Ten Years After Columbine, It's Easier to Bear Arms

[onehandle]

Columbine High School students watch as the last of their fellow students are evacuated from the school in 1999. Flags will fly at half-mast across Colorado as it remembers the Columbine High School massacre, 10 years after the tragedy that left 13 people dead and 23 others wounded.
________________________________

Monday April 20 marks 10 years since Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold permanently etched the words Columbine High School into this nation's collective memory. What happened that day in 1999 also seemed to wake America up to the reality that it had become a nation of gun owners - and too often a nation of shooters.

The carnage in Littleton, Colorado - 12 classmates and a teacher before the killers offed themselves - and the ease with which the teenagers acquired their weapons (two sawed-off shotguns, a 9-mm semiautomatic carbine and a TEC-9 handgun) seemed to usher in a new era of, well if not gun control, then at least gun awareness.

In the decade since, massacres perpetrated by deranged gunmen have continued - including the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre in which Cho Seung-Hui killed 32 people and wounded many others. But something odd has occurred. Whatever momentum the Columbine killings gave to gun control has long since petered out.

This spring, for example, Texas lawmakers are mulling a new law that would allow college students to carry firearms to campus (Utah already makes this legal). "I think people weren't concerned about it first," says University of Texas graduate student John Woods, who has emerged as a spokesman for campus efforts to defeat the bill. "They thought, 'It's a terrible idea. Why would the government consider something like this?'" But as the debate on campus has heated up, that complacency has vanished, Woods explains to TIME. Students opposed to the bill plan a big rally on Thursday at the Capitol, he says.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090420/us_time/08599189141600

[uppityperson]

1. It has only been 10 yrs, seems like it's been longer.

so much has happened in the last 10 yrs.

[defendandprotect]

2. Good to reflect back on this horrible event -- and I think there is much

still we don't know about it --- very questionable!!

Yeah . . . everyone should have a gun --- !!!!

If we don't get control of the GOP/NRA fascist influence on Congress everyone soon will!!!

[Demobrat]

6. Everyone who wants one already does.

And if they don't they can get one, legally or illegally, with no problem. It's too late to even try to control guns in any way. The gun nuts have won lock, stock, and barrel, and all that's left is for us to admit as a society that the profits of gun manufacturers are more important - much, much more important - than the lives of a few innocent victims.

[doctor jazz]

8. I have guns and I'm gay. Why don't you just go ahead and call me a gun nut faggot?

You know you want to.
:grr:
One is every fucking bit as offensive as the other.
FU

[damntexdem]

11. You have guns, but are you a gunnut?

For example, if you support allowing concealed carry on college campuses, then you are a gunnut -- and your sexual orientation has nothing to do with it.

[doctor jazz]

12. I support concealed carrying by anyone of legal age with a clean criminal record

and who has taken a gun safety course. I'm just goddamned sick and tired of assholes telling me I can't take advantage of the Bill of Rights because it makes somebody uncomfortable.

[defendandprotect]

86. Join a militia --- ???

[virginia mountainman]

14. I DO, have a CCW, and I do carry on a collage campus......

What they don't know wont hurt them, and if they find out, all they can do is ask me to leave, since I am NOT a student. Kinda hard to get around Blacksburg and Radford Virginia without ending up on school property.

I do not define myself as a "gun nut fascist" I define myself as a Progressive American....

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[virginia mountainman]

111. Coward? NO, a realist,

That understands bad things happen to good people. And that a significant number of criminals are more than willing to kill me, or my family for a few bucks.

So, like I carry a few basic tools in my car, for basic car repair on the road..

Like the spare tire in the trunk, that is their, in case it is needed

Like the fire extinguisher in the kitchen, stoically waits, for the call that we hope we never need to make..

My pistol rests, in its holster, awaiting the call I PRAY I NEVER NEED TO MAKE...But if needed, it will be their.

[Demobrat]

28. What does being a gun nut have to do with sexual orientation?

Explain please.

[doctor jazz]

61. What indeed. Anyone who's enough of an ignorant bigot to call someone a faggot will stoop to

calling someone a 'gun nut' and not have the modicum of intelligence to see how it's just as offensive.

[Demobrat]

64. Last I heard one was a choice.

The other was not. To even include them in the same sentence is offensive all right - to the ones with no choice. The ones who are not gun nuts, anyway.

[doctor jazz]

65. So if I choose to exercise my Second Amendment rights, I deserve the pejorative "gun nut"

appellation?????

Actually, I don't even care what the gun-grabbing assholes say or think, they won't win this one. Not in the United States of America and not in this lifetime.

[Demobrat]

72. The point of my first post.

It's true. You and yours have won the day, with the price to be paid by others, the innocent victims and their loved ones, simply because we as a society decided long ago that they just don't matter. Certainly not in comparison to the right of the arms manufacturers to flood the country with so much firepower that any high school kid who wants a gun, or a few guns, can get them with no problem.

