Oklahoma City bomber Terry Nichols claims prison diet causes "constipation, bleeding, hemorrhoids"

[Amerigo Vespucci]

Terry Nichols's Gut-Wrenching Pain
Constipated Oklahoma City bomber in high-fiber prison diet bid

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0424092nichols1.html



APRIL 24--Terry Nichols, the domestic terrorist who teamed up with Timothy McVeigh to murder 168 people, 19 of them children, in the Oklahoma City bombing, is unhappy with his prison diet, which has left him struggling with "chronic constipation, bleeding, hemorrhoids" due to a lack of insoluble fiber. Remarkably, a federal judge yesterday rejected Nichols's bid for a preliminary injunction against the Bureau of Prisons, though a lawsuit filed last month by the 54-year-old killer remains pending. As seen on the following pages, the complaint filed by Nichols--who is imprisoned at the "Supermax" lockup in Florence, Colorado--contends that "God created mankind to consume unrefined whole foods" that work "in a synergistic way to keep one's body (i.e. God's holy temple) in good health to ward off various diseases." Nichols, who stresses that he is "not a terrorist," helpfully included a proposed diet that prison officials should serve (or make available at the Florence commissary). The mass murderer, it seems, is a big fan of Kellogg's bran products. To support his legal claim, Nichols has rounded up declarations from six fellow Florence inmates, each of whom is supposedly beset with assorted digestive issues. Eric Rudolph, whose bombs killed victims at abortion clinics and the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta, reports that the "refined and highly processed" food served to killers like him causes "constipation, gas, and stomach cramps." Like Nichols, Rudolph believes "our bodies" are "sacred and should be treated as such."

[lamp_shade]

1. Oh... Saints preserve us!

[polichick]

2. I don't doubt it.

[havocmom]

3. If he and his fellow prisoners had treated others' bodies as temples too,

they could eat what they damned well wanted.

[8 track mind]

48. well judging by his size, his body is no longer a temple,

but an amusement park for some of the 'bigger' inmates

[Berry Cool]

4. My heart bleeds for the poor guy.

Here's a pure, unrefined food he can try: strychnine. Or how about cyanide?

[AngryAmish]

85. You know, there is a big debate going on about torture during the Bush administration

Yet here we have a torture/murder advocate, right here at DU. Funny.

[tabasco]

117. Can you torture yourself?

You are babbling incoherently, again.

[Joanne98]

5. I believe it.

[AlBrattOnline]

28. terry nichols

could be this man is having a case of the bad-boy bowel
syndrome. will somebody please call the prison rectal
specialist? preparation-h should do it. 

[Aqaba]

6. Somehow I don't think the diet is causing that...

...he is after all in, 'Federal-Pound-Me-In-The-Ass' prison.

[pipoman]

22. Actually, not...

Administrative Maximum Security in Florence allows for only 30 minutes per day in a common area with one other prisoner, the other 23 1/2 hours are solitary.

[rucky]

7. I think he's confusing showertime with mealtime. n/t

[bluestateguy]

8. OK some people should be waterboarded

Namely white male right wing anti-government extremists---who have already been convicted of mass murders.

[ovidsen]

9. I consider myself to be a compassionate guy...

So, if you're gonna lock somebody up for the rest of his life (with the implication that his life be prolonged as much as possible so he can truly comprehend the enormity of his crime) feed him something that agrees with him.

No, not kobe steak, crab legs, Maine lobster, etc. Something that will mean he spends less time on the pot and more time mulling over what an evil thing he did, and what an evil person he is.

Special K, peanut butter sandwiches, macaroni & cheese, tuna casserole, and big piles of spinach come to mind. I think that would satisfy all the major food groups.

Oklahoma city bomber Terry Nichols' demands certainly comes to mind when I see the complaints from Atlanta Olympics bomber and anti-abortionist killer Eric Rudolph (also a supermax inmate), whose bombs killed victims at abortion clinics and the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta. He claims that the "refined and highly processed" food served to killers like him causes "constipation, gas, and stomach cramps." Like Nichols, Rudolph believes "our bodies" are "sacred and should be treated as such."

Gee, wonder what they think about the people they killed, and the people who survived their attacks with serious permanent injuries?

Probably not much.

[SmileyRose]

98. I'm with you

generic brand oatmeal can't be that expensive and Kroger can afford to sell their whole wheat bread at $1 a loaf on sale -- I have no doubt a supplier can be found for cheapo whole wheat bread.


