For me, it may come to this - If prosecutions on torture do not happen

[NRaleighLiberal]

and this all gets swept under the rug, Obama will not have my vote next time around. (I worked for him in the campaign and am quite far left, by the way - and up to this, thought he was going a fine job). Two reasons - either he doesn't understand the depth of the damage to our reputation, how this issue is a root cause of all that was wrong for the past 8 years - inside the beltway tonedeafness. Or, even worse, he does, but is powerless to do anything about it due to other moves going on behind the scenes...which means it really doesn't matter who is president anyway. And that is a horrifying possibility.

So, we are watching this one play out carefully.

[ThomWV]

1. Agreed.

[Soylent Brice]

2. question.

i agree with you that no matter what prosecutions must take place. this is something i won't personally budge on with how i feel. but what is "the" plan if they don't prosecute? what actions do you plan on taking at that point?

you say you wouldn't vote to re-elect Obama. and with this Harman thing it's starting to look like everyone is complicit in something. what's next if it doesn't happen?

[NRaleighLiberal]

6. I don't know what is next. I will reserve the right to decide later on - but just said

to my wife "where else would we like to live in this world"? The other alternative (more likely, for us), is to stand and fight for the country....protest, march, get involved.

We shall see!

[Soylent Brice]

12. okay.

[Blecht]

3. "... which means it really doesn't matter who is president anyway."

Bullshit.

No other word for this part of your post.

Obama quickly reversed course on stem cells, which will help millions of people who would not be helped otherwise. Tell them and their families it "doesn't matter who is president anyway."

[NRaleighLiberal]

4. What I mean is that he is able to do highly relevant but much "smaller" (in terms of $$ and power)

things, but can't go where real military industrial power is threatened. And though I would much prefer an effective president who has progressive/liberal values for those things, if his hands are tied in more covert areas, we are all in deep, deep shit - and things may look far different in four years, anyway.

But I do understand why/how you reacted as you did, and agree in terms of the great good he is doing in most areas.

[Blecht]

11. And I feel your frustration, too

And I am deeply disappointed about Obama's handling of torture and the bankers -- it confirms all my cynical beliefs about America, about how there is only a business party with two factions here.

However, the differences between the two factions are big enough to keep me voting. Just ask yourself if you would really not vote for Obama if it came down to a choice between him and Newt/Palin/Jindal.

[CrispyQ]

14. Well said!

"...it confirms all my cynical beliefs about America, about how there is only a business party with two factions here."

[Lint Head]

5. I am with you! If a lawyer can write a memo and say torture is not a crime

then I am going to have my lawyer write a memo saying robbing banks is OK. Apparently that makes it legal. I guess along with everything else we don't need judges and juries any more. Wow. No more crime! All we have to do is to get lawyers to write memos saying nothing is illegal any more. That's the answer to our crime problems.
:dem::sarcasm:

[Supersedeas]

57. just don't rob more than 183 banks within a one month period--could get tricky...legally

or if were in charge of a political party that walked LOCKSTEP with your every whim (Bush and the Reskanks), then you'd only have to encourage them to pass a law to give you immunity (MCA of 2006) for all of it.

[Solomon]

7. So Obama gets the blame.

Right on! Way to go!

[NRaleighLiberal]

9. Did you read what I wrote before you typed?

[dysfunctional press]

8. for me, it's single-payer healthcare- anything less and he's lost my vote for next time.

[Connie_Corleone]

16. Even though he never campaigned on the promise of single-payer healthcare?

Why did you vote for him the first time since I assume you knew he wasn't for single-payer healthcare during the election?

[DevonRex]

18. Unbelievable, isn't it? Didn't campaign for it and can't wave a magic wand

forcing Congress to pass it.

[dysfunctional press]

21. yep.

[DevonRex]

17. Good lord. Do you think Congress might have something to do with that?

Or will that be all Obama's fault, too, when Congress doesn't pass single payer?

[dysfunctional press]

22. leadership starts at the top.

[dionysus]

25. reading your posts makes me think you never voted for him in the first place...

[NRaleighLiberal]

27. I worked many hours for him. Another shallow thinker. very disappointing.

[dionysus]

32. i wasn't responding to you, but you can shove the holier-than-thou shit.

:shrug:

[dysfunctional press]

36. yep.

judgmental ass all the way.

[dionysus]

42. so you start with the ad homs when people get in the way of your whimpering?

because when you start with "well here's where he loses MY vote for good", you are telegraphing your position.


:rofl:

[dysfunctional press]

50. whimpering?

such as?

[dionysus]

52. yes, the people threatening to bolt after less than 100 days are whimpering fools.

you know, tossing out self-righteous scenarios to not vote, vote green or republican...
good day :hi:

[dysfunctional press]

54. in your under-educated opinion perhaps...

but that's not really much to go by.

