I'm astonished that we are even having this dicusssion in the 21st centruy

[MindPilot]

Is torture OK or not?

That is a question that shouldn't even have to be asked let alone answered.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

1. No kidding. nt

[ixion]

2. agree 100%

it's a stupid, backasswards-looking discussion, and I can't believe that people are even considering it.

So much for "civilization"

[midnight]

3. Good for you. Time to set the record straight via prosecutions.

That would settle this confusion.

[Ready4Change]

4. Total agreement. Recommended.

The fact this is considered at all, much less argued for from some corners, astounds me.

[hootinholler]

5. Considering that Washington set the standard in the 18th Century.

It is indeed astonishing.

-Hoot

[vadawg]

6. heres a question i havent seen asked, what is torture

i am sure that everyone has a different definition outside of the official one, for some its sleep deprivation, others would say that using temperature differences is torture. Others would say that using harsh language, or indulging in cultural biases is torture. i would interested to know what Duer's think is torture and what is acceptable.

[annabanana]

7. To define it is to allow it.

There is no limit to the human imagination. If we outlaw shoving glowing red quarters into the eyes.. someone will assume it's ok to shove glowing red dimes...

Read this:

Torture is not wrong because someone else thinks it is wrong or because others, in retaliation for torture by Americans, may torture Americans.

It is the torture that is wrong.

Torture is wrong because it inflicts unspeakable pain upon the body of a fellow human being who is entirely at our mercy.

The tortured person is bound and helpless. The torturer stands over him with his instruments. There is no question of "unilateral disarmament," because the victim bears no arms, lacking even the use of the two arms he was born with. The inequality is total.

To abuse or kill a person in such a circumstance is as radical a denial of common humanity as is possible.
It is repugnant to learn that one's country's military forces are engaging in torture. It is worse to learn that the torture is widespread. It is worse still to learn that the torture was rationalized and sanctioned in long memorandums written by people at the highest level of the government. But worst of all would be ratification of this record by a vote to confirm one of its chief authors to the highest legal office in the executive branch of the government.

Torture destroys the soul of the torturer even as it destroys the body of his victim.

The boundary between humane treatment of prisoners and torture is perhaps the clearest boundary in existence between civilization and barbarism.
Whether the elected representatives of the people of the United States are now ready to cross that line is the deepest question before the Senate as it votes on the nomination of Alberto Gonzales.

January 21, 2005
(from What is Wrong With Torture by Johathan Schell)

[vadawg]

14. My question stems from discussions ive had were people say that denying family visits

is torture, or not giving prisoners specific diets is torture, the views of people range the spectrum when it comes to what is torture, does it have to be physical, or mental or a combination of both.

[annabanana]

16. people whose views range that far have very little understanding of torture. . .n/t

[nichomachus]

17. Those people are using the same tactic as the prolifers

who call a tiny clump of cells a "baby." It creates a logical fallacy and derails discussion.

However, the matter of diets is at least controversial. Suppose you had an observant Jewish or Muslim prisoner. You had all sorts of food available, but you served them only pork. Eventually, their choice would be between starvation and violating a core belief they held very closely. That's very controversial and some people could argue it's unnecessarily coercive.

We used to take a different attitude than we currently have with people with whom we were "at war."

I was just reading an interesting article about a Japanese submarine that entered an Australian harbor during WW2 and blew up a troop ship with a great loss of life. The Australians eventually destroyed the submarine -- but they buried the Japanese sailors with full military honors.

But, that was when people had a sense of honor -- something a lot of people today have lost. Oddly enough, it's the people who claim to be conservative who have the least amount of honor and who do the most to destroy it in others.

[unblock]

15. at the margins, it may be a bit like pornography -- i can't define it, but i know it when i see it

(justice potter stewart)

but some things are not at the margins. placing someone in a position to fear a real and imminent violent death or bodily harm is unequivocably torture. putting you naked in reach or in near reach of a vicious dog is unequivocably torture.

morally, the other things you mention are torture, as there's no reason other than to cause physical discomfort (presumably in the hope that some good somehow arises from this) but where it crosses the line into techniques that ought to be illegal is not clear.

generally speaking, though, if a confession extracted using bright lights is inadmissible, there's at least an argument that that's torture, albeit hardly on the scale of watereboarding.

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. Well, it is (in a way) a discussion we've never had before.

It was decided that BAD GUYS can't torture, in WWII. That was pretty well settled.

In this country we decided that COPS and PRISON GUARDS can't torture - the result is Miranda, the elimination of the 3rd degree, and the prison expose that prompted the Redford film 'Brubaker'.

But we've never really decided that GOOD GUYS can't torture BAD GUYS who are ENEMIES.

Sad, isn't it.

[spanone]

9. makes me wonder where we stand on the evolutionary scale

[closeupready]

10. Esp. when even leaders among Bush's party acknowledge it was torture.

n/t

[mmonk]

11. Shows how far we have fallen intellectually and morally.

[indepat]

12. It's astonishing because it's nearly impossible to fathom the degree of depravity

present in the typical 'puke mindset. :P

[cali]

13. human nature hasn't changed.

[damntexdem]

18. It wasn't asked as a question -- the GOP asserted it as 'truth.'

The real question is what the U.S. is going to do about it.

[CrispyQ]

19. I'm more horrified that some republicans & pundits are discussing if torture is effective or not.

Seems they've already answered the question of if it's ok.

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:
:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:
:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

What the fuck?!

[bvar22]

20. Torture is NOT OK.....

...even when you have a note from your lawyer (OLC).

There is no such thing a Torturing "In Good Faith".

Where do these people come from?