walk? i.e. The Republicans might do something to prevent further prosecution. As if they wouldn't anyway?

You inferred that the CIA thugs were under duress to commit atrocities with the "gun to head" metaphor. You might have said they might be fired, which would be a helluva lot more attuned.

Again, why not test the jury system that is written in the constitution and see if the system is so corrupt that torturers would walk free?

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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
36. Why not test the jury system?
Because we don't try cases just for the fun of it when the prosecuting parties don't believe a conviction is appropriate, which in this case they clearly don't. And because just doing it for the hell of it to make you feel better would be counter productive to all kinds of other vital activities the administration is currently pursuing. If the first didn't hold the second clearly wouldn't stand up as sufficient grounds... but the first DOES hold. For reasons already thoroughly explained.

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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #36
49. Not to mention incredibly costly.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 04:44 PM by Egnever
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
118. Vital activities?
Like continueing illegal wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?
Like giving taxpayer moneys to the very banks that wrecked our economy?
Like refusing to listen to the citizens concerning medical marijuana?
Like allowing the insurance industry to reform health care?

Lining the pockets of the health,financial and defense industry insiders are not exactly vital activities-unless one happens to be one of the insiders who is getting their pocket lined.
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Cronopio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #36
135. "Because we don't try cases just for the fun of it ..."
But you are giving your support to the idea of allowing lawbreakers to go unpunished for political expediency. So your attitude towards the rule of law is far more facetious than Tierras.

Finding out that our jury system will flout the law as readily as our intelligence and judicial systems already have would definitely NOT be a "fun" conclusion that would "make us feel better". For some of us, learning the truth about what level of regard our system of governance still possesses for its own laws is more important than "fun" or "feeling better".

Gcomeau, you really have to know that you are on very thin moral and legal ice in your argument. I assume you're aware of the moral and socials precedents you are setting by treating laws as dispensations (to be arbitrarily applied) rather than principles (that are consistently applied), do you?

The tactical attitude towards the concept of the rule of law you've expressed in this thread makes me wonder about that.
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
81. Quite.
1) The Republicans have been such happy little kittens with the administration so far. who could possibly want to rock the boat and make them uncooperative. Let us see they have had the most fillibusters of any congress in American history even after they lost control. Who could want to trouble taht kind of bipartisan happiness?

Of course let us not forget the idiotic tea parties and the racheting up of language constantly on the part of Faux news.

How the hell could they be more bitter, uncooperative, and recalcitrant and not look like lunatics?
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
115. What OJ did was illegal
and he was acquited.
The acquital sure as hell didn't clear his name.He will always be known as a murderous thug.
The torturers may get off legally through acquital but everyone will know who they are and will know-KNOW- that they are inhumane monsters unworthy of respect in any shape or form.

As for what the pukes may think-FUCK THEM.
As far as I am concerned they are a criminal organization on par with the National Socialist Party and the pukes should suffer the same fate as the National Socialists.
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
75. Without accountability
There can be no justice. The fact of the matter is that the intelligence people were only one of the organizations involved in these activities and most of them were not engaged in this behavoir. A thorough investigation will probably discover that those involved directly as participants were either civillian contractors or military personal at the behest of contractors.

The overwhelming majority of intelligence officers involves would only end up being no-nothing cronies and political pro-Bush scum anyhow.

Failure to prosecute does us more harm than good as it preserves these links and does not punish those guilty of enacting and justifying this illegal policy.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. " The Germans tried at Nuremberg were acting legally, under German law"

...which is why they weren't tried under German law.
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cottonseed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. +1
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. I understand and respect your argument. But the Germans had their memos too.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 01:00 PM by Democracyinkind

... Look at the debate around the T-programs, the opinions written back then about that... Legal Mumbo Jumbo, written by people who wanted to enable torture and more. They gave the precedent and rationale for the SS guards who came on later in the camps. They had a pretty good legal argument.

But yeah. The memo authors are the criminals. Agree. Still I don't see any difference. Everyone in office or in duty of a country swears loyalty, but never blind loyalty. You cannot force a soldier/CIA operative to do something that is against the constitution or against the spirit of the constitution (torture is so against everything that document stands for, many say) - well, you can, but he has the moral right to refuse. He can refuse. He should refuse.
We criticized the Germans exactly for that - they changed the definition of "right" and "wrong", of "legal" and "illegal" - our argument (represented f.e. in Goering's Hearings) was that no matter the law, no matter the order, some things are always wrong, everyone knows that (or everyone CAN know that) and therefore everyone has the moral choice an obligation to refuse. Our position back then was that they should have, no matter the law.

Kind of the same thing? not?
(I never claimed Obama's motivation for not prosecuting was a defense of the Nürnberg position)

Personally, I doubt that the pressure put on CIA operatives to torture was stronger than the pressure put on regular Wehrmacht soldiers to execute people. I think the CIA interrogator could pretty much just walk out, the Wehrmacht soldier would have been shot. Maybe that counts for the interrogator too, but I highly doubt we woulda seen the execution of an interrogator who refused to break his oath on the constitution.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Actually, the Wehrmacht soldier wouldn't have been shot.
See "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland" by Browning.

In the Wehrmacht, and even in some units of the Waffen SS, soldiers could refuse to obey the orders to commit atrocities. They would be transferred to other units. Many did.
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. I'll note the book... But the cases I had in mind were in Russia, not Poland.

My argument again, to clarify:

I am not convinced of the fact that a CIA/DOD interrogator/operative is under greater pressure to follow his orders when they are against "human nature" than say a KZ-Guard or Wehrmacht Soldier forced to execute people was. (There are cases of executions of soldiers that refused to execute civilians, primarily on the Russian/Ukrainian front and certainly not the norm at the time - like so many things in the third Reich, you'd almost find a case for anything.)

But I agree with what you said, probably the majority of Soldiers had the choice and didn't have to face drastic consequences - at least consequences comparable to that of our modern day example.
So I take it that your objection adds to my argument, if the concession can be made that there were both cases in WW2, granted that what you described was probably the norm.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
72. Good.
That argument should be taken into account during the Sentencing Phase...after the Indictment and Public Trial.

There is no such thing as Torturing "in good faith".
Torturers are criminals, even when they have a note from their lawyer.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
6. So if DOJ told them they could lynch black people
again, would they be guilty of murder?
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. For cripes sake.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 01:11 PM by gcomeau
Try to think things through before making these absurdly oversimplified attempts at presenting those two situations as if they're remotely similar. Read the post again, this time pay attention to the GOOD FAITH part, then think about what you just said. The person doing the lynching would have to be retarded to make a believable argument that they had a reasonable and rational expectation that such an opinion was valid and above board in the modern United States.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. for cripes sake.
The person doing the torturing would have to be retarded to make a believable argument that they had a reasonable and rational expectation that such an opinion was valid and above board in the modern United States.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. No, they would not.
Because "black person" and " captured terrorist" are two incredibly different things that involve two completely different sets of considerations about what is and is not appropriate in their treatment. For one thing, you CAN legally lock up and interrogate a person for being the latter. The legal question comes into play in the specific manner in which the interrogation occurs.

Or were you arguing "black person" and "terrorist" were conceptually equivalent? Hmmm?
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. SUSPECTED terrorist. What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Another legal standard that even I, horse trainer from the midwest and certainly not a legal scholar, know.

Suspected terrorist please. Not just "captured terrorist". This is supposed to be about the US Constitution. Our very rights are at stake here.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
48. the people that are designated as terrorists are not American citizens
so are not afforded the rights given to us in the constitution. Unless you are going to extend our constitution to cover everyone on the planet (pretty arrogant thing to do IMHO) presumed innocent doesn't apply to them.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #48
64. that is rightwing bullshit
please show me where in the constitution rights and privileges (other than voting and elected offices) are restricted to citizens. In fact the constitution is explicit in demarcating where 'citizens' and even 'natural born citizens' have rights and privileges and other people don't, and elsewhere uses the term 'the people' when referring to general and universal rights. Even the depraved Bush administration was careful to violate people's rights where no us court had standing so as to avoid the obvious court challenges to those violations. Only hate radio seriously makes the claim that only citizens can claim basic human rights.

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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #48
76. Hmm... tourists?
You have just said the US can grab any random **tourist** off a street in New York and hold them prisoner forever, without charging them or letting them see a lawyer, simply because the person is not a US citizen. Because according them habeas corpus would be pretty arrogant.

Wow, just fucking wow.

But defending torturers - both those who give orders and those who execute them - must lead one to absurdity. There is no other way.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #48
105. What a load of shit.
If a tourist commits a crime in the US, are they afforded due process?

Any person in our custody, whether they be US citizens or from another nation, are entitled to the protections of our law.

Can you kill a tourist and say "it's cool, they aren't protected by our laws"?

And check out 18 USC 2340
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002340----000-.html



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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #48
116. They are POWs
And as such they are entitled to the protections of the Geneva Conventions.
Any violation of the Geneva Convention are considered war crimes and are punishable as such.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Yeah that's it, you got me dead to rights
"Or were you arguing "black person" and "terrorist" were conceptually equivalent? Hmmm?"

No, I am pointing out that the CIA was well aware that torture was illegal under both US and international law and when told to torture asked for covering memos so that apologists such as yourself could make truly tortured arguments that torturers were not criminals and should not be prosecuted.

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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Sigh...
Point out that the CIA knew torture was illegal all you want. Here I am agreeing with you.

THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE. Try reading the memos if you want to keep discussing them. The issue is whether those operative knew that the techniques they were using were legally considered to BE torture... and thus illegal. They went to the Justice Department for an opinion, the Justice Department came back and said "Nope, you're good."

So the people at DOJ responsible for saying that should be facing trial right now, but the people they said it to? They're pretty darn well covered.

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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
77. And who do you suppose would be making the distinction?
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 01:16 PM by moodforaday

Because "black person" and " captured terrorist" are two incredibly different things that involve two completely different sets of considerations about what is and is not appropriate in their treatment.


Right here you are falling down a huge pit of a contradiction. What you said, quoted above, is true - but you should not have said it. Because you are now implying that **if** the DOJ said it's OK to lynch black people, **then** the rank and file people should and would know that was absurd, illegal and totally wrong. If so, then why doesn't this apply to the torturers as well?

Your whole argument is based on the claim that once the DOJ says something is OK to do, the rank and file can do it without fear of prosecution, since their asses are now covered. And we apparently will not be inquiring into whether the torturers knew or should have known better, what happened to their ethics, their oaths, their own understanding of the law, etc. Apparently a DOJ memo erases your brain clean before applying the new information.

Yet now you're saying people may indeed know better and would act on that knowledge by disobeying a clearly illegal order to lynch black people. Well, you can't have both. It is totally valid to say that once a DOJ memo can cover your ass for torture, it can do the same for any other crime. It will just not be "prosecutable".

On edit, to restate: you claim that there is a line somewhere between (a) the DOJ saying you may torture people freely, and (b) the DOJ saying you may lynch black people freely. Who draws that line and where exactly does it fall between torture and lynching? And in whose mind is that line drawn? Either the torturers (the rank and file) have minds of their own, or they do not. If they do, they should stand trial for torture. If they do not, then the hypothetical lynching should not be prosecutable, either, once the DOJ says go ahead.


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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Pardon me. I thought the Geneva Convention was
sacrosanct and see the identical problem with GOOD FAITH and torture. The illegality of torture was supposed to be valid and above board everywhere.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
149. Of for christsake - YOU are trying to make it unnecessairly COMPLICTATED when it's as SIMPLE as
Mailaise wrote!

IT'S A VERY SIMPLE CONCEPT.

FOLLOWING ILLEGAL ORDERS IS "JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS" AND IS NO EXCUSE!!!

your convoluted spew is really quite SAD...
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
66. No they would be guilty but couldn't be prosecuted, and yes things like this happened
A close analogy would be the role of FBI informants within the Ku Klux Klan who were recruited to provide intelligence to the federal government.

Some of them engaged in illegal acts against African Americans.

Think of undercover agents infiltrated into the mafia. Ever seen the movie Donnie Brasco?

Some criminal acts simply can't be prosecuted because they were orchestrated and condoned by the Justice Department.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. The elephant in the room is the Geneva Convention.
Are you telling me these CIA agents didn't realize they were breaking the Geneva Convention?

I'm no lawyer, law scholar or any way related to one but even I know/knew waterboarding (for example) is against the Geneva Convention. And repeatedly slamming a suspect's head into the wall over and over had to raise some eyebrows about the legality vs. the Geneva Convention as another example.

I just don't buy these were naive CIA agents just following "legal" (cough - think Nazi Germany and their perfectly "legal" actions) opinions written out for them. It's possible they could walk if they were prosecuted. Quite possible but I believe their case wouldn't be as open and shut as you paint it to be. There's an enormous body of work out there that deals with torture. CIA agents in particular have to know about that and I don't buy that they didn't.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. filed under no shit
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
114. Holmes, Sherlock Holmes
Still I agree the higher ups and the highest (Cheney/Rummy) being prosecuted is KEY.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
35. No, the elephant is still torture itself.
There is no law okaying torture just for prisoners. Looking to the Geneva Convention is avoiding the immorality of torture under any circumstances.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
46. The problem with that is its not the US's job to enforce the Geneva convention
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 04:32 PM by Egnever
by all mean try those people under the geneva convention but you cant do it in US courts. It will need to go to the hague or wherever they hold such trials.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1616181
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #46
73. You're wrong.
It IS our job to enforce the Geneva Convention.
Once a treaty is signed, it becomes LAW for each signatory.
The Convention is even explicit about the obligation to prosecute Torturers and War Criminals.

