Columbine

[Are_grits_groceries]

I finished reading the book "Columbine" by David Cullen. It is still a horror. Much of what we heard was not true.

The overarching question has always been "Why?"

An FBI forensic psychologist read everything that was found or produced by law enforcement and watched every tape. There really isn't a why, only a what.

Eric Harris was a psycopath. Dylan Klebold was a very depressed kid who Eric manipulated.

They weren't loners, or goths, or kids who had been bullied severely. In this case, you had people who wanted only to kill just for the sake of killing. If their entire plan had succeeded, the whole school would have burned. Eric and Dylan had planted propane tanks that would have exploded if the ignition devices had worked. They had also planted bombs in their cars which Eric had placed where he had figured out that the first responders might be. It would have leveled them.

Eric probably would have gone on to some other heinous deeds if he hadn't decided Columbine was where he would kill. It's chilling because he was like the proverbial "bad seed." He was bad to the bone from the day he was born. Psycopaths are the one group that no treatment can be found as of yet.

[LeftinOH]

1. Their parents failed. Your kids are amassing an arsenal of weapons

-and they managed not to notice.?!?!

[pnutbutr]

2. blame the kids

The parents may have played a part but ultimately we must lay blame on the kids themselves. They were idiots who acted out a brutal fantasy.

[Heidi]

6. There's plenty of blame to go around, from parents to law enforcement

to bullies to our culture that tolerates bullying and accepts violence as a means of justice to Klebold and Harris themselves.

[kiva]

24. This is one of the myths that is debunked in the book--

I've just started reading it, but one of the main points is that Klebold and Harris were not bullied.

[Heidi]

38. I realize that opinion exists, and I also realize that it's documented that Harris and

Klebold bullied younger students in their school.

About eight months after the Columbine killings, a 13-year-old student at the campus where my mother taught brought his father's 9 mm semiautomatic handgun to school one morning and fired into a group of students, injuring four or five of them. This hits very close to home for me; I think there's plenty of blame to go around, but none of these kids would have shot and killed/injured anyone if they'd not had access to weapons.

[kiva]

40. Your last sentence...

I completely agree.:cry:



edited: wrong smiley

[Are_grits_groceries]

4. A lot of people failed.

Eric was a master manipulator because of his psycopathy. He had the weapons, and he hid them well. The parents never searched his room like it needed to be searched. Without major clues, would you be able to wrap your head around the idea that your child might have an armory. Nothing pointed to that for the parents.

Their friends knew a lot, but they didn't tell anyone. They couldn't begin to comprehend that those 2 would take the school out. They got into trouble, but managed to snow the judge and the other law enforcement people who worked with them.

One family stood out. Eric threatened their son. They called the police over and over. The mother even told Eric to his face that she didn't believe his crap. He was amazed. Enough evidence such as Eric's web site was shown to the police a year before the shootings. A search warrant was written up and then forgotten about. The police kept that fact hidden for years.

The parents are the easy targets. It's neater to just blame them and let everyone else walk away.

[DinahMoeHum]

11. IIRC, Eric and Dylan each had an older brother who today

is an upstanding citizen.

If their parents were so lousy at their job, how come their older sons are doing OK??? No police blotters on THEM, as far as the general public knows.

One important factor not discussed here: Eric was a classic "military brat" in that his family kept uprooting and moving to a different part of the country every few years. That can't be any good for kids who crave for some kind of stability in a neighborhood or a group of friends - and have to start all over again and again.

[CoffeeCat]

19. Typical in even horrendously abusive families...

I don't know what happened in these families. I'll state that.

However, I want to clarify that it is typical in dysfunctional families for one child to
express the rage and dysfunction that is present in the family system--and for one or more
children to appear well adjusted and "upstanding citizens" as you said.

In fact, many psychopaths--who are mothers and fathers--will torment one child while favoring one
or many other children. This is part of the tormenting of the abused child.

Abusers and psychopaths often rationalize the mental, sexual and physical abuse that they exact on
one child--by not abusing other children. They are then able to put the "You're a bad child and
you deserve this" label on that child.

We can all imagine how destructive and rage filled a child raised this way--can grow up to be.

Again, I don't know if this pattern happened with the Columbine shooters, but I wanted to point
out that in abusive families the "good child, bad child" pattern is very typical.

[DinahMoeHum]

27. Interesting point, although I severely doubt that was the case here

with them. There has been no evidence indicating their parents were abusive; at least not anything the general public has had access to.

[CoffeeCat]

32. There is RARELY....

...any evidence that children were raised by abusive parents.

What evidence would there be...of severe physical, emotional or sexual abuse, years later after the crimes
have been perpetrated?

Are we really that naive about child abuse?

