This is really, really bad for "conservatives," and I don't have a good feeling about it

[Cary]

I despise these people. I really and truly despise them and I despise so much of what they're about. I do not feel sorry for them. This mess they're in with respect to torture is their own doing, and their own come-uppance.

This is the final nail in their coffin, but I do not feel good about it. Looking at the statutes and the precedents, it's pretty much a slam dunk against these people and when I say "these people" I'm talking about going all the way to the top. The stars are all lined up against them and they no longer have any powers to shield them like they did in the Plame affair. This is worse than Watergate. It's way, way worse.

I do not feel good about it because what comes next? We have indictments. We have trials. We have convictions.

Then what? Are we going to have pay a big price for this, somewhere along the line? It's really dawning on me. I knew these people were bad, but they are even worse than I thought.

[Donnachaidh]

1. It's only a slam dunk if we get someone in OUR Government to actually go AFTER them.

I'm not convinced that is going to happen. I certainly wish it would happen, but I don't see real signs of action coming from Obama or Holder. :shrug:

[Cary]

3. They aren't going to have a choice.

You'll see. They are not in control.

I don't come on this strong very often.

[Donnachaidh]

29. we said that about impeaching Bush and Cheney too.

That *happened* -- right?

We'll see more prosecutions in Europe before we see any of the politicians in Washington (and that's on both sides) decide to prosecute a former VP or P.

They aren't going to sling mud at one of their own privileged class. They'll go after everyone else, in order to avoid *besmirching* the office of the President.

[Cary]

31. I didn't say that about impeaching Bush and Cheney.

Maybe you did?

This is different, I think.

[Donnachaidh]

33. I don't think so.

The people who could have started the impeachment knew back then about the *enhanced* procedures. They COULD have started an impeachment process to bring the information out -- they did NOT.

The SAME people are in office this time around. I'm not holding my breath thinking they are going to do anything other than cover their own respective asses, as usual.

[Cary]

34. Ah, but the GOP had some power back then.

Now?

Don't get me wrong. Our guys are weasels too, to be sure. But more forces are behind them now, and not stopping them--not so much any more.

[Donnachaidh]

37. it's not about party at this point

You will not see ANY of these people TRULY do the "right thing" about torture. They'll play verbal *catch a pickle* games with the *notion* of doing something - all for the benefit of the MSM. But you WON'T see the perp walks, you won't see any of the officials who worked in the WH being booked for crimes.

Ain't gonna happen any time soon. Washington politicians are setting themselves up as the *royals* of this country, and in doing so they are making themselves *untouchable*.

[Towlie]

2. We'll pay a much bigger price if it doesn't happen.

[Cary]

4. Perhaps.

Though I understand and I'm sympathetic, I'm not so sure. You may be underestimating the cost if it happens.

I hope I'm wrong.

[Dogtown]

5. If Nixon hadn't been pardoned

the Bush cabal would have withered on the vine.


I doubt there will be top level prosecutions, but if we don't root them out they'll be back like fire-ants.

[Cary]

7. So what happens now? n/t

[Skidmore]

15. We don't turn into shrinking violets and handwringers.

For decades, Americans have refused to face crimes committed in our names and looked away from prosecuting our leaders for fear of national embarrassment. Those wasy of dealing with these types of issues have only compounded the excess and made it harder to stand on principal while subverting the law at the same time. Let the chips fall where the will. We either look forward with correcting these injustices or we will continue down the path where we were headed before. Now is not the time to lose heart.

[Dogtown]

39. Good reply to Carey's query, Skidmore

I feel the same, we must have the courage to uphold our convictions, or we deserve to be enslaved.

[bullimiami]

6. they had the total arrogance to believe they could act with impunity.

i guess time will tell if they were correct.

[Echo In Light]

8. Off the top of my head I'm inclined to think these fascists would sooner do something DRASTIC...

...rather than sink w/their ship.

Let's. Fucking. Hope. Not.