The Obama White House does NOT have the option to not prosecute.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
11. You are debating the legality of
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 01:16 PM by walldude
torture Of whether this or that person tortured before or after they got their "legal opinion". Sorry I can't abide by this. Your opinion is well represented and well written but this country has gotten to a p0int where there is actually a debate about torture and whether it was "legal" . That in and of itself is so fucked up I can't even begin to wrap my brain around it.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. The debate is not about the legality of torture

The debate is whether you believe in the Fifth Amendment or not.

Maybe we can do without it.

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/37/37.F3d.1197.93-2139.93-1307.html

Entrapment by estoppel, grounded in the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment, is a defense that is rarely available. In essence, it applies when, acting with actual or apparent authority, a government official affirmatively assures the defendant that certain conduct is legal and the defendant reasonably believes that official. United States v. Austin, 915 F.2d 363, 366 (8th Cir.1990), cert. denied, 499 U.S. 977, 111 S.Ct. 1626, 113 L.Ed.2d 722 (1991). The Supreme Court first recognized this defense in Raley v. Ohio, 360 U.S. 423, 79 S.Ct. 1257, 3 L.Ed.2d 1344 (1959), in which the Court reversed state law contempt convictions of those who refused to answer questions because they relied on an erroneous statement by a state official that they were protected by the self-incrimination clause of the state constitution. The Court continued to apply the doctrine in Cox v. Louisiana, 379 U.S. 559, 568-69, 85 S.Ct. 476, 482-83, 13 L.Ed.2d 487 (1965), in which the Court again reversed the defendants' state law convictions for picketing across from the courthouse because a responsible state official had permitted the picketing. The common thread in the caselaw applying the defense is an affirmative misrepresentation of the law by a government official, reasonable reliance, and action upon that misrepresentation by a defendant. When the defense is applicable, it prevents the government from punishing one who reasonably followed the misstatement of one of its own officials. To allow such punishment "would be to sanction the most indefensible sort of entrapment by the State--convicting a citizen for exercising a privilege which the State clearly had told him was available to him." Raley, 360 U.S. at 438, 79 S.Ct. at 1266.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. "and the defendant reasonably believes that official"
unless the CIA is staffed entirely by very dim witted clods, your argument falls apart right there.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. now you are asking for a judgment of peoples intelligence
and foreknowledge.Good luck with that. Unfortunately the law doesn't give a whit how outraged you are about how it is applied just that it is applied consistently.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #47
59. Applied Consistently?
The only fucking constant here is hypocrisy. And in spite of the OP claiming this is not a debate, it is. A debate on the merits of prosecuting or not prosecuting torture. To me, IMHO the fact that people feel the need to defend a person who was willing to torture someone is disgusting. Willing, ordered, whatever, it was and is wrong, and this "non-debate" is disgusting.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. I'm starting to wonder if this is intentional

The debate is not about the legality of torture, and the OP is simply stating that the issue is not the "Nuremberg Defense".

If you want to debate the actual legal issues being raised, that's fine, but at this point there are those who insist on debating points that don't actually relate to the substantive legal issue involved.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
34. No, I am not.
Torture is illegal. Done. Period. End of sentence. Get it?

That does not always make it prosecutable. I did happen to spend some time explaining that in the OP.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. I see what you are saying.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 01:19 PM by dkf
These officers were assured that they were acting lawfully, therefore in the United States they are not prosecutable based on US law.

I guess if the ICC is asserting they broke International law then they would have to try them.

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
13. The Boston Globe...
...sez:

But Obama must consider the precedent he would set if one Justice Department prosecuted CIA officers for acts that a previous Justice Department had ruled within the law. Were that to happen, intelligence officers could not have faith in the validity of any future legal opinion from the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel. All such opinions would have to be considered questionable and subject to revision.

Besides, final responsibility for torture lies with those who authorized it; they deserve no chance to push the blame toward interrogators on the ground. For that reason, Congress should be investigating the Bush administration's use of techniques that fit the definition of torture.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2009/04/19/how_america_turned_to_torture/
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. yeah how could that work?
The next time some DOJ asshole says 'its just fine to go torture those people over there' the CIA officer just might refuse to do it. Where would we be then?

:sarcasm:


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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
39. Tell me...
Do you know why we have the concept of entrapment in our legal system?

Do you know what it is?

You can't have the government authority on law enforcement telling it's citizens they're acting legally then turning around and prosecuting them for believing them. Which is exactly what you are advocating.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. You can;t have one branch of the executive providing cover
for another branch of the executive and not consider it a criminal conspiracy to commit crimes against humanity, for which everyone involved should be prosecuted, top to bottom.

Everyone knew that what they were doing was illegal.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Do You Or Do You Not Know What Entrapment Means?
Your response simply dodged the issue. And your flat assertion that everyone involved knew it was illegal is unsubstantiated no matter how much you bold the letters.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Everyone involved knew it was illegal
Unless of course it is your opinion that the CIA and the DOJ are staffed with actual morons. Everyone involved, top to bottom, knew that torture violated us and international law. You know that, I know that, we all know that. Inventing legal dodges wherein a conspiracy to commit crimes against humanity that involved providing 'get out of jail free' memos from the DOJ to the CIA cannot be prosecuted across the board (I certainly would object to only prosecuting the CIA agents and administrators involved, everyone in the DOJ and the White House involved must also be charged, becomes an illegal entrapment would be laughable under any other circumstances.

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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Sorry that doesn't fly
they specifically asked if it was legal and were told that it was. So everyone that read those opinions had every right to expect that it was legal. You and I think it was torture but that doesn't mean the people who deal with this stuff every day think it is and you would have one hell of a time proving that they did especially since they specifically asked the DOJ for an opinion on it.
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kas125 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
91. If they had any intelligence whatsoever, they would know that
no country can make laws which say torture is legal and they would not have followed their orders. You can't make a law allowing torture any more than you can make one legalizing genocide or slavery. It simply cannot be done.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. So, so tiring...
Please read the memos.

If you want to discuss the topic, at least read the subject matter for god's sake.

This is NOT about whether they thought torture was legal. This is about whether they thought what they were doing legally WAS torture... and thus illegal. Nobody is arguing that the DOJ had the authority to legalize torture. You're wrestling with strawmen.

Torture is illegal. The DOJ knew torture was illegal. The CIA operatives knew torture was illegal. Not the point.

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kas125 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. Sorry to tire you, you pompous ass, but I was replying to the
following statement:

"You can't have the government authority on law enforcement telling it's citizens they're acting legally then turning around and prosecuting them for believing them. Which is exactly what you are advocating."

Perhaps it's you who should read before posting so as not to "tire" anyone who happens to read what you write.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. And you replied...
...with a nonsense unrelated statement that had nothing to do with my argument. One that has been repeated a dozen times in this thread. I read it just fine thank you.

Hence the tiring part.
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kas125 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. Okay, continue to be wrong and not accept anyone's facts
or arguments if that's what you choose. But EVERY ONE from the bottom to the very top knew that what they were doing was torture and they knew that what they were doing was something that simply cannot be made legal. They took out insurance policies - they knew. They all deserve to be in prison.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #99
104. Your "facts" have nothing to do with the argument.
I didn't deny a single thing you said. It was just IRRELEVANT. Understand?
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #39
119. Its not entrapment when it is part
of a criminal conspiracy.
The fact that the memos were ever written are evidence of criminal conspiracy.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
60. All such opinions, the opinions of legal counsel, the opinions of
attorney generals, are just that, opinions, they are not binding and are not the law. Can you go to an attorney, ask his opinion and follow it to violate the law?

This isn't rocket science, everyone knows that torture is illegal - putting a new name to torturous acts doesn't negate the act.

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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #60
69. Thank you for the reality check. It really isn't rocket science despite all the attempts to muddy
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 11:13 AM by glitch
the waters.

The DOJ have to try their cases in COURTS. THEY do not get to determine what is or is not legal, ultimately the COURTS (IOW the PEOPLE on the juries in the courts and the judges) DO. BTW that is true for the entire Executive Office as well.
Some of us old-timers still call that Checks and Balances.

Any government employee who follows the dictates of a branch of government to break a law does so at their own risk. There is no "cover" there. "We were only following orders" has absolutely nothing to do with "lawful" orders or otherwise, it is no defense, period. This is why quite a few CIA employees sought their own counsel, quite a few resigned in protest and so on. They took their responsibilities as informed citizens very seriously.

edit: this doesn't mean I disagree with Obama's using the small fry to go after the big fish, I do. I just don't think the OP's position holds water.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #60
78. Ahem...
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 01:32 PM by gcomeau
Can you go to an attorney, ask his opinion and follow it to violate the law?


The question is if you can go to the Department Of Justice, ask their opinion in good faith as to the legality of an action, and then use that opinion to violate the law.

And the answer is, believe it or not, YES. As pointed out elsewhere in this thread if a government legal authority which you have every right to believe knows what they are talking about tells you an action is legal and you listen to them and act on that basis, for the government to then turn around and prosecute you for listening to them is called entrapment by estoppel. The government can't prosecute people for doing things the government itself told them were legal.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Now that your back, I have another question....
I completely get your point. I happen to disagree with it, but I've been very clear I am not an attorney.

That said, I'll proceed.

The US has signed onto the UN Convention (Geneva Conventions). We are bound to abide by those provisions including "no torture", and thus (as I've read elsewhere) Americans are bound to abide by that law. And Obama is also bound to prosecute anyone who violates that law. Regardless of what the thugs at the DOJ signed off on, do I understand you correctly in that you believe the DOJ's opinion supercedes that treaty?

And there is the whole problematic area of who defines who is a terrorist. Many of the people we tortured were never even charged with anything. We virtually suspended habeous corpus which gets us into a whole other kettle of worms.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #79
85. Don't forget, there is federal law that makes torture illegal
it is illegal to order it, to authorize it and to torture.

Shame the OP doesn't realize that the DOJ cannot tell agents that it is okay to violate US Code. Makes me wonder why he is posting as if he has such insight.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #79
88. Answer...
No, DOJ opinion doesn't override the Geneva conventions. But the people that have to be prosecuted for violating them are the opinion writers who told those officers they were NOT violating them, not the people who believed them.

At least in the U.S.

If an international court wants to try for prosecutions of the CIA officers too they can maybe, possibly pull it off since they aren't guilty of entrapping those officers into committing the breach in the first place, but the U.S. Justice Department can't touch them because they were responsible for the violation in the first place. (And there's no way they'll ever be turned over to an international court anyway, I think we all know that)

The Habeas issue is no different. Yes, there was illegal activity on that front too. Yes, it needs to be prosecuted. And it's the same people who need to be the targets of that prosecutions, the people at Justice who ran around crafting these ridiculous memos telling people they weren't violating any laws when they most certainly should have known better than to write those opinions.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #88
94. See here's where I get hung up (and forgive my redundancy, I just want to understand your POV)
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 02:34 PM by riderinthestorm
You said, "No, DOJ opinion doesn't override the Geneva conventions. But the people that have to be prosecuted for violating them are the opinion writers who told those officers they were NOT violating them, not the people who believed them. At least in the U.S."

But the people who violated it had to know they were violating the Geneva conventions. If the DOJ doesn't override the Geneva Conventions, these guys don't get a "pass" on this just cause they had a "note from their attorney" (heh, I have to admit, that gave me a chuckle). It only stands to reason from my perspective that they're ALL on the hook: torturers and the authors of the memos. Entrapment can't apply because they were all violating the "greater law" of the Geneva Conventions.

And as Merh points out, there is a federal law already on the books about torture. Surely the CIA guys also knew this, presumably since more than a few quit before they were "ordered" to torture (I use that term lightly since none of them were presumably military), some got lawyers once they were torturing, and yes - some were even torturing before the memos were written (and I presume Obama isn't issuing them immunity on any level?!)
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #94
103. The thing is...
But the people who violated it had to know they were violating the Geneva conventions.


How did they "have" to know any such thing? The Justice Department, who are supposed to be the experts on exactly that matter, specifically told them they weren't violating them. That what they were doing didn't legally qualify as torture and was thus fair game.

The Justice Department on the other hand has no such excuse.

And it doesn't matter if they knew there was a federal law on the books about torture either. Once again, the Justice Department specifically assured them that what they were doing was NOT legally considered to BE torture and that that was the reason it was legal. And they're supposed to be the authority on the matter, you're supposed to be able to believe the Justice Department when it tells you whether something is legal or not.

If if can be shown that anyone KNEW that the Justice Department was full of crap then they can possibly be prosecuted. But if you can't prove that you can't prosecute... and good luck proving it, unless someone wrote it in their diary or something there's no way you're pulling that off.

Now, we can think they knew. But that's worth exactly nothing in a courtroom. If some people quit instead of going through with it, fine. That's evidence THEY knew. But they quit, so you're not prosecuting them. And if some of them hired lawyers? If any court in the nation started considering hiring legal representation to be evidence of knowledge of guilt what do you suppose would happen to the justice system?


As for the ones torturing before the memos... I'd be in favor of going after them.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #103
109. Ok. Thanks.
I completely get your perspective but I guess I just disagree that there won't be anything out there (or even such a little amount of material) that indicates that these guys didn't "know". I believe that Obama's closed the door on prosecutions prematurely. I honestly believe there's information out there - I'd even go so far as to say there's written, tangible memos and information out there - that would prove that everyone top to bottom knew they were doing wrong. I'm not persuaded by your entrapment argument. I believe I understand your position fully but the Geneva Conventions and their universality are a very, very compelling counterweight.