[Heidi]

39. Some would argue that it's negligent at the very least to have unsecured weapons

in one's household, whether those weapons were straw purchases by teens like Harris/Klebold or weapons taken from their parents. Abusive, though? I dunno if I'd go that far.

[DinahMoeHum]

45. You're calling who naive??

You're the one who brought this up, not me.

[HelenWheels]

20. So siblings are cookie cutter images of each other

There are cases of child abuse where only one child in the house is the victim (I'm not saying that was the situation of either of these boys issue)
I have a daughter that's born again whacked and one that's an atheist and they grew up in the same house. My son is the typical social Catholic, and he also grew up in the same house.

What I'm getting at is kids are different, your point probably shows the parents weren't at fault.

As far as Eric and being a military kid that also shows that different kids respond differently to the same situations. I know some military kids that wouldn't have changed their past for anything. It does show that Eric was probably more sensitive than other kids that have that life.

[MindPilot]

53. I am a "military brat". You're right it is a shitty life for a kid in many ways

But I got to be on Cape Canaveral for the birth of the space program in the 50's. I was in England for the Beatles and the Stones. I've gone to school in other countries and I probably logged more miles in the air before first grade than many people do their whole lives.

Oh, I've never been in the back of a police car.

[Nipper1959]

3. The author manipulated the definition of bullying to fit his hypotheses

Sorry, if this kid was a psychopath it was probably due to years of torment at the hands of his classmates with the blessing of the school staff.

[Are_grits_groceries]

7. Sorry, but they weren't bullied like that.

This author was there at the beginning. He knew about the findings of all the interviews. There was bullying at Columbine, but Eric and Dylan weren't tormented for years. This author has no agenda beyond reporting what he found. More and more became known. The supposed bullying is just another factor that neatens up a very complex tale.

[Nipper1959]

9. his agenda is relieving the guilt many should feel about bullying others

bullying is torture and American's seem to feel as long as they are the tormentors it's justified.

Edit: his prime agenda is to sell books and people won't buy if it makes them feel guilty by pointing the finger at them.

[Are_grits_groceries]

10. Believe what you will.

The author is no apologist for bullies. He just didn't find the evidence of years of torment that was reported.

[CoffeeCat]

26. Yes, but this author is relying...

...on the self reports of members of this community.

This community was rocked to the core. If members talk about bullying, neglectful parents and
derelict law enforcement--this points the finger back at this very pained community who just
wants this to go away.

It's much easier to blame the dead monster...the "bad seed" as you said. That wraps this horrendous
nightmare up into a nice, neat little package--with no one taking any responsibility.

I think that's sick.

I WATCHED as those kids told about the bullying and the name calling. We all saw those kids
talking about how the shooters were teased and pushed up against lockers. They said it.

If they deny it now---it's due to pressure from the community to shut the hell up.

The more you talk about that book, the more I'm drawing the conclusion that it's an unjust
whitewash.

[Are_grits_groceries]

34. Believe what you want.

As I said in another post, Eric and Dylan left a lot of written material and videos. If they were bullied to the core, I think they would have made that very well known in their own words.

Bullying it shall be. That is much more easy to understand than to think that someone as young as Eric could be a psycopath.

[goddess40]

41. Then he didn't watch "Bowling for Columbine"

And after the fact no one is going to admit there was bullying, doesn't mean it didn't happen just that those guilty of bullying and by-standing know they were at fault and aren't about to admit it.

[goddess40]

43. Read: The Bully, the Bullied, and the Bystander

The Bully, the Bullied, and the Bystander: From Preschool to High School--How Parents and Teachers Can Help Break the Cycle of Violence
by Barbara Coloroso

Anyone that reads this will understand the problem with bullying.

http://www.amazon.com/Bully-Bullied-Bystander-Preschool-School-How/dp/006001430X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240241910&sr=1-1

[DevonRex]

12. Sociopaths and psychopaths are born that way.

[RaleighNCDUer]

42. A neglected aspect of the 'bullying' argument is the actual, physical

damage.

Many, many people are bullied, but few develop into psychopaths. I suspect a factor is head trauma at a young age, more than the bullying. Those who are regularly bullied are likelier to have head trauma, and after the fact their psychopathy is attributed to the bullying rather than the trauma. I would make a good bet that this psychopath had a head injury before he was 10.

[LanternWaste]

51. delete

delete

[CoffeeCat]

5. I think there is a lot that we will never know..

...no matter how many books are written.

I remember seeing many Columbine students saying that both perps were teased and bullied.

I also wonder about what happened to both of those kids growing up. Psychopaths--are they really born as "bad seeds"?

For someone to be a psychopath, they must lack empathy and a conscience. It seems more likely that environmental
factors take those things away. Trauma, especially early childhood trauma, can cause a young child to protect themselves
by emotionally shutting down, in order to survive. The result is a person who feels nothing for himself, and is
therefore unable to feel anything for anyone else. Couple that emotional state with mountains of rage--due to
being abused/traumatized--and you've got a ready-made, socially created psychopath.

