Do you think if stories of the torture of children or that many people held weren't

[mmonk]

proven terrorists got out into the mainstream, outrage would finally take place? The mainstream press is still pretending this is "only" waterboarding the worst of the worst terrorists.

[EFerrari]

1. That's a good point. If we heard those children screaming

maybe we wouldn't be so quick to defend torturers.

[imdjh]

2. I'm clueless, which children?

[EFerrari]

6. Sy Hersh says there is video of boys being sodomized.

Women imprisoned at Abu Ghraib were sending messages to their families to come and kill them because they had been raped. And so on.

[mmonk]

7. Google tortured children US

[GCP]

10. There were stories of children being tortured in front of their parents

In Abu Graib, to make the parents talk. Boys being sodomized. Seymour Hersh had the story.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6492.htm

[rcrush]

11. just a little bit of what they did

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22440.htm


It’s worth noting, however, that the Red Cross was denied access to individuals held at CIA black sites. Khan’s son, Majid, was among those President Bush moved from the CIA’s secret prison network to Guantanamo Bay.

The techniques Khan says were employed against his son also match those approved in the Bybee memo.

“What I can tell you is that Majid was kidnapped from my son Mohammed’s house in Karachi, along with Mohammed, his wife, and my infant granddaughter,” Khan said in his military tribunal statement. “They were captured by Pakistani police and soldiers and taken to a detention center fifteen minutes from Mohammed’s house. The center had walls that seemed to be eighty feet high. My sons were hooded, handcuffed, and interrogated. After eight days of interrogation by US and Pakistani agents, including FBI agents, Mohammed was allowed to see Majid.

“Majhid looked terrible and very, very tired,” Khan continued. “According to Mohammed, Majid said that the Americans tortured him for eight hours at a time, tying him tightly in stressful positions in a small chair until his hands, feet and mind went numb. They re-tied him in the chair every hour, tightening the bonds on his hands and feet each time so that it was more painful. He was often hooded and had difficulty breathing. They also beat him repeatedly, slapping him in the face, and deprived him of sleep. When he was not being interrogated, the Americans put Majid in a small cell that was totally dark and too small for him to lie down in or sit in with his legs stretched out. He had to crouch. The room was also infested with mosquitoes. The torture only stopped when Majid agreed to sign a statement that he was not even allowed to read.”

“The Americans also once stripped and beat two Arab boys, ages fourteen and sixteen, who were turned over by the Pakistani guards at the detention center,” he said. “These guards told my son that they were very upset at this and said the boys were thrown like garbage onto a plane to Guantanamo. Women prisoners were also held there, apart from their husbands, and some were pregnant and forced to give birth in their cells. According to Mohammed, one woman also died in her cell because the guards could not get her to a hospital quickly enough. This was most upsetting to the Pakistani guards.”

[defendandprotect]

36. Sadism . . . and IMO the only way they can get most soldiers to do this is ...

to basically drive them insane with fear with hatred.

And they do seem to accomplish that!

[walldude]

12. It's not just Sy Hearsh, read the torture memo's

it's all in there. Kalid Sheik Mohammed's children.

[EFerrari]

14. Thanks. Yes, you're right. n/t

[mmonk]

13. Yeah. I've heard the screaming of the kids at Abu Ghraib

was chilling. I think to have no basic human empathy in that regard makes one's soul a dark hole.

[Duer 157099]

3. Sadly, I don't think it would matter

The people who have, deep in their souls, accepted torture as an American value, would care little about to whom it was applied. After all, those weren't just *any* kids - they were the children of "the worst of the worst" - so guilt by association (in their minds). No doubt.

[tekisui]

4. Hard to say. I wouldn't be surprised if even DUers had some,

'I'd still be torturing those future terrorists, if I had my way!' and 'They knew where their daddies were, and their daddies were the most wanted men on the planet.'

Torture apologist sicken me, and I doubt they would blink an eye, even if children were involved. It is just one more step in the direction they are proclaiming comfort with.

[lunatica]

25. It says a lot about those people that they condone and even want torture

It's depraved, and it makes me wonder about other things about them. If committing violent acts against other people is something they approve then they are those among us who are abusers and rapists. I can't imagine one happens without the other being true.

And some of them are right here.

[endarkenment]

5. The corporate media would find some new diversion or preposterous spin.

Do you actually think they would just give up on it all? There is no way. Not until the walls come tumbling down. They are in way too far to fold now.

[valerief]

8. The Right Wingers would be angry about it, saying they don't

want their children exposed to such adult news. There's always a spin.

[walldude]

9. I know, I keep posting about how successful Bush was at

"mainstreaming" torture. We actually have debates about torture. LIke it's something that needs to be discussed. Makes me want to :puke:

[merh]

33. if you recall, the military became so concerned about the acceptance

of torture, as in the 24hr fiction, that they had Kiefer Sutherland come talk to the cadets at West Point. He gave an anti-torture lecture and the General went to the writers and producers of 24 asking them to tone it down.


http://www.hollywood.com/news/US_Army_Invites_Sutherland_to_Give_Anti_Torture_Speech/3662740

edit: The Military told their soldiers to ignore those memos and to abide by the UCMJ.

[defendandprotect]

37. Constitution bans cruel and unusual punishment . . . !!!

[RandomThoughts]

15. Reading this thread

I am also watching the speech in the movie storm of the century. Where Mike Anderson stood up against the evil.

I would stand with the constable Mike in that conversation, and never deal with evil.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2PiGhYSR4E&feature=related

"We do not give our kids away to thugs, do you understand that, we don't give away our children, we do what it says above the door in this place, we trust in God, and each other."