[doctor jazz]

75. I got my first gun at age 7 in 1949. I taught marksmanship in 2 different police departments

and in the United States military. I am very very happy that people like you who don't give a rat's ass about the Bill of Rights have lost their bid to deny them to me and half of the citizens of the USA .

I guess society wins after all. Utopia is a rat dream that only idiots believe in. Sorry.

[Demobrat]

76. Thousands of innocent victims a year

agree with you.

[depakid]

89. The poster's too self-absorbed to care about anything like that

It's me, me, me- to hell with the effects on the rest of society.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

98. If you are so concerned start a movement to Amend the Constitution.

[spin]

155. Many thousands of people who used a firearm for legal self defense...

have a different opinion.

There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually. However these surveys each had their flaws which prompted Dr. Kleck to conduct his own study specifically tailored to estimate the number of DGU's annually.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

For the sake of argument let's say all these estimates are exaggerated by a factor of five. So firearms are used for self defense 160,000 to 500,000 times a year. In 2006 there were 31,000 deaths caused by firearms, half of which were suicides. (ref: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/30/suicides-half-of-gun-deat_n_110043.html)

Without a firearm for self defense many of the innocent people at the mercy of the attacker would have suffered serious injury or death.

It is possible to check on reported incidents of the use of firearms for self defense at http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html. There are extensive archives on the left of the page.

Note that these are incidents that were reported by the media. My daughter was able to stop an intruder forcing the sliding glass door of our home open, by pointing a revolver at him. The police responded and filed a report. The intruder who fled was never caught and the incident never made the newspaper.

[MajorChode]

149. Oh bullshit

It's obviously not "just as offensive" and anyone with at least 2 synapses actively firing can figure that one out. Assuming as much is offensive to those who get genuinely offended at actual bigotry.

And the term "nut" is used quite often around here to describe all sorts of people like wingnuts, religious nuts, fringe nuts, etc. That sure as fuck doesn't mean that anyone who cares to use such terms is a bigot under any reasonable and sane interpretation. Furthermore just being a gun owner does not make one a gun "nut". So either you're just pretending to be offended or perhaps you genuinely were and you just need to grow the fuck up a bit. Either way your assertion is soundly rejected.

[defendandprotect]

73. You really want to encourage your child to bring a gun to school . . ?

No -- I don't think the NRA is satisfied with their membership numbers --
nor gun manufacturers satisfied with their sales --

They want lots of women and young adults to have gungs --
they want "concealed weapons" to be common place in society.

If you saw what the Governor of Pennsylvania recently said about guns, our
police departments are being "out gunned" by criminals.

If it has gotten as far away from us as you're suggesting then we will ALL be
at the mercy of gun-gangs. Our options then will be much fewer.

Personally, I think we have to think about the fact that our own Congress is
"petrified" of the NRA --

and what connection/role the NRA plays for the GOP.

It's part of the GOP propaganda machine and part of GOP fascist agenda.

American's are tired of the Drug War and violence -- and we certainly don't need
to be feeding Mexican drug war any more than we are already doing -- not supplying
any more guns for drug dealers there.

We all have to take a closer look at the NRA.

[polichick]

3. Even Dems on this board seem proud of stockpiling weapons and ammo.

[kestrel91316]

5. Not me. I'm not afraid of boogeymen. I suppose when I retire I might get

a gun for the varmints to keep them out of my sweet corn.

[damntexdem]

19. But that's not the issue. Some may have reason to 'stockpile.'

For example, they may target shoot, so need considerable amounts of ammunition. The issue is not what they have, rather what they support.

[polichick]

21. Well, I've been a Dem activist for decades and it's only recently...

...that I've heard of Dems stockpiling guns and ammo ~ some on this board even mention a distrust of government, as if they imagine a scenario where they'd go up against the military or something.

The police in Philly are out-gunned, with 40 officers losing their lives since the assault weapons ban was lifted (according to Gov. Rendell, who's been going around talking about it this week).

[virginia mountainman]

26. All he is doing is selling more guns..

By the way, I have been a Union Activist since the early 1970's

I WILL, stand for all the Bill of Rights, even the ones a few other Democrats do not want.

Wayne LaPierre, had him for lunch on the TV the other day, and called him out on his bullshit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acokf3c-D3k

[polichick]

27. Where in the Bill of Rights does it say every American gets to own assault weapons??

[virginia mountainman]

29. Define "Assault Weapons" first.....NT

[polichick]

30. Yeah, right - NOWHERE! You've been listening to NRA propaganda too long.

[virginia mountainman]

31. LOL!!

Okay, I will bite....No matter what definition you use....

The real definition..Or the "republican" Sara Brady version..

The 2nd Amendment, does...

If you don't understand that, you need to go to school.