Obviously, there is so much to the Columbine story--and I suspect a lot that we may never know.

It's beyond tragic.

[Are_grits_groceries]

8. What you saw about the bullying was one of the myths.

There was rage, but it wasn't due to that. Eric wanted to annihilate the world. They were picked on some, but not to any extreme.

[Nipper1959]

13. We're you there to see how they were bullied?

Don't you think the actual witnesses to the bullying are going to fess up and shoulder some of the guilt for the shootings? I don't think so. Will the staff that looked the other way will face up and admit they not only allowed the bullying but by looking the other way actually encouraged it? And face lawsuits - no way.

Each person has their own boiling point and we don't know and will never know the amount of torment these boys put up with before they burst.

[CoffeeCat]

14. Ok, I understand that you've read this book...

...and youere speaking as though you are speaking ultimate truth. But maybe
this book isn't the ultimate truth on Columbine.

There is a lot that we will never know.

And yes, Eric obviously wanted to do a lot of damage---but we'll never what what grew that
rage in him. And to suggest that the parents are innocent in all of this, is a bit much.


I'm open to all possibilities--but you seem to be hanging on every word in this book. That's fine, but I don't have to.

[Are_grits_groceries]

25. The parents aren't innocent.

There is plenty of blame to be dealt out for not noticing. If taken all together, what everybody that knew about Dylan and Eric had been pooled then a very different image would have formed. People got enough glances to know they were doing some things, but nobody saw enough to begin to imagine they would shoot up the school.

The book isn't gospel, but what was turned up never really added up to what reached the public at the beginning. Once the story is set, it is hard to make anyone believe otherwise.

[stray cat]

21. Actually it sounded like Eric was doing the bullying

[HelenWheels]

31. That's not unusual for a bully to try to create a bubble for themselves

by bullying in return to try and make others afraid of them so they leave them alone.

[YOY]

28. Perhaps this book isn't really the end-all truth.

"Bowling for Columbine" had some truth in there. I saw interviews with Dylan and Eric's friends that told about some nasty bullying. There were also interviews with kids that knew them but didn't consider them friends and they knew about the bullying and favoritism in the school.

Eric may have been a Sociopath and Dylan a depressed follower but the truth may be stranger than any fiction we want to hone up to. Perhaps we will never really know.

[Nipper1959]

15. They felt the need to change classes by walking outside

There were reports at the time that they had been pushed into lockers and called names.

Name calling is bullying. Much of the name calling also targets others as well: names like fag, gay, retard also victimizes others.

[stray cat]

22. Reports?

[DevonRex]

16. But they do care about themselves. That is how they learn to function

in society even a little bit. Harris had everybody snowed. That's because he learned how to act, how to BS and it was the result of a strong self-preservation instinct.

[HelenWheels]

17. Definition of bullying

http://www.olweus.org/public/bullying.page
Dan Olweus, creator of the Olweus Bullying Prevention Program, provides us with this commonly accepted definition for bullying in his book, Bullying at School: What We Know and What We Can Do:

"A person is bullied when he or she is exposed, repeatedly and over time, to negative actions on the part of one or more other persons, and he or she has difficulty defending himself or herself."

This definition includes three important components:

1. Bullying is aggressive behavior that involves unwanted, negative actions.

2. Bullying involves a pattern of behavior repeated over time.

3. Bullying involves an imbalance of power or strength.


Types of Bullying

Bullying can take on many forms. As part of the Olweus Bullying Questionnaire, students are asked if they have been bullied in any of these nine ways:

1. Verbal bullying including derogatory comments and bad names

2. Bullying through social exclusion or isolation

3. Physical bullying such as hitting, kicking, shoving, and spitting

4. Bullying through lies and false rumors

5. Having money or other things taken or damaged by students who bully

6. Being threatened or being forced to do things by students who bully

7. Racial bullying

8. Sexual bullying

9. Cyber bullying (via cell phone or Internet)

[riderinthestorm]

18. IIRC, isn't this the same author who discovered that the "Christian" targeting meme was false?

But the group that has latched onto this meme persists in perpetuating the myth/lie?

[stray cat]

23. yes

[Are_grits_groceries]

29. Yes.

Those two wanted everyone to die. They were indiscriminate. They didn't look for certain people. They just shot.

Define bullying six ways from Sunday. In their writings and videos, that is never a theme. If it was the core of their problems, I think it would have been the core of their work.

[HelenWheels]

30. could you explain this to me, I've never heard about it

thanks. I've search on line but can't find anything.

