In everyone keeping track of how Cheney (and the Cons) have shifted the "torture debate"

[Norquist Nemesis]

First, they declared outright "we do not torture".
Next, they said their methods were not torture but "enhanced interrogation techniques."
Then, they said we did what we had to do and we're not apologizing for it.
NOW, they're saying...yeah, we tortured, but it worked!

:banghead: It's a big fuck you to the rule of law AND the Constitution!

[lumberjack_jeff]

1. If you tortured and you're glad you did.

Then why did you send people to prison for following your orders.

The obvious answer is because he's a coward.

[Norquist Nemesis]

3. I'm hoping the DOJ will pay a nice visit to Scooter and have a chat

He might be ready to talk now.

[Duer 157099]

2. Yes. Pay close attention to how Cheney operates, he doesn't change his MO

Remember during the Plame incident, when he was on with Russert, (and I've forgotten the specific details) but essentially he was dropping the meme so that everyone could then follow suit and point back to that interview. It's like seeding crystals. Dick provides that role, for whatever reason.

In this case, the seed was the "torture works" meme.

[Norquist Nemesis]

5. The most troubling aspect is having Cons on across the airwaves now

actually putting a stamp of approval on it "because it worked". This is so disgusting and disturbing to watch it happening. :(

[babylonsister]

4. Yep:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5518897

Cheney Succeeding In Shifting Torture Debate?

snip//

[Norquist Nemesis]

6. Thanks...as soon as I'm hearing hosts ask, "Does it work? We'll have two guests..."

at that point, it's over unless it gets hit back HARD that it's ILLEGAL! I can't believe what I've been seeing.

[wroberts189]

14. They are making a mockery of themselves. American propaganda ..

..has always been subtle but these days they are going full Pravda .. it will not work and it is already not working but backfiring. See this:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x302225

They are only drawing attention to crimes having been committed.

The pubs are trying to defend the indefensible. They have got so used their big lies working they are not noticing they no longer work.

[spanone]

33. with the glad help of the media...not the point whatsover

[Just-plain-Kathy]

7. Obama has to play the game the the neo-cons have been playing all along.

Obama has to wrap himself in the American flag, declare he will uphold the Constitution, delve into the outcome of the past two president elections. Obama has to become Yankee-Doodle Dandy.

Because there are so many people who feel we should torture and torturing prisoners are keeping us safe, Obama has to go after Bush and Cheney for some of the many other treasonous actions of their administration. ...Hmmm, say for war profiteering, or giving bailouts to crony corporations, or lying to us about connecting Saddam to 9-11.

[Norquist Nemesis]

10. "So many people who feel we should torture"

They are a minority.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

34. They are a very loud minority. One of which controls our media. ..n/t

[Muttocracy]

8. Richard Wolff was reviewing some of that with KO tonight

as far as what he (RW) had asked Bush in press conferences. Bush had said they'd follow the law - but of course they were trying to change the law as they went...

[Norquist Nemesis]

9. Technically, they weren't changing the law though

(I didn't catch KO tonight, but will watch it later. It's good to know that SOMEONE is getting this shifting/re-framing and exposing it.)

They were re-interpreting what the law allows them to do and writing policies that fell within those 'guidelines'. Just because they put a little white-out on the category of "Torture" and wrote in "Enhanced Interrogation" doesn't change the law.

In fact, as much as Bush would have liked to change the law, it would be Unconstitutional for him to do so. What they now saying is, they broke the laws they were Constitutionally required to uphold (and this wasn't the first time, as we all know).

[Muttocracy]

12. yeah, and I was only half-listening while reading DU so I'm not sure how detailed they got. nt

[wroberts189]

11. They are trying hard but failing harder imho. nt

[merh]

13. you forgot to include

"and dems approved it too"

[Norquist Nemesis]

16. I'm not in that boat as yet

I realize people are ready to "let the chips fall where they may". I also realize that there has likely been some big-time blackmailing going on. Bushetals put Dems in a Catch-22 and Bush/Cheney were holding all of the cards.