[dionysus]

55. you resort to name calling, why? did i spoil your faux righteous outrage?

did i look the wrong way at your high horse?

if this means we're not friends anymore, i don't think i could bear it.

but it's a free country, you can shout to the rooftops all the reasons while you will vote third party, like anyone gives a shit...

:rofl:

[dysfunctional press]

56. name-calling? like "whimpering fools" perhaps? what a fucking hypocrite.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[dionysus]

58. only if you're a whimpering, 3rd party voting fool.... are you? whimpering is a verb, and if you

consider "fool" a strong insult, well good for you.

:rofl: indeed

[dysfunctional press]

59. the point is- you're the only one who actually "called names" up to that point...

and yet you decide to be a whiny little bitch about it...:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[dionysus]

60. "whiny little bitch"? you sound cross...

[dysfunctional press]

63. nope- just amused by the silly monkey in the zoo...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[dionysus]

62. au contraire: dysfunctional press: "judgmental ass all the way." post 36

have a nice afternoon.

[dysfunctional press]

64. i'm having a great day...

watching the silly stupid monkey performing all his best tricks...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[dionysus]

65. "silly stupid monkey "? why i must have touched a nerve. have fun with all that 3rd party jazz.

you can tell ralph or dennis i said hi.
:hi:

[dysfunctional press]

67. ralph?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
(btw- i'm not laughing with you, i'm laughing AT you)

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[dionysus]

68. let's leave it at this: send me a PM when you start advocating a third party here.

i don't want to miss it!

or maybe i had it wrong, if not ralph, you'll be voting GOP? you clever little rascal you.

[dysfunctional press]

69. from remedial vocabulary on to remedial civics- you're a regular whiz kid...

nobody is REQUIRED to cast a vote in every contest in an election. just because someone might choose not to vote for any particular candidate- it doesn't mean that they HAVE to vote for someone else.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abstain


Main Entry:
ab·stain Listen to the pronunciation of abstain
Pronunciation:
\əb-ˈstān, ab-\
Function:
intransitive verb
Etymology:
Middle English absteinen, from Anglo-French asteign-, absteign-, stem of astenir, abstenir, from Latin abstinēre, from abs-, ab- + tenēre to hold — more at thin
Date:
14th century

: to refrain deliberately and often with an effort of self-denial from an action or practice <abstain from drinking>
— ab·stain·er noun

[dionysus]

70. not voting for prez at all, even cooler! you're my new righteous hero! armed with a dictionary even.

:rofl:

[dysfunctional press]

71. knowing the problems that you've displayed with vocabulary- it was the least i could do.

btw- do you really think that it's preferable for someone to vote for a candidate that they don't support than to abstain from that race?
(but then again- i guess that it's pretty meaningless to ask something like that of a demonstrated hypocrite :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:)

[dionysus]

73. when you start your "let's not vote for president" campaign on DU, please let me know.

it ought to be a gas...
:hi:

[dysfunctional press]

89. everyone's entitled to make their own decisions...

i know how you academically-challenged folks prefer to follow the pack- but many of the rest of us are capable of independent thought. although i realize that it may be yet another difficult concept for you to grasp. :shrug:

[Lilith Velkor]

75. OH SNAP

Someone got told. :rofl:

[dionysus]

77. he forgot he posted post 36 i guess

:shrug:
i mean if you really want to nitpick...

are you ready to hop on his "let's not vote for president" bandwagon?

snap?

[Lilith Velkor]

83. Are you telling me to not vote Democratic?

If so, I would be interested in knowing why.

[dionysus]

84. no, the guy i was arguing with is threatening to not vote for president next time because he's angry

i was asking if you agreed with that, is all...

[dysfunctional press]

90. who said "let's" ??? i simply said that I won't be voting for him if we don't get single-payer...

oops- i forgot about how difficult some words and their meanings are for you to grasp.

keep trying- you'll get there some day. :hi:

[dysfunctional press]

33. that's your prerogative.

:eyes:

reading your posts make me think that you're a judgemental ass.

[dionysus]

35. it's your prerogative to simper and whine about your unrealistic expectations too

:shrug:

[dysfunctional press]

38. "simper and whine"????

:shrug:

"simper"????

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/simper
sim·per (smpr)
v. sim·pered, sim·per·ing, sim·pers
v.intr.
To smile in a silly, self-conscious, often coy manner.
v.tr.
To utter or express with a silly, self-conscious, often coy smile: simpered a lame excuse.
n.
A silly, self-conscious, often coy smile.

:shrug:

and maybe you could point out the "whine" ? (especially considering your screen name.)

