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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 08:33 AM
Original message
For those who think prosecuting one's own
government is easy I have a bridge to sell you cheap. The guys in Washington doing the heavy lifting understand that what is needed BEFORE legal action is taken is sunlight. The public needs to be informed and aroused-- the rejection of "merely following orders" is a moral judgment not a legal one. Here is an excellent analysis of why an ill-thought out strategy would produce the worst of all outcomes. No one has been more outraged by the BUSH/Cheney regime than Ms de la Vega: "My sole consideration is litigation strategy: I want us to succeed. And our best hope of doing that is to unflinchingly assess - just as any lawyer would do when contemplating choices of action in a case - what we would have tomorrow if we got what we think we want today." http://www.truthout.org/042009R
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent article
People have to realize it's not the end game, but the beginning, and the case has to be built.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. Here's a statement from a former top aide of Condi Rice...
someone should listen. And thanks for that article; Ms. de la Vega is also someone worth listening to.

Keep politics out of the law when judging torture
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5498657&mesg_id=5498657
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. I agree...
The President is playing his cards perfectly. He knows he cannot do it alone. It would be easy for him to say he is going to prosecute to the full extent of the law and then take all the slings and arrows surely to come. But, he has found a better way, in my opinion. He is ahead of the torturers in this chess game.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. By announcing no prosecutions?
I'm not sure why he is running around telling folks he won't prosecute anyone, if his intent is to prosecute people.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
4. All right
Then can I humbly make a minor suggestion? I'm just a citizen, you understand. Nobody special. But I think we ought to do one little thing:

START AN INVESTIGATION.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. I agree...
That we need to start an investigation. However, I think it is important "how" we start an investigation. I do not think President Obama would block an investigation if it was started by the Congress or the Attorney-General and the Justice Dept.

I know it is difficult to understand why he doesn't get out in front of the issue and lead the charge against these criminals. But let me ask you this one question: Who would be foolish enough to get the CIA, the Republican noise machine, and the mass media lined up against them this early in a new Administration? Perhaps the idea is the same as yours but the plan on carrying it out may be slightly different than what we think it should be?

Maybe this is too convoluted. But I believe the President thinks in very complex thoughts and that he is on the right track. I would suggest we keep our eye on Attorney-General Holder for the real strategy that is ahead.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. There IS and has been an ongoing investigation by the Department of...
Justice, through the Office of Professional Responsibility, into the actions of the Office of Legal Counsel and their opinions. The investigation has been ongoing for over a year and it's report is due out in a few weeks. Once that report is filed, the DOJ can act based on the conclusions of the report.

Link to clip about the OPR investigation with Senator Whitehouse:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x300157
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. That's good
I'm anxious to hear a little more about officials poking around in the dark world of the Bush administration. Surely a lot of their shenanigans have been kept from the American public, but is pretty well limned in the rest of the global community. It's time the people of the United States recognized what's been going on in their name and with their tax dollars. If Fox News impressed itself with its little tea parties, how much more impressive will the public demonstrations be against the Bush administration and its high crimes? Or will the major media outlets suddenly decide that millions aren't nearly as important as hundreds? Again.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
5. Yes, the public needs information - so why is the administration invoking state secrets?
To inform public, release the relevant information. Highlight it. Don't find justifications for the Bushista "state secrets" invocations.

Let Yoo provide for his own defense.

If being strategic means being low-key for a time, that's fine. But the admin talks transparent crap about how it's time to move on and deal with the pressing new crises of today. Holder characterizes the push for justice and the most basic values as one for "retribution."

So don't blame the justice activists for the ongoing attempt to complete the cover-up and exculpation of the Bush regime.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. You are either mischaracterizing or misinterpreting Holder's words.
We have to have a solid enough foundation that the right CANNOT spin any investigation and prosecution as retribution. If they are able to get out in front of this, as they did with the impeachment issue, making it "the Democrats are simply retaliating, playing 'gotcha' because they are drunk with power now - at a time when the economy is collapsing, all they think about is retribution"; don't you think that would resonate with the millions who are running out of unemployment, losing their jobs and their homes?

What do you think the release of the memos was, if not informing the public and releasing relevant information? You've heard the talking heads go into a frenzy over them. Does that sound like a cover up?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. State Secrets invocations by Obama admin...
http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/04/court_rejects_states_secrets_privilege_for_nsacharity_case.php

Apr 17 2009, 6:49 pm by Marc Ambinder
Judge Skeptical Of State Secrets Privilege For NSA/Charity Case

The Obama administration suffered a bit of a legal setback this afternoon: a federal judge in California rejected the administration's assertion of the state secrets privilege in the civil suit brought by an Islamic charity that was allegedly subjected to illegal NSA surveillance. The order, in Al-Haramain v. Bush, requires the government to come up with a way to safeguard the classified information it plans to present in the NSA's defense by May 8. Judge Vaughn Walker noted that the government has elsewhere made provisions for the discussion of Top Secret/SCI information. It so happens that the plaintiffs attorneys have been cleared to that level. Walker crafted his order narrowly to prevent the government from appealing it immediately to the Ninth Circuit. On May 8, it will be interesting to see whether the administration presents a plan for safeguarding classified info -- or whether it re-asserts the state secrets privilege.

---

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/04/yesterday_we_told_you_about.php

Not Just State Secrets: Obama Continuing Bush's Stonewalling On Gitmo Cases, Lawyer Claims
By Zachary Roth - April 10, 2009, 3:43PM

Yesterday we told you about the Obama Justice Department's invocation of a sweeping state secrets privilege in a warrantless wiretapping case. But that may not be the only area in which the new administration's war on terror tactics recall the worst excesses of the Bush years.

SNIP

Cynamon detailed three specific areas in which the government is stonewalling. First, he said, it has taken an unduly long time to produce declassified evidence. Indeed, in February, Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly ordered one government lawyer removed from the case for failing to comply with repeated orders to make the evidence available. In a court document, the judge wrote that the lawyer's "compliance was not optional," and added that the court "has serious concern about counsel's ability to read and comprehend its orders."

Second, Cynamon said the government is resisting requests for discovery, slowing things down by forcing defense lawyers to go to court at each stage. "Across the board they basically say no," he said. "It's whatever bullshit excuse - 'it's too burdensome, its not relevant, its beyond the narrow...."

But the government's "most egregious" stonewalling tactic, said Cynamon, parallels the misconduct famously displayed by the prosecutors in the Ted Stevens case: It has consistently failed to produce exculpatory evidence in its possession, as it is legally required to do. "They have completely, in my view, ignored that obligation," said Cynamon. "We have come across a number of items of exculpatory evidence that the government should have given us and didn't."

For instance, said Cynamon, one his clients had military commission charges issued against him, and as a result was appointed a military defense counsel, who has access to a secure government database. The defense counsel, Cynamon explained, "fairly quickly and fairly easily found some documents on that secure database that were very helpful and exculpatory and helpful to our clients...that should have been produced to us in our case."

Cynamon said that Obama should be given credit for his pledge to close Guantanamo within a year. But he said that doesn't address the core issue. "The fundamental problem is that there has been a complete abandonment of the rule of law and a denial of the most basic due process, which is: 'If you get thrown in jail, you ought to have the right to have an independent judge look at the basis on which you're in jail to decide whether you should be there,'" he said. "And closing Guantanamo doesn't address that, if they just end up getting transferred to prisons in other places."

SNIP

---

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/us/10torture.html

Obama Backs Off a Reversal on Secrets

By JOHN SCHWARTZ
Published: February 9, 2009

SAN FRANCISCO — In a closely watched case involving rendition and torture, a lawyer for the Obama administration seemed to surprise a panel of federal appeals judges on Monday by pressing ahead with an argument for preserving state secrets originally developed by the Bush administration.

In the case, Binyam Mohamed, an Ethiopian native, and four other detainees filed suit against a subsidiary of Boeing for arranging flights for the Bush administration’s “extraordinary rendition” program, in which terrorism suspects were secretly taken to other countries, where they say they were tortured. The Bush administration argued that the case should be dismissed because even discussing it in court could threaten national security and relations with other nations.

During the campaign, Mr. Obama harshly criticized the Bush administration’s treatment of detainees, and he has broken with that administration on questions like whether to keep open the prison camp at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. But a government lawyer, Douglas N. Letter, made the same state-secrets argument on Monday, startling several judges on the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.

“Is there anything material that has happened” that might have caused the Justice Department to shift its views, asked Judge Mary M. Schroeder, an appointee of President Jimmy Carter, coyly referring to the recent election.

“No, your honor,” Mr. Letter replied.

Judge Schroeder asked, “The change in administration has no bearing?”

Once more, he said, “No, Your Honor.” The position he was taking in court on behalf of the government had been “thoroughly vetted with the appropriate officials within the new administration,” and “these are the authorized positions,” he said.

That produced an angry response from Anthony D. Romero, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union, which is representing the plaintiffs. “This is not change,” he said in a statement. “This is definitely more of the same. Candidate Obama ran on a platform that would reform the abuse of state secrets, but President Obama’s Justice Department has disappointingly reneged on that important civil liberties issue. If this is a harbinger of things to come, it will be a long and arduous road to give us back an America we can be proud of again.”

SNIP - MORE AT LINKS

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empyreanisles Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Because believe it or not, some things regarding Intelligence need to be kept secret.
Or do you not understand the world of spies and covert actions.

Realize not everything is withheld to obscure wrong doing.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Useless generality not applicable to cases under discussion.
Edited on Tue Apr-21-09 11:39 AM by JackRiddler
And it's you who may not understand the "world of spies and covert actions."

That's the world of organized crime and corruption beyond the reach of oversight and law enforcement. That's the world of mobsters, drug dealers and money launderers. Very little is withheld except to obscure wrongdoing, or to pump up mostly non-existent threats so as to justify completely wasted spending in the trillions on "defense." LOL.

"Covert action" especially is nothing more than a euphemism for lawbreaking and war by secretive, political means. There is no place for "covert actions" in an democratic society or a republic of open institutions.

Even if you want to argue the contrary, based on some realpolitik justification that supposedly trumps the principle that republics can only operate with equality of knowledge, you still can't get around the actual, incontrovertible history of realpolitik:

Sixty years of continual disaster caused by "covert actions" around the world. "Covert action" has done NOTHING for American interests, it has always damaged the American people. "Covert action" is crime committed without their permission, but in their name.

"Covert action" has destroyed democracies, corrupted societies, supported corporate exploitation, unleashed and supported death squads and torturers in the thousands, bribed journalists and officials, and manufactured tons of disinformation, all with the result of making the United States hated, and actually creating the very enemies who were later attacked as evildoers.

Saddam, Osama, Hekmatyar, Noriega, Ali Mohamed, the "Blind Sheikh" - not by coincidence are all of these former CIA clients and "assets." "Blowback" is not an accident - it's pre-programmed and inevitable. It's not a side effect, it's the primary effect.

Go ahead, give us examples of when a "covert action" ever did any good for Americans. And if you find a couple, then show us how this good outweighs Pinochet, Mobuto, the Phoenix Program, Lon Nol, the heroin from Laos, the CIA-Contra crack pipeline, the death squads of El Salvador and Guatemala and Indonesia, the Bay of Pigs and what Nixon called "the Bay of Pigs thing" ...
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empyreanisles Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Well I have faith that such admittely despicable operations
Edited on Tue Apr-21-09 01:52 PM by empyreanisles
will NOT happen under the Obama Administration. You want to sell a message of "New Boss Same as the Old Boss" and I am not buying it.

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Oh my god!
You think a president is the boss of everything? You think these sorry platitudes of yours have anything to do with reality? Are you really so vulnerable in your idol worship that you think noting the obvious continuities of power in the American empire constitutes a particular condemnation of the present office-holder?

Sir, you're the only one trying to "sell a message" here, something so plainly naive that I don't trust you actually believe it.

Do you think secret bureaucracies, funded by 30 to 50 billion dollars a year, structures that have been growing for sixty years or longer, just grind to a halt and wait for the "new boss" to give them a direction?

(And here we're only talking about government spooks and their networks, never mind the independent corporate and financial centers of power, in a world where capital is the state.)

The official spook sector branches into a multipolar universe of proprietary companies, front groups, arrangements with warlords and mobsters, thousands of profit-making businesses reporting to no one, off-budget, black budget, above top secret... no oversight, a hundred heads, each not knowing what the other is doing thanks to "compartmentalization," each thinking of themselves as sovereign and above the law... thousands of tentacles, in the richest trades on earth: arms, drugs, money laundering, private security, airlines, smuggling ... and you really think a president changes that? Certainly not if he's talking the same bullshit line about how these parasites are there for "national security" and "serving their country"!

And if he challenges those notions, he's a dead man. There was one who was naive enough to think he was president, who talked out loud about controlling or breaking up the CIA, and he probably didn't even mean it. They blew his brains out in public and then killed the "lone gunman" on live TV, just to drive the point home. Then an industry of denialists arose to sell utter bullshit to the people for forty, fifty years, and this being Americans you'd think they'd actually buy that shit, that assassinations and coups only happen in other countries.

Incredibly, a majority don't.

Hope lives.

Don't feel you need to answer anything here, by the way. Enjoy your happy life.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Bullshit. Those are state secret invocations by the justice department.
Not by the Obama administration. Those arguments were created by the Bush justice department and MUST be ruled on by a court. The ruling establishes precedent.

Maybe he could direct Holder to abandon those particular lines - but that would keep them available for the next time the Bushies get in power to abuse again. Keeping the argument and letting the court rule AGAINST the argument removes it from the Bushies' arsenal, and lays the ground work for action against the torturers.

Tell me - why would these supposed state secret fetishists release the torture memos? Doesn't that kind of undercut that argument?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Where are the videos?
Have you seen the videos? Why don't they release the videos?

You like being kept in the dark?
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
9. Enuf sunshine is needed to illuminate sufficient evidence to force Repubz ...
into agreement on a formal investigation. K&R.
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. First the public needs to be persuaded the prosecutions are not politically
motivated but then comes the hard part.. eliciting testimony from those who were compromised, set up or simply coerced and then hung out to dry.
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