Ok over the least 24 hours I have had two older white men defend

[nadinbrzezinski]

torture

The first one, well nephew is in the service so I suggested he looks nephew in the face and tell him he has no issue if he is captured and (insert enhanced interrogation technique here) is used on him

The second, just happened at the supermarket, started arguing that it was legal.

To which I answered, why if it was legal we hid this from the ICRC, the Congress, the courts, et al?

He kept following me, and arguing loudly... yep, he also used the proper canard, you know that liberals would have no clue since lib'ruls never serve

The DoD stickers on car provided a good shut the fuck up moment.

Point is folks, they are out en-force

And yes, they NEED to be confronted... and loudly so

And it goes without saying that these two had other priorities when their time to put on a uniform came

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Atta girl!

You provide an excellent example for us all!

And ain't this the truth:

And it goes without saying that these two had other priorities when their time to put on a uniform came


K&R

:yourock:

:patriot:

[hlthe2b]

2. I'd be careful... I'm guessing those who would condone torture...

are not averse to violence of any kind.... Confront with care...

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. They COUNT on that fear

and I'd say... those who do not confront evil, condone it

Seen real evil in my life... and I have to say this... these two gentlemen are but one face of it

That said, they are cowards, they'd not do what they condone

[hlthe2b]

10. Just sayin to confront in a crowd... don't let them follow you...

COmmon sense, even among we who do NOT condone evil... that we might live to do so another day....

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Public place, and they are getting loud in public spaces

why it is amusing to watch this

I counr on them going into underground mode in at most two weeks

[havocmom]

36. Yep. They count on their bully tactic keeping response down. They expect us to be polite

doormats.

We are not polite door mats and we are not afraid of bullies. When they all find that out (the hard way) they WILL go underground because bullies are basically cowards who will turn tail when confronted.

Good to hear about liberals calling loud mouth wingers on their crap in public. Eventually, they will figure out the get confronted instead of applause and they will rethink the tactic.

[One_Life_To_Give]

3. If torture was worth doing

it would be worth going to prison for having done it. So it's illegality is not a hindrance to it's employment in extreme circumstances.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. never mind that it does not work

torture is a tool of terror for the state, pure and simple

Not a tool for the intelligence professional

[OneGrassRoot]

4. Would they sodomize a 15-year-old boy?

That's what I'm going to ask.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. These two perhaps not, but they'd have no problem if this

led to actionable intelligence... never mind all evidence is fully against them

[MineralMan]

8. They might, if they could do it with impunity, but they won't admit it.

Just ask Rush Limpballs.

[Lex]

9. Same kind of people who would've defended the ovens at Dachau.

nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Of course, that goes without saying

but the lib'ruls don't serve and then he's confronted by DoD base stickers on my car

The gears started to slip... loudly so

That was the best part of this confrontation

Oh and I do know that soon they will start to deny that it ever happened, just as Dachau never happened.

:-)

Why we must make sure this is not forgotten

[Tempest]

13. Have them sign a petition to have Congress apologize to the Japanese soldiers we convicted

Of waterboarding U.S. soldiers during WWII.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. We killed a few... I don't think an apology will help

either

And what about folks who have been convicted in the past? Such as a Sheriff in the 1990s and his deputies, or US Troops?

[vadawg]

14. You do realize that the majority of people who orgs such as Nato have fought tend to treat

POW's from the US, UK etc rather badly as it is, and there already is a lot of torture even with the prohibitions internationally. Soldiers from western nations pretty much know they are gonna be mistreated and possibly tortured if captured right from the outset, in fact it was always thought that upon capture all plans would be changed to take into account the use of torture and interrogation. I dont think the US using waterboarding etc is going to change the way her soldiers are treated as im pretty sure the loonies were partial to beheading etc beforehand.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. So the argument is since I don't know the Taliban (please do show me

when exactly they signed the conventions... I'll wait with baited breath for that one), are going to do this, we should too?

That is a very moral (not) standard to use.

And as is, torture does not work... we know that. Getting really chummy with your prisoners and developing rapport does

[vadawg]

21. not really want to start this, but physical cohercion works on some people that other methods dont

for some people talk can be induced by the fear of what my happen, others talk for food, others its physical discomfort, others pain. Getting chummy and developing rapport is a good method, but other methods work as well. All im saying is that people such as the taliban etc dont care if we use rigerous interrogations or not, they are still going to do what is their want with captured NATO troops.

[Tempest]

23. Other methods don't work as well, in the vast many cases not at all

And that's what some of the torturers are saying.

There is no evidence of useful information coming from any of the suspects tortured.