[Cary]

9. Well, their ship is sunk.

This isn't the IIPA, a piece of gobbly gook with no precedent. While it's true that Title 18 is a little vague, it has been interpreted. Waterboarding is torture. Period.

No way around it.

So how does Holder ignore this? Obama can't pardon.

This is going to be a mess.

[Echo In Light]

10. It's an ugly mess either way...but I'm more concerned about another false flag

Think about it...

[Cary]

12. Not sure what false flag. . .

but what has me worried is Cheney coming out. This isn't just the man, himself.

False flag, yes. But who? What? Why?

[Echo In Light]

17. A false flag is a self inflicted wound used to blame enemies and justify offensive action...

...that masquerades as 'retaliatory' in nature. In other words, measures that a 'beacon of democracy' would take in order to preserve its image even though it WANTS to embark on a course of naked, illegal aggression.

[get the red out]

18. Cheney has been almost threatening it

He keeps trying to say we are "less safe" with President Obama, neglecting the facts that the Bush Administration ignored a lot of terrorist warnings very early in that administration. And the neo-cons have such incredibly close ties with the Saudi's.

Cheney is almost doing Osama Bin Laden's job for him verbally lately. Trying to terrorize the American people in his interviews. Either trying to make us feel threatened or make us desire to let them off the hook if there is another terrorist attack and we all suddenly say President Obama is too "soft" because if he had tortured people that wouldn't have happened.

[Echo In Light]

22. Exact;ly...and that shit makes me nervous too...or he's bluffing

[get the red out]

11. This will sound strange

But I can't imagine anyone at the top levels of government being prosecuted for anything serious. I never expected it could possibly happen before the election and I can't imagine it happening now. I just can't wrap my mind around any prosecution for anything that isn't just an idiotic joke wasting time and money like Bill Clinton being impeached over sex just so the right can get in the news with their fake outrage between visits with their own girls/boys on the side. Marginal change and improvement and preservation of rights is all I can imagine possible. The only way the very powerful can ever be prosecuted for crimes is after a war that their country lost. Then the victors will prosecute because the criminals weren't their leaders, they were the loser's leaders. No way a country prosecutes it's own former leadership except after a civil war or coup. This is a pipe dream.

I would in no way be opposed to the truth coming out and justice being done as high as needed (Dick Cheney in an orange jump suit is an endearing fantasy image). I just can't imagine it possible so if we must move on and the Democrats try to improve things without prosecution, I won't be let down. Prosecution for heinous crimes like torture just can't happen above the level of "stooge", like the low level military folks that have already been tried.

Perhaps I am just too resigned to the impossibility of the powerful encountering justice. Maybe I am completely wrong, I am not opposed to being wrong in this case.

[Echo In Light]

14. Agreed. It would only be if they can't manufacture an acceptable illusion of "accountability" that..

I'd be more concerned of a false flag distraction. And I'm sure you're correct, and not one sacred cow will bite the dust. But who knows?

[ShortnFiery]

16. If ever Moral Courage was needed - second to stopping the invasion of Iraq - that time is NOW!

Dammit, if our legislators go belly up, we should vote for their next democratic primary challenger UNTIL we get the legislators who SERVE THE PEOPLE.

We, the people, must MAKE THEM do their damn jobs. :thumbsup:

[Cary]

19. How stupid are the sacred cows?

On the one hand I'd say very stupid.

On the other hand, I have a hard time believing them to be as stupid as they appear to be.

Did they really do this crap because of some ideological ideal of achieving a unitary executive?

[Echo In Light]

23. There's a lot of big questions therein that we can only speculate over

For what it's worth, however, not many of em lead to anything very good.

[get the red out]

30. Agree

I wonder what would happen if prosecution were to take place and truths emerged that even the average neo-con hating liberal weren't prepared to face?

