On UFO and human motivations part II (yes it is getting large)

[nadinbrzezinski]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5504319

Ok... lets play a game of lets pretend.

First visitations have happened across history... for some reason Von Daniken has a point. He, and proponents of the theory have yet to answer the most simple of questions... why?

If this is happening, I'd say it is curiosity pure and simple.We advanced hairless apes are very curious, why not others?

We humans are all but a threat to any advanced civilization capable of folding space-time, why I at times take issue with the kidnapping of humans... kind of why? Tough accidents do happen, and perhaps some of those UFO going down may have a shred of truth.

Yet, what is true is that we have some stories going all they way to antiquity that MIGHT be contact. Ezekiel comes to mind and so the Vedas. Still why? I still offer curiosity

As to modern governments, why would they keep the secret? Quite simple the function of any modern state is to keep its citizens safe. Here we assume something that can penetrate air space, no problemo...so any paranoid government will see them as a threat. Never mind that for our hypothetical ET this is kind of...you are not even something I care about. Again, we are talking of incredible technologies that we cannot imagine that allow them to cross that barrier we know is immense.

Now am I saying ET is actually coming to Earth? I don't care, but it is an amusing exercise and as a fiction writer I've been playing with this concept for five years. That said to me it is the height of hubris to believe that we are the only sentient species ever to develop technology, and given the great expanse of space time since the big bang, (13.5 B) I find it highly unlikely that life has only risen on Earth, let alone sentience. And hells bells parallel evolution has produced the form of dolphins three times in geologic history, perhaps bipeds have risen more than once?

Mind you, it is also the height of hubris to believe that Aliens were behind the Great Pyramids, the Anthitakera mechanism and other great advancements of the ancient world. We have a brain, and know how to use it.

Now if ET is readying this (for the joke impaired it is one)... can you please let me know you are real? Might want to exchange some ideas...

Now as to MOST UFOs, they're under contract of the US government, that was said by a Skunk Words Engineer, and he's right. But there is this very small percentage, less than 1% that cannot be explained.

This is the source of these theories, and for some folks, it comes down to the belief that life has only evolved here... I suspect we are in for a surprise in this regard in my lifetime. Or worst yet, the belief that if we cannot develop certain technologies, nobody else can. Suffice it to say this is also a very western attitude arising from Imperial thought.

Personally I prefer to believe that perhaps somebody else has solved the problems of interstellar travel and that someday we will...and no I doubt them cute ETs will help either.

What is true is "that the more I learn, the less I know"... for sure

Google that quote by the way...

[ArtVandelay]

1. What if they don't want to interfere with our development?

As a scientist I know that you try to avoid interfering with development, otherwise you change it. Remember even in Star Trek there was a Prime Directive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Assuming they are

they wouldn't

For that exact reason

Hells bells we know the damage done by Anthropologists studying primitive cultures in our world, for real

The researchers went local, they still did damage

So any contact, in my view, would be purely accidental...

(Of course that's not the case in the fictional world, but that's another story... thank you Daniken and Chariots of the Gods)

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. We had a recent fire... er flame war

over the issue

And I detected the two major schools

It is happening, can't you see?

And the... YOU NUTS? Realize the distances involved?

As a fiction writer I have been playing with this for real for the last five years

The sci fi world I created starts exactly at that point when we humans find out we are not alone

Now this ET is us... not the ET I am proposing here, the researcher, who is just curious about us, and other species across the galaxy.

So I wanted to have a more balanced discussion as to how it MIGHT be happening. And even there I saw the extreme hubris of life has only evolved here. I doubt that, and the evidence is starting to gel regarding this. In my view this will lead to a crisis to major religions, especially the three major revelatory faiths.

[ArtVandelay]

7. Did you see the Star Trek Next Gen movie where they are observing

a planet that they, in fact, know was colonized, and it must be evacuated? They spent the movie trying to save these people without interfering with their development. That has always stuck in my mind as what we probably are, to some degree. I have no doubt that evolution has occurred on our planet but that is not the whole truth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Yeah, but I assume absolutely no interventions

in history, or genetics... (now in the world I created, absolutely)

[HysteryDiagnosis]

31. Article...

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/31770

A proposal for such a wormhole comes from Yaroslav Kurylev at University College London in the UK and colleagues in the US and Finland, who came up with the idea by building on the mathematical theory that gave us the invisibility cloak — a device that was realized for microwaves last year. Whereas in an invisibility cloak rays of light are guided around a cylindrical or spherical volume like water flowing around a stone, a wormhole would have light guided around a more elaborate, tubular shape. The device would appear solid at most wavelengths of light, but at cloaking wavelengths it would disappear, and light entering the tube at one end would emerge at the other with no visible tunnel in-between (Phys. Rev. Lett. 99 183901).