[polichick]

33. Nice try. I went to the same school as the prez:

Address Gun Violence in Cities: Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof.They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/urban_policy/

[virginia mountainman]

35. No one is perfect....

And besides, the Congress is solidly Pro-Gun, including many Democrats that get it!

[polichick]

36. Don't think you'd find many real Dems who champion Wayne LaPierre...

How pathetic!

[virginia mountainman]

37. Shows how much you know..

I bet you would not recognize a "Real Dem" even if she was to walk up too you and slap you across the face....

Driving my own car was one of the issues the Secret Service people and I had a battle about at the very start. The Secret Service prefers to have an agent go with the President’s wife, but I did not want either a chauffeur or a Secret Service agent always with me; I never did consent to having a Secret Service agent. After the head of the Secret Service found I was not going to allow an agent to accompany me everywhere, he went one day to Louis Howe , plunked a revolver down on the table and said ‘Well, all right, if Mrs. Roosevelt is going to drive around the country alone, at least ask her to carry this in the car.’ I carried it religiously and during the summer I asked a friend, a man who had been one of Franklin’s bodyguards in New York State, to give me some practice in target shooting so that if the need arose I would know how to use the gun.” — Eleanor Roosevelt

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[virginia mountainman]

42. Actullly it has more than you know..

That Revolver, fires, only one time, every time the trigger is pulled..

The "so called" assault rifles that some want to ban....Fires, only ONE time, every time the trigger is pulled.

:rofl:

[polichick]

43. While you're worshipping assholes like Wayne LaPierre, I'll trust...

...Obama and his team to get the ban right.

[virginia mountainman]

44. What exactly do you want them to ban?!?!

Machine guns have been TIGHTLY regulated, virtually banned since the 1930's

Semi-autos, and Double actions, have been around for well over 100 years, and are the most common firearms in America....


Now tell me again, just what do you want to ban???? Please Define it???

[polichick]

46. Whatever they decide it takes to help protect the police in cities like Philly...

...innocent school children, shoppers in malls, etc.

I'm sick of the gun clingers in this country ~ that obsession is some sick shit.

[virginia mountainman]

47. Who's a "Gun Clinger"??

You referring to folks like Mrs Roosevelt??

[polichick]

50. I'll take the intentional idiocy as awareness that you've got nothing. See ya :)

[virginia mountainman]

51. Must be hard, being on the loosing team

But, that is what you get, when you take a stance that is repugnant to the Bill of Rights.

[krispos42]

71. How are your first two sentences different from...

...the people that cheer for torture, denial of due process, indefinate detention, extraordinary rendition, etc?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

105. Assault weapons have a negligible use in crime, so you will have to set your sights higher to achiev...

what you seek. After Heller, it is not going to happen.

[Iktomiwicasa]

52. "They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent."

Which is political suicide. Is that what you really want?

[virginia mountainman]

56. Read on down..

She is one of these Purists, that will follow a incredibly unpopular political stance, against the will of the people, NO MATTER HOW MANY DEMOCRATIC SEATS WE LOOSE IN THE PROCESS.

She said earlier that she has been an activist for 10 years, she did not see the massive losses we incurred 7 weeks after the first, AW Ban passed..

[solinvictus]

68. Whoopdee shit...

..you went to the same school as the current prez? Big deal, you still show not a modicum of understanding of firearms. An "assault weapons" ban is a completely subjective term that simply enumerates several scary features highlighted by idiot career politicians who have not even a tacit understanding of firearms or criminal statistics. The first ban had no tangible affect on crime; none. Even Russ Feingold opposed renewing it in 2004 because he's honest: his rationale was that the AWB had no affect on crime because "assault weapons" simply aren't used enough to impact statistics.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

104. Which school? You are aware that there was a rifle range at his high school

which had shooting teams and taught it as one of several PE electives.

[jmg257]

45. In the 2nd amendment. In the Constitution, it is in Article 1, Section 8.

Originally covered under 'arming...the Militia'.

Specifically secured for the people under 'arms' in the BoR.

[polichick]

48. You're late to the scene: the correct answer is NOWHERE...

The Bill of Rights does not mention "assault weapons" ~ stop spewing NRA propaganda here.

[virginia mountainman]

53. The Bill of Rights...Does not mention Abortion...

Your treading on dangerous waters their.....

[jmg257]

54. Never too late to teach...so I provided the correct answers. Again, they are covered under 'arms'.

And more specifically under arms that would be effective for arming the Militias, or for people to own for the taking of game, for defense, or for other lawful purposes.

Keeping and bearing them is first secured for the people in Article 1, Section 8, then secured more explicitly in the 2nd amendment.

[Iktomiwicasa]

55. But you still haven't

defined "assault weapon"

[virginia mountainman]

57. She did...

Whatever they decide it takes to help protect the police in cities like Philly

Her words, not mine..... Sounds like a Rethug screaming terra' terra' to me...

