Torture Is Not A "Policy" -- Torture Is A War Crime

[Senator]

Holder's use of the right-wing talking point "criminalizing policy differences" is shocking.

They still don't get it.

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[polichick]

1. Holder said "criminalizing policy differences?"

[Senator]

4. Yes, it was the "headline" of his testimony

The http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/23/AR2009042303543_pf.html">full quote is here (and soon to be everywhere):

"I will not permit the criminalization of policy differences. However, it is my responsibility as the attorney general to enforce the law," Holder told a congressional hearing. "If I see wrongdoing, I will pursue it to the full extent of the law."

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[polichick]

6. Maybe he used it to make the distinction clear to Republicans...

...between that and enforcing the law ~ doesn't bother me in this context.

[Senator]

24. But there is no distinction because there is no "that."

Which is why it's a RW propaganda meme. It's designed to not bother you. See my #18 below.

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[polichick]

25. It doesn't bother me because he is trying to neutralize it, as the poster...

...below suggests. He's making a distinction, using their own term for their benefit.

[unblock]

13. the republicans have already policized criminal differences....

[polichick]

15. LOL

[geckosfeet]

2. This is the phrase that is being bandied about. Rove raved on Hannity.

They are scared. But they will lie all the way to the grave. Keep up the pressure and put them in jail.

[Kitty Herder]

16. It seems like they're all still in lockstep with Rove.

How utterly pathetic.

[Senator]

28. They've used it for years.

It was a big symptom of impeachophobia.

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[JuniperLea]

3. I just had that discussion with a cousin who apparently sees nothing wrong with torture...

The Geneva Conventions are not a policy... they are a collection of treaties we agreed upon with other nations in the world.

I told my cousin I thought it was really wrong to thing torture is ok... because if it's ok for us, it's ok for others to torture our people too.

I'm still waiting for the reply... but the first part of the convo was speckled with 9/11 and how safe we are now... naturally I reminded him that 9/11 happened on Bush's watch. Ugh.

[ejpoeta]

5. tell your cousin....

so, you support the torture of american soldiers? because by saying that torture is ok, then you are saying torture of OUR soldiers is ok. period. end of discussion.

[JuniperLea]

7. Were you reading my email?

*wink wink*

I said exactly that!

:hug:

[ejpoeta]

12. lol. great mnds think alike. and not because some RW mouthpiece told us so.

[Senator]

11. You might send your cousin this video of Fox's Sheperd Smith

About 25 seconds in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEtFMj6ZiHM

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[JuniperLea]

17. Awesome!

Indeed I will!

I love it when people cut loose like that:)

I hope he doesn't lose his gig over there... maybe he's allowed to take that side in case the groundswell of support pushes Fox to look for ratings in those who know the truth!

:rofl:

Thanks for that link! Good stuff!

[Kitty Herder]

19. Torture is against U.S. law, too.

The War Crimes Act defines any grave breach of the Geneva convention as a war crime under U.S. law.

Not to mention the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment in the Constitution. But, of course, Republicans tend not to care about the Constitution.

[JuniperLea]

22. They seem to think the Geneva convention is a policy choice...

I think not.

[pat_k]

26. Of course.

And, even if there were some bizarre legalism or technicality that a corrupt lawyer could invoke to open a magical "loophole" in Title 18, 2441 (War Crimes); Title 18, 113C (Torture; Article III of Geneva; or the UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, it wouldn't matter.

As David Brant, Director of NCIS, 1997-2005, put it:

It was pretty basic, black and white to me. I didn’t know or care what the rules were that had been set by the Department of Defense at that point. We were going to do what was morally, ethically and legally permissible.

The torture defenders often say things like "The memos are incredibly detailed" (i.e., Must be right. They are soooo long. Makes my brain hurt.) or "They took enormous care. These are complex issues." (i.e., Must be good because they must have worked really, really hard to write so many words.)

Our prohibitions against mistreatment of ANY person in the custody of the state are crystal clear. No legalistic mumbo jumbo can trump reality or the plain intent of the law. Contrary to what the followers of bushncheney-ism believe, it doesn't matter how long, "complicated," or "sophisticated" the so-called "analysis" -- when the conclusion is patently absurd, the "analysis" is crap. No need to even look at it. Garbage out; garbage in.

[spanone]

8. maybe it is the republican policy....they have sunk so low...

[gcomeau]

9. That you so blatantly ripped his comment out of context is more shocking.

He said he wouldn't criminalize policy differences, but he sure as hell did NOT say torture WAS a "policy difference".

[EFerrari]

10. He does get it. Looks like he's trying to neutralize the talking point.

But, he could have done a better job.

[Senator]

18. I don't see how parroting a meme can neutralize it.

Trying to "balance" the phrase with an "enforce the law" follow up only validates the nonsense and elevates it to an equal footing with actual law enforcement debate.

This is how the propaganda works. And it is propaganda. It is not connected to any reality. There really is no such thing. All the seemingly-innocuous phrase actually means is "don't prosecute (repub) politicians when they break the law."

It can only be neutralized by dismissing it.

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[EFerrari]

21. He was trying to draw a distinction. And I understand what you're saying.

[Echo In Light]

14. Oh, they "get it," they just don't give a fuck. BIG difference there

[Kitty Herder]

20. This is important.

We can't let them make this about "policy." It's about heinous crimes committed by the Bush administration.

[pat_k]

23. kick!

[Senator]

27. Hmmm ... Rachel Maddow Show Cut It Out

It's good that they're not repeating such claptrap, but bad that it's covering for Holder's cluelessness.

I'd prefer that she challenge (notice?) it.

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[omega minimo]

29. The newsbots gobbledegook over torture is worse than the jabberwocky over revaluing valueless assets

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5516245&mesg_id=5516245


"Euphemedia" indeed