[Grinchie]

29. I just saw the remake of "The Day The Earth Stood Still" Worst movie ever.

I can't believe how stupid they made the characters in this film.

The original is an even bigger classic than this Fox remake.

[cliffordu]

2. maybe we're food.

[dorkulon]

8. It's a cookbook! /nt

[Amonester]

6. Me no want that kind of contact:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3685057745653803611

(click on the slider bar to get it played from 26:00 to 29:00)
(__apparently, that movie was based on a true-life story___)


the fact is, we don't know anything about them and how they live

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Why guv'ments would keep a secret

and yes, that incident is part of the UFO community

Me, fear leads to incredible stories

Compare and contrast with Ezekiel, who, assuming there was contact, had no fear

[Amonester]

17. Maybe Ezekiel was (still is) of the Elohims "species" and...

the ETs in that (claimed) real-life story could be seen as belonging to some sort of Evil species.. (from 1:23:00 to 1:26:00)

there might be many other species and we might never know their who's, why's or how's

[Occam Bandage]

9. A sculptor with an unlimited supply of clay

would not choose to spend his days wandering the Earth looking to see if the winds and sands had perhaps naturally formed a rock into a statue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. That statement also applies to a god that interferes in human

events

Another thing I don't believe in

An oberver perhaps, something or somebody who plays a direct role...no

[Occam Bandage]

13. I would liken a God that interferes in human events

to a sculptor who makes a statue that cannot stand on its own unless the sculptor continually holds up the weak spots. He wouldn't be a very good sculptor.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. The problem is that artist would fit the definition of an alien

in insert here, revelatory religion

See Chariots of the Gods... and follow that logic

Me... there is nothing interfering in human history, or lord I am going to be pissed with this god for allowing things like the Holocaust to happen in modern times, or ordering Joshua to commit genocide while taking Cana'an

hardly an artist that god

[Occam Bandage]

15. Yes, I think "UFOlogy" is best described as a religion.

Its claims are, like those of religion, absurd, non-testable, non-falsifiable, reliant entirely upon individual testimony of miracles, and focusing mainly on providing a compelling myth of creation/purpose. Nobody wants to think that humanity is sitting unnoticed on a spinning rock in an endless, black, cold, uncaring universe. It strips us of our dignity. Better to assume that someone is watching, waiting, tinkering.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Well thinking that life has only emerged on Earth over the course

of 13.5 B years has its own charm

Believing that we are alone is also religion in its own way

It is a particular type of hubris

Now some in the UFO community are engaged in a form of religion, but so are the nothing to see here and life is exclusive to Earth crowd

I'll even offer it

And man was created in the image of god

genesis one

And man was created in the image of the gods

genesis Two

In my mind believing that life emerged in more than one world is not a contradiction in terms

Neither is to believe that life has a tendency to develop curious beings... after all we are

And as is, in my lifetime, due to the deep space array, we will find out whether extrasolar objects, which ten years ago were only theoretical, might support carbon based life. Revelatory religions will have a crisis at that point.

[Occam Bandage]

21. I'm not sure why you keep going back to the claim

that life has arisen independently multiple times in the universe. I do not doubt that. I would guess that life is pretty common. I have no idea how common multicellular life is, or eukaryotic life is, or photosynthesizing life is, or aerobic life is, I am pretty sure that intelligent life is rare but exists elsewhere, and I don't really see what any of that has to do with UFOs. Extraterrestrial life is certainly necessary for alien visitations, but it is by no means sufficient--and nobody, to the best of my knowledge, counters claims that aliens have visited Earth with the counterclaim that life is certainly limited entirely to Earth.

To claim that skepticism regarding unsupported and extraordinary claims amounts to religion is failure to understand either religion or skepticism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Nothing is certain

but I will make an extraordinary claim from having worked with government types.