[Iktomiwicasa]

63. Well, since I don't live in a "city like Philly"

I suppose she isn't too worried about the arms I own here in rural south Dakota :)

[spin]

156. And the First Amendment doesn't mention TV or computers.(n/t)

[quiller4]

159. Bill of Rights mentions "arms" that covers it. n/t

[defendandprotect]

91. So you're also entitled to an AK47 or any other military weapon????

Or are you going to fight off government that comes to take your guns with

simply . . . a gun?

[krispos42]

70. Legal unless otherwise stated

That's how free societies operate, or so I've been led to believe.


And what makes an "assault weapon" an "assault weapon"?


In other words, exactly what charactaristics are you trying to prevent Americans from owning?

[krispos42]

69. If Rendell is saying that, he might as well link color TV to the homicide rate

Or automotive fuel-injection.





In fact, the trend towards "other guns", i.e., non-handguns (of which the AK-47, AR-15 and SKS are a part of) reached a fairly steady level in 1985, 10 years before the 1993 AWB. And in fact there was a sharp DROP after the 1993 AWB expired.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/leok.htm



Correlation does not imply causation.

[defendandprotect]

74. Right . . . and if you can have a gun of any kind, why not a bunker buster . . .

or any other newer weapon to fight government with?

It all becomes insanely a downward spiral into more violence in society which
only benefits the GOP and TPB -- those who profit from fear-mongering, Drug Wars --
and violence.

The idea that "gun-owners" are going to defend themselves against corrupt government
has always struck me as hilarious -- and I think Katrina proved that point.

And, heaven help you if the gun-owner was "black" . . . !!!

[polichick]

122. Pretty soon the NRA will claim that 2nd Amendment rights include tanks & fighter planes!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

103. Rendell is flake and an anti gun bigot...how many of those officers were killed by

real assault weapons? The probability is minuscule. Also most cops have shotguns and rifles in the car. Some departments are issuing full auto weapons to non SWAT officers. Out gunned? Thats laughable and a damned lie.

Is Rendell in some sort of political trouble that he has to whip up a fake frenzy like this?

[defendandprotect]

88. I see it as the GOP/NRA . . . and their message and support seems to come . . .

mainly from the right wing.

Who benefits from a wealthier NRA, from more gun production, from more violence

in our cities?

Dems?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. And you can download that awful Marilyn Manson from the interweb these days.

Isn't that scary?

[No More Bushbots]

7. A fine demonstration of Right Wing tactics

Using fear to further a political agenda.
:applause:

[TahitiNut]

9. "the tragedy that left 13 people dead "??? CORRECTION: it left FIFTEEN dead.

The understandable desire to exclusively memorialize the innocent victims shouldn't lead to outright LIES.

[Rebubula]

25. If you are referring....

...to the two guys that did the killing....Fuck them.

They should be buried in unmarked graves and should only be referred to as the 'murderers of Columbine Students'

You call it a lie...I call it trying to forget that two assholes shot up a school and killed 13 people.

6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another. In the end, 13 were murdered and 2 assholes committed suicide. Would that work for you?

[defendandprotect]

90. There are many questions about the two who did the killings . . .

they seem to have been saturated with psychiatric drugs --

and evidently their activities -- at least bomb making -- had been reported

to the police.

I've not read anything on this story in a long time -- I'm sure there is much

new info I'm not aware of.

But if we fail to acknowledge who these people truly were, we fail to learn anything

from the experience.

[damntexdem]

10. On campuses in Texas, we're fighting the idiotic campus-concealed-carry bill.

For what good it will do. Our faculty senate unanimously endorsed a resolution against campus-concealed-carry. Of course, that will be all the more inducement for some nutcases in the legislature to push the bill. Still, the GOP has only a 2-vote margin in the House, and that is where a lot of idiocy will be stopped this year.

[virginia mountainman]

17. You do realize..

The vast majority of Students are ineligible for a CCW license (21 is the min age) and Gun Free zones are totaly ineffectual.

For the most part, you are only disarming Yourself, and your staff.

But don't worry, that "No Guns" sign WILL, stop a killer....

RIGHT?!?!?!?!?!



Some of us, believe in the US Bill of Rights.....Others, don't

[damntexdem]

20. There are many students over age 21 on campuses, particularly mine.

And I WANT myself and other faculty members disarmed. If I have to dodge bullets from a nutcase, I don't want to be dodging bullets from multiple sources. And unless one is very-well trained in the use of firearms, and often not even then, the sudden occurrence of a risk can induce one to act in totally-incompetent, if not nutcase, ways. If others are shooting and I have a gun, who am I most likely to shoot? First of all, myself. Or if I miss myself, some innocent bystander. Campuses -- the administration, most faculty, most staff, and most students -- do not want concealed carry to be legalized on campus. And campuses want it clear that there are severe sanctions for those (other than police and other authorized guards) who illegally carry concealed firearms onto campuses.