Nichol is a fucking jackass -- but we have a whole host of people in our prisons that we'd really like to have as productive citizens at some point. I don't even know anyone who's ever been in jail, let alone prison - but if the diet is a problem it can't be that hard to fix.

[JVS]

115. I also agree.

I see no harm in letting him get more fiber.

[zbdent]

10. waaaaaaahhhhhh ...

someone blow up a building with him inside the danger zone ... see how much he complains then ... and see if he considers that he should have stopped his compadre ...

[Sebastian Doyle]

11. Gee Terry, maybe if you had grown vegetables with your fertilizer instead of building truck bombs

You could have eaten all the high fiber foods you wanted. Too bad, asshole.

[Ian David]

12. All he did is what Glenn Beck would have wanted him to do. n/t

[johnfunk]

13. ...and "fertilizer bombs cause lacerations, contusions, death." Sockinit, terrorist!

</rant>

[northernlights]

14. what about the sacred bodies of the people you blew up?

Maybe you should have thought of *that* before you assisted your friend on his mass-murdering rampage. :nopity:

But please *do* keep up the public whining. Maybe it will serve as a deterrent to any other budding mass murderers. Get them thinking about their own sacred bodies, in case they are totally unable to care about anybody else's. :shrug:

[AnnieBW]

15. Send him to Gitmo!

He is a terrorist, after all.

[RamboLiberal]

16. Maybe you should've thought about this before you teamed

up with McVeigh! Deal with it Terry. I'm usually against the death penalty but I'd sure make an exception in your case. I'd like to see you strapped in the next building that is to be imploded. Let you face the horror you and McVeigh imposed on the people including kids in that day care in OKC! And they can strap Rudolph on the column next to you. He too didn't give a damn about people in or near the abortion clinics or that poor lady just going to the Olympics festivities!

:nopity:

[rcrush]

17. So does non-prison food.

Its all poison.

[imdjh]

18. Florida apparently offers two choices- regular or vegetarian

Jewish inmates who follow strict religious diets at Florida prisons are no longer provided meals in line with their beliefs. Muslims must now eat vegan food to satisfy their religious requirements.
The Corrections Department has ended the Jewish Dietary Accommodation Program, which provided kosher meals to not only Jews, but to Muslims as well, because the state prison system does not offer halal food. Cost — and fairness — were cited as factors.

"We have 100 faiths represented by DOC inmates, so it would be impossible to satisfy everyone's preferences and unfair to do it for one group and not another," agency spokeswoman Gretl Plessinger said. "We just have to look at what our mission is and what's best for our overall department and the overall population of inmates in our system instead of a smaller group."

The department has suspended use of pork products in an attempt to appease religious adherents and will continue to serve vegetarian and vegan meals. It said many Jews and Muslims could choose the vegan option, which is free of any animal products, to adhere to their faiths.

But for the strict followers of kosher and halal diets, it is far from ideal.

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,294349,00.html

Dietary and religious preferences are one of those things reserved for people who don't commit crimes, IMO.

[ck4829]

19. If you can't do the time (And can't eat the lousy food), then don't do the crime

[TexasObserver]

20. Maltreatment of prisoners is anathema to our way of justice.

These maximum security prisons are inhumane by design, which is unfortunate.

He's right about the food. The body needs grains, and not that sorry excuse for bread that is bleached white.

His crime is immaterial to his rights as a prisoner.

[NutmegYankee]

25. Hey, he's still alive to feel constipation and such.

168 people, including children, are not.

[TexasObserver]

29. That's completely irrelevant.

As I said, he's entitled to humane treatment, and a diet that lacks fiber is not humane. The effects are predictable, and those are the effects of which this prisoner complains.

It doesn't matter what he did, or how long he is in prison.

Do you understand and acknowledge that progressive persons believe prisoners are entitled to humane treatment, no matter what they did to get there? Or, do you agree with the Michael Savage - Glenn Beck - Rush Limbaugh philosophy that imprisonment should include maltreatment of prisoners?

[NutmegYankee]

34. I do not agree that he is being treated inhumanly.

And you can stuff the anal cyst loaded straw man argument. Poor people across this country are forced to avoid starvation by eating these "highly processed" foods. A mass murdering terrorist should not, and is not, required to receive better treatment than families in poverty. 100% Whole grains, and fresh fruits is a fucking luxury for most of the poor around the world. He gets a diet that meets his human needs, and that is all he should get.