And I guess that's what sticks in everyone's craw. I'm guessing even you suspect there's stuff out there that the torturers recognized that, and knew it could be used, or Obama wouldn't have slammed this door shut tight. Without prosecution there's no way to know. And honestly? I think we deeply hurt our national reputation and authority by not prosecuting. Even if the prosecutions are shot down, going through with putting them on trial would demonstrate that THIS admin was willing to go to bat for accountability. That's worth a lot internationally. And honestly, personally for me as well.

A judge and jury should hear this and decide. The DOJ legal opinions should be weighed in court, not pre-emptively utilized as a get-out-of-jail free card. And don't even get me started on how we've now lost the ability to use the threat of a potential trial as leverage on these torturers towards getting the "big guys" who actually authorized it all...

I'm losing faith in Obama to do the right thing on this. I hear those who say he's a chess player and this is just one move and now it's up to us, the people, to push him into prosecutions blah, blah, blah. It's just very discouraging.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. Wrong, the DOJ is just the attorney for the people - they are not the attorney
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 01:48 PM by merh
for the president -- they give OPINIONS to federal agencies, but their opinions are not BINDING and are definitely NOT LAW. Legislature makes the laws, courts interpret, executive enforce - Separation of powers doctrine.

It is the court, either a judge in a bench proceeding or the jury after hearing all the evidence and considering the law, that determines the legality or illegality of an action.

Yes, the government can prosecute - gonzales, bybee and yo are no longer part of the government, they broke the law - CIA agents quit and refused to break the law rather than torture, despite the memos.

And the memos were written AFTER THE FACT, to cover asses.

If a district attorney breaks the law, can he be prosecuted for doing so and for telling his subordinates to do so?

That is all the DOJ is, they are not above the law.

The CIA is a civilian agency, if folks didn't want to follow the illegal orders (and every dumb fuck knows that torture is illegal and the the 8th amendment prohibits cruel and unusual punishment (or punishment before guilt determined)) they can quit, they are not bound by the illegal actions. The Military has always maintained that torture was illegal and forbidden, they instructed their people to ignore the DOJ memos.

YOu really need to stop floundering for justifications of the crimes, they accused may claim the defense of "the DOJ said it was cool", but that would be a defense and not necessarily accepted by the jury.

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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #82
90. For cripes sake...
What post are you replying to? It can't possibly be mine.

1. I never even suggested, let alone stated, that DOJ opinions were law.

2. I specifically stated the actions WERE illegal and that the DOJ opinions did not change that.

3. I specifically addressed the "after the fact" issue in the OP when I said anyone who was pulling this crap before those opinions were issued should be facing a trial.

4. Nothing about my argument had anything to do with "orders" except to point out that this WASN'T a "just following orders" situation.

Etc...

It's like you're having an argument with a figment of your imagination and deciding to post your side of it in response to my posts for some reason.



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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #90
93. Your waffling doesn't make you a figment, it makes you wishy washy
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 02:26 PM by merh
but you are really posting and my responses are appropriate to the posts I replied to.

From your OP

What we have is people who were told BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT that they were following LAWFUL orders. And they are supposed to be able to believe the Justice Department knows what the hell they are talking about when it comes to this stuff.

Like I said, any dumb clown knows torture is illegal, abusing detained persons is illegal, cruel and unusual punishment is against the constitution. There is no such thing as a lawful illegal order, an attorney, even the DOJ, cannot give someone permission to violate the US Code.

The CIA and the DOJ attorneys that wrote the crap can use the "following orders" as a defense, but that does not mean they should not be tried.

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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #93
96. Like speaking to a wall, I swear.
Yes, everyone knows torture is illegal. Now get this through your skull... that is NOT THE ISSUE.

The issue is whether they knew that what they were doing met the legal definition OF torture. And the DOJ assured them it didn't and that they were therefore acting legally. For that, the people responsible at the DOJ should be prosecuted, but the operatives who took their direction on the matter in good faith are in the clear as far as any prosecutions under U.S. law are concerned.

The DOJ CAN NOT prosecute people for taking an action the DOJ itself told them was legal. That's entrapment. They're not allowed to do that. Period. Done. End of story. Any of this getting through?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. Wrong again, the memos were written to excuse the wrong and to circumvent the law.
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 02:42 PM by merh
Torture is defined in the US Code and by international law.

18 US Code 2340:

As used in this chapter—

(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;

(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—

(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;

(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;

==================

Pretty simple, isn't it. They knew they were torturing, they were seeking legal loopholes around it.

FYI - Sanctions: a. A law or decree.
b. The penalty for noncompliance specified in a law or decree.



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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #98
106. Still clueless...
Let's try this one more time...

I KNOW TORTURE IS ILLEGAL

under U.S. law. And I know how it's defined. That has NOTHING to do with my argument. Not one single damn thing. I'm not denying it's illegal. and I'm not arguing that what they did didn't meet the damn definitions. They tortured. It was illegal. They STILL can't be fucking prosecuted.

Read for comprehension.

The Justice Department told them that what they were doing did not meet the legal definitions of torturing and that what they were doing was therefore legal, so the Justice Department became responsible for the act, which means the Justice Department CAN'T prosecute them for it. How much simpler can I make this?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #106
107. And they knew that what they were doing was torture
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 03:07 PM by merh
They (most of them)have gone through years of training, you act as if they just "became" agents when Bush took office.

The justice department cannot absolve criminals of crimes, they cannot say what is or is not legal, that it up to a court. If it were as easy as you claim, the DOJ would never have to file lawsuits, now would they.

The DOJ only can give opinions and in this instance, they wrote opinions to absolve behavior that had already occurred and to justify more torture.

There is nothing lawful about their opinions and/or the CIA actions.

Stop trying to explain it away, you are doing a piss poor job and just prove how stupid the efforts to do so are.

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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #107
134. Just keep repeating that, that'll make it a legally demonstratable peice of evidence.
The JUSTICE DEPARTMENT told them it was not legally considered torture. In writing. They have an ironclad defense.

And stop repeating that torture is illegal as if anyone is arguing the point. NOBODY IS. I'm getting tired of having to work my replies in between your arguments with your imaginary friend.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #134
139. They do not, the legal opinions are NOT THE LAW
they know from their training and their experience, from their basic education, that the constitution of the US does not allow abuse, cruel and unusual punishment, that the federal laws and international laws forbid torture.

How many times must you be reminded, the DOJ is not the government, they are just lawyers and the legal opinions were just opinions, they were not binding and as written, they themselves point that out.

You are really pathetic, get something stuck in your head and you think you are all knowing, you haven't a clue how the justice system works, what the laws provide or how one tries a federal criminal case.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #139
150. For the last goddamn time.
NOBODY is saying Justice department opinions ARE the law. If you want to have an argument with a figment of your imagination kindly go do it somewhere else.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. I'm debunking your talking points.
Can you not read what you wrote, do you not stand by your words?

Just keep repeating that, that'll make it a legally demonstratable peice of evidence.

The JUSTICE DEPARTMENT told them it was not legally considered torture. In writing. They have an ironclad defense.

And stop repeating that torture is illegal as if anyone is arguing the point. NOBODY IS. I'm getting tired of having to work my replies in between your arguments with your imaginary friend.


The Justice Department put their opinions in writing and gave legal counsel, they cannot pass the law, they offer only legal views, nothing they can do can make the torturers actions legal. Federal law and international law make it illegal, their training told them it was illegal, they knew what they were doing was illegal.

The only one using their imagination would be you, you imagine you know what you are talking about but you are fucking out of your league and defending criminals.



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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #152
153. NO. YOU. AREN'T.
You're arguing with something I never said. Get that through your thick, thick skull. That text you just quoted? It DOES NOT SAY that those opinions constituted the freaking law.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #153
154. LOL, I quoted back to you what you said.
Edited on Tue Apr-21-09 06:42 PM by merh
You are just too stupid to even understand what you are typing.

And typing in all caps is juvenile, but is to be expected from you. YOu don't have a clue about the issues and you keep posting shit.

Have you held your breath and stomped your feet too?

You are mistaken and you are too dense to see how flawed your reasoning is.

Here, read a conservative judge's opinion:

JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Five Things You Should Know About the ‘Torture’ Memos

By Judge Andrew Napolitano
FOX News Senior Judicial Analyst

No. 1. I have read the 175 pages of legal memoranda (”the memos”) that the Department of Justice (DoJ) released last week. They consist of letters written by Bush DoJ officials to the Deputy General Counsel of the CIA concerning the techniques that may be used by American intelligence agents when interrogating “high value” detainees at facilities outside the U.S. The memos describe in vivid, gut-wrenching detail the procedures that the CIA apparently inquired about. The memos then proceed to authorize every procedure asked about, and to commend the CIA for taking the time to ask.

No. 2. In the process of explaining to the CIA Deputy General Counsel just what his folks could do in order to extract information from uncooperative detainees, it is immediately apparent that the writers of the memos are attempting to find snippets of language from other memoranda that they or their colleagues have prepared and from unrelated judicial opinions that justify everything that the CIA wants to do.

This is not rocket science and it is not art. Everyone knows torture when they see it.

The bias in favor of permitting torture may easily be concluded from a footnote in one of the memos. In that footnote, the author, now-federal judge Jay Bybee, declines to characterize such notorious medieval torture techniques as the thumbscrew and the rack as “torture.” With that incredible mindset, he proceeds to do his Orwellian best to define away such terms as “pain,” “suffering,” and “inhumane” in such a way as to require that the interrogators produce near death experiences in order to have their behavior come under the proscriptions of the federal statute prohibiting torture, and the Convention (treaty) Against Torture, which was negotiated by and signed in behalf of the U.S. by President George H.W. Bush.

No. 3. The logic in the memos is simple: The government may utilize the ten procedures inquired about (all of which were publicly known except confinement on a coffin, bound and gagged, and in the presence of insects), so long as no one dies or comes close to death. This conclusion is startling in the case of walling (banging a detainee’s head against a solid but moveable wall) and waterboarding (near drowning) since the federal government’s own physicians, cited in the memos themselves, have concluded that both techniques are always a near occasion of death. The conclusion is also startling since it fails to account for numerous federal and state prosecutions, and prosecutions in Thailand — where these torture sessions apparently occurred — that have defined torture according to its generally accepted meaning:

“Any intentionally inflicted cruel or inhumane or degrading treatment, unauthorized by a court of law, perpetrated for the punishment of the victim, to extract statements from the victim, or to gratify the perpetrator.”

This universally-accepted definition makes no reference and has no condition that anything goes short of a near occasion of death.

No. 4. The memos also fail to account for the Geneva Conventions, which the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled govern American treatment of all foreign detainees, lawful or unlawful. The third of those conventions PROHIBITS TOUCHING the detainee in any way, other than for the purpose of moving him from place to place, if he refuses to go voluntarily and when told to do so.

No. 5. The memos place Attorney General Holder, who argued for their release, in an untenable situation. He has stated under oath, at his confirmation hearings, that waterboarding is torture and torture is prohibited by numerous federal laws. He has also taken an oath to uphold all federal laws, not just those that are politically expedient from time to time. He is correct and he must do his moral and legal duty to reject any Nuremberg defense. This is not rocket science and it is not art. Everyone knows torture when they see it; and no amount of twisted logic can detract from its illegal horror, its moral antipathy, and its attack at core American values.

http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/04/21/napolitano_torture_memos/
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #154
155. It's like you don't speak English or something...
I have not once... EVER... said that the justice department had the ability to make law. I have not once, EVER, said that the justice department opinions constituted law. the text you quoted said no such thing. My argument does not require it. And in the goddamn OP I specifically said, and I quote:

"That doesn't make what they did right, or moral, or legal"

Are you capable of comprehending that when I say it DIDN'T make torture legal that I'm obviously NOT saying the exact opposite, that it DID make torture legal? You are at least able to recognize the difference between two directly opposing statements?

The reason those Justice Department opinions make it impossible to prosecute the CIA agents, as has been explained to you over, and over, and over, and over... is because in issuing them the Justice Department created an ironclad, textbook case of entrapment by estoppel. The CIA agents received, from no less a government legal authority than the United States Justice Department itself, in writing, assurance that the actions they were taking fell within the law. An entrapment in estoppel defense requires the following criteria be met:

1. The defendant must actually rely upon the official’s assurances in choosing his or her course of conduct - CHECK
2. The defendant must have a reasonable belief that he is acting “pursuant to official authorization” to commit the crime or crimes with which he has been charged - CHECK

It's a slam dunk. You can't get any more official than written authorization from the Justice Department. It would be purely stupid to bring charges under those conditions.

NONE of that... not one single damn thing, involves any claim that the justice Department opinions could somehow make law. Do you understand? This has NOTHING to do with some bizarre idea that the Justice Department could somehow legalize torture. Nobody is saying that.

and that article you just quoted? Chock full of reasons why people like Yoo and Bybee need to be prosecuted. None of that however is going to get you to a prosecution of the CIA officers who relied on those memos.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #155
156. They don't have the ability to tell the agents that abuse of
detainees is legal - that it is not torture.

They can give opinions, but their opinions are not binding.

The agents know what is torture, the memos did not cover their asses or give them permission to violate the law, the DOJ does not have that authority.

It is not entrapment because those agents that followed the memos were predisposed to do so (or had tortured prior to the memos).

You are clueless and all of your struggles have done nothing more than frustrate you. I've been laughing my ass off at your twisted efforts to defend the crimes without appearing to be a torture apologist.