[virginia mountainman]

23. The vast majority of, CCW holders take it extremly serious

I am glad you know YOUR limitations, and I am not advocating it for everyone.

But is a coworker of yours, is willing to train, and jump thru the legal hoops to carry a concealed handgun (that no one would know about) why would you be against it??

The Pearl Mississippi, student that started shooting up the school, was STOPPED, when challenged by the vice principle, with a gun, he got from his vehicle.

The Appalachia Law School shooting, here in Southwest Virginia, stop killing people, when TWO students, retrieved their personal firearms from their vehicles, and faced him down in a hallway.

Don't be so knee jerk on this, think about it.

I am certain you realize that a "gun free" zone is completely incapable of stopping ANYONE bent on death and destruction, all it does, is tell them that they will NOT be stopped..

[defendandprotect]

78. Guns were removed from society because they were more of a threat . . .

to society than a benefit--!!!

Meanwhile, the only people who profit from violence are the GOP, NRA and

gun dealers!

Oh, yeah -- funeral parlors!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

107. Not to society, but the ruling class. Read up omn it world wide

In the US it has clear racist roots that over time have become more class based. In NYC the rich have guns, the poor do not.

[defendandprotect]

128. The ruling class armed a Confederate Army to keep slavery going for them - !!!

But, certainly re Katrina, while guns were confiscated, they seem to have SHOT first

at African-americans BEFORE TAKING THEIR GUNS!!

Whether you have them and they take them, or you never have them ---

or they give them to you to fight their perpetual wars -- really doesn't make much

difference, does it?

It is patriarchy which keeps wars and general violence going because if we stopped to

really think about what's going on, we'd CHANGE things!

[defendandprotect]

77. And what could suit the GOP "know-nothings" more than totally destroying education this way-???

[defendandprotect]

84. I'm sure guns will make rape on campus easier ... !!!

[Geek_Girl]

13. Allowing guns on campus just sounds like a really bad idea to me

I have guns in my home. But I strongly support gun legislation of any kind. The whole reason I have guns in my home is because some kids easily attained guns around my neighborhood and started shooting at my back yard.

[Caliman73]

40. So then you would support legislation that made it illegal to have those firearms in your home?

That is the intention of the Brady organization. They are working incrementally towards the elimination of private firearms ownership. Do you think those kids who shot into your backyard, already breaking the law by doing so, are going to care that they possess illegal firearms. Would you turn your firearms in and comply with said legislation or would you continue to retain your guns and be a criminal.

[doc03]

15. If the teachers would have been packin

that many students wouldn't have been killed.

[onehandle]

16. Teachers trained to blow away kids.

Yeah. That wouldn't backfire.

[virginia mountainman]

18. Their NOT KIDS...

When they are shooting up a classroom unopposed.....

[defendandprotect]

94. The answer to that violence isn't more violence by adding guns . ..

The answers lie in studying why adults in their lives were so lax in

dealing with reports of their "bomb-making" -- and as I recall it, that

included the police!!!

[virginia mountainman]

115. Than why do we send the police in ....

Usually long after the shooting stops....WITH GUNS DRAWN.....


You can reason with most people, but, when a gun, is used in an offensive manner, against innocent people...the solution is nearly ALWAYS, to send MORE people in, WITH MORE GUNS...

[Sanctified]

34. If you don't trust a teacher with a gun how could you possibly trust them with a child? n/t

[anonymous171]

41. Anti-gun people don't trust anyone with a gun. Besides the police.

And they never misuse their guns. :eyes:

[defendandprotect]

83. Frankly, IMO, most people would be happier if we began to reverse the whole belief-in-guns myth . .

I'm not happy with anyone feeling the need for a gun -- and it doesn't help either

to escalate police enforcement . . . which is dangerous enough with tasers.

Why don't we start small and give everyone a slingshot?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

108. Far from it. The weak would be victimized at an even higher rate

The police are there only after the incident until they get some form of reliable prescience a la The Minority Report. Until then women, the elderly, and the rest of the general population need some effective form of defense against being attacked.

If you want to address something useful, work on lowering the violence and crime and decreasing the number of people who choose to prey on others. Then the self defense crowd will be much quieter.

[defendandprotect]

125. The "weaker" are being "out-gunned" now . . . murder victims and police officers killed - !!!

75 percent of the murders in Dallas have been committed by GUN--!!!

[virginia mountainman]

130. The Police can legaly carry machine guns....

Who is outgunning who???

I have NEVER seen a gun commit anything, matter of fact, and I just checked, ALL< of mine are exactly where I left them.

100 Percent of the murders in Dallas have been committed by MURDERERS

[defendandprotect]

131. See that's just where sanity actually stops most of us . . .

because no matter what weapons you give police . . .

the criminals will also soon have them.

Sorry, but those are the exact words of the Dallas police reports . . .

"75 percent of all murders in Dallas are by GUN" . . .

