And Now You Know Why Having A FISA Court Is So Important Regarding Wiretaps....

[Blackhatjack]

The FISA Court has been criticized as nothing more than a rubber stamp for US Intelligence Agencies seeking warrants for wiretaps, given that the requests are almost always granted and the Agencies have months to actually submit the request after they have already done the surveillance.

However, without the FISA Court you can get the following situation. Agencies wiretap whoever they desire, keep the information inhouse, and use that information however they see fit since there is no oversight and reporting requirements.

With the FISA Court requirement, instances of wiretapping require eventual notification of the Court which leads to oversight of how the wiretap is performed and what was the outcome. This is a natural preventative from misuse of the information gleaned to blackmail targets since the FISA Court knows a wiretap took place, and they know who was the target of the wiretap, and they will have questions if there is nothing presented subsequently.

And thus the danger of 'warrantless wiretaps' is revealed.

It would be possible to have a majority of Congressional representatives under surveillance and WHO OUTSIDE THE AGENCY is going to know about it, or how that information was used?

[HereSince1628]

1. You are a trusting soul to think that the agencies truthfully and completely report back to FISA

You are a good person at heart.

[Blackhatjack]

2. You completely missed the point ... it is the fact that a 3rd Party knows that deters misconduct

Agencies may lie or report incompletely about their activities to the FISA Court.

However, it is the fact that the FISA Court must eventually be notified of the wiretap, the target of the wiretap, and the time frame over which the wiretap took place, that deters the Agencies from wiretapping anyone they choose, collecting whatever information they want and using that information with impunity.

The fact that the FISA Court must be informed to make the wiretap legal plays an important role, even though the FISA Court almost never turns down a request for such a warrant.

[dkofos]

7. Just like the death penalty deters murder.

:rofl:

:rofl:

:rofl:

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. Nonetheless, there is a written record that a wiretap was requested,

and a report on that wiretap is mandated. Whether they are honest and truthful about what is reported is a secondary matter.

And you never know who, in these agencies, will actually have a soul, and a conscience, and report violations.

If there is not standard to be violated, there can be no violations to report.

[HereSince1628]

4. Well IMHO you both missed an important point. This system is based on trust.

It assumes no one would proceed without asking permission.

Do you really think that the NSA and CIA, or other alphabet soup will ALWAYS ask FISA?

If you do, you have a trusting heart and are probably a very good person.

It is a stretch for me to believe that folks in intelligence always share your personality profile. In that world there are good and wonderful people. But there are also people who, like Dick Cheney, are driven by what they think is absolutely necessary regardless of the legal niceties.

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. And you missed my point -

Not EVERYONE in any of the alphabet soup agencies is evil incarnate. Some, it turns out, are even whistleblowers, and when they provide information about egregious violations then somebody will get in trouble.

Having FISA provides a baseline for legality. If you have no baseline, the EVERYTHING is legal, because there is no definition of illegal. Get it? Violations cannot be reported when there are no standards to be violated.

It is NOT just about trust - it is self interest. Person A is not going to make an illegal wiretap if it is possible that Person B, C, or D might want Person A out of the way because Person B wants his job, Person C wants his parking place or Person D wants his wife. Or even Person E thinks such violations of the law are actually wrong.

Does it happen often? No. But it might happen often enough to make them cautious.

[HereSince1628]

8. No, I got your point. You expect people to observe a law.

The law provides a standard for legal behavior and also provisions for penalties for illegall behavior.

But you can't be prosecuted if you aren't caught. As we are seeing with Cheney and torture, sometimes you can't be prosecuted even if you are caught.

When intelligence goes over to "working on the darkside" as Cheney called it, there will be no request, but the hand that taps into the information stream will think it is legitimate. Whistleblowers are great, but they must have something to whistle about. Compartmentalization and the illusion of everything being normal is how this gets done. And it was done, it is done, and it will be done. If not by our own government agents then by contractors.

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. NO YOU DIDN'T

Listen to what I say.

I expect people to look out for their own self interest. The FISA court provides a baseline. ANYBODY can report ANYBODY who violates that. I fully expect these people to illegally wiretap. But prior to Bushco, there was enough of

fuck it.

I've said it twice. You figure it the fuck out.

[WeDidIt]

5. Yep, we'll probably never hear anything about the non-FISA wire taps

Those are so secret I bet Obama won't ever see what they turned up.