You know what else cause hemorrhoids and constipation - sitting on your ass all day. Surely you don't suggest we let him out of prison because he whines that it is maltreatment?

[TexasObserver]

38. Then you agree with Limbaugh, Savage and Beck.

When it comes to prisoners in America. Congratulations.

[NutmegYankee]

41. Oh wow - Your name calling really hurts. What a joke. n/t

[TexasObserver]

43. It's not name calling. It's accurately identifying your beliefs with theirs.

One of the most fundamental of progressive values is the protection of prisoners from inhumane treatment and an opposition to the death penalty.

Like support of women's rights, minority rights, and gay rights, prisoners rights are part of the progressive mindset. If you disagree with most progressives on that point, and do agree with the three conservative radio and tv commentators I mentioned, that's a fact, not a name calling.

[NutmegYankee]

47. BULLSHIT!

- the man is not getting starved
- the man is getting the vitamins he needs
- the man is getting the nutrients he needs

What he is not getting is a special diet that many regular Americans cannot afford to eat, and have to live without. His treatment is not inhumane. No health care - that is inhumane. Mr. itchy ass on the other hand gets free Prep H.

[MajorChode]

111. We're not talking about beating a prisoner with rubber hoses

Smart people pick and choose their battles. If you have chosen to pick your battle for "prisoners(sic) rights" on the anal health of Terry Nichols, then I would say you have most likely chosen poorly.

[TexasObserver]

112. We are talking about basic health needs.

You don't get it. Fine.

[MajorChode]

114. Now that really hurts

Getting banished from your read list because I simply can't share your compassion for Terry Nichol's asshole really has dealt a serious blow to my morale and overall mental health. I'm not really sure how I'm going to recover from this. I wish you would seriously reconsider.

[Clintonista2]

58. So it's only maltreatment if they die?

I guess America doesn't torture afterall!

[NutmegYankee]

60. What the heck were you replying to?

You must have read that post completely wrong. And where does torture come in? Holy Crap, lets shut down McDonald's before they water board another family!! My post was a blow off to the maltreatment BS. The man is not being mistreated.

Americans eat an average of 5 to 14 grams of fiber daily,* which is short of the 20 to 35 grams recommended by the American Dietetic Association. Both children and adults often eat too many refined and processed foods from which the natural fiber has been removed.

A low-fiber diet also plays a key role in constipation among older adults, who may lose interest in eating and choose foods that are quick to make or buy, such as fast foods, or prepared foods, both of which are usually low in fiber. Also, difficulties with chewing or swallowing may cause older people to eat soft foods that are processed and low in fiber.

I don't see the cruel or unusual. Seems like a normal American diet to me. If he has problems, hand him some .

[madeline_con]

31. Actually, his rights were revoked when he became a prisoner.

[TexasObserver]

32. Nonsense. All prisoners in America have rights.

As progressives, we believe in prisoners' rights.

[madeline_con]

33. This progressive believes the dirtbag should have received the DP.

Fuck him and the horse he rode in on.

[Joe the Revelator]

37. This progressive agrees

And I don't like being told what I should or should not feel as a "progressive".

Go cry yourself a river, texas observer, over this poor terrorist's diet. I won't be joining you.

[TexasObserver]

39. Opposing the death penalty is a progressive value.

If you like the death penalty, that's on you.

[madeline_con]

40. Some people deserve death. That transends party affiliation.

[NutmegYankee]

42. Didn't you hear! He's the only true progressive...

and anyone that disagrees with him is a Limbaugh, beck, and Savage Fan!

[MajorChode]

121. Somehow I never imagined the litmus test for a progressive would be over Terry Nichol's asshole

[pipoman]

124. ....

:spray: :rofl:

[TexasObserver]

46. I disagree. The death penalty is anathema to a civilized society.

[Telly Savalas]

64. While it's true that some people deserve death,

the issue is that it's unrealistic to expect that the state can administer the death penalty fairly and without error.

[Bill McBlueState]

103. not being a progressive also transcends party affiliation

:shrug:

[Clintonista2]

62. Please do not post unless you understand what you're talking about.

Thanks!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

56. He's an attention seeking asshole.

The fact he's dropping Rudolph's name as well is just him taking a opportunity to spit in his victims' faces, as well as all those who were terrorized by the right-wing extremists of the 90's.

[Matariki]

70. Thank you. I'm glad there are a least a few people on DU that aren't bloodthirsty sadists.

[TexasObserver]

73. I'm happy to be on the side with Gandhi, MLK, and Jesus.

And not of the side of Limbaugh, Savage and Beck when it comes to treatment of prisoners. Their incarceration is their punishment.