[dionysus]

41. yes, thank you, i meant whimpering. thank you for making me remember the correct word

:hi:

[dysfunctional press]

48. and now that you've had your remedial vocabulary lesson...

maybe you could even point out and diagram the sentence that your statement applies to...?

[dionysus]

51. now you question my intelligence because i questioned your whimpering? strange that

[dysfunctional press]

53. i question your intelligence because of your poor vocabulary skills.

not so strange, that.

[DevonRex]

74. Yep, since he never promised single payer to begin with. I think the poster is

bitter that Kuch or Nader didn't win.

[dionysus]

80. oh they're riled up today for sure!

:hi:

I'M ANGRY DAMMIT!!!!

:rofl:

[dysfunctional press]

92. i never said that he did.

but it's fairly obvious to anyone who's done the research(as well as every other industrialized nation on earth) that it is the only feasible option for properly covering our entire population.

the op has decided that torture prosecutions are their single-issue when it comes to voting- mine has become single-payer healthcare...and whether or not he made specific campaign promises on the subject has no bearing on the issue or my stance on it.and- i'd be willing to bet that single-payer has a better chance of happening under obama than the idea that ANY bush administration officials will face justice over torture, or anything else.

[KharmaTrain]

10. Careful What You Wish For...

I'm strongly in favor of a full investigation of the crimes of the past 8 years...no stone unturned, no booooshie "official" is off limits, including democrats who knew of these crimes and went along for what they felt was the "politically expdient" thing (Jane Harmon).

Will my vote in 2012 hinge on this? Too soon to tell...and one has to be careful as to what the alternative will be...a "president" Palin or Mittens? Ya think that would be better?

It's not just holding President Obama's feet to the fire on this, but to all Democratic congresscritters, as it's Congress' job to do the real investigations here and, even if President Obama wants to "move forward", Congress not only has the power but the obligation to do the heavy lifting.

I'm already seeing this issue become a factor in the upcoming battle for President Obama's former Senate seat. Forget Roland Burris. Last night I heard Jan Schakowsky, who is definitely running for the seat and demaning investigation. I'll be curious to see if other Democrats speak up, and in some cases, this matter will open the door to some primary challenges in 2010. It's a long way to 2012 and to completely write off President Obama at this point is playing right into what the corporate media their right wing puppetmaster currently dream about.

[babylonsister]

13. And not even 100 days in, our fearless Dems are thinking of

bailing. I agree, it's way too early to make such bold proclamations.

[NeedleCast]

15. Single Issue Voting is a Great Idea

Wait...

[NRaleighLiberal]

30. This is not single issue voting. This is about what really goes on behind the scenes -

and who is really in charge.

[NeedleCast]

37. The Way You Phrase It Above Seems Pretty Single Issue

You've stated that you will not vote for Obama if he does not prosecture re: torture. Elsehwere in the thread in the thread someone mentioned (off topic) that they wont vote for Obama if he doesn't push single payer health care. Those are both single issue stances that demand purity or nothing.

[NRaleighLiberal]

39. Do you understand the consequences of not following through on torture?

It isn't an issue - it is our future, in my view.

[NeedleCast]

72. Yeah, I think it is an issue

I'm torn on the issue myself. If crimes are committed they should be punished. At the same time, there will be no better rallying call for the Republicants at a time that their party is in total disarray than to start putting members of "their side" on trial.

[Norquist Nemesis]

19. Just ask'n...are we taking everything into account with this?

I'll try to be concise on this, but politics is a really dirty game and we all know the Cons are from the sewer when it comes to dirtiness. As yet, Obama STILL is not fully staffed up in his administration. Partly due to the very nature of the numbers of positions, but also due to the Cons playing dirty tricks like putting key people on hold while placing ultimatums on the OA.

One of these demands is that they are refusing to allow the seating of a key DOJ position unless Obama agrees not to prosecute. Across the board, Cons are doing anything and everything to throw monkey wrenches and try to take advantage in any way possible.

And yea, I realize Immanuel said what he did about prosecutions...for politics, it may have been a signal to the Cons. But it may play out very differently at DOJ, where it is supposed to be independent as we all know.

I guess my point is that we may be only considering what is on the surface without looking at the whole picture.

[NRaleighLiberal]

29. It is underneath, and the whole picture, that I fear is really rotten.

[KittyWampus]

20. you are entitled to your little temper tantrum. But why DU allows it to remain posted is a mystery.

Guess what, MY issue is the Financial Crisis.

If I don't get my pony... er... I mean, if Obama's Economic Team doesn't go in and do XYZ I won't vote for him.

I'm sure there are multiple gay DU'ers who feel the same way about Marriage.