:eyes:

[damntexdem]

22. No, more likely would have been wounded and killed.

Teachers are not generally trained to be snipers. Keep guns away from schools as best one can.

[virginia mountainman]

24. Lots of teachers are ex military....

I ask again, what does a "gun free" zone do to keep the kids from being killed by people that intend to commit mass murder???

[onehandle]

59. Yeah, I remember my teacher. Mr. Rambo, I think he was called.

He'd say, "Any of you little fuckers make a peep and I'll blow your fucking head off!"

Ah, Good times.

[doctor jazz]

62. Congratulations, you have now added puerile humor to your repertoire of lying.

...

[defendandprotect]

126. I had a nun we used to call "Rambo" . . . !!!

liked your post!

[defendandprotect]

82. Who are these people who intend to commit mass murder?

How about some mental health help for this nation and, especially, right-wingers?

[doc03]

58. You saying teachers can't be trained? If you take

the CC course in my state you are trained in the laws of the state CC laws, safety and learn to shoot your weapon at the range. If I was in a situation such as Columbine I would take my chances of possibly someone accidentally being shot rather than a nut shooting 13. We always hear this BS about someone could accidentally be shot by a person carring a weopon. Someone could also be shot in the crossfire from a policemans weopon.

[onehandle]

60. How about we just wrap the teachers in TNT like in a Road Runner cartoon.

Any of the kids move funny...

BOOM!

[defendandprotect]

79. Or the "packin" teachers would be dead, as well now . . .

[spin]

157. Remember the teacher who was the hero of the Virginia Tech massace?...

By now, you may have heard of Liviu Librescu, the Virginia Tech professor who was killed as he barricaded the door to give his students time to jump out the second story window of his classroom:

"My father blocked the doorway with his body and asked the students to flee," Librescu's son, Joe Librescu, said Tuesday in a telephone interview from his home outside Tel Aviv. "Students started opening windows and jumping out."
http://history.the-environmentalist.org/2008/04/remembering-virginia-tech-hero-liviu.html

Assume that this man or a teacher with similar courage had a concealed handgun. He could have sought cover behind his desk and pointed his weapon at the door. When the shooter burst in, he could have ascertained that he was the threat and fired. Chances are he could have seriously wounded the shooter or killed him.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

161. How do you suppose that?

Lebrescu kept the door shut. In this case Cho could burst through the door and just keep firing, not stopping. How do you suppose one had the chance to pull the trigger?

[LanternWaste]

32. Very, very sad...

Very, very sad. Lots of weapons. Lots of people with a less than savory agenda. Very sad indeed.

It was about that time my own sense of prudence kicked in and I decided to avoid any civilian carrying whenever and wherever possible. (and before the righteously indignant tiredly chime in, let me quickly say, "yes, I know... but I play the odds...")

ed: sp

[virginia mountainman]

38. Actually, that is good sense..

Especially if you don't know their intent...

[dysfunctional press]

49. and people who think that's going to change anytime soon are just goofy.

if columbine couldn't get the nation's psyche on the issue to change- what will?

give it up, and move on to an issue that stands a chance in hell- because this one just doesn't.

[chrisa]

66. I'm very pro-2nd amendment, pro-guns, and...

also in favor in strict gun control. To the nay-sayers - can't you see an obvious difference between gun control in the correct term of the word (as opposed to calling an idiotic gun ban bill 'gun control), and horrible bills that sometimes creep their way forward.

I see nothing wrong with ensuring that the mentally insane don't get guns. I think it should be somewhat difficult to get a gun. However, banning types of guns because they look scary, or because of knee-jerk reaction is not well thought out and draconian.

[defendandprotect]

80. If the fascist GOP/NRA continue on to these insane ideas . . .

and it looks like they will . . . I don't think the public will fear gun control laws

as much as they fear the violent right!

[depakid]

85. Amazing how often the word "draconian" is applied

to a simple matter of keeping cowardly or obsessed sorts from getting hold of military style assault weapons- or laws designed to keep them from proliferating.

Whenever I hear that, I have to laugh (even though it's not really all that funny).

[beevul]

127. Translation

"a simple matter of keeping cowardly or obsessed sorts from getting hold of military style assault weapons- or laws designed to keep them from proliferating."

Cowardly sorts - those that opt for a concealed carry permit.

Obsessed sorts - those that LIKE guns - enthusiasts.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

67. and yet their were fewer gun homicides in 2007 than in 1999.

[defendandprotect]

81. Except in the GOP's Iraq and Afghanistan . . .!!!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

93. Because that's what we are talking about right.

[defendandprotect]

95. What we're talking about is the GOP/NRA gun-myths . .. and who profits from fearmongering and

gun violence -- !!!