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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #156
157. Yes, they DO have that ability.
They don't have the ability to actually make it legal, but they rather obviously have the ability to tell people it is. You're being obtuse. They should end up being prosecuted themselves for doing it, but they have the ability. Demonstrated by the fact that they did it.

Entrapment by estoppel does not require that the official involved has the capability to actually allow a person to commit an illegal act. It requires that the person relying on their advice has reasonable grounds to believe that when they were told they were not committing an illegal act they weren't being lied to or misled. When the person they're relying on advice for is the US Justice Department good luck denying they had no grounds for that belief. It's not happening.

And you keep mentioning torture before the memos as if I hadn't already said this... once again all the way back in the OP:

"Anyone who conducted torture before those opinions were provided? Haul them into court".

And yet here I am, days later, still dealing with people conducting themselves as if they never read half of what I actually posted but are outraged at something they apparently imagined I said... even after having reality explained to them a dozen times. It's a little irritating.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #157
158. No, they do not.
The memos were written to justify the crimes, to explain them away. The DOJ doesn't have that power and nothing in those opinions is based in the law.

"near occasion of death" - what a bunch of crap - the legal definitions do not limit the acts to that.

==============
(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
==============

“Any intentionally inflicted cruel or inhumane or degrading treatment, unauthorized by a court of law, perpetrated for the punishment of the victim, to extract statements from the victim, or to gratify the perpetrator.”

--------------

The CIA agents have been trained that our constitution prohibits cruel and unusual punishment and that torture is illegal. They know that -

They were predisposed to commit the crime and were not entrapped simply because the DOJ gave them memos saying they could abuse. They just wanted permission to do the crimes, Bybee and Yo gave them the permission but they had no right to do that.

It is up to a court to decide if the defense of entrapment is available to the accused and up to the jury to buy that defense and acquit.



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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #158
159. Really?
The Justice Department does not have the ABILITY to say something that is not true?

If you work for the justice department your ability to say something that is wrong is surgically removed perhaps?

You've just gone beyond ridiculous.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #159
160. It is you that is ridiculous
How many experts need to look at the memos to tell you that they were cover ups/cover ass documents that were not founded in law - that they were not supported by either legal or scientific fact - there was no legal basis for the conclusions.

The DOJ cannot tell an agent that they can break the law, they don't have that power.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #160
161. For the love of GOD...
I FREAKING AGREE that the goddamn memos were bullshit. I AGREE that they were not properly founded in the law. I AGREE they had no defensible legal basis.

IT DOESN'T MATTER.

the ONLY goddamn thing that is required for the entrapment to occur is for the agents they were issuing them to to BELIEVE they were valid opinions from a government legal authority who knew what they were talking about. Period. That is IT. They don't have to actually BE fucking valid. If they WERE valid then it would be impossible for it to be an entrapment because there would be no crime!!!!!!

How the hell do you still not understand this?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #161
162. It does matter
Edited on Wed Apr-22-09 10:54 AM by merh
the memos were to justify crimes that had already been committed, the memos were withdrawn as of Dec 03, the DOD rejected the memos, the SOS's legal counsel opposed the memos, your position is flawed, full of faulty reasoning and not based in law or fact, just like the memos.

They were not binding, a few attorneys in the DOJ could not tell the CIA that their conduct did not constitute a crime, did not equal torture, the DOJ doesn't have that power.

It is not "did the agents believe it was cool because the memo said it was" - it was were the agents committing the crimes before, were they disposed to torture and abuse before the memos, had they been trained in what the constitution provides and what our federal laws say regarding torture.

There is no slam dunk defense and even if it is offered as a defense, it is up to a jury to buy it.

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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #162
163. There's no point even trying anymore...
...it is impossible to make you understand the basic concepts involved here.

To close:

1. The rejecting of the memos you spoke of only has relevance to any action taken AFTER the rejection. Anything else would involve ex post facto prosecution. You cannot require that the CIA agents be able to tell the future and know that at some time in that future the legal direction they had received was going to be negated.

2. I already pointed out to you... repeatedly... that I am not fucking talking about torture that occurred before the memos were written. You appear intent on absolutely ignoring everything I say.

3. Yes, the DOJ CAN tell people their conduct isn't a crime. It doesn't MAKE it not a crime, but they are perfectly capable of telling them it isn't one. What the hell do you think happens when someone joins the DOJ? Their tongues get cut out so they can't speak and their hands are bound so they can't type or write? Your continued insistence that they can't do this is completely mind boggling. And the telling, so long as it is done in a believable manner, is the ONLY thing required to make it entrapment. Another thing I have already explained to you a dozen times now that you either refuse to acknowledge or are somehow actively blocking from your memory.

This is my last response to you, my full allotment of patience for speaking to someone who refuses to listen to a word I'm saying and keeps repeatedly making declarations that I'm wrong about something I'm NOT EVEN SAYING is all used up.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #163
164. Wrong on all counts - I've read your posts and you change
Edited on Wed Apr-22-09 01:40 PM by merh
position as often as you post. When your reasoning has been proven flawed, you shift positions and/or you start accusing me of being clueless and/or not reading your statements. When your logic has been shown to be faulty, your position weak, you attack me (or anyone else that dared to question you). That proves how weak your argument and/or your ability to reason. Others have pointed out how mistaken and flawed your reasoning is yet you continue to post nonsense peppered with juvenile personal attacks.

A lawyer for the DOJ is just a lawyer, he is not the court, he is not a god, he is not capable of passing laws or establishing what is law. His opinions are not binding and when he is wrong, he is responsible and all that followed the flaw thinking are responsible if they knew the actions were illegal and just got the memos to justify their crimes.

If it were as simple as you think, the DOJ would never need to file suit to make cities, agencies, corporations follow the law. They cannot make the law, they have opinions but it is up to the courts to determine what is law. There was no entrapment, the ones who tortured were predisposed to do so, they were doing it any way and continued to do so even when they knew they were wrong. The agents that did not torture, that left their jobs, took the reassignments, retired early knew the actions were crimes, that is why they did not abide by or rely on the memos. It is not rocket science, torture is torture, no matter how you try to explain it away or forgive it.

There is no entrapment, Yoo & Bybee were not the entire DOJ, they were only lawyers working for it, as such, the rest of the DOJ is not bound by their bullshit opinions not founded in law or fact (much like your posts).
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #164
165. And... ignore. -nt
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #165
166. LOL, you never could be honest or mature.
You just broke your word - don't you remember you posted earlier "This is my last response to you."

:rofl:

Guess you just hate to be wrong.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. No duress. No ignorance. Not required to follow orders.
"the case of those CIA officers is NOT just a matter of people following unlawful orders" - a civilian agency does not issue orders that must be obeyed. The CIA is not a military organization. Being told to injure another human being, even if the AG says 'go for it', does not excuse the act of assault.

Nobody was holding a gun to any torturer's head forcing them to torture anyone. These people committed clearly criminal acts under no duress whatsoever.

The people at the top who wrote the memos should of course be prosecuted as should every person who committed or directly assisted torture of another human being.

We hanged Germans for this shit, and they legalized every damn thing they did.

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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Bingo
Everything done in Auschwitz was "legal" under German law. Were you tortured on the infamous Boger swing in Block 11? That was legal, too, as far as the Third Reich was concerned.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
53. no we did not hang germans
The international courts did, Not our. Same thing applies here as it did in germany at the time as far as our courts are concerned they acted legally just like as far as germany;s courts were concerned the germans acted legally. The germans did not prosecute their soldiers either.

I get that you are pissed about this stuff as am I but it doesn't take away from the legal conundrum whatsoever. The AG in the past can and has excused assault think slavery. The definition of assault is constantly in flux as our society progresses, We took a big step backward in this case.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
28. I believe you are wrong!
..torture is not legal no matter who tells them it is!
Message:
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/17/the-bybee-... /
The Bybee Memo Can’t Be Used for Good Faith Defense on Water-Boarding
By: emptywheel Friday April 17, 2009 10:37 am

The May 10, 2005 "Techniques" memo makes it clear that the torturers who claim the Bybee memo legalized their water-boarding of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah are wrong.

That's because the torturers didn't do what the memo authorized. In a footnote on page 41, it says:

The IG Report noted that in some cases the waterboard was used with far greater frequency than initially indicated, see IG Report at 5, 44, 46, 103-04, and also that it was used in a different manner. See id. at 37 ("he waterboard technique ... was different from the technique described in the DoJ opinion and used in the SERE training. The difference was the manner in which the detainee's breathing was obstructed. At the SERE school and in the DoJ opinion, the subject's airflow is disrupted by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the Agency Interrogator ... applied large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose. One of the psychologists/interrogators acknowledged that the Agency's use of the technique is different from that used in SERE training because it is "for real--and is more poignant and convincing.") see also id. at 14 n14. The Inspector General further reported that "OMS contends that the expertise of the SERE waterboard experience is so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant. Consequently, according to OMS, there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used by the psychologist/interrogators was either efficacious or medically safe." Id at 21 n26. We have carefully considered the IG Report and discussed it with OMS personnel. As noted, OMS input has resulted in a number of changes in the application of the waterboard, including limits on frequency and cumulative use of the technique. Moreover, OMS personnel are carefully instructed in monitoring this technique and are personally present whenever it is used. See OMS Guidelines at 17-20. Indeed, although physician assistants can be present when other enhanced techniques are applied, "use of the waterboard requires the presence of the physician." Id. at 9n2.

In other words, the interrogators were dumping water on AZ's and KSM's faces and repeating that treatment over and over and over.

Without any legal authorization to do so, no matter how bogus.

It's time this torturer faced some "poignant and convincing" consequences for his actions.

And note, this is precisely why the torture tapes were destroyed. CIA has admitted that the guys waterboarding Abu Zubaydah broke the law. That tape was the irrefutable evidence of who did what.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

BBC NEWS | Americas | CIA torture exemption 'illegal' CIA torture exemption 'illegal'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8006597.stm

CIA torture exemption 'illegal'

Mr Obama has banned the use of controversial interrogation techniques
US President Barack Obama's decision not to prosecute CIA agents who used torture tactics is a violation of international law, a UN expert says.

snip:

Torture trials

Mr Obama on Thursday said he would not prosecute under anti-torture laws CIA personnel who relied in good faith on Bush administration legal opinions issued after the 11 September attacks.

BUSH-ERA INTERROGATION
Waterboarding: Aimed at simulating sensation of drowning. Used on alleged 9/11 planner Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
Insect: Harmless insect to be placed with suspect in 'confinement box', suspect to be told the insect would sting. Approved for Abu Zubaydah, but not used
Walling: Detainee slammed repeatedly into false wall to create sound and shock
Sleep deprivation: Detainee shackled stading up. Used often, once for 180 hours


'Amnesty' dismays campaigners
Interrogation: Obama's approach

Mr Nowak - who is due to travel to Washington to meet with officials - said that could be a mitigating factor, but does not absolve those involved.

"The fact that you carried out an order doesn't relieve you of your responsibility," he was quoted as saying by AP news agency.

Mr Nowak, an Austrian law professor, said US courts could still try those suspected of carrying out torture, as Mr Obama has not sought an amnesty law for affected CIA personnel.



Human rights groups have criticised President Obama's decision to protect CIA interrogators, saying charges were necessary to prevent future abuses and hold people accountable.

President Obama banned the use of the controversial interrogation techniques in his first week in office.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/17/the-cia-ig...


The CIA IG Report and the Bradbury Memos
By: emptywheel Friday April 17, 2009 12:08 pm

In May 2004, CIA's Inspector General, John Helgerson, completed a report that found that the CIA's interrogation program violated the Convention Against Torture. By understanding the role of that report in the May 2005 Bradbury memos, we see just how weak Bradbury's memos are.

As Jane Mayer described, the report strongly influenced Jack Goldsmith shortly before he withdrew the August 1, 2002 Bybee memo in June 2004.

The 2004 Inspector General's report, known as a "special review," was tens of thousands of pages long and as thick as two Manhattan phone books. It contained information, according to one source, that was simply "sickening." The behavior it described, another knowledgeable source said, raised concerns not just about the detainees but also about the Americans who had inflicted the abuse, one of whom seemed to have become frighteningly dehumanized. The source said, "You couldn't read the documents without wondering, "Why didn't someone say, 'Stop!'"

Goldsmith was required to review the report in order to settle a sharp dispute that its findings had provoked between the Inspector General, Helgerson, who was not a lawyer, and the CIA's General Counsel, Scott Muller, who was. After spending months investigating the Agency's interrogation practices, the special review had concluded that the CIA's techniques constituted cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment, in violation of the international Convention Against Torture. But Muller insisted that every single action taken by the CIA toward its detainees had been declared legal by John Yoo. With Yoo gone, it fell to Goldsmith to figure out exactly what the OLC had given the CIA a green light to do and what, in fact, the CIA had done.