[vadawg]

25. ive got to disagree to an extent, seldom have i seen the excesses work

but a lot of times the bad cop, good cop method works, with a physical softening of a prisoner ie physical duress followed by rrapport building.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Do bad cops include things like attaching wires to testicles? No

does the bad cop routine include waterboarding? No

Does the bad cop routine include raping, methodically so of eleven year olds in front of their parents? No

Does it include removal of... nails? no

Does it include the use of tools to sodomize your suspect? No

Does it include using whips? No

Does it include sleep deprivation? No

Does it include using lashes? No

I could go on

In fact, the few times it has, the cases have been thrown out of court and the cops have done hard time

This is what we are talking about here... not the bad cop routine that TV shows to you during TV shows

To be crass, get your head out of your ass because you are comparing the proverbial apple to the proverbial orange

[vadawg]

37. I used the good cop, bad cop thing as i thought it would make you understand culturally

i wasnt talking about cops, i am talking in gathering intel during a war, also you are stating that the US never got an intel from these prisoners, but using methods as i said above have worked in many situations in the past and for that reason are still used in many parts of the world and will long after we are gone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. We didn't, that's the point

Zubaida was singing like the proverbial bird BEFORE we started the torture

He clamped down

By the by, the rapport building and all that crap was developed during that other war, called WW II, you think we understood the Japanese too well?

We didn't tough them... but we got actionable intel

We got actionable intel from these folks UNTIL we tortured

READ THE FUCKING DATA?

Now if you have such a hard on... go on and enlist

I hope you are never captured, and if you are your guards have a little more sense of what works.... and what doesn't

What we have done, doesn't

So leave the morality, in practical terms it does not work... period

[Tempest]

51. It's amazing how people continue to miss that

He shut up BECAUSE of the torture.

And when the torture became too much, he lied his ass off and nothing useful came out of him since.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. I will, experts, you know the folks who do this for a living

will tell you this... rapport worked very well to get actual intel from prisoners in WW II, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War One

You know the people who train at places like Fort Huachuca

Others who do this for a living as interrogators for the FBI, your local police, you know people who do this professionally

We have gotten zero actionable intelligence since we went there.

All we gotten is the ever so popular I'll tell you what I think you want to hear to make it stop

I used to be a Red Cross Medic... one of my side jobs at one time was gathering information from SURVIVORS and this is the conclusion... torture is a tool of terror for the state. PERIOD

Not a tool of intelligence...

[vadawg]

28. once again i disagree with you, a capable interrogator will use what info they have to ascertain if

you are giving factual info, theres a lot more into gaining intel than just sitting around and building a rapport. Humans are all different, cultures are different, what works with one person wont neccassarily work with other people. Plus what you may consider torture, the next person may not think its torture, so what would be acceptable other than giving a prisoner cake and tea.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. We have gotten ZERO actionable intelligence

ZERO

Get that through your head

And things like what I listed in the post above IS torture

[kestrel91316]

30. My parents also taught me when I was very little that TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT.

[kestrel91316]

26. My parents taught me to NEVER hit first, from the time I was tiny.

I don't think they'd buy the very IMMATURE viewpoint that one should torture first because you just "knew" the other guy was gonna do it.

Such an attitude causes one to lose ALL moral high ground.

[vadawg]

32. not trying to pick a fight, but the moral high ground is easy for us sitting at home

but sometimes when the poop is in the oven moral high ground goes out of the window. It is an inevitable casualty of War.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. So you will not mind when this is done to a US soldier?

don't be too outrage when little Jimmy is taken out in to the cold and raped... after which they remove every one of his nails, in both feet and hands.

Oh I guarantee he will confess to whatever they want him to confess too as well

[vadawg]

39. you honestly believe that holding the high moral ground will stop US soldiers being abused

if the US wants to have rules, thats good but its not going to mean that all her enemies will abide by them. Plus you seem to miss the point about interrogations, most times a confession is not what is looked for, you are interrogating to substantiate other intel you have, whether by the prisoners omittment or confirmation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. History is your friend

before you burn the books look at the historical evidence because it has

During WW II it saved lives

In gulf war one, it saved lives

Now go enlist, and try to udnerstand

[vadawg]

43. why enlist, i got 18 years doing what i am talking about, and 5 years after as a cop

using the rapport building method, as i said everyone is different, and i would not use the same rules in combat as i would in a criminal interrogation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. And you never went there... GOOD

congrats...

You then KNOW exactly what the fuck we are talking about

And you know how despicable is to justify torture

By the way, the Army Manual doesn't permit it, and it has precious little to do with the Conventions and you know that

[vadawg]

50. i dont know what the manuals say, ive never read them,

but to say that no physical excersion ever works is not true, as ive stated every person is different, for some the shame of capture (japanese) is enough to loosen tongues, others its religious taboos, others rapport, others physical duress, it all depends on the individual and the type of info sought.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. So that was NOT your MOS

I see, and why did you leave after 18? Especially now?

As I said, what you do as a cop is worlds apart from this.

TRY TO GET THIS

[vadawg]

54. MOS??? dont know what this means, i left due to injuries suffered

took me two years to fully recover, being a cop isnt any different when it comes to getting info, you need to figure out peoples buttons and push the correct ones, but as ive said every person you talk to is different, no method works with everyone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. You do not know what MOS means?

translation to the poser in your

MIlitary Occupational Specialty

[Tempest]

55. You don't know what you're talking about

And your years as a cop are completely irrelevant to the issue.

If anyone needs to read this, it's you:

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7096

[vadawg]

56. no actually as a cop i have to question different people evry day

so i see that what works with one person dosent work with others. As to knowing what i talk about, are you really saying you dont realise that everyones locker has a different lock, and that different keys are needed to open them. As i said from experience everyone can be unlocked we all just have different keys that need to be applied.