Not to mention this latest attempt of the "know-nothings" to totally destroy

higher education. What could suit them more!?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

96. Then why did you bring up Iraq and Afghanistan?

[defendandprotect]

99. Are we using bows and arrows in Afghanistan and Iraq?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

100. I'm sorry I thought you were smart enough to know we were talking about the US.

[defendandprotect]

101. I'm smart enough to understand that violence is all connected . . .

and much of it to guns/weapons --

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

102. Then how is it possible that gun murders in the US were lower in 2007 than 1999?

If gun proliferation and connected violence is the cause the murder rate should have at least doubled. Surely with two wars, the escalation of civilian violence in Iraq and Afghanistan, the genocide in Darfur and the expiration of the Assault Weapons Ban we would have seen a huge increase. That is if violence is all connected.

David

[defendandprotect]

113. And what are you using . . . GOP/NRA statistics . . .

Let's see them . . .

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

117. The DOJ and the FBI actually.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/guncrimetab.htm

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/index.html

[X_Digger]

118. Doh!!

How dare you step into the middle of an emotional flailing and stomp on it with reality.

Oh, the moral panic! Save the moral panic!

[defendandprotect]

120. The FBI statistics suggest gun violence has increased --- !!!

Nor do I see anything that says any purported DROP in gun violence has anything to
do with more citizens arming themselves -- you could argue it had to do with more
authoritarian government - Bush, for instance?

And, as far as I can see the number of MURDERS with firearms has risen . . .

1999 1,341,586 25.2 15,533 65.2 409,670 39.9 916,383 18.0
2000 1,334,103 25.6 15,517 65.6 407,842 40.9 910,744 18.1
2001 1,346,120 26.4 15,980 69.5 422,921 42.0 907,219 18.3
2002 1,331,189 26.9 16,204 66.7 420,637 42.1 894,348 19.0
2003 1,287,826 27.0 16,503 66.9 413,402 41.8 857,921 19.1
2004 1,272,374 26.6 16,137 66.0 401,326 40.6 854,911 19.3
2005 1,296,761 28.4 16,692 68.0 417,122 42.1 862,947 21.0
2006 1,325,290 29.3 17,034 67.9 447,403 42.2 860,853 21.9

Whether you're talking about MURDER, ROBBERY or AGGRAVATED ASSAULT . . . with firearms!

PLUS . . . what about suicide by gun and gun "accidents" . . . ?

I'll look at the figures again later --


Meanwhile, there is nothing here which tells us the overall impact of our involvement in
two wars and the ensuring deaths -- both to our troops and to innocent civilians,
now estimated to be well over 200,000 in Iraq.
That was the point I was making about "violence breeding violence."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

123. A link to those figures they are dramatically different from the FBI and DOJ?

My statement wasn't that there was a steady decline it was that there were fewer in 2007 than 1999. Although there is a dramatic decline when compared to the statistics from 10 years prior. The 1990's were very violent.


David

[defendandprotect]

124. They are on the LINK you provided . . . on the page you supplied --- !!!????

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

132. You must have screwed up when you pasted then because it looks like you have total homicides listed.

[defendandprotect]

133. Percentage of Murders, Robbers & Assaults committed with firearms INCREASED ... per FBI . . .

I "screwed up" . .. ???

I "copy and pasted" the statistics from the second table on which the first table is based!!!

Recheck your statistics ...


Go to your link and you will notice there are TWO tables . . .

Two tables on estimated firearm crime

Note: These numbers are estimates calculated from the data presented below
which are from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports as published annually in
Crime in the United States.

In other words, the first table reports estimates based on the second table ...
which I am quoting from--!!!


Go down to the SECOND table . . .

which reports . . .

Percent of murders, robberies, and aggravated assaults in which firearms were used, 1973 to 2006


TOTAL MURDERS ROBBERIES AGGRAVATED ASSAULTS
--------------------------------------------------

PERCENT OF EACH COMMITTED WITH FIREARMS
-------------------------------------------------
1999 1,341,586 25.2 15,533 65.2 409,670 39.9 916,383 18.0
2000 1,334,103 25.6 15,517 65.6 407,842 40.9 910,744 18.1
2001 1,346,120 26.4 15,980 69.5 422,921 42.0 907,219 18.3
2002 1,331,189 26.9 16,204 66.7 420,637 42.1 894,348 19.0
2003 1,287,826 27.0 16,503 66.9 413,402 41.8 857,921 19.1
2004 1,272,374 26.6 16,137 66.0 401,326 40.6 854,911 19.3
2005 1,296,761 28.4 16,692 68.0 417,122 42.1 862,947 21.0
2006 1,325,290 29.3 17,034 67.9 447,403 42.2 860,853 21.9

Source: FBI, Crime in the United States, annually.
*************************************************************

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

134. Serious violent crime levels declined since 1993. DOJ

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm

[defendandprotect]

137. Oh, now you want to use different statistics . . . ???

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

144. It was in response to your post, duh.

[defendandprotect]