[NRaleighLiberal]

24. this is not a little issue. This is the fabric of our Democracy. Think a bit deeper.

[Freddie Stubbs]

23. It was this type of thinking by Nader voters that got us Bush in the first place

[NRaleighLiberal]

26. Wrong. You are comparing apples and oranges.

[frylock]

87. bull fucking shit

[pnutbutr]

28. in for you voting a

Palin/Jindal ticket :rofl:

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dionysus]

44. awww, now you have to start calling people assholes because some aren't impressed with your

threatening to not vote dem in 2012?

poor 'lil you.

[pnutbutr]

45. It was supposed to be funny

geezus you guys are uptight here in GD all the freekin time.

[dionysus]

47. you call out their whining and it really pisses them off.

where's your righteous OUTRAGE?!?!?!?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. We should make politicians work for our vote. K&R

[NRaleighLiberal]

40. Thank you. I am appalled at some of the responses here - sound like Bush apologists, or worse -

people with their heads up their ass.

[dionysus]

43. no, some people are sick of the ceaseless, constant, never-ending whining. about *everything*

especially when it's done with a holier-than-thou smugness.

and often by people who never liked the administration nor have ever given it a chance.

so there.

:shrug:

[NRaleighLiberal]

88. Whining is not my history. This is unique in my reaction to it. sorry if I've annoyed you.

[Individualist]

49. As am I.

The way some people are dismissing accountability for torture is shameful.

[Orsino]

46. As opposed to whom, though?

I understand boycotting, but it carries with it a tiny bit of responsibility for any loss to a worse candidate.

It's partly because of Obama that we have learned so much of the extent of the crimes. I'm not going to risk setting the clock back to 2001 over it.

[mmonk]

61. I understand.

Of course, there always will exist (if we do nothing but "move on") it seems now, that one has to make a choice between those that break our Constitutional restraints, laws and Bill of Rights and those that will allow them to be broken. Not a good choice, but be careful in the end result.

[MasonJar]

66. Please check out the Move-on petition on this DU page. Sign it. They are gathering

signatures to send to AG Holder insisting on a Special Prosecutor for the torture investigation. Move-on is quite powerful. Please support this important effort by them and pass it on to like-minded friends.

[WeDidIt]

76. If the criminals get away with it because nobody dares prosecute

then what's the point in participating in the process any longer?

[Fendius]

78. Its hard to say, He is leaving room though..

Realize he may be doing exactly what he says also, leaving room but hopes this doesn't become over politicized. Imagine if this does go to the courts, The "rights" ability to manipulate the justice system is so shady that it could turn into an absolute mess with the "right" distracting or finding loopholes throughout....

[TBF]

79. For me it's not a litmus test - I look at everything.

I also worked on the campaign here in Texas (Brazoria Cty, Precinct 58). Door to door, phone calls, caucus, the works. More than anything I did it to keep Palin away from the White House, and I also love a minority president in the White House. But I am keeping track as we go along. What is Obama doing for corporations vs. for the people (ordinary people - not billionaire bankers)?

So far we have on the negative:
Still, they are shooting wolves in Alaska.
Warrantless wiretapping not only gets a pass, but DOJ files a brief seeking increased powers for Obama.
Torture off the table.
Bailouts to banks on the table.
Union workers fend for themselves - particularly auto workers.
Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Pirates & 4% overall increase of military budget

These are the things that have been positive so far:
Stem Cell Research
Lily Ledbetter Act
High-speed rail (public transportation is good!)
Non-believers are actually acknowledged!

I'm sure I'm forgetting things in both categories, but those are things that come to mind immediately.

[personman]

81. I'm as cynical and left as anyone I imagine

I'm a libertarian-socialist anarchist and a bit of a Chomsky-ite. I do not believe there is "no difference" between the parties, though I do believe on many issues, both parties are well to the right of the populace.

I had no illusions that Obama would be anything other than what he presented himself as, a centrist-democrat, very much politics as usual. That said, I voted for him because the alternative was even more extreme, and though I disagree with Obama about a lot of things, (torture prosecutions, single-payer healthcare) I imagine I'll vote for him next time around for essentially the same reasons. Choosing a "lesser-evil" sucks, but it beats getting the greater-evil, IMO.

-Andy

[closeupready]

82. Me, too.

n/t

[omega minimo]

85. The second is why I would not blame the first.

[conscious evolution]

86. If no prosecutions come

I will not be voting Dem ever again.
Why vote for a party that no longer works for the peoples best interests?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. If Spain refuses to prosecute, I'm boycotting Spain.

It'll be Freedom Rice, Freedom Tiles, and the Freedom Armada from then on out.

[DutchLiberal]

93. So, summarizing: you will not vote for him next time.