As Goldsmith absorbed the details, the report transformed the antiseptic list of authorized interrogation techniques, which he had previously seen, into a Technicolor horror show. Goldsmith declined to be interviewed about the classified report for legal reasons, but according to those who dealt with him, the report caused him to question the whole program. The CIA interrogations seemed very different when described by participants than they had when approved on a simple menu of options. Goldsmith had been comfortable with the military's approach, but he wasn't at all sure whether the CIA's tactics were legal. Waterboarding, in particular, sounded quick and relatively harmless in theory. But according to someone familiar with the report, the way it had been actually used was "horrible."


snip::
Yet in arguing against the IG Report, Bradbury reveals much of what the IG Report finds so problematic. It reveals:

CIA interrogators were not performing waterboarding as it had been approved in the August 2002 Bybee Memo; in particular, they were repeating the process more frequently (83 times for AZ and 183 for KSM) and using much more water than described in the Bybee Memo
By CIA's own admission, they used waterboarding with Abu Zubaydah at a time when he was already completely compliant with interrogators
No "objective" doctors had been involved in the interrogation sessions (the CIA subsequently added them to its program)
It appears that after the CIA integrated doctors into the program, they lowered, by three and a half days, the length of time a detainee could be kept awake
In other words, the Bradbury memos basically prove that waterboarding, as practiced by the CIA (as distinct from how they were describing it), was out of control in several ways (and therefore probably illegal even according to Yoo's descriptions). They also suggest that the CIA recognized they were using sleep deprivation far more than was safe, even according to their own complicit doctors. Both of the most problematic aspect of the CIA program, the Bradbury memos suggest, had been deemed unsafe as practiced.


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Bush memos parallel claim 9/11 mastermind’s children were tortured with insects

BY JOHN BYRNE

Published: April 17, 2009
Updated 6 hours ago

Bush Administration memos released by the White House on Thursday provide new insight into claims that American agents used insects to torture the young children of alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

In the memos, released Thursday, the Bush Administration White House Office of Legal Counsel offered its endorsement of CIA torture methods that involved placing an insect in a cramped, confined box with detainees. Jay S. Bybee, then-director of the OLC, wrote that insects could be used to capitalize on detainees’ fears.

The memo was dated Aug. 1, 2002. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s children were captured and held in Pakistan the following month, according to a report by Human Rights Watch. While an additional memo released Thursday claims that the torture with insects technique was never utilized by the CIA, the allegations regarding the children would have transpired when the method was authorized by the Bush Administration.

At a military tribunal in 2007, the father of a Guantanamo detainee alleged that Pakistani guards had confessed that American interrogators used ants to coerce the children of alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed into revealing their father’s whereabouts.

Read more: http://rawstory.com/08/blog/2009/04/17/bush-torture-mem ...

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Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Waterboarded 183 Times in One Month
By: emptywheel Saturday April 18, 2009 11:57 am 955
diggs
digg it

I've put this detail in a series of posts, but it really deserves a full post. According to the May 30, 2005 Bradbury memo, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003 and Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times in August 2002.

On page 37 of the OLC memo, in a passage discussing the differences between SERE techniques and the torture used with detainees, the memo explains:

The CIA used the waterboard "at least 83 times during August 2002" in the interrogation of Zubaydah. IG Report at 90, and 183 times during March 2003 in the interrogation of KSM, see id. at 91.

Note, the information comes from the CIA IG report which, in the case of Abu Zubaydah, is based on having viewed the torture tapes as well as other materials. So this is presumably a number that was once backed up by video evidence.

The same OLC memo passage explains how the CIA might manage to waterboard these men so many times in one month each (though even with these chilling numbers, the CIA's math doesn't add up).

...where authorized, it may be used for two "sessions" per day of up to two hours. During a session, water may be applied up to six times for ten seconds or longer (but never more than 40 seconds). In a 24-hour period, a detainee may be subjected to up to twelve minutes of water appliaction. See id. at 42. Additionally, the waterboard may be used on as many as five days during a 30-day approval period.

So: two two-hour sessions a day, with six applications of the waterboard each = 12 applications in a day. Though to get up to the permitted 12 minutes of waterboarding in a day (with each use of the waterboard limited to 40 seconds), you'd need 18 applications in a day. Assuming you use the larger 18 applications in one 24-hour period, and do 18 applications on five days within a month, you've waterboarded 90 times--still just half of what they did to KSM.

The CIA wants you to believe waterboarding is effective. Yet somehow, it took them 183 applications of the waterboard in a one month period to get what they claimed was cooperation out of KSM.

That doesn't sound very effective to me.

Sign the petition telling Attorney General Eric Holder to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate torture here.

Update: Here's one reason to demand a special prosecutor to investigate these actions. In addition to revealing the sheer number of times KSM and Abu Zubaydah were waterboarded, the memos reveal that the interrogators who waterboarded these men went far beyond even the expansive guidelines for torture described in the Bybee Memo, notably by dumping water onto their nose and mouth, rather than dribbing it on.

The IG Report noted that in some cases the waterboard was used with far greater frequency than initially indicated, see IG Report at 5, 44, 46, 103-04, and also that it was used in a different manner. See id. at 37 ("he waterboard technique ... was different from the technique described in the DoJ opinion and used in the SERE training. The difference was the manner in which the detainee's breathing was obstructed. At the SERE school and in the DoJ opinion, the subject's airflow is disrupted by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the Agency Interrogator ... applied large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose. One of the psychologists/interrogators acknowledged that the Agency's use of the technique is different from that used in SERE training because it is "for real--and is more poignant and convincing.")

There's been a lot of discussion about whether those who did what the OLC memos authorized should be prosecuted. But in the case of those who waterboarded KSM and Abu Zubaydah, that's irrelevant, because they did things the OLC memos didn't authorize.


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Scott Horton on Democracy Now! today:

There’s a very strange factual issue here. President Obama says that we shouldn’t prosecute them because they relied on these memos. But a factual review is going to show that the CIA was using these techniques from April 2002, and these memos were commissioned and written, the first of them, in August of 2002. So it’s quite clear in fact that CIA agents were out in the field doing these things, not relying on these memos, with the memos not even being in contemplation.”

EDIT TO ADD:
The Eichmann defense has long since been accepted as providing no excuse.

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We know from the ICRC report this technique had been used, three years before Bradbury wrote his OLC memos, with Abu Zubaydah.

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Article 2 of Geneva is very clear…there is no excuse, none, for torturing anyone who falls under the jurisdiction of a signatory…under any circumstance. There are no excuses under Geneva.

....But apparently,, there are excuses galore for some here for ignoring the laws…


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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

ImpeachBybee.org

CLICK HERE to ask Congress to impeach Jay Bybee.



The New York Times finally wants somebody impeached and it's Jay Bybee.

A Spanish judge is seeking an indictment of Jay Bybee.

Jay Bybee's "legal" memos were thrown out by the Bush administration.

Jay Bybee signed memos authorizing torture.

Jay Bybee is a federal judge with a lifetime appointment.

Lawyers have been held accountable for the crime of pretending to legalize crimes before, see: US v. Joseph Altstoetter.

Any act complicit in torture is a felony under US law.

Every single crime is in the past. "Looking forward" means looking forward to a world in which abuse and criminality cannot be deterred.

CLICK HERE to ask Congress to impeach Jay Bybee.

"I was following orders" is a Nazi excuse. CIA employees are civilians and don't get orders.

"I was following lawyers' advice" could permit absolutely anything because there is nothing a lawyer cannot be paid to say is legal.

The advice came after the torture began and the torture was never limited to the approved techniques.

The memo in which Bybee claims to legalize the torture of Abu Zubaydah itself claims only to be valid if certain facts and circumstances are true, which were not.

Secret laws produced as royal decrees are not laws at all, but their drafting can be a crime, and in the case of Bybee's memos violated the Convention Against Torture.


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http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/17/the-bybee-... /
The Bybee Memo Can’t Be Used for Good Faith Defense on Water-Boarding
By: emptywheel Friday April 17, 2009 10:37 am

The May 10, 2005 "Techniques" memo makes it clear that the torturers who claim the Bybee memo legalized their water-boarding of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah are wrong.

That's because the torturers didn't do what the memo authorized. In a footnote on page 41, it says:

The IG Report noted that in some cases the waterboard was used with far greater frequency than initially indicated, see IG Report at 5, 44, 46, 103-04, and also that it was used in a different manner. See id. at 37 ("he waterboard technique ... was different from the technique described in the DoJ opinion and used in the SERE training. The difference was the manner in which the detainee's breathing was obstructed. At the SERE school and in the DoJ opinion, the subject's airflow is disrupted by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the Agency Interrogator ... applied large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose. One of the psychologists/interrogators acknowledged that the Agency's use of the technique is different from that used in SERE training because it is "for real--and is more poignant and convincing.") see also id. at 14 n14. The Inspector General further reported that "OMS contends that the expertise of the SERE waterboard experience is so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant. Consequently, according to OMS, there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used by the psychologist/interrogators was either efficacious or medically safe." Id at 21 n26. We have carefully considered the IG Report and discussed it with OMS personnel. As noted, OMS input has resulted in a number of changes in the application of the waterboard, including limits on frequency and cumulative use of the technique. Moreover, OMS personnel are carefully instructed in monitoring this technique and are personally present whenever it is used. See OMS Guidelines at 17-20. Indeed, although physician assistants can be present when other enhanced techniques are applied, "use of the waterboard requires the presence of the physician." Id. at 9n2.

In other words, the interrogators were dumping water on AZ's and KSM's faces and repeating that treatment over and over and over.

Without any legal authorization to do so, no matter how bogus.

It's time this torturer faced some "poignant and convincing" consequences for his actions.

And note, this is precisely why the torture tapes were destroyed. CIA has admitted that the guys waterboarding Abu Zubaydah broke the law. That tape was the irrefutable evidence of who did what.

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Gen. Taguba: Accountability for torture does not stop at White House door

http://media.www.hlrecord.org/media/storage/paper609/ne ...


Major General Antonio Taguba called for an independent commission to investigate war crimes committed by senior members of the Bush Administration in remarks in Ames Courtroom on Tuesday, April 14. The event was sponsored by Physicians for Human Rights and the Human Rights Program at Harvard Law School.

Taguba, who was pressured to resign by the Bush Administration in 2007 following the 2004 leak of his report detailing abuses by U.S. armed forces in Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, declared in the preface of the 2008 Physicians for Human Rights publication "Broken Laws, Broken Lives," that, "there is no longer any doubt as to whether the administration has committed war crimes. The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account."

While the Obama Administration has "reaffirmed its commitment to valuing human rights and international law" by officially closing CIA black sites and the detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Taguba insisted that "there are a lot of stories that have yet to be told."

In an effort to make those stories known, Taguba has been travelling the country seeking to foster dialogue between human rights advocates and the nation's armed forces. According to Taguba, the two groups "share a common denominator based on ethical considerations of democratic principles." Human rights advocates seek to ensure the preservation of democratic ideals and U.S. armed forces are trained to "provide services in a manner that exemplifies America's ideals" and to protect America's value system and its' way of life, not simply to secure its borders at all costs.

-snip-

Ultimately, Taguba concluded, investigation of the Bush Administration is needed if "accountability is not to be just a hollow term." "In my opinion accountability is a condition of employment. Government leaders who chose to accept high level positions of influence ought to hold firm and be accountable."

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Article 7. The official position of defendants, whether as Heads of State or responsible officials in Government Departments, shall not be considered as freeing them from responsibility or mitigating punishment.

Article 8. The fact that the Defendant acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior shall not free him from responsibility, but may be considered in mitigation of punishment if the Tribunal determines that justice so requires.

Nuremburg Articles of War Crimes.

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http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html

CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE
and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading
Treatment or Punishment



The States Parties to this Convention,

Considering that, in accordance with the principles proclaimed in the Charter of the United Nations, recognition of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Recognizing that those rights derive from the inherent dignity of the human person,

Considering the obligation of States under the Charter, in particular Article 55, to promote universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Having regard to article 5 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and article 7 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, both of which provide that no one may be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment,
Having regard also to the Declaration on the Protection of All Persons from Being Subjected to Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, adopted by the General Assembly on 9 December 1975 (resolution 3452 (XXX)),

Desiring to make more effective the struggle against torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment throughout the world,

Have agreed as follows:


Part I
Article 1
For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.
Article 2
Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.
Article 3
No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.
For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.
Article 4
Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law. The same shall apply to an attempt to commit torture and to an act by any person which constitutes complicity or participation in torture.
Each State Party shall make these offences punishable by appropriate penalties which take into account their grave nature.
Article 5
Each State Party shall take such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over the offences referred to in article 4 in the following cases:
When the offences are committed in any territory under its jurisdiction or on board a ship or aircraft registered in that State;
When the alleged offender is a national of that State;
When the victim was a national of that State if that State considers it appropriate.
Each State Party shall likewise take such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over such offences in cases where the alleged offender is present in any territory under its jurisdiction and it does not extradite him pursuant to article 8 to any of the States mentioned in Paragraph 1 of this article.
This Convention does not exclude any criminal jurisdiction exercised in accordance with internal law.
Article 6
Upon being satisfied, after an examination of information available to it, that the circumstances so warrant, any State Party in whose territory a person alleged to have committed any offence referred to in article 4 is present, shall take him into custody or take other legal measures to ensure his presence. The custody and other legal measures shall be as provided in the law of that State but may be continued only for such time as is necessary to enable any criminal or extradition proceedings to be instituted.
Such State shall immediately make a preliminary inquiry into the facts.
Any person in custody pursuant to paragraph 1 of this article shall be assisted in communicating immediately with the nearest appropriate representative of the State of which he is a national, or, if he is a stateless person, to the representative of the State where he usually resides.
When a State, pursuant to this article, has taken a person into custody, it shall immediately notify the States referred to in article 5, paragraph 1, of the fact that such person is in custody and of the circumstances which warrant his detention. The State which makes the preliminary inquiry contemplated in paragraph 2 of this article shall promptly report its findings to the said State and shall indicate whether it intends to exercise jurisdiction.
Article 7
The State Party in territory under whose jurisdiction a person alleged to have committed any offence referred to in article 4 is found, shall in the cases contemplated in article 5, if it does not extradite him, submit the case to its competent authorities for the purpose of prosecution.
These authorities shall take their decision in the same manner as in the case of any ordinary offence of a serious nature under the law of that State. In the cases referred to in article 5, paragraph 2, the standards of evidence required for prosecution and conviction shall in no way be less stringent than those which apply in the cases referred to in article 5, paragraph 1.
Any person regarding whom proceedings are brought in connection with any of the offences referred to in article 4 shall be guaranteed fair treatment at all stages of the proceedings.
Article 8
The offences referred to in article 4 shall be deemed to be included as extraditable offences in any extradition treaty existing between States Parties. States Parties undertake to include such offences as extraditable offences in every extradition treaty to be concluded between them.
If a State Party which makes extradition conditional on the existence of a treaty receives a request for extradition from another State Party with which it has no extradition treaty, it may consider this Convention as the legal basis for extradition in respect of such offenses. Extradition shall be subject to the other conditions provided by the law of the requested State.
States Parties which do not make extradition conditional on the existence of a treaty shall recognize such offences as extraditable offences between themselves subject to the conditions provided by the law of the requested state.
Such offences shall be treated, for the purpose of extradition between States Parties, as if they had been committed not only in the place in which they occurred but also in the territories of the States required to establish their jurisdiction in accordance with article 5, paragraph 1.
Article 9
States Parties shall afford one another the greatest measure of assistance in connection with civil proceedings brought in respect of any of the offences referred to in article 4, including the supply of all evidence at their disposal necessary for the proceedings.
States Parties shall carry out their obligations under paragraph 1 of this article in conformity with any treaties on mutual judicial assistance that may exist between them.
Article 10
Each State Party shall ensure that education and information regarding the prohibition against torture are fully included in the training of law enforcement personnel, civil or military, medical personnel, public officials and other persons who may be involved in the custody, interrogation or treatment of any individual subjected to any form of arrest, detention or imprisonment.
Each State Party shall include this prohibition in the rules or instructions issued in regard to the duties and functions of any such persons.
Article 11
Each State Party shall keep under systematic review interrogation rules, instructions, methods and practices as well as arrangements for the custody and treatment of persons subjected to any form of arrest, detention or imprisonment in any territory under its jurisdiction, with a view to preventing any cases of torture.

Article 12
Each State Party shall ensure that its competent authorities proceed to a prompt and impartial investigation, wherever there is reasonable ground to believe that an act of torture has been committee in any territory under its jurisdiction.

Article 13
Each State Party shall ensure that any individual who alleges he has been subjected to torture in any territory under its jurisdiction has the right to complain to and to have his case promptly and impartially examined its competent authorities. Steps shall be taken to ensure that the complainant and witnesses are protected against all ill-treatment or intimidation as a consequence of his complaint or any evidence given.

Article 14
Each State Party shall ensure in its legal system that the victim of an act of torture obtains redress and has an enforceable right to fair and adequate compensation including the means for as full rehabilitation as possible. In the event of the death of the victim as a result of an act of torture, his dependents shall be entitled to compensation.
Nothing in this article shall affect any right of the victim or other person to compensation which may exist under national law.
Article 15
Each State Party shall ensure that any statement which is established to have been made as a result of torture shall not be invoked as evidence in any proceedings, except against a person accused of torture as evidence that the statement was made.

Article 16
Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article 1, when such acts are committed by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. In particular, the obligations contained in articles 10, 11, 12 and 13 shall apply with the substitution for references to torture or references to other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
The provisions of this Convention are without prejudice to the provisions of any other international instrument or national law which prohibit cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment or which relate to extradition or expulsion.
Article 17
There shall be established a Committee against Torture (hereinafter referred to as the Committee) which shall carry out the functions hereinafter provided. The Committee shall consist of 10 experts of high moral standing and recognized competence in the field of human rights, who shall serve in their personal capacity. The experts shall be elected by the States Parties, consideration being given to equitable geographical distribution and to the usefulness of the participation of some persons having legal experience.
The members of the Committee shall be elected by secret ballot from a list of persons nominated by States Parties. Each State Party may nominate one person from among its own nationals. States Parties shall bear in mind the usefulness of nominating persons who are also members of the Human Rights Committee established under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and are willing to serve on the Committee against Torture.
Elections of the members of the Committee shall be held at biennial meetings of States Parties convened by the Secretary-General of the United Nations. At those meetings, for which two thirds of the States Parties shall constitute a quorum, the persons elected to the Committee shall be those who obtain the largest number of votes and an absolute majority of the votes of the representatives of States Parties present and voting.
The initial election shall be held no later than six months after the date of the entry into force of this Convention. At least four months before the date of each election, the Secretary-General of the United Nations shall address a letter to the States Parties inviting them to submit their nominations within three months. The Secretary-General shall prepare a list in alphabetical order of all persons thus nominated, indicating the States Parties which have nominated them, and shall submit it to the States Parties.
The members of the Committee shall be elected for a term of four years. They shall be eligible for re-election if renominated. However, the term of five of the members elected at the first election shall expire at the end of two years; immediately after the first election the names of these five members shall be chosen by lot by the chairman of the meeting referred to in paragraph 3.
If a member of the Committee dies or resigns or for any other cause can no longer perform his Committee duties, the State Party which nominated him shall appoint another expert from among its nationals to serve for the remainder of his term, subject to the approval of the majority of the States Parties. The approval shall be considered given unless half or more of the States Parties respond negatively within six weeks after having been informed by the Secretary-General of the United Nations of the proposed appointment.
States Parties shall be responsible for the expenses of the members of the Committee while they are in performance of Committee duties.
Article 18
The Committee shall elect its officers for a term of two years. They may be re-elected.
The Committee shall establish its own rules of procedure, but these rules shall provide, inter alia, that
Six members shall constitute a quorum;
Decisions of the Committee shall be made by a majority vote of the members present.
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall provide the necessary staff and facilities for the effective performance of the functions of the Committee under this Convention.
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall convene the initial meeting of the Committee. After its initial meeting, the Committee shall meet at such times as shall be provided in its rules of procedure.
The State Parties shall be responsible for expenses incurred in connection with the holding of meetings of the States Parties and of the Committee, including reimbursement of the United Nations for any expenses, such as the cost of staff and facilities, incurred by the United Nations pursuant to paragraph 3 above.
Article 19
The States Parties shall submit to the Committee, through the Secretary-General of the United Nations, reports on the measures they have taken to give effect to their undertakings under this Convention, within one year after the entry into force of this Convention for the State Party concerned. Thereafter the States Parties shall submit supplementary reports every four years on any new measures taken, and such other reports as the Committee may request.
The Secretary-General shall transmit the reports to all States Parties.
The Committee may, at its discretion, decide to include any comments or suggestions made by it in accordance with paragraph 3, together with the observations thereon received from the State Party concerned, in its annual report made in accordance with article 24. If so requested by the State Party concerned, the Committee may also include a copy of the report submitted under paragraph 1.]
Article 20
If the Committee receives reliable information which appears to it to contain well-founded indications that torture is being systematically practised in the territory of a State Party, the Committee shall invite that State Party to co-operate in the examination of the information and to this end to submit observations with regard to the information concerned.
Taking into account any observations which may have been submitted by the State Party concerned as well as any other relevant information available to it, the Committee may, if it decides that this is warranted, designate one or more of its members to make a confidential inquiry and to report to the Committee urgently.
If an inquiry is made in accordance with paragraph 2, the Committee shall seek the co-operation of the State Party concerned. In agreement with that State Party, such an inquiry may include a visit to its territory.
After examining the findings of its member or members submitted in accordance with paragraph 2, the Committee shall transmit these findings to the State Party concerned together with any comments or suggestions which seem appropriate in view of the situation.
All the proceedings of the Committee referred to in paragraphs 1 to 4 of this article shall be confidential, and at all stages of the proceedings the co-operation of the State Party shall be sought. After such proceedings have been completed with regard to an inquiry made in accordance with paragraph 2, the Committee may, after consultations with the State Party concerned, decide to include a summary account of the results of the proceedings in its annual report made in accordance with article 24.
Article 21
A State Party to this Convention may at any time declare under this article 3 that it recognizes the competence of the Committee to receive and consider communications to the effect that a State Party claims that another State Party is not fulfilling its obligations under this Convention. Such communications may be received and considered according to the procedures laid down in this article only if submitted by a State Party which has made a declaration recognizing in regard to itself the competence of the Committee. No communication shall be dealt with by the Committee under this article if it concerns a State Party which has not made such a declaration. Communications received under this article shall be dealt with in accordance with the following procedure:
If a State Party considers that another State Party is not giving effect to the provisions of this Convention, it may, by written communication, bring the matter to the attention of that State Party. Within three months after the receipt of the communication the receiving State shall afford the State which sent the communication an explanation or any other statement in writing clarifying the matter which should include, to the extent possible and pertinent, references to domestic procedures and remedies taken, pending, or available in the matter.
If the matter is not adjusted to the satisfaction of both States Parties concerned within six months after the receipt by the receiving State of the initial communication, either State shall have the right to refer the matter to the Committee by notice given to the Committee and to the other State.
The Committee shall deal with a matter referred to it under this article only after it has ascertained that all domestic remedies have been invoked and exhausted in the matter, in conformity with the generally recognized principles of international law. This shall not be the rule where the application of the remedies is unreasonably prolonged or is unlikely to bring effective relief to the person who is the victim of the violation of this Convention.
The Committee shall hold closed meetings when examining communications under this article.
Subject to the provisions of subparagraph (c), the Committee shall make available its good offices to the States Parties concerned with a view to a friendly solution of the matter on the basis of respect for the obligations provided for in the present Convention. For this purpose, the Committee may, when appropriate, set up an ad hoc conciliation commission.
In any matter referred to it under this article, the Committee may call upon the States Parties concerned, referred to in subparagraph (b), to supply any relevant information.
The States Parties concerned, referred to in subparagraph (b), shall have the right to be represented when the matter is being considered by the Committee and to make submissions orally and/or in writing.
The Committee shall, within 12 months after the date of receipt of notice under subparagraph (b), submit a report.
If a solution within the terms of subparagraph (e) is reached, the Committee shall confine its report to a brief statement of the facts and of the solution reached.
If a solution within the terms of subparagraph (e) is not reached, the Committee shall confine its report to a brief statement of the facts; the written submissions and record of the oral submissions made by the States Parties concerned shall be attached to the report.
In every matter, the report shall be communicated to the States Parties concerned.

The provisions of this article shall come into force when five States Parties to this Convention have made declarations under paragraph 1 of this article. Such declarations shall be deposited by the States Parties with the Secretary-General of the United Nations, who shall transmit copies thereof to the other States Parties. A declaration may be withdrawn at any time by notification to the Secretary-General. Such a withdrawal shall not prejudice the consideration of any matter which is the subject of a communication already transmitted under this article; no further communication by any State Party shall be received under this article after the notification of withdrawal of the declaration has been received by the Secretary-General, unless the State Party concerned has made a new declaration.
Article 22
A State Party to this Convention may at any time declare under this article that it recognizes the competence of the Committee to receive and consider communications from or on behalf of individuals subject to its jurisdiction who claim to be victims of a violation by a State Party of the provisions of the Convention. No communication shall be received by the Committee if it concerns a State Party to the Convention which has not made such a declaration.
The Committee shall consider inadmissible any communication under this article which is anonymous, or which it considers to be an abuse of the right of submission of such communications or to be incompatible with the provisions of this Convention.
Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2, the Committee shall bring any communication submitted to it under this article to the attention of the State Party to this Convention which has made a declaration under paragraph 1 and is alleged to be violating any provisions of the Convention. Within six months, the receiving State shall submit to the Committee written explanations or statements clarifying the matter and the remedy, if any, that may have been taken by that State.
The Committee shall consider communications received under this article in the light of all information made available to it by or on behalf of the individual and by the State Party concerned.
The Committee shall not consider any communication from an individual under this article unless it has ascertained that:
The same matter has not been, and is not being examined under another procedure of international investigation or settlement;
The individual has exhausted all available domestic remedies; this shall not be the rule where the application of the remedies is unreasonably prolonged or is unlikely to bring effective relief to the person who is the victim of the violation of this Convention.
The Committee shall hold closed meetings when examining communications under this article.
The Committee shall forward its views to the State Party concerned and to the individual.
The provisions of this article shall come into force when five States Parties to this Convention have made declarations under paragraph 1 of this article. Such declarations shall be deposited by the States Parties with the Secretary-General of the United Nations, who shall transmit parties thereof to the other States Parties. A declaration may be withdrawn at any time by notification to the Secretary-General. Such a withdrawal shall not prejudice the consideration of any matter which is the subject of a communication already transmitted under this article; no further communication by or on behalf of an individual shall be received under this article after the notification of withdrawal of the declaration has been received by the Secretary-General, unless the State Party concerned has made a new declaration.
Article 23
The members of the Committee, and of the ad hoc conciliation commissions which may be appointed under article 21, paragraph 1 (e), shall be entitled to the facilities, privileges and immunities of experts on missions for the United Nations as laid down in the relevant sections of the Convention on the Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations.

Article 24
The Committee shall submit an annual report on its activities under this Convention to the States Parties and to the General Assembly of the United Nations.