[riderinthestorm]

36. From Kiva's article posted just below:

"For example, many in the media initially reported that 17-year-old Cassie Bernall, a Christian, answered "yes" when asked if she believed in God before she was shot to death. She became a poster child for the Evangelical movement after her death. But investigators and student witnesses later told Cullen that it was another student, Valeen Schnurr, who avowed her belief in God as she was shot. Schnurr survived."

The Colorado Springs evangelical community however persists in pushing the Cassie Bernall story even though they know it's a lie.

It's not even ironic, it's just... a lie. They expanded it so that "Christians" were targeted at Columbine(with the inevitable outgrowth over time that all christians are targeted, anytime, anywhere). Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris had no anti-christian agenda at all, they were indiscriminate in their killing but you can't get that fact past the christians who want to have a meme of being oppressed.

[kiva]

33. Yes, the myths had something for everyone.

The Christian right got their martyr, and those seeking an explanation got the description of bullying. The first provided a rationale for fundies--that these boys had rejected religion and hated anyone who was a believer. The rest of us could nod wisely and understand that Harris and Klebold were pushed too far and responded to the taunts of their classmates. Both explanations are simple, but (according to Cullen) wrong. Given that Cullen has spent the last 10 years researching the subject, I'll believe his findings. Here's an article that talks a bit more about the story:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/20/columbine.myths/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

[riderinthestorm]

37. Thanks for the link.

I was just about to run for my Newsweek article that initially clued me in to this last week.

:hi:

I saved the article because the pastor who ministered to Dylan Klebold's family is Don Marxhausen. He married my husband and I in Wheaton 25 years ago and as soon as I saw his picture I was shocked to recognize him and read the article more carefully. Marxhausen was essentially shunned by the "Christian" community because he dared to comfort the Klebold family (who would Jesus say to NOT comfort eh? :eyes: )

He married an atheist (me) and a lapsed Catholic (my husband) in a farm field because he knew us. Really knew us and believed in us. He always was one to follow his heart and his faith. He has a beautiful spirit. I was really upset to hear of how he was cast out of that community for doing exactly as Christ would have wanted any pastor to do. Comfort the afflicted.

[underpants]

35. That sounds a lot like the initial report

not saying it is wrong just that that was what I remember the story was.

we got lucky on the propane-he had that place rigged.

Eric manipulated Dylan like Eric had been manipulated, by what we don't know.

[goddess40]

44. Author was NOT there since the beginning as he claims

He wasn't their when the bullying began and that's where this started.

Many kids have incidents of bullying through out their school years. Those that endure it day after day, year after year are the ones that end up with life long trauma. From what the students in "Bowling for Columbine" said these two boys fell into the latter category.

Cullen is just making assumptions that sell books.

[HelenWheels]

46. Too quick to believe

this author. If I were Eric's parents I would sue Cullen for calling Eric a "sadistic psychopath"as he just did on NPR. Cullen is not a psychologist, psychiatrist, nor does he belong to any of the fields that would be able to diagnose him as a psychopath. Even those with many degrees in those fields have difficulty diagnosing this condition. However, if the parents would sue it would just give this hack author more publicity.

[Are_grits_groceries]

47. He interviewed an FBI psychologist

who was in charge of the domestic terroroism unit for the area. The FBI man's son went to Columbine, and he got tied into the investigation.The GMan reviewed thousands of pages and watched videos. A lot of the videos and writings were by Erivc and Dylan. He headed up a meeting on school shootings months later. Many leading psychologists attended. He presented his findings about Eric with some trepidation. He thought the psycopath label would lead to disputes among the group. It didn't. They agreed with his assessment.

You can call the writer a hack, but names won't change the caliber of work he has done. This wasn't a book done in one week to please the insatiable hunger the public has for info when things like this happen. He didn't issue a diagnosis. He listened to people who had been trained to. He began his story at the attack because he was a reporter there. He also believed a lot of what got sifted around and through. Cullen was as surprised as anyone after he talked to hundreds of people and looked at hundreds of pages. He used multiple sources where he could.

I may believe too much, but I looked at his history, his methodology and his sources. I think he is a lot closer to the truth 10 years later than people were at the time. There is more info of the overall picture that is available. In addition, he had the time to talk to a lot of people and examine the ideas that had been floating around.

[HelenWheels]

49. And what does the FBI know about bullying and it's effects

I'd wager they know little to nothing. And since when is the FBI infallible, they like to tie things up in neat packages. Besides they are used to dealing with adults not children.

[Are_grits_groceries]

52. Whatever. nt

[Raskolnik]

54. If the shoe fits...

From what I've heard of & from this author on NPR and Slate, it seems that he's fairly interested in sorting out the facts from the urban legends that took hold almost immediately after the incident.

[TRUEBELIEVER 66]

48. Hard to believe it's been 10 years already..

Didn't those guy's pick 4-20 because it was Hitler's b-day??

[Are_grits_groceries]

50. yes.

Waco and McVeigh were on the 19th.