Anyone recall when Rockefeller wrote the confidential memo to Cheney about the illegal wiretapping? When that came out, Cheney dismissed it as a CYA memo. Rockefeller took the oath seriously about not divulging anything briefed in confidential hearings...and EVERYTHING was under the confidential category. Bush/Cheney were making sure everything was in that classification. The only thing that would have been accomplished had any Dem come out or leaked it would have been for them to be in jail and up on treason charges, with a big media circus dutifully covering their demise.

eta: Dems having knowledge about it through highly classified briefings is not the same things as Dems approving of it.

[merh]

22. I meant that should be included as one of the debate points

that the right keep throwing out there as if that excuses the crime.

The way the bush admin worked, they weren't willing to share much with dems, if they used the term "harsh interrogation techniques" I don't believe they explained the actual techniques. And of course, they included the safeguard - physicians oversaw the techniques.

[Norquist Nemesis]

23. Ah, agreed. And Pelosi has come out and confirmed they weren't full briefings

despite Cons getting face time to lie and say that they were (how would they know?). You're absolutely correct about the way the Bushetals worked, too. But, I still have a suspicion there was Rovian blackmail going on. And DeLay wasn't shy about putting his bootheel on the throat of anyone.

[Dogmudgeon]

15. As those crazy, crazy kids would say: EPIC FAIL.

(I'm only in it for the LOLZ)

--d!

[glitch]

17. Sounds like a slippery slope to a conviction for war crimes.

Keep talking Dick.

[Norquist Nemesis]

18. He's got Liz out there now. How she's an expert on these matters

that she can go on TV claiming she is fully aware of highly classified matters...oops!

[glitch]

19. Oh dear, had to call for back up? Already? Bodes ill. Next he'll bring the grand kids out.

"See, I am human!"

[Norquist Nemesis]

20. I expect to see Lynne by next Tuesday

Maybe Mary will make an appearance, too!

[glitch]

21. Thank you for watching so that I don't have to.

Seriously, my head would explode. It can barely handle reading about their antics.

[B Calm]

24. What really pisses me off, they allowed enlisted people to go to jail

for torture, when they ordered it to be done!

[Norquist Nemesis]

26. That was step one - deny they torture

and call it a few bad apples

[B Calm]

32. It shows how much they respect people in uniform!

[hoosier_lefty]

25. Brilliant !

I need money.
So I rob a bank.
Yes it might be illegal, but it worked!

We have always fought evil countries.
The British wouldn't give us the freedoms we wanted... that's evil
The Nazis killed an tortured...........................that's evil
The japanese killed and tortured.......................that's evil
The North Koreans with U.S.S.R. help killed and tortured,that's evil
The Vietnam with Chinas help killed and tortured........that's evil
China wrongly imprisoned and tortured there own people..that's evil
U.S.S.R spied on, imprisoned, killed, and tortured there own people....evil, bad, wrong

We're the good guys. We tortured and imprisoned outside of the conventions of war. perfectly fine?

[saltpoint]

27. Cheney is trying to do exactly as you say. For me, though, it's

definitely having the opposite effect.

I didn't like him much to begin with and like him a whole lot less nowadays.

[Norquist Nemesis]

28. Cheney is desperately trying to stay out of jail

and I'm hoping that DOJ goes to visit Scooter...if they haven't already.

[saltpoint]

30. Yes -- I do get the feeling that Cheney knows that wheels are turning

the machine and likely not in his favor.

[Marr]

29. It's not a good argument. Eventually, someone is going to publically point out

that rape works, if you just want to get someone pregnant-- or something like that-- in such a way that it sticks in the public consciousness. It's going to make the torture advocates look like the morally bankrupt criminals they are, once and for all-- and there's nowhere to take the argument after this sad low.

They're constructing a political defense here, of course, since they really don't have a legal one. They're trying to frame the issue in such a way that politicians will be afraid to act. They want to be able to blame any future terrorist attacks on the people who prosecuted the torturers.

[Skidmore]

31. They went one further this morning bu daring the "left"

to prove that borture is evil. Buchanan & Scarborough were hitting on a moral relativism argument today. Yeah, we did it, it worked (it did?), and you have to prove it was evil before you can try anyone.