Part III
Article 25
This Convention is open for signature by all States.
This Convention is subject to ratification. Instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.
Article 26
This Convention is open to accession by all States. Accession shall be effected by the deposit of an instrument of accession with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 27
This Convention shall enter into force on the thirtieth day after the date of the deposit with the Secretary-General of the United Nations of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession.
For each State ratifying this Convention or acceding to it after the deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession, the Convention shall enter into force on the thirtieth day after the date of the deposit of its own instrument of ratification or accession.
Article 28
Each State may, at the time of signature or ratification of this Convention or accession thereto, declare that it does not recognize the competence of the Committee provided for in article 20.
Any State Party having made a reservation in accordance with paragraph 1 of this article may, at any time, withdraw this reservation by notification to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.
Article 29
Any State Party to this Convention may propose an amendment and file it with the Secretary-General of the United Nations. The Secretary-General shall thereupon communicate the proposed amendment to the States Parties to this Convention with a request that they notify him whether they favour a conference of States Parties for the purpose of considering and voting upon the proposal. In the event that within four months from the date of such communication at least one third of the State Parties favours such a conference, the Secretary-General shall convene the conference under the auspices of the United Nations. Any amendment adopted by a majority of the States Parties present and voting at the conference shall be submitted by the Secretary-General to all the States Parties for acceptance.
An amendment adopted in accordance with paragraph 1 shall enter into force when two thirds of the States Parties to this Convention have notified the Secretary-General of the United Nations that they have accepted it in accordance with their respective constitutional processes.
When amendments enter into force, they shall be binding on those States Parties which have accepted them, other States Parties still being bound by the provisions of this Convention and any earlier amendments which they have accepted.
Article 30
Any dispute between two or more States Parties concerning the interpretation or application of this Convention which cannot be settled through negotiation, shall, at the request of one of them, be submitted to arbitration. If within six months from the date of the request for arbitration the Parties are unable to agree on the organization of the arbitration, any one of those Parties may refer the dispute to the International Court of Justice by request in conformity with the Statute of the Court.
Each State may at the time of signature or ratification of this Convention or accession thereto, declare that it does not consider itself bound by the preceding paragraph. The other States Parties shall not be bound by the preceding paragraph with respect to any State Party having made such a reservation.
Any State Party having made a reservation in accordance with the preceding paragraph may at any time withdraw this reservation by notification to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.
Article 31
A State Party may denounce this Convention by written notification to the Secretary-General of the United Nations. Denunciation becomes effective one year after the date of receipt of the notification by the Secretary-General.
Such a denunciation shall not have the effect of releasing the State Party from its obligations under this Convention in regard to any act or omission which occurs prior to the date at which the denunciation becomes effective. Nor shall denunciation prejudice in any way the continued consideration of any matter which is already under consideration by the Committee prior to the date at which the denunciation becomes effective.
Following the date at which the denunciation of a State Party becomes effective, the Committee shall not commence consideration of any new matter regarding that State.
Article 32
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall inform all members of the United Nations and all States which have signed this Convention or acceded to it, or the following particulars:

Signatures, ratifications and accessions under articles 25 and 26;
The date of entry into force of this Convention under article 27, and the date of the entry into force of any amendments under article 29;
Denunciations under article 31.
Article 33
This Convention, of which the Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations.
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall transmit certified copies of this Convention to all States.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On February 4, 1985, the Convention was opened for signature at United Nations Headquarters in New York. At that time, representatives of the following countries signed it: Afghanistan, Argentina, Belgium, Bolivia, Costa Rica, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Finland, France, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Senegal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and Uruguay. Subsequently, signatures were received from Venezuela on February 15, from Luxembourg and Panama on February 22, from Austria on March 14, and from the United Kingdom on March 15, 1985.

(signatures)



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See Scott Horton's April 10 article at Harper's online He referenced the Army's investigation into the death and the finding that the death was a murder. They turned the investigation over to the DOJ for prosecution in 2004 and to this day, no one has been tried for the crime.


April 10, 8:43 AM
Licensed to Kill

Yesterday CIA Director Leon Panetta emailed thousands of subordinates his hearty greetings for Passover and Easter. Appropriate to the season, perhaps, his message was filled with talk of torture, foreign captivity, and doubtful acts of contrition. “CIA officers do not tolerate, and will continue to promptly report, any inappropriate behavior or allegations of abuse,” he wrote. And this rule was not to be evaded by proxies, either: “That holds true whether a suspect is in the custody of an American partner or a foreign liaison service.”

He also spoke about the decommissioning of the system of black sites constructed in the Bush era to hold prisoners outside of any form of accountability. “I have directed our Agency personnel to take charge of the decommissioning process,” he wrote. “It is estimated that our taking over site security will result in savings of up to $4 million.” Some of these black sites are now the subject of criminal investigations seeking to ascertain whether crimes were committed there. One wonders what sort of care Panetta’s agents will take to preserve evidence of what transpired there, and what the criminal investigators think about the CIA “taking charge” of the process.

Panetta also provided assurances that “No CIA contractors will conduct interrogations.” Many of the most serious cases of abuse of prisoners involve CIA contractors. I am aware of a single case in which a CIA contractor was actually prosecuted. Remember Abu Ghraib? The Defense Department’s investigation concluded that the most serious offenses against detainees there were committed by contractors. As Major General Antonio Taguba noted, several of these individuals had clear-cut and continuing high-level connections to the intelligence community. Some purported to be contractors for the Interior Department, but the facts strongly suggested a relationship to the shop Panetta now heads. This group of contractors were investigated by the military, which turned over a full portfolio of evidence to federal prosecutors in the Eastern District of Virginia, recommending prosecution. What happened? Nothing. In the meantime, however, a group of young NCOs and enlisted personnel who acted under the influence of the contractors were court-martialed. Another demonstration of the Bush Administration’s total perversion of our justice system.

Or consider what Congressional Quarterly’s Jeff Stein calls “The Mysterious Case of Mark Swanner.” The Army’s Criminal Investigation Detachment studied the death of Manadel al-Jamadi (photo left), who died in Swanner’s custody, and concluded that he had been murdered. Swanner, a long-time CIA officer, was fingered as the perpetrator, and the case was referred to the U.S. Attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia for prosecution. That was 2004. So five years later, what has happened? Nothing happened.

http://www.harpers.org/subjects/NoComment


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oh and don't forget..besides Bush saying the USA does not torture..so did Obama.........

http://www.truveo.com/Obama-US-does-not-torture/id/3693...


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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. All that copy and paste for nothing...
As I pointed out rather clearly, I never said it WAS legal. I drew a rather clear line between "legal" and "prosecutable".
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waldenaut Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
52. Flyarm, OP Misses the Material Spirit of the Matter
I thank you. The OP's considered position is, in reality, not nearly so indubitable as it seems to think it is. Nothing in it precludes the reasonableness of Obama appointing a special prosecutor to investigate these matters. Nothing. The president is simply in the wrong here not to do so. Especially given the revelations that these memos were issued subsequently to justify torture already knowingly in progress. This more than suggests bad faith on the part of at least some, perhaps many, who operated subsequently under the cover of the memos. But, of course, looking into such natural possibilities is exactly the sort of thing for which a special prosecutor would come in handy, yes?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5473057#5482689
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. yes indeed!! ..If the government becomes a law-breaker....
Justice Louis D.Brandeis

"Our government is the potent, the omnipresent, teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself;"
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waldenaut Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. You've just expressed my greatest concern about all this.
With young people, in particular, who can see what's going on here. The messages they are getting about power and the thresholds of its immunity from scrutiny should frighten us deeply. We are setting no good example here. On the other hand, what we are enabling is the pathological mimicry of criminal convenience and expediency.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. the enemy has become us ..has it not????????? we should all be frightened by that! eom
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Lint Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
31. It is not defensible. The torturers committed crimes.
Just because a 'lawyer' writes a memo to say something is not a crime does not make it 'not a crime'.
If that were true any defense lawyer could say, "Bank robbery is not a crime." and his bank robber client could get off scott free.
This situation is idiotic and indefensible.

Any lawyer defending any of these torturers knows it would be a high profile gig that would get them publicity and enrich them with future high profile clients. No lawyer worth his degree is ignorant enough to think they can win this. Obama will not be re-elected if these criminals are not prosecuted. This is an issue that will definitely come back and bite the Obama campaign in the butt. I am an Obama supporter and hope he changes his mind and does not become an accessory to this obvious criminal and despicable crime.
:dem:
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. I didn't say they didn't commit crimes.
Read. Then post.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. a Reasonable person would know
they were wrong to do that kind of shit, no matter what they were told, and they were obliged to decline
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. A reasonable person would conclude that the memos were cover
to allow after the fact defenses such as the OP's to confuse the issue and deflect prosecution. The fact that the CIA demanded a legal opinion from the DOJ is incriminating in itself.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
37. You're omitting an essential contextual component. "War."
Much relies on the notion of "rational" and "sane" and "reasonable" ... but in the context of 'WAR,' where dropping bombs and killing innocents is called "collateral damage" and not "murder" and where firing in the general direction of the "enemy" at anything that moves is regarded as necessary and prudent, very little is "rational" and "sane" and "reasonable." How many would reasonably expect that the ground crews, flight crews, and pilots get procsecuted for "war crimes"? How many would reasonably expect all of these people to refuse such an "illegal order"? How many people whose taxes went to paying for such bombings are complicit?

We had YEARS to call a halt to these actions, through impeachment and through elections. But we "legally" reelected the Cheney/Bush regime 2004 and impeachment was "off the table." It was "War On Terror" 24x7. The Geneva Conventions apply to WAR.

There's a reason Nuremberg was called "winner's justice." There's a reason we have been operating under the "might makes right" rules. The naivete of those who'd go after the small fry like Lynndie England is akin to those who kick dogs out of frustration ... and cowardice.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
45. "Orders" don't apply to civilians like CIA operatives
"Orders" only apply to military types.

If the CIA people wanted to quit instead of following an unlawful order, they are free to do that. If they tortured, there is NO cover for them. They knew it was a crime and the did it anyway.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. "Orders" is not the defense here
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
50. The CIA has always tortured and WILL always torture.
Memos or no memos. Every President has gone along with this in the name of national security since the creation of the CIA and all those other alphabet-soup torture agencies. The current President has no intention of prosecuting them because, to the powers that be, torture is not wrong. It is the way things are done and always have been done. The wrong thing in the mind of the President and former Presidents is simply revealing the truth.

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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
55. "We cannot predict with confidence that a court would agree with this conclusion"
That is how one of those memos concluded.

Does that really sound like iron clad legal advice to you? The sort that would end any discussion about the legality of the techniques in question?

If nothing else, that statement alone introduces just enough doubt, that the recipient of that memo would have to rely at least somewhat upon their own conscience.

And thus we're back to Nuremberg.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. and Nuremburg remains bad law with good intention
Fervent Nazi hater here but I've always seen this as overzealous. Objectively, the Nazi soldier had little choice, regardless of how insane his orders. Bullet or rope are not reasonable choices, especially when the rope is a future possibility and the bullet is immediate. I deem the choice as inhumane.

I also am not in love with mish-mash law. I see the operatives as functionally operating within U.S. law (you can't set a precedent of reversing the DoJ with every election swing) but clearly in violation of international law.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
58. The Nazi passed laws that said it was cool to imprison and murder Jews.
The foot soldiers were following lawful orders of their nation. It is the same thing.

Stop with the bullshit, the "lawful directives" of the Bush admin were illegal and violated our constitution and federal laws.

Attorney General opinions have never been anything more than opinion, they are not precedence and are not binding.

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deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
65. There is no defense. "Build a foundation" has been in his BS. This is no way to build a foundation.
Another snake oil salesman. Too bad, i actually felt pretty good about his administration up ultil now.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
67. A damn near perfect summary. If people don't get it after reading you, they don't want to think


There's really nothing whatsoever to add to what you've said.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
68. Another huge flaw in your analysis
they tortured first, then they asked for legal opinions to justify or excuse it.

You need to focus on the facts.

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
70. that's why they need to be prosecuted in international court, not in the U.S....
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 11:15 AM by mike_c
They should be remanded to The Hague for trial.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
71. What Germans did during WW II was legal under German law
assured so by their top legal lawyers

What Japanese did during WW II was legal under Japanese law

Nice try
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #71
136. Were the Germans tried in German courts?...
Were the Japanese?

Sid
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
74. BS
There is no such thing as Torturing "in Good Faith".

Torturers are criminals, even when they have a note from their lawyer.

The note from the lawyer (Bush OLC Memos) should be taken into account during the Sentencing Phase...after a Public Trial.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
80. "A little focus people." Cute. Perhaps that's all Rahm Emanuel needs. A little focus.
:eyes:
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. Like I rather specifically said in the OP...
We should be pushing for prosecutions of the people responsible for those legal opinions being generated. Assuming what Rahm said this weekend was accurate and not a case of carelessly sloppy phrasing when trying to re-affirm the "no prosecuting the officers who received legal direction" position Obama stated earlier, then yes, THAT is a problem. And we should be directing our efforts to making those prosecutions happen.
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crimsonblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
83. The concentration camp guards were told that what they were doing was legal
and necessary. Just because somebody says it is legal doesn't make it legal. Legality is an issue for the courts. Which is why these cases need to be presented in court.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. Wash, rinse, repeat...
Just because somebody says it is legal doesn't make it legal.


Wow. Thank you for pointing that out for the fifteenth or so time in this thread. If only I had known that before I wrote the OP.