These vengeful rationales some use are the very reason police feel they can maltreat just about anyone, and the very reason our country engaged in torture the past 8 years. Some fail to understand that the job of civilization is to be civilized, and that means not having a culture driven by revenge - a base emotion that typically drives right wingers, not progressives.

[Matariki]

92. Very well put.

I wish people posting on this thread would take a moment from being reactive and ponder your wise words.

[TexasObserver]

101. This thread have been very valuable.

I suggest you do as I do, and put on Ignore all those posters whose lives and thoughts never progressed beyond the need for brutal vengeance. You won't miss their comments. The more you put on ignore, the more sane the board becomes. If you place on ignore those whose comments you deem unprogressive, DU quickly becomes a site where you can read progressives again, without reading all the hate speech that is so typical of non progressive sites.

[MajorChode]

126. I see there is room for the narrowminded on DU after all

Ya gotta love those who choose to put their head in the sand rather than face the opposition of a dissenting viewpoint. I guess he just couldn't stand the possibility that perhaps Terry Nichols is just filing a frivolous lawsuit (as thousands of other prisoners do with their eternity of idle time), and perhaps there are gray areas between coddling Terry Nichols' asshole and condemning all prisoners to abuse and neglect. It must really suck to be so small minded.

[Obamanaut]

74. He eats, he drinks, he sleeps, he breathes - his victims do not.

He gets medical care, dental care. He has a place to sleep, and has clothes to wear. His punishment is being locked away from friends, family, freedom of choice in his activities. His creature needs are being met.

All over this board we read about "poor" people who have diets that cause obesity. I imagine these people are likewise suffering from various diet-related ailments. For these folks I can feel a bit of sympathy, for Terry, not so much. You buys your ticket, you takes your ride.

[KamaAina]

21. What an asshole.

:evilgrin:

[brentspeak]

23. If you can't eat the slime, don't do the crime.

[Forkboy]

24. I feel for him.

But I just can't reach.

[lucretia54]

26. Which leads us back again to the subject of torture...

A group of people who propose going back to a natural diet of unrefined foods, recently wrote to the future President Obama about the food being offered to those imprisoned in Illinois State Prisons:

AN OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT-ELECT BARACK OBAMA
From Sally Fallon Morell, President, the Weston A. Price Foundation


November 16, 2008

Dear Mr. Obama,

Congratulations on your recent victory in the American presidential elections. As the
president-elect, you have many issues to consider as you prepare to take office.

One issue I would urge you to focus on concerns a grave injustice taking place in the
prisons of your home state, namely, a prison diet that is slowly killing the inmates assigned to the
Illinois Department of Corrections. This is a diet based largely on soy protein powder and soy
flour. As you stated on last night’s 60 Minutes Program, America does not condone torture.
I think you would agree that what is happening in the Illinois prisons is a form of torture.

Soy protein and soy flour are toxic, especially in large amounts. The US Food and
Drug Administration lists 288 studies on its database showing the toxicity of soy. Numerous
studies show that soy consumption leads to nutrient deficiencies, digestive disorders, endocrine
disruption and thyroid problems.

Even the most ardent supporters of soy, such as Dr. Mark Messina, warn against
consuming more than about 20 grams of soy protein per day. But the inmates in Illinois are
getting upwards of 100 grams per day—beef and chicken by-product mixtures containing 60-70
percent soy, fake soy meats and cheese, even soy added to baked goods. The soy products are
produced by Archer Daniel Midlands, which contributed heavily to the campaign of Rod
Blagojevich. The change from a diet based largely on beef to one based on soy happened in
2003, when Mr. Blagojevich began his first term as governor.

The national office of the Weston A. Price Foundation has heard from dozens of
inmates begging for help. Almost all suffer from serious digestive disorders, such as diarrhea
or painful constipation, vomiting, irritable bowel syndrome and sharp pains in the digestive tract.
One reason for these problems is the high oxalic acid content of soy—no food is higher in oxalic
acid than soy protein isolate, which can contain up to 630 milligrams per serving, at least six
times higher than the amount found in typical diets.

Oxalic acid is associated with kidney stones, but the sharp crystal deposits can form in
almost every tissue in the body--in the heart where they can stop electrical signals; in the
bones where they can displace bone marrow cells, leading to anemia or immune deficiency; in


the brain where they can impair the transmission of signals; and in the skin where they can cause
fibromyalgia.