[Solly Mack]

16. I'm doubtful

It's already known that many of the people held are only there because someone turned them in to collect a ransom. And that kind of arrangement is always open to abuse. Innocent people get detained because someone has a grudge against them.


Congress saw the full Abu Ghraib pictures and said themselves that there was rape and murder. Same people outraged then are outraged now...and few others.

[mmonk]

17. I know how you feel but I don't think the average person

who goes to work and comes home to the evening TV news has a clue. As far as the ruling class goes, I would expect only a few with basic adequate outrage and their agendas trump most things to them.

[Solly Mack]

19. LOL See now, I see myself as the average person

but I see what you're saying...widespread, accurate reporting without all the word games, that lays the matter out, might just cause outrage.

[mmonk]

24. Ha! Me too, but I've seen what average Americans think.

I think we are different in that we have enough basic curiosity to ask questions and fact check.

[KoKo]

18. I don't think the MS Press gives a damn..but the Bloggers have been all over it...

and given the economic times it's the Bloggers WHO RULE!

We seem to be driving the News lately.

Ever notice we see things here on DU/KOS/FIRDOGLAKE/SALON/BUZZFLASH..a couple of days before the MSM take up on it. Although...it's the old "PRINT MEDIA" which gives us many of our stories which we build on and support with research already done on the blogs.

It's amazing this transformation we are watching in progress..isn't it.

I find watching the Cables: CNN, MSNBC are so far behind..I'm glad I don't waste my time with them. Are they still clearing their news throughs some leftover Politboro from the Bush Regime? Or are they clearing the news through their RW THINK TANKS that drove their profits from late 90's through 2008?

I don't know ...but watching TEE VEE is very amusing these days. They are so OUT OF IT! :D

[mmonk]

20. I remember my mother calling TV the evil eye.

And she passed away before it got this bad.

[KoKo]

27. You know...that's a good name for them..."The Evil Eye"...she had good insight...

and I don't mean that as a pun...

[NNN0LHI]

21. If it goes mainstream even some Rethugs will be calling for an investigation

Not that they don't all know about it already. They do. They just don't want a lot of Americans to find out because then they are in trouble.

Don

[KoKo]

28. Don...have you ever seen Repugs call for an Investigation unless it helped THEM?

I'm still waiting for Obama's Bi-Partisansip to work. But, on the other hand, given our Congress we've kind of seen it "behind the scenes" working all these years. I should have just shut up and not replied.

Question Is: When will Repugs ever come out OPENLY and support any Dem Legislation by Dems who aren't already "in bed with them." Maybe that's what I was thinking...

[dustbunnie]

22. I don't think so.

The mostly famous child prisoner of Gitmo was a Canadian, born into a family led by a zealot, so most of the siblings were killed once the dad took them all over to Afghanistan. Nobody wanted the child back, he's a man now, nobody cared then, last year, the year before, nothing was done. There was plenty of info and news coverage, in Canada at least.

From what I understand, the way war was waged in Algeria became the bible for how people would be treated in this occupation. People should look at some of the pics from that time, and understand how easy it is to take baby steps toward the unthinkable.

[mmonk]

23. Besides the one in question, there were those

just picked up in the bounty sweeps and also the children at Abu Ghraib were children of sweeps as well. I need to read up on the war in Algeria. Anyway, I would like to think if there were stories in the US press, particularly broadcast TV, people would at least evaluate.

[dustbunnie]

31. You're right. I wish I still had the images and articles I found from the Algerian war.

But everyone gets on with their life, so I've erased everything from my desktop.

There is one in particular, of the woman raped and completely bound up with rope, that is heartbreaking and will never be erased from my mind. Then there is the opinion of the one-eyed general who understood that waterboarding is the cheapest, most effective form of torture.

Last year I could have googled him easily, just by writing French General + Algeria + torture. This year, there was so much I had to specify One-eyed General. (Could just be my bad googling.) One of the great articles I finally let go was all about how the US taught soldiers, based on the footage retrieved from that war/whatever you want to call it.

Forgot to add the link for the one-eyed general: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2977681.stm

[Ilsa]

26. It could help, I think. I don't think very many people know about

children being tortured in front of their parents.

I want those torturers arrested, charged, and convicted. I don't want them in my neighborhood (or any neighborhood). The world would be a safer place if they were in jail.

[Codeine]

29. Nope. Not one damn bit.

Nobody gives one single solitary fuck about any god-damned thing anymore. It's sad and terrifying all at once.

[Bluerthanblue]

30. sadly no- not from what I've seen of this society- there

is a big disconnect for some when it comes to actions taken by bush, and for things associated (even incorrectly) with 9/11 and 'patriotism'.

Denial is not easy to break through.

in my opinion-

[defendandprotect]

32. Yes . . . what did we have . . . 140,000 prisoners . .. how many tried and found guilty?

Obviously, they were torturing them to get them to confess to 9/11 --

probably for the practice and to desensitize the military/health professionals --

but also to terrorize Americans .... because these people could return to power

again at some point! Especially if we do nothing about them!

Evidently, some of the pictures/film of torture were done to be shown to other

inmates to threaten/intimidate/frighten them.

At least I've heard those were the plans. It seems our "leaders" preferred actual

torture of most of them!

[mmonk]

34. yes, it was about inducing fear.

[slipslidingaway]

35. Children of Abu Ghraib - Iraq

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tIstnNrCAQ


Samuel Provance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Provance

"Samuel Provance was a U.S. Army military intelligence sergeant who is most notable for going public, against the direct orders from his commanders, with what he knew about what happened at the Abu Ghraib Prison, where he worked from the fall of 2003 to the spring of 2004..."