Oh wait. I did. And I damn well said so. My exact words, to quote myself, were: "that doesn't make what they did right, or moral, or legal". And yes, I used the italics for emphasis the first time around too. Lot of good it did me considering how many people appear to have bothered reading the entire thing before launching into their replies.

Here's the really simple summary:

1. What they did was illegal.

2. They can't be prosecuted because that would be entrapment.

The government can't tell you something is legal then arrest you for believing them.

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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
87. When OPs start out with a premise that the reader has failed to grasp something...
I stop reading.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. Yet feel compelled to respond anyway apparently. -nt
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
100. It's unclear if the manner in which these opinions were
produced is not a crime in itself. Iirc, there is a report coming out on this topic. So, the status of these opinions in and of themselves is unclear.


That throws into question the whole matter of "bad faith" and "good faith" torturers, if such a repulsive distinction can even be made in the first place, forgetting for a moment that ALL torture conducted between April 2002 and August had no legal cover whatsoever.

And I seriously doubt your assertion that CIA would win any case at the moment. If their position was so strong, Jose Rodriguez wouldn't have been so busy destroying evidence, i.e., torture videos. He would have preserved them to help clear himself and others.



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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
101. They do not have an ironclad defense..they have no defense...educate yourself..
...the US is a signer of the United Nations protocol on torture which specifically defines torture and specifically says that it is not a defense if ordered to do so.
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
102. They do not have an ironclad defense..they have no defense...educate yourself..
...the US is a signer of the United Nations protocol on torture which specifically defines torture and specifically says that it is not a defense if ordered to do so.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #102
108. Learn what entrapment means.
THEN try telling me to "educate myself". The Justice Department can't prosecute people for doing something the Justice Department officially told them was legal.
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #108
120. That's not entrapment...educate yourself again...
...at least get a book called Legal Advice for Dummies because you have no clue what you're talking about. I know you're greatest fantasy is to be spooning with Obama...otherwise you wouldn't post this ignorant, self-righteous drivel.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #120
127. Do me a couple favors.
1. Look up "entrapment by estoppel". I'll help: http://federalism.typepad.com/crime_federalism/2004/11/entrapment_by_e.html

2. Become suitably embarassed at making a fool of yourself.

3. Slink away.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #127
132. You need to slink away.
A defense to the crime does not negate the charging of a crime, it is used during trial.

Given that the torture occurred first and the memos followed, I'd say the defense doesn't work.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #132
133. You're completely clueless. Completely.
If the prosecution KNOWS the defense exists and is valid... and in this case considering the prosecution CAUSED the defense to be valid they sure as hell know it, then yes it IS a reason not to prosecute. We do not waste the court's time on pointless cases that can't be won.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #133
138. You are the one that is clueless.
Tell me - how do reverse sting operations work?

You do know what they are, don't you?

The defense of insanity is available in every mass killing, do you think that prevents prosecutions?

You are truly ignorant of criminal law and the federal rules of procedure, the availability of a defense does not prevent prosecution or guarantee acquittals.

It is up to the jury to decide guilt or to acquit, based on the evidence and the facts, as instructed about the law by the judge. The prosecution has the burden, defenses being available to the accused does not prevent the prosecution. To let them perverts the justice system, the prosecutor must enforce the laws, that is their obligation.
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
110. If any of these torturers were military than they KNOW THE LAW AND THERE IS NO EXCUSE.
Our military are indoctrinated in the "rules of war," which includes, among other things, our international obligations under the Geneva Convention.

What you appear to be missing here is that Mr. Obama has given a pass to the very people who's testimony we will NEED to secure convictions of the people who ordered the torture. You take away the threat of prosecution for the very real crimes they committed while torturing, and you tie the hands of the prosecution, to get those who ordered the torture. Those who performed the torture need to be held account before a judge and jury, who should decide if they are guilt-free. Mr. Obama over-stretched his power, and failed in his Constitutional duty, when he offered these torturers amnesty.

And I don't know what country you think these low-level torturers grew up in, but in America, we grew up being taught of American values, which include not torturing. So to suggest that these people are starry-eyed innocents, is an over-simplification of their true culpability.

And, I'd like to remind you that giving the performers of torture amnesty was just a prelude to amnesty for all involved at every level. So feeling sanctimonious about Mr. Obama's supposed wisdom here, may be premature...

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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
111. Since when is "they'd probably be acquitted" an argument for blanket immunity?
I would generally agree that less responsibility falls on Joe Blow at the CIA than on Alberto Gonzales, but tell me why these people shouldn't have to defend actions that would be abhorrent to anyone with a moral compass.

The issue to me isn't that prosecution of these individuals would probably not result in conviction. It's legitimate to launch cases that probably won't, and the pressure of indictment can further the prosecution of bigger fish. The issue is that heinous acts were committed that demand justice, and there should be no rush to categorically eliminate options.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. It isn't.
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 04:03 PM by gcomeau
But "they were entrapped" is. Which they were. The government isn't allowed to officially tell someone that an action is legal then turn around and prosecute them for believing them.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. They were not entrapped, they committed the crimes and looked for
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 04:22 PM by merh
legal permission from the DOJ and/or they were predisposed to commit the crimes.

Stop with the nonsense - if they want to try entrapment as a defense, then that would be their option as it is a legal defense, not immunity.

I hope you are not a lawyer responsible for representing anyone. If you are, you might want to figure out the definitions of legal terms and understand what statutes provide.

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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #112
117. "they were entrapped" = "they probably wouldn't be convicted"
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 04:40 PM by D23MIURG23
I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure entrapment is something a that has to be found by a court, which of course involves prosecution. People aren't generally given immunity just because there is a possible defense for their conduct.

I don't know that this constitutes entrapment, but if it does it isn't my place or yours or Obama's to decide that. If it really is entrapment then its the place of our judicial system to establish that, and satisfy the rest of us that justice has in fact occurred.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #117
126. "They were entrapped" means...
...it would be unethical and unprofessional for the department that DID THE ENTRAPPING to pursue a prosecution. AND they would be acquitted. If the Justice Department KNOWS they committed entrapment then they are not supposed to bring charges. They are supposed to know better. So no, it is not just a matter for the courts. That is something the Justice Department is supposed to consider when evaluating whether to bring charges. And in this case there is no doubt whatsoever what ther answer is. None. Entrapment occured. This is the definition of entrapment. It's not remotely unclear. Having, in writing, an official government justice department statement that you were taking a legal action makes it effectively impossible for the government to then turn around and prosecute you for doing something THEY told you you could do.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #126
130. A special prosecutor can investigate and present to a grand jury
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 07:00 PM by merh
it is the grand jury that returns an indictment based on the evidence. Special prosecutor can then try the case/cases.

Entrapment has nothing to do with the ethics of the office and since new people run the office, the question as to the ethics of them pursuing the charges doesn't exist.

You sure are trying, and failing, to excuse these criminals. The DOJ people that wrote the faulty memos and that authorized the crimes would also be subject to prosecution. Check out the code section I gave you.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #117
131. you are correct
it is up to the jury to determine guilt or to acquit - not up to the prosecution or obama.

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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
121. Except Rahm Emanuel just said
that they don't want to prosecute the people who shaped the policy either.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. but feinstein just said that the obama administration should
stop making such announcements until the senate had concluded its investigation.

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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #122
124. Good
But I think that Emanuel's statement argues against the OP's contention that the Obama Adm. is playing 11-dimension chess here. Emanuel tried to shut the door on prosecutions, quite firmly.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. Unlike Rove to Bush
and maybe despite what Emanuel believes, I really don't think Emanuel has the last word

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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
123. false
The CIA knows what is and is not torture, see the KUBARK manual from the early 1960s. Also the CIA has a long history of torture, so there is no doubt that operatives knew they were engaging in illegal behavior. That's why they asked for a "golden shield" from the Justice Department, AFTER the torture began.

Your entire premise is historically and factually incorrect.
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sammythecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #123
128. Great response.
These guys knew exactly what they were doing, they chose to do it, and the responsibility is theirs.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
129. whatever...
Is he being coy?. Focus on what?
Is it that hard to be clear?
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
137. Kicked for a refreshingly adult take on this. Obama is a lawyer. This is
Edited on Tue Apr-21-09 11:05 AM by cliffordu
probably a lot closer to his logic than most of the "betrayal" threads and screeds out there.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #137
144. This is not an adult take on things.
This is an opinion (like those memos) not based in fact or on the law.

Sad how so many are willing to forgive the abuses of bushco and the inhumanity done in our names to others.

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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
140. It's not Obama so much as a statutory defense: See 42 USC 2000dd-1
(a) Protection of United States Government personnel
In any civil action or criminal prosecution against an officer,
employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent of the United
States Government who is a United States person, arising out of the
officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent's
engaging in specific operational practices, that involve detention
and interrogation of aliens who the President or his designees have
determined are believed to be engaged in or associated with
international terrorist activity that poses a serious, continuing
threat to the United States, its interests, or its allies, and that
were officially authorized and determined to be lawful at the time
that they were conducted, it shall be a defense that such officer,
employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent did not know
that the practices were unlawful and a person of ordinary sense and
understanding would not know the practices were unlawful. Good
faith reliance on advice of counsel should be an important factor,
among others, to consider in assessing whether a person of ordinary
sense and understanding would have known the practices to be
unlawful. Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit or
extinguish any defense or protection otherwise available to any
person or entity from suit, civil or criminal liability, or
damages, or to provide immunity from prosecution for any criminal
offense by the proper authorities.

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/42C21D.txt

Good faith reliance is a factor, among others, TO CONSIDER....when evaluating whether 183 waterboarding and whether 'walling' a detainee 30 times in one day is something a person of ordinary sense and understanding would have known to be unlawful.

It takes a jury to make the judgment of a person of ordinary sense.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #140
141. Catch the language that will trip up the criminals
Edited on Tue Apr-21-09 11:45 AM by merh
or other agent did not know that the practices were unlawful and a person of ordinary sense and understanding would not know the practices were unlawful.

All it takes is to present the evidence and the definition of torture as found in the US Code.

=====================
Prosecutor: When you waterboarded the suspected terrorist for the 182nd time that month, did he seem in distress, was he enjoying it?

Agent X: Well, he struggled a bit, that is what he always did.

Prosecutor: Was he enjoying it?

Agent X: No, we didn't want him to enjoy it.

Prosecutor: Was it causing him pain?

Agent X: Yes, but not severe?

Prosecutor: Do you think he was afraid of dying?

Agent X: I don't know. When it was done to me in training, I wasn't.

Prosecutor: Why was it done to you?

Agent X: To prepare me, to know how to deal with it.

Prosecutor: In case you were captured and tortured?

Defense Lawyer: Objection!

===============================

The CIA have training beyond what you and the average joe have, they know what is legal and illegal, what is torture and what isn't.

The memos were cover your ass, not get out of jail free cards.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002340----000-.html



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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #141
145. Bush's minions clearly anticipated prosecutions....consider this:
Take a look at PL 109-366
Section 8


It is very clear that the Bush Administration clearly and specifically anticipated prosecutions for War Crimes under 18 USC 2441(c)(3) and expanded 42 USC 2000dd-1 to include immunity for periods prior to the issuance of the legal memorandum extending all the way to Sept 11, 2001.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #145
146. Oh, they knew what they had authorized or what they were doing
was wrong. Plenty of the CIA agents obtained their own counsel and obtained insurance.

This was not an "acting in good faith, lawyers said it was okay" - this was premeditated evil.

Did you catch this article?
http://washingtonindependent.com/39787/ex-rice-aide-blasts-torture-program

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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
142. Good post...nt
Sid
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
143. Oh, and there is this - the opposing view
that was circulated by members of the bush administration that were against torture. Philip Zelikow, the counselor to former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, opposed the practice and the memos.

At the time, in 2005, I circulated an opposing view of the legal reasoning. My bureaucratic position, as counselor to the secretary of state, didn’t entitle me to offer a legal opinion. But I felt obliged to put an alternative view in front of my colleagues at other agencies, warning them that other lawyers (and judges) might find the OLC views unsustainable. My colleagues were entitled to ignore my views. They did more than that: The White House attempted to collect and destroy all copies of my memo. I expect that one or two are still at least in the State Department’s archives.


http://washingtonindependent.com/39787/ex-rice-aide-blasts-torture-program
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
147. NO THERE IS NOT. Your "argument" is BULLSHIT...
Edited on Tue Apr-21-09 12:23 PM by TankLV
What the Nazi's did in "just following orders" is EXACTLY what you are trying to excuse bushco TORTURERS now - HITLER's layers ALSO ruled that ALL their actions were "legal"!!!

you make NO SENSE whatsoever...

nice try - but FAIL...

and someone in another post claimed that no one on DU is defending torture...YOU are Prime Example Number One..

fucking clueless IDIOTS all...

I can't believe you're TRYING - unsuccessfully - to MAKE EXCUSES FOR THESE TORTURERS!!!
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #147
151. Actually read the OP. THEN respond.
I specifically said this was NOT a "just following orders" situation. So your little rant was rather pointless.

And I in absolutely no sense whatsoever defended torture... but again, you'd have to actually read and comprehend what was written to know that.
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
148. Wrong.
I don't think there can be any doubt that the people at the CIA who engaged in torture had ample training and any necessary refresher courses--PRIOR TO 2003--that covered the Geneva Conventions and any other laws that may govern their on-the-job behavior, specifically what was allowable in conducting their interrogations and what wasn't. They almost certainly knew that what they were doing was illegal in a broader historical and universal sense as they were doing it. I don't know if they could have opted out or not. They certainly could have blown the whistle to Congress and/or the press.
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