Other problems reported by the inmates include acne, hair loss, depression, lethargy,
allergies, heart arrhythmias, passing out after soy consumption, frequent infections and constant
feeling of cold. Many of these are symptoms of low thyroid function. The estrogen-like
compounds in soy are known to depress thyroid function.

When the prisoners seek medical treatment, they are told that soy does not cause the
problems they are experiencing. Even those who vomit or pass out immediately after eating soy
cannot get an order for a soy-free diet. They are told: “If the soy disagrees with you, don’t eat it.
Buy food from the commissary.” And since most of the inmates cannot afford to purchase food
from the commissary, they are faced with a choice of serious health problems or starvation.
Several have had sections of their colons removed when a simple return to a nutritious, soy-free
diet would have solved the problem. One inmate who passes out whenever he consumes soy was
given a pacemaker.

Several inmates have filed lawsuits. One inmate has been subjected to illegal and
life-threatening retaliatory actions as a result of his filing two lawsuits claiming inadequate
medical care. Pro bono legal help is urgently needed for these cases.

According to law, prisoners are entitled to “nutritionally adequate food” (Ramos v
Lamm, 639.2d 559, 1980). According to Illinois law, “Infliction of unnecessary suffering on
prisoner by failure to treat his medical needs is inconsistent with contemporary standards of
decency and violates the Eighth Amendment” (Key Note 7. Criminal Law 1213).

The justification for the switch from beef to soy is to save money. But according to one
court case, “A lack of financing is not a defense to a failure to satisfy minimum constitutional
standards in prisons” (Duran v. Anaya, 642, Supp. 510 (DNM 1986), page 525, paragraph 6).

And it is not clear that the soy diet is saving the state of Illinois any money, not when you
consider the greatly increased medical costs that have ensued, and the risk to the state of costly
lawsuits. The state of Virginia provides grass-fed beef to inmates at no cost to the state. Low-
risk prisoners raise the beef at Sky Meadows State Park. The surplus is sold to the Pennsylvania
Department of Corrections, resulting in a net gain for the prison budget. All over the country
prisons are instituting creative ways to save money while teaching inmates new skills, including
gardening, animal husbandry, beekeeping, food processing, composting and recycling. Only the
state of Illinois has chosen to poison its prisoners instead.

It is said that a nation is judged on the way it treats its prisoners. The American prison
system is predicated on the premise that criminals can be rehabilitated. To feed prisoners a diet
that can permanently ruin their health robs them of any opportunity for rehabilitation, renders
them unfit for normal life when they are released, and will impose an unnecessary burden on the
state’s medical services. It constitutes a medical experiment and amounts cruel and unusual
punishment, which must be stopped.


Mr. Obama, you can stop this cruel soy-feeding experiment with one phone call. I
urge you to be that champion of fairness and justice that you promised during your
campaign by making that call.

Sincerely yours,

Sally Fallon Morell, President
The Weston A. Price Foundation

The Weston A. Price Foundation is a non-profit nutrition education foundation dedicated to
restoring nutrient-dense foods to the human diet through education, research and activism. The
Foundation is spearheading a national campaign to warn consumers about the dangers of
modern soy foods. Please visit their website www.westonaprice.org to learn more about the
Foundation’s Soy Alert! campaign.


I think it's probably safe to say that soy products are being used in prisons all over the country, and perhaps that is why poor Mr. McNichols is having such distress!

[MadMaddie]

27. See Waterboarding isn't necessary...

Just sayin...life in prison is not the cake walk that Repugs try to make it out to be.

[madeline_con]

30. Could be other reasons for the bleeding.

:popcorn:

[jmowreader]

77. Not in his case...

It's hard to be a prison bitch when you're in solitary confinement 23.5 hours per day.

Of course, we COULD always put him in General Population...

[pipoman]

125. There is no Gen Pop in Admin. Max., he would have to be moved to regular max. for gen. pop.

Different building, same campus.

[superduperfarleft]

88. Haha, prison rape!

Hilarious!

[Matariki]

91. Unbelievable, isn't it?

[SOS]

99. Sickening.

nt

[bertman]

35. Hey, Terry, that's why it's called PRISON--and not The Nutrition Center For Murderers.

[Drunken Irishman]

36. Oh fucking well.

[npk]

44. Stick a pipe bomb up his ass. That should solve the problem.

:nopity:

[walldude]

51. I don't think it's a pipe bomb stuck up there

and I don't think he's bleeding because of the food.

