Cheney Succeeding In Shifting Torture Debate?

[babylonsister]

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/cheney-succeeding-in-shifting-torture-debate/

Cheney Succeeding In Shifting Torture Debate?

In case you’re wondering whether Dick Cheney and other former Bushies are succeeding in shifting the torture debate on to the narrow question of whether torture has “worked,” take a look at this headline, photo, and article in today’s New York Times:



This is precisely what Cheney and other Bushies want the debate to be about: Whether torture has stopped terror attacks, as opposed to whether it’s moral, or detrimental to America’s global image, or a boon to Al Qaeda recruitment, or whether the architects of the policy broke the law and should be prosecuted.

The Bushies want this question — “did torture stave off terror attacks and save lives?” — hovering in the air. There’s plenty of evidence that torture hasn’t worked at all and has done more harm than good. Even some former Bush administration officials have conceded it hasn’t done anything to stop terror attacks.

But it’s easy for the Cheney camp to muddy the waters and turn this into a matter of debate by citing unspecified classified info that supposedly supports the claim that it has saved lives — info that we’ll never see. Having the debate focused this way also lays the groundwork for the Cheney camp to say “I told you so” in the event of another terror attack.

One more time: Cheney and the Bushies have mounted a relentless campaign to shift this debate that shows no signs of abating. Whatever the downside of Cheney’s re-emergence for the GOP, it may be working. Where’s the push-back on this from the White House, or at least its allies in Congress and elsewhere?

[Solly Mack]

1. K&R

[NC_Nurse]

2. Why isn't anyone asking: Did we lose our souls? Whether or not we got any

information is beside the point.

[OneGrassRoot]

3. He won't be if more details of the TYPES of torture finally come to light:

"In the meeting, the officials professed ignorance about Abu Ghraib. "Could you tell us what happened?" Wolfowitz asked. Someone else asked, "Is it abuse or torture?" At that point, Taguba recalled, "I described a naked detainee lying on the wet floor, handcuffed, with an interrogator shoving things up his rectum, and said, 'That's not abuse. That's torture.' There was quiet."

http://www.truthout.org/article/seymour-hersh-the-generals-report

I'm trying to find anything Sy Hersh has said/written this week.

[babylonsister]

5. Here's one of the interrogators who also should be believed-

torture doesn't work! :grr:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5518838&mesg_id=5518838

[ohheckyeah]

4. It's up to us to turn the debate back to the

legality and morality of torture. The end does not justify the means!

[Supersedeas]

6. note how easily and effortlessly the Corp Media is shuffled into that position--if the Brazen Bull

works...shouldn't we use it.

[Towlie]

7. Personally, I don't give a rat's ass whether it works or not. It's wrong.

[mod mom]

10. and ILLEGAL!

[bdamomma]

18. and totally against the Geneva Convention.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

8. It actually doubles his burden.

Instead of just having to prove the legality/morality of torture, he now has to prove its efficacy as well. It's not an either-or proposition. He's doubled his chances of failing.

[Junkdrawer]

16. Yep. And until recently, Cheney's "Torture kept us safe" went unchallenged...

And now it's being exposed for the lie that it is.

[DearAbby]

9. torture was terminated...

REMEMBER what they were trying to get out of the suspects....WAS SADDAM ANYWAY CONNECTED TO OSAMA BIN LADEN AND AQ?


The anwer was: NO, if they wanted false confessions... I guess that didnt work either, because Bush had to finally admit there was no connection, he even had to go so far as to lie about trying to connect Iraq to 911.

[blogslut]

11. No. It did not

The real point got drug up like a howling cat yesterday.

They tortured in order to obtain false confessions. Those confessions (to plots) were bargaining chips for the case for war.

[MADem]

12. Just because some asshole proclaims that something is at "core of debate" doesn't make it so.

It's not at the core of anything. It's a "Look over there" exercise, a distraction.

I think we ought to ask why Cheney is revealing the existence of material that is still classified, and, in a halfassed way, revealing the contents of the classified material by suggesting that it's "the opposite" of material that has already been released. He's not in the "executive branch" any more, and he has no right to "declassify by innuendo" any material that still has a classification stamp on it. What he's doing with his "careless talk" is illegal.

You know, I saw a shitload of classified material over the years when I was in uniform. I can't chit-chat about that shit to suit my purposes, or to argue a position, or even just for brags and giggles. I do love it when stuff gets declassified, because then one can discuss it, but until that happens, it's "Keep it zipped, Zippy!"

Classified material is classified material. That's the bottom line. Dick has no authority to declassify anything anymore.

Of course, Deferment Dick never learned, in a military setting, about how important that stuff is, or the potential penalties for releasing classified material. If he had, he wouldn't be flapping his gums.

Ironically, while he was SECDEF, more than a few careers ended because of failure to properly secure classified material. He should think back to those days before he opens his big fat mouth.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Born_A_Truman]

14. That, and now the implicit threats and name calling (Banana Republic)

Kit Bond was just on MSNBC with Andrea Mitchell tossing out the "Banana Republic" meme and saying how there were things the Clinton administration did that the Bush administration could have investigated (like the GOP didn't HOUND Clinton for 8 years already!) and they "moved on". He also threw in the threat of if you go after the lawyers, what about members of congress who knew and funded, etc--and what if when a Republican administration gets into power and goes after the Obama administration....

They are getting very desperate.

[Caliman73]

15. That is a stupid tactic that I hope Obama's administration does not fall for

There will certainly be people who abuse their power in Obama's administration. It is the nature of power. President Obama and his closest staff will have to keep on top of it and address issues as they come up. The difference is that this illegality was mandated from the top and was for a specific purpose. This was not some person at the FDA taking bribes or, some Justice Dept. person taking a flight sponsored by a lobbyist. This was torture for the sake of falsifying information to lead our nation into a war that had destroyed our standing in the world and has cost the lives of our soldiers and hundreds of billions of dollars. We cannot let Rove and Cheney frame this as policy differences. Policy differences are whether to shift taxes from the wealthy to the middle class. Policy differences are whether to engage in diplomacy with perceived adversaries or to cut off communication. Those are things which one can argue from a policy position. This is not policy, this is law. Torture is illegal, lying to Congress is illegal, waging war on sovereign nations based on false information is illegal. That is where the message needs to remain.

[WeDidIt]

17. It's a redirection, but cannot work in the arena of law

Results don't matter. It's a question of international law that has been settled since Nuremburg.

[chollybocker]

19. I like the screen-cap of the article, "sponsored by 'My Life in Ruins'."

Indeed.

[sampsonblk]

20. The media always want something new

Amid this steady drip drip of details come Cheney's BS. So it makes a splash. The next time real details emerge, Cheney will be out of the news and the media will focus on that instead.

At least I hope so.