146. Yes, I asked you what statistics you were basing your claims on . . . you gave an FBI link --!!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

152. Yes a link to the FBI CIUS Home Page. All of the information that I have used are in the reports...

contained there. The data from 1997 and 1999 is from the DOJ charts that you have already referenced.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

135. Nonfatal firearm-related crime has plummeted since 1993, before increasing in 2005.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/firearmnonfatalno.htm

[defendandprotect]

138. Get back to the original statistics you supplied .. . FBI statistics . . .

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

143. I supplied the DOJ links also.

[defendandprotect]

147. Now you are giving DOJ links . . . originally you gave FBI link . ..

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

154. I gave both the DOJ and FBI links because the 1997 and 1999 data is not in the FBIs 2007 report.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5497737&mesg_id=5504326

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

136. My statement is still correct fewer gun homicides in 2007 than 1999 and 1997.

[defendandprotect]

139. Go back to your original FBI statistics and show us where it says that ...???

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

142. Here you go.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_07.html


Weapons 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007
Total 14,465 14,210 14,965 15,087 14,831
Total firearms: 9,659 9,385 10,158 10,225 10,086


So that would be 10,086 gun homicides in 2007 as compared to 10,128 in 1999 and 12,346 in 1997. Was there something else you needed?

David

[defendandprotect]

148. You're not using the same FBI statistics you originally supplied . .

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

153. Yes I am, I provided the main FBI CIUS page in the first link it has no statistics on it.

This chart above is a table within the FBI CIUS report. If you click on CIUS Home in the upper left hand corner you will be back at the link provided in post #117.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

129. You'll notice your numbers are over the DOJ numbers by about 5,000 per year.

Murders, robberies, and aggravated assaults in which firearms were used, numbers of offenses and rates per 100,000 population, 1973 to 2006


1999 338,535 124.1 10,128
2000 341,831 121.5 10,179
2001 354,754 124.3 11,106
2002 357,822 124.3 10,808
2003 347,705 119.6 11,041
2004 338,587 115.3 10,650
2005 368,178 124.2 11,351
2006 388,897 129.9 11,566

* Crimes included are murder, robbery, and aggravated assault.


Here is the link again.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/guncrimetab.htm

[defendandprotect]

140. My numbers . . .??? These are the statistics you supplied . . .FBI reports --- !!!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

145. Which FBI reports specifically?

[defendandprotect]

150. The links YOU supplied in your post #117 . . here . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5497737&mesg_id=5504326

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

151. There are no reports on that page, it is the CIUS home page.

[defendandprotect]

160. Here's your post with the links . . . amazing that you can't see them??????

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5497737&mesg_id=5504326

Oh, yeah -- :evilgrin:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

109. Not even close to true...and weapons are not always firearms and almost never so called assault

weapons

[defendandprotect]

112. You mean we can have wars and Drug Wars with bows and arrows?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

114. That was true historically...and may be again if the anti gun bigots are not stopped hard

[defendandprotect]

121. Right . . . the Drug War will commence with bows and arrows . . .!!!

:crazy:

[depakid]

92. Ten Years After Columbine and mass shootings are now commonplace

as guns continue to proliferate into all aspects of society.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

97. and yet their were fewer gun homicides in 2007 than in 1999.

[The Bakery Wagon]

106. All these posts and not a mention of the drugs that the Columbine shooters, and most others,...

...have been either withdrawing from, or under the influence of...
And they're advertised on TV!

http://ssristories.com/index.php

School Shooting Luvox/Zoloft Antidepressants 1999-04-20 Colorado
School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 1998-05-21 Oregon

Many more documented at link above


If all these shooters had been found with an 8ball of cocaine, we'd have door to door searches.

But Big Pharma gets to sell far more dangerous drugs 24/7

I'd like to see a Billy Mays commercial for Luvox, that'd be fun

[spoony]

119. Boy this thread is bringing out all kinds of kooks

[defendandprotect]

141. Great point . . . PLUS evidently "bomb making" had been reported ...

police were aware of it -- adults in their lives knew -- and -- it's been a long

time since I've been current with that story -- I seem to recall at lease one of

those adults reporting it to police!

PLUS much of their writings and other students' concerns were ignored.

Why?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

110. The title and the rest of the article are basically a croc

No gun laws have been lifted in terms of possession and purchase. If anything the ATF and idiots like Rendell and Bloomie are getting so persnickety people are getting fined for using abbreviations on forms etc. The only real changes have been the growth of Must Issue laws, where civilians have to pass a very stringent background check and testing before being getting a CCW. Unfortunately in states like CA and others CCWs are more a political patronage issue. Know the sheriff or contribute to his campaign and you can get one.

[Norrin Radd]

116. "Guns are for amateurs." - Brock Sampson

[spin]

158. You mean this Brock Sampson...

Hate to point out that he is a cartoon character. I wouldn't take any of his quotes real seriously.