In this sense the UFO people have it right

IF... big assumption here, IF a UFO crashed anywhere in the world, or invaded any national airspace... governments would keep that secret

Why?

Talk to any guv'ment type

1.- Violates the sense of national safety and security

2.- Challenges directly their authority

One thing you should know by now is that things that are seen as a challenge to state power... no matter the origin, will be covered up or suppressed. Whether it is student demonstrations, riots or extraordinary events such as possible, with a grain of salt, alien contact

I am not saying that visitations happened across history, unless we are talking of the sci fi world I created. There they did...and thanks Mr. Chariots of the Gods himself as he once again provided much fodder to the fiction writer...hell many popular culture story has used this over the last five decades, But I have no interest in denying there is a very distant possibility something like this has happened... and it all has to do with myths going back oh a long time... it didn't start in 1948 in New Mexico.

The Vedas are full of references to flying ships fighting in the air, Ezekiel has a tantalizing image... and we have plenty of carvings...alas this is the tip of the iceberg...things one finds out when doing research.

Will I take the step to say that the pyramids were built by Aliens? No

Anthytekera mechanism? For god sakes no way

But at least I have an open mind and if the evidence comes tomorrow I will not try to deny it

But will examine it with the critical eye required

But I am not starting from the it can't happen.

My level of hubris is not involved in this

Do I expect it? Not only no, but hell no.

On the other hand... there was this wonderful revelation from the Mexican AF, and I find it of interest that the US government had the interest to debunk, not examine, but debunk

Same thing when the Brazilians decided to come clean

I suspect it also has to do with how incredibly religious the US is

If, big IF, we ever find out there is life out there for real, let alone sentient life, it will directly challenge the Christian myth, like it did when Columbus discovered (stumbled) onto the New World.

[dorkulon]

25. Yeah, how did CHristianity survive Colombus?

It survived Galileo, Darwin, and it would easily survive aliens.

To your point: Just because the gov't WOULD keep something secret, doesn't mean they ARE doing so. You know what else would cause the gov't not to talk about alien visitors? If there were no alien visitors.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. There was a crisis of faith

and the catholic church held many a meeting deciding whether these humans were misguided,demons or even had a soul

Perhaps this is why the Catholic Church is ahead of the curve these days and has accepted not only the possibility of extrasolar life, but the certainty of it

But I am positive you knew this

Hell after the discovery of America there was a very intense Millenarian period that lasted about fifty years.

This is where the Black Legend also has its origin by the way

Kudos if you know what that is

[napoleon_in_rags]

16. Why do we assume interstellar travel is necessary for contact?

Just to throw something else in here, consider the possibility that we could contact aliens without them traveling here at all. Quantum mechanics has shown us ample examples of spooky action at a distance operating faster than the speed of light, such as with quantum entanglement. What about the possibility that we could somehow create a 'field' that was entangled with other versions of the same 'field', whenever it occurred, everywhere in the universe? What if the first time we fired up this field, we saw signals being represented in it, and realized we were hearing others somewhere in the universe?

It would make for cool sci-fi anyway.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Of course that is a possibilty but we would have to have the tech

to ahem detect it...

the Histo... er UFO channel is going over Nazi UFOs right now... and time space bells sound very cute...and could be a QM device

Should take notes

[napoleon_in_rags]

38. Ah! I love the Nazi UFO channel.

There is some quote I saw from a top Nazi about how their greatest purpose was to construct "a new man". I think he was talking philosophy and eugenics, but I always thought there was a good story in the idea that some weird super secret Nazi experiments created the gray aliens, as basically an attempt to create hyper intelligent humans, and they created UFOs and whatnot from their underground base in the Andes or whatever using their super brains.

[seemslikeadream]

18. TIME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7NOOBaZBjw









http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDA-qPweHLk

[Raksha]

30. I don't know who or what made that crop circle--or crop spiral?

But it's incredibly beautiful. I'm still on dial-up and don't even try to watch videos, but it's beautiful even as a still photograph.

[spin]

22. Perhaps the aliens film us for their version of the "Animal Planet"...

After all we film chimps and apes for our entertainment.

And what exactly do the chimps and the apes feel about us?

