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Is Obama Breaking The Law?

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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:23 PM
Original message
Is Obama Breaking The Law?
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/19/obama-violated-int-law/

UN Rapporteur On Torture: Obama’s Pledge Not To Pursue Torture Prosecutions Of CIA Agents Is Not Legal
When President Obama released the four of the Office of Legal Counsel’s (OLC) Bush-era torture memos last week, he issued a statement promising not to pursue torture prosecutions against CIA agents who relied on the memos to justify their use of torture tactics on terrorist suspects in U.S. custody. (Notably, Obama left open the possibility of prosecuting the torture architects.) “t is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution,” Obama said.

But in an interview with the Austrian newspaper Der Standard, the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, Professor Manfred Nowak, explained that Obama’s grant of immunity is likely a violation of international law. As a party to the UN Convention Against Torture, the U.S. is obligated to investigate and prosecute U.S. citizens that are believed to have engaged in torture:

STANDARD: CIA torturers are according to U.S. President Obama not to be prosecuted. Is that decision supportable?

NOWAK: Absolutely not. The United States has, like all other Contracting Parties to the UN Convention Against Torture, committed itself to investigate instances of torture and to prosecute all cases in which credible evidence of torture is found.

Indeed, Article 2 of the convention on torture explains that “no exceptional circumstances whatsoever” can be used to legally justify torture. Further, the convention states that an “order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.”

Nowak explained that by invoking the OLC’s memos as justification for the actions of CIA agents against terrorist suspects in U.S. custody, Obama is acting contrary to U.S. obligations under the treaty:

STANDARD: In other words, by making this announcement, Obama has violated international law?

NOWAK: Correct. It is a violation of binding international treaty law in this case, because this is an international law convention — and it provides unequivocally that states are not merely obligated to make torture a crime, but also to prosecute any incidents of which credible evidence can be found.

In announcing his decision to release the OLC memos, Obama also suggested that he is not inclined to conduct a full investigation into the government’s use of torture. Nowak, however, said the he believes that such an investigation ought to be Obama’s highest priority. “Most importantly, there should be a comprehensive investigation undertaken by an independent body. Whether by a special investigatory commission created by Congress or by a special investigator — there are different approaches,” Nowak expalined.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Let me get these in early and save time:
You are anti-Obama, are in a rage, are anti-American, are not paying attention, want instant gratification, obviously don't understand.

There. :)
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. You left out "Would you rather have had McCain".
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Sorry!
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. Don't worry some already have their Obama 2012 signs up here
As if in actual proof all that ever matters is electing the D. As if there is nothing he could EVER do that would make them not vote for him. I understand Nazi Germany to a T now though-from both sides. It's not fun, but it sure has made me less smug.
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. ...
:cry:
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Pompous...you forgot pompous...n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Pompus, naive, self righteous poopy head.
lol
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ProgressIn2008 Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. May I add, "But Obama has a super secret plan, he just can't *seem* to care about rule of law!"
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. More seriously, we now have ICRC, the UN and ACLU
all on the record. Spain says it will back off IF Obama prosecutes but not unless. Wonder who else will speak up.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. In regards to the UN Convention Against Torture, I'm not sure
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 03:30 PM by mmonk
a US court would determine it on that basis. Most likely, US legal precedents is where one should look.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. UN Convention has force of law here.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Unfortunately, we have judges that don't believe in it (right wing judges).
Therefore, I still think a good lawyer could look at obstruction or something similar.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. I think there are two separate questions here.
First, can Obama just ignore the law like Bush did, and get away with it?

Only after you answer that first one do you get to the question of the courts and what they will say about the legality/illegality of torture.
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. We signed a legal contract
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Last night, I watched "Standard Operating Procedure"
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 03:57 PM by EFerrari
which is a documentary that consists of interviews from the actors involved in Abu Ghraib. It was really hard to watch these interviews interspliced with those horrible images.

This one kid that got jail time mostly for just being there said rougly, "We didn't torture any one. We only softened them up. There was torture in the interrogations, but we didn't torture anyone". And it really hit home that what we saw in those images was just the lower level abuse. :(
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SLSmith Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. WOW this is scary when Austria Der Standard prints YES PROSECUTE article!
Having lived in Austria for 3.5 years in the 90's I can tell you there are still those people who think Nazi/Hitler crimes were non existent! So to have the Der Standard (which is a little to the right) putting up an article about the Bush war crimes is interesting.

Today Gibbs was holding the line on "LOOKING FORWARD" on prosecution & on State Secrets protection. I uploaded vids of this if anyone is interested.

Obama Invoked State Secrets 3 Times Reason: "Protect USA & Our Values" (Bush Rhetoric Continues!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ0U-VrV4eA

Bush Torture Prosecution Obama Still 'LOOKING FORWARD"!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPMchUAiBe4
ttfn
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. We dare to berate other nations for human rights violations while we protect torturers.
Hypocrisy writ large.

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dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
13. YES
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MarjorieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
14. Some countries with previous illegiality, aired human rights abuse, like being able to dump on us.
I always look twice at professed purity. Even Jonathan Turley.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. The ICRC report has legal standing. And I don't think
they want to "dump" on us. Here's a link to an article about the report they released earlier this month. It's not good. (Sorry, it's UPI but that's what I had time to find.)

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/04/06/Red-Cross-report-details-torture/UPI-46031239072846/
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Caliman73 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. It isn't about what other people and countries say about us.
It is about our commitment to the rule of law. If the techniques used were torture and therefore illegal, then saying we won't do it anymore is not enough. Ignorance of the law is not enough to excuse what people do. The people who broke our stated laws need to be investigated and prosecuted if evidence is found that they are culpable. You can also add the US to the list of countries with less than stellar human rights records that like to dump on others. Perhaps you have forgotten the treatment of Native Americans, of Black Americans, Japanese Americans, Mexican Americans, Chinese immigrants. Perhaps our participation in "mischief" in Latin America over the years. If we say we are a nation of laws, then we need to follow the law. If we judge other countries on their human rights records then we have to understand our own so that we avoid the hypocrisy.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. It was sort of saddening to listen to Obama try to say something
about human rights in Cuba over the weekend while in the middle of this. He was pretty restrained, come to think of it.

Maybe the world has always been like this and I just didn't know.
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Caliman73 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Unfortunately, it has.
I remember being so "rah rah America" until I started reading information about our history. It was my Junior year in high school and I was taking at US History. My teacher wanted to give us differing perspectives on history so she didn't do too much out of the textbook. By the time I went to university I was totally bummed. America has such potential because I still believe that the people are more good than bad. People in power, not so much...:-(
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
18. /
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
25. I think so
Unless I'm missing something fairly important in the UNCT, the Obama administration is legally obliged to investigate credible accusations of torture. So, does the reported abuse rise to the standard for "torture"? It fairly clearly does, especially since the USA actively prosecuted Nazis for torture for using those exact same techniques. Are the reports credible? The reports aren't even denied. So unless I'm missing something, the Obama administration is legally obliged to at least investigate.

I suppose it's possible that indictments of the higher officials who gave the orders are being quietly prepared as I type this (I doubt it but it's possible) but as I understand the law, that doesn't excuse the duty to prosecute the actual torturers themselves.
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