[Matariki]

45. Apart from what an asshole he is - the issue is valid

people in prison shouldn't be fed unhealthy food. They have no choice, their punishment is being deprived their freedom, not eroding their health. That's fucking medieval and cruel.

[madeline_con]

49. 168 people had their health eroded thanks to him.

He's getting better than he deserves. Hard labor would be good, for the bleeding hearts here who wouldn't have him gassed.

[NYC Liberal]

52. The DP is being weak on crime. Life imprisonment with solitary confinement = tough on crime

Fact.

And what's the threshold for what you have to do to deserve either being killed by the government, or abused in prison?

[madeline_con]

54. Death is harsher than life in prison. Fact.

[NYC Liberal]

66. Death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment. That's not tough on crime

that's barbarism.

China, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan, Somalia ... our partners in executing people!

These countries?

Albania (2000)
Andorra (1990)
Angola (1992)
Argentina (2008)
Armenia (2003)
Australia (1984)
Austria (1950)
Azerbaijan (1998)
Belgium (1996)
Bhutan (2004)
Bosnia-Herzegovina (1997)
Bulgaria (1998)
Cambodia (1989)
Canada (1976)
Cape Verde (1981)
Chile (2008)
Colombia (1910)
Cook Islands (2007)
Costa Rica (1877)
Côte d'Ivoire (2000)
Croatia (1990)
Cyprus (1983)
Czech Republic (1990)
Denmark (1933)
Djibouti (1995)
Dominican Republic (1966)
East Timor (1999)
Ecuador (1906)
Estonia (1998)
Finland (1949)
France (1981)
Georgia (1997)
Germany (1949)
Greece (1993)
Guinea-Bissau (1993)
Haiti (1987)
Honduras (1956)
Hungary (1990)
Iceland (1928)
Ireland (1990)
Italy (1947)
Kiribati (1979)
Liberia (2005)
Liechtenstein (1987)
Lithuania (1998)
Luxembourg (1979)
Macedonia (1991)
Malta (1971)
Marshall Islands (1986)
Mauritius (1995)
Mexico (2005)
Micronesia (1986)
Moldova (1995)
Monaco (1962)
Montenegro (2002)
Mozambique (1990)
Namibia (1990)
Nepal (1990)
Netherlands (1870)
New Zealand (1961)
Nicaragua (1979)
Niue (n.a.)
Norway (1905)
Palau (n.a.)
Panama (1903)
Paraguay (1992)
Poland (1997)
Portugal (1867)
Philippines (2006)
Romania (1989)
Rwanda (2007)
Samoa (2004)
San Marino (1848)
São Tomé and Príncipe (1990)
Senegal (2004)
Serbia (2002)
Seychelles (1993)
Slovak Republic (1990)
Slovenia (1989)
Solomon Islands (1966)
South Africa (1995)
Spain (1978)
Sweden (1921)
Switzerland (1942)
Turkey (2002)
Turkmenistan (1999)
Tuvalu (1978)
Ukraine (1999)
United Kingdom (1973)
Uruguay (1907)
Uzbekistan (2008)
Vanuatu (1980)
Vatican City (1969)
Venezuela (1863)

Guess they're "soft on crime"

[NutmegYankee]

55. Death is harsher. Many have lived through hell because they wanted to live.

Even in prison, you get to read and experience life everyday and think about whatever you want to think about, much as Thoreau and others noted. You may be shackled, but no one can stop your mind from thinking what you want and traveling where you want to go. No one except Death.

Fact.

[NYC Liberal]

67. Really? So whatever someone does, should we do it right back?

Kill someone, we kill you.
Rape someone, you get raped.
Steal something, we cut off your hand.

Oh wait, you probably support that.

You may be shackled, but no one can stop your mind from thinking what you want and traveling where you want to go. No one except Death

You may be shackled, but no one can stop you from appealing a bad verdict, coming from an incompetent public defender, mismanagement (or corruption) by the police, or bad eyewitnesses. No one ... except Death.

But hey, we never make mistakes right?

Oh wait: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-death-penalty#inn-st

As of April 8, 2009 there have been 131 exonerations in 26 different States.



EXONERATIONS BY RACE

Black
67
White
50
Latino
12
Other
2

[NutmegYankee]

76. I state a fact, and you hyperventilate over it.

Everything you accused me of in that post was off base. I just stated that death is worse than living. You did not refute that.

[NYC Liberal]

86. I said the DP