[Tempest]

57. Torture was never an option for you

So again, you don't know what you're talking about.

[vadawg]

58. actually it has been an option, something i was trained to do and resist

though they tell us that as soon as we are captured they will assume that we have talked as we are not expected to hold out as in the movies. I think you have no idea what you are talking about, or you are missing the point i am making about torture not always being a option that works but to state it never works is false. it all depends on the intel you are corroborating.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. You are a poser, you do not even know what MOS means

ANY active duty and retired knows what MOS means

I have my doubts you are even a cop

In fact, at the end of BOOTCAMP, you are assigned an MOS

[MindPilot]

16. You got it going on today...how'd that second one start?

inquiring minds and all...

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Was in line waiting to pay and guy started going over how this was crap

since we do it to our guys it has to be legal.

I have a very low tolerance for idiocy

:-)

[mmonk]

19. Good work. Wish I could have been there when he saw your stickers.

I plan the next time I run into somebody like that, I'm going to ask them what information was obtained from the screams of the children at Abu Ghraib.

[Shell Beau]

20. I always prided myself on the fact that we were the country that just

didn't go there. We were above torture. Obviously I was naive. But I haven't felt like we were that country anymore for a long time.

[OutNow]

27. Education re: torture

The very first time I heard someone explain why she hoped that Obama's policies would fail and ask why I would support a "liberal" like Obama my reply was that he will stop the use of torture. That shut the republican up fast. That was in January right after Obama took office. In the last couple of days I have had a conservative friend try to explain how I should just move on and shouldn't dwell on the past and that we didn't really TORTURE, just a few questionable techniques. It looks like the right is beginning their campaign to excuse torture and their followers are falling in line.

That's why we have to put Bush and his crime family on trial and have a detailed description of what happened and who is responsible. I remember when I was a kid when Eichmann was captured in South America and put on trial for his war crimes. Every night on nightly news they covered the story in some detail. I think many people of my age received a lifelong education on torture and genocide from this trial. It's time to educate a new generation about torture and the consequences of these actions.

[Froward69]

22. something just occurred to me...

a group of should get together and have "water-boarding rides". set em up outside mega churches, VFW posts, or even your local GOP headquarters. The corners in heavy GOP neighborhoods is a must.
have each participant sign waivers and have some fun. with the guarantee that if afterward they still feel water boarding is not torture they get their $5 bucks back...

of course while they are down, you continue until they say Water boarding is torture... even if it's a false confession you still keep the money.;-) :sarcasm:

[adiabatic]

33. I'm missing something here...how are their age and race relevant?

??

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. They didn't serve and I have yet to see

not that It will not happen, somebody else from a different race defending this crap

In fact, if I were in Hawaii I know one business owner who probably would... and probably would loose quite a bit of his bidness over it

He is not white either, but his bidness are military... and have little patience for this

[adiabatic]

40. Now I understand.

...

[dem629]

45. Because they're old and white and men.

You know, the root of all evil!

:rofl:

[adiabatic]

59. Yeah, I'm all three...guess I might as well just shoot myself.

:shrug:

[vadawg]

60. lol i thought it was old white men with guns

[laureloak]

42. Here we go again. Why try to make it into a "racial" opinion?

[ejpoeta]

44. well, especially if they FOLLOW YOU AROUND you need to give them what for.

they seem to really need to convince themselves as much as they are convincing you. good on you.

[dem629]

46. Someone in the supermarket just came up to you and started talking about torture?

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. He started ranting when he saw story in paper

I tend to have little patience for that

[dem629]

49. That's weird. And he followed you around the store?

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Yeah, sometimes they do

made me a little nervous, but hey... confronting the idiots has a certain level of threat

That said, he did to the parking lot

He left once he saw DoD stickers

And now that I think about this, first time in a few years I have a winger do that

[Mike 03]

63. God, I love your posts. Kick and rec to the sky...

There is such moral clarity and specificity in your posts, Nadin, I can't help but admire your moral tenacity and contribution to this forum. Day after day, you enlighten many of us.

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. Two data points? I'm sold. Launch the generalization bandwagon!

People who are okay with torture should be ostracized. It is counterproductive to use it as an excuse to stereotype.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Point one absolutely and why making fun of them and socially embarrassing

them needs to be done

Point two...

So far these have been older white men... as I said, I know a gentleman in hawaii who is a fellow traveller of these idiots, he is not white.

[TBF]

66. If they are stupid enough to confront me they are going to first get the

question "when and where did you serve?" and if we can get past that (which I doubt) they will get a lecture on what it is like to live with a father who was completely disabled from the VietNam war and what it is like to take care of someone like that for their entire life. And that's not even one who was tortured...

Why is it that so many of these assholes never served, yet run around talking about how great it is to wage war and torture others?

[Retired AF Dem]

67. If it would of been two black men

would you have said it? Or would of you just said two men? I'm tired of catching shit from racists for me being white and I have never given a person a hard time due to race. I guess you dont have a problem with it though. Yes I'm calling you out you racist.