Perhaps long ago the aliens landed on our planet to refuel or to mine rare items. They could have easily done some genetic modification on a semi-intelligent species of ape and used the result to accomplish some tasks.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:26

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. I'll admiti it, using that in science fiction

but that passage you quoted...is one reason for the environmental crisis

:-)

Darn aliens, making sure we'd never leave this solar system

[spin]

27. Many other civilizations lived more in harmony with nature...

then the three religions who believe in the Old Testament.

I've often wondered if humans are really native to this planet. Nature has a way of balancing an environment. But if you take a species of plant or animal from one area of the world and move it to another, you can throw the environment off. A recent example is the release of pet Burmese pythons in the Florida everglades. Even the alligators are threatened. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/06/0603_040603_invasivespecies.html

One thing I do believe is that there are plenty of other intelligent species elsewhere in the Universe. We are at the testing stage to see if we are fit to join them. If we are smart enough to handle the technology necessary to leave this planet and journey to the stars we pass the test. If we lack the ability to get along with each other and form a peaceful world, we fail, and we destroy ourselves.

If aliens are indeed watching us, will they intervene? If so, why?

The development of religion is a fascinating subject. In some early civilizations such as Sumer, some of the myths could be interpreted as ancient mankind's attempts to describe alien encounters.

However, ancient man was as intelligent as modern man. He just lacked our technology. He would marvel at what we can do today, just as we marvel at what he accomplished.

[lapfog_1]

28. Probably editing a travel guide of sorts...

We now rate a two word entry... updated from 1000 years ago.

"Mostly Harmless"

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Add two worlds to the entry

"and violent."

Encyclopedia Galactica...

[Hanse]

32. So, aliens are secretly kidnapping people with the help of the gov. because they're curious.

Curious about our anuses in particular.

OK, makes good sense.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Read the OP again, I did not say they are engaged in kidnappings

what I clearly said is that governments will hide the presence of anything that can challenge them, or suppress it

Whether that is your local ET, or your local civil rights movement is immaterial

If this is perceived as a threat, it is hidden

That said, lets take that leap

if we captured an alien would we subject that alien to... vivisection? Or just dissection?

Think about it. I think we would. And if you think we would not... you know little of humanity actually

So ET experimenting on humans is pure projection of human motives

[Liberal In Texas]

33. Maybe we're an experiment. Started a long long time ago.

Neanderthals should have become dominant but were crowded out by the suddenly ascendant Homo sapiens. Was there outside intervention (ala 2001: A Space Odyssey)?

Perhaps, whoever started the experiment periodically returns to tweak the genetics or to observe from a distance how the long term project is going. All the questions we have and the speculation will remain questions and speculation without more information or some future revelation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Yeah Asimov might have something on this

who knows?

If we are an experiment, I'd say a failed one, but that's just me

[seemslikeadream]

37. Evolution & Hidden Archeology

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjDvtCqFD8M

Author and researcher Michael Cremo talked about the evidence contradicting the Darwinian theory of human evolution, footprints that date back millions of years, and dinosaurs co-existing with humans.
Renowned author and researcher Michael Cremo talked about the evidence contradicting the Darwinian theory of human evolution, footprints that date back millions of years, and dinosaurs co-existing with humans.
Looking at the possibility that there were previous advanced civilizations on Earth, he pointed out that modern buildings made of steel and glass will not last over vast periods of time. However,ancient stone structures, like the pyramids, remain intact to this day. "So, I think we have to ask, who's really more advanced," Cremo mused. "They are discovering evidence all over the world, up to the present
moment," Cremo said of findings that suggest "modern" humans existed in ancient times. He discussed recent reports from Kenya of footprints, matching the contemporary human foot, found in layers of rock about 1.5 million years old. Unfortunately, Cremo said, instead of acknowledging the amazing find for what it is, scientists have tried to fit it into pre-conceived notions of human evolution.

He lamented that "this is a perfect example of how this knowledge filtering process works."
Additionally, Cremo stated that "there is evidence that humans were present" before, during, and after the age of the dinosaurs. To support this contention, he noted the famous evidence of "human footprints alongside dinosaur footprints" found in Texas and a modern human skeleton found in a 300 million-year-old layer of slate rock in Illinois. Since humans peacefully co-exist with dinosaur ancestors like crocodiles in today's world, Cremo theorized that such cohabitation would have been possible in ancient times as well.