[Beetwasher]

20. We've Never Seen Anything Like This Before

You bring up some good points. I too have a hard time wrapping my head around the very real possibility of former TOP officials, like possibly Cheney and Bush actually standing trials and actually being convicted of and paying the price for such crimes (IOW serving prison time). It's mind boggling because it's so unprecedented, and yet, if any situation demanded such a thing this one does. It's hard to fathom. It's nice to think it were possible, but it's just so unprecedented.

It really comes down to just how principled are the people in the current administration and how much fortitude do they really have to pursue this to it's VERY bitter end.

I think what we have is a truly unique and powerful, dangerous mixture of events; horrendous crimes committed by some of the most powerful, unprincipled people in the world, who are NOW out of power and whose fates are in the hands of some of the most seemingly principled people we've ever had now holding those seats and levers of power. Bushco. officials may be realizing that they really do face a very real threat from principled people who may be just as powerful as they are/were. What this true threat may make them capable of, well, who knows? Yes, frightening considering their lack of scruples and tendency to sink to the lowest levels of depravity w/ nary a concern.

It's truly a clash of titans and the moral, ethical, future implications- the stakes- have never been higher.

Interesting times indeed.

[ShortnFiery]

13. No Slack NOW! More than ever, we must ensure that the DOJ follows through with prosecutions.

:thumbsup:

No Mercy for those who ORDER torturer lest they resurface STRONGER during our grandchildren's lifetime.

[leftofthedial]

21. I'm not sure Holder *can* dunk.

He has weak knees.

[Cary]

25. It may be the other way around.

It may take the strong knees to avoid the dunk. I don't think he's in the driver's seat.

[Donnachaidh]

32. you keep saying this -- so who do YOU think is in the *driver's seat*?

Are you actually going to say the American People are in the driver's seat?

[Cary]

35. I'm seeing some heavies pushing this.

More than before. The wind is at our backs right now. There are a lot fewer excuses.

[Donnachaidh]

36. and those *heavies* might just be looking for face time on the tube.

:shrug:

[s-cubed]

24. Eric Holder: "You will be proud of your country."

I think those are the exact words Holder said to one of the protesters at the hearing yesterday. As Holder was leaving, one of the protesters asked him a question, and that was his answer. I am optimistic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5521110

[piratefish08]

26. It's time to sweep the SHIT out of DC - the alternative of taking no action would be worse.

ALL who were complicit need to be held accountable - Repubs and Dems alike.

[Cary]

27. “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

Voltaire.

[piratefish08]

28. Nice - I have to remember that one - it would apply equally as much to religion as politics. n/t

[boomerbust]

38. What's next?

Obama pardons the whole stinking lot of them.

[dgibby]

40. If they are convicted, then aren't we obligated to turn them over to the Hague?

[SoCalDem]

41. Trust me on this one.. It will all "pass"

and in about 15-20 years we will have another "something like this"..and we will start the hand-wringing and wailing all over..

Watergate was about the only time in recent history where "something was DONE" about it..but partisanship was not what it is now, and the press was a more honest participant in the event.

Back then we had 3 networks..no c-span..no internet..no cable screaming head shows..

we had Time, Newsweek, US News & World Report, and ABC, NBC & CBS..and daily newspapers galore..

After watergate republicans found their "voice" and vowed NEVER AGAIN...no matter how horrible the offense, they would lock arms and defend "their guy"..

Democrats, as a group are conciliators..consensus-builders

Republicans are bomb-throwers..obstructionists

It's in the DNA of the groups..

Investigations take a long time, and we have elections every 2 years, so many representatives don;t want to even be involved, lest they lose their next election...senators have more wiggle room, but they are always hunting for that holy grail of 60 , so they too have to be "careful"..

Presidents have fleeting chances to get their agenda passed because the congressional support is always waxing & waning..and they too, are always thinking about re-election, and then their legacy..

We keep having the same "problems" over and over because no one wants to risk their own political life to punish someone who is already gone..

[johnfunk]

42. Versailles... er, DC Media: "Bush lawyers OKed torture. That's bad news for Democrats."

Just go read Glenn Greenwald. Then read David Sirota.