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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 09:22 AM
Original message
Tortured to Talk…or Tortured to KEEP QUIET?
Edited on Tue Apr-21-09 09:46 AM by Junkdrawer
DemocracyNow had an interesting program this morning. All about the CIA’s use of a private psychiatric firm to oversee torture. In the course of the discussion, an interesting point was made by Katherine Eban author of the “Rorschach and Awe” article published in Vanity Fair a while back. Here’s an excerpt from that article:


Abu Zubaydah was a mess. It was early April 2002, and the al-Qaeda lieutenant had been shot in the groin during a firefight in Pakistan, then captured by the Special Forces and flown to a safe house in Thailand. Now he was experiencing life as America's first high-value detainee in the wake of 9/11. A medical team and a cluster of F.B.I. and C.I.A. agents stood vigil, all fearing that the next attack on America could happen at any moment. It didn't matter that Zubaydah was unable to eat, drink, sit up, or control his bowels. They wanted him to talk.

A C.I.A. interrogation team was expected but hadn't yet arrived. But the F.B.I. agents who had been nursing his wounds and cleaning him after he'd soiled himself asked Zubaydah what he knew. The detainee said something about a plot against an ally, then began slipping into sepsis. He was probably going to die.

The team cabled the morsel of intelligence to C.I.A. headquarters, where it was received with delight by Director George Tenet. "I want to congratulate our officers on the ground," he told a gathering of agents at Langley. When someone explained that the F.B.I. had obtained the information, Tenet blew up and demanded that the C.I.A. get there immediately, say those who were later told of the meeting. Tenet's instructions were clear: Zubaydah was to be kept alive at all costs. (Through his publisher, George Tenet declined to be interviewed.)

Zubaydah was stabilized at the nearest hospital, and the F.B.I. continued its questioning using its typical rapport-building techniques. An agent showed him photographs of suspected al-Qaeda members until Zubaydah finally spoke up, blurting out that "Moktar," or Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, had planned 9/11. He then proceeded to lay out the details of the plot. America learned the truth of how 9/11 was organized because a detainee had come to trust his captors after they treated him humanely.

It was an extraordinary success story. But it was one that would evaporate with the arrival of the C.I.A's interrogation team. At the direction of an accompanying psychologist, the team planned to conduct a psychic demolition in which they'd get Zubaydah to reveal everything by severing his sense of personality and scaring him almost to death.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x297712


This morning's DemocracyNow discussion is online here:

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/4/21/the_story_of_mitchell_jessen_associates

So, information was coming out of the FBI’s LEGAL interrogation of Zubaydah and then the head of CIA hears this and sends in the torturers. At that point, information stops.

Now, the article implies Tenet acted out of interagency jealousy. But I wonder. You see, I’m a fan of the work of Nafeez Ahmed and Nafeez has documented many, many instances where what we call “al Qaeda” was used by US/Saudi oil interests throughout the Near East. He’s written several books on the subject, but here’s a good hour long talk he gave a few years back where he outlines his ideas:

http://www.radio4all.net/index.php/program/23955

So, if the Saudi GID and/or parts of the CIA were involved in using “al Qaeda” for their purposes, one could imagine Tenant becoming quite disturbed if he heard that high “al Qaeda” operatives were talking to FBI law enforcement types.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. And this also helps explain the extreme measures used to prevent detainees...
from having access to legal council, much less open trials.
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Kashka-Kat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. Also - to keep us quiet, we so-called "terrorist sympathizers"
Yes lets start talking about the REAL function of torture finally... it has nothing at all to do with obtaining info, every expert in the field knows this, and the sooner we stop pretending like it does the sooner we can put an end to it.

Societies under heavy repression like Pinochet's Chile - they all make use of torture in much the same way, to terrorize and scare people into repression. The locations of the prisons might be secret but its well known what's going on.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. As long as Cheney et. al. can claim they "Did it to keep America safe"...
there will be a large amount of support for torture and for the torturers.
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Kashka-Kat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
3. Also - to keep us quiet, we so-called "terrorist sympathizers"
Yes lets start talking about the REAL function of torture finally... it has nothing at all to do with obtaining info, every expert in the field knows this, and the sooner we stop pretending like it does the sooner we can put an end to it.

Societies under heavy repression like Pinochet's Chile - they all make use of torture in much the same way, to terrorize and scare people into repression. The locations of the prisons might be secret but its well known what's going on.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
4. yes
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. Transcript is up at DemocracyNow...

...

KATHERINE EBAN: Well, from my research, I found exactly the opposite, that there had been an FB—the issue is very active over the detainee Abu Zubaydah, and there had been an FBI interrogation team with him initially, which had basically nursed him back to health after gunshot wounds and used rapport-building, classic rapport-building tactics, which is what the FBI excels at, and it was because of those tactics that he revealed that KSM, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, was the architect of 9/11 and also revealed the name of Jose Padilla, and that in fact he was talking to interrogators until Mitchell showed up along with the CIA interrogation team, began imposing these harsh tactics, and Zubaydah clammed up.


So, in response to that, they made a request to accelerate these tactics. I think they refer to it in the memos that were just released as an “intense pressure phase.” You know, basically, what my sources say is, “Sure, these tactics, these coercive tactics, can get you to talk. But about what? So how do you verify the legitimacy of the information?” Well, apparently, under torture, Zubaydah gave investigators a lot of false leads, which ate up the time of American intelligence back at home. So, you know, the debate is a very live one. There are people in the CIA who say these tactics absolutely worked, and I do think that this is going to be a central question of investigations as they go forward, is the effectiveness of these tactics. And people are now—yeah.


AMY GOODMAN: You know, I thought it was very interesting, Katherine Eban, how you describe what happened. The FBI there, they’re getting intelligence that they think is actually useful. George Tenet, then Director of Central Intelligence, hears about this. He’s very proud that intelligence is coming out from the interrogation. And then he’s informed it’s not coming from CIA interrogators, it’s coming from FBI interrogators. And he hits the roof. And that’s when they send in Jessen and the other CIA interrogators. You could take it from there.


KATHERINE EBAN: Right. You know, and let me just say that they sent in Mitchell. I don’t believe that Jessen was there at that point. But it was interesting—


AMY GOODMAN: I mean Mitchell.


KATHERINE EBAN: —that Mitchell Jessen—Mitchell’s company at that point closed up shop about a day before—the day after Zubaydah was captured, and then he was deployed to Thailand to the safe house where they were interrogating Zubaydah. But what you had in this situation was a classic turf war. You know, you had the CIA wanting to take the credit for getting actionable intelligence.


As soon as they started using these coercive tactics, it had a rather profound effect, which is that the FBI felt compelled to withdraw their investigators from the scene. The effect of that, the end result, is that the CIA had total control over these interrogations. So, by using these coercive tactics, they also won a turf war.

....

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/4/21/the_story_of_mitchell_jessen_associates
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
7. Or tortured to get a fake confession that Saddam had WMD..

March 2003
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm so glad you posted this. Eban called Mitchell and Jessen
"wannabes". They're the two psychologists who "reverse engineered" SERE and they had nothing, NADA that backed up their methods let alone, their outcomes.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
9. If you look at the historical use of torture, it is rarely to obtain information.
It's purposes are usually punishment, brainwashing, silence or any combination of the above.

Anyone who takes some time to critically think through the process (and has the courage to use their imagination to take them into the darkest corners of the human psyche) can figure this out easily enough.
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
10. K&R
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
11. KnR for greater visibility. Heinous is too weak a word to describe these actions. n/t
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populistdriven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
12. that vanity fair link is bad here is a fixed one
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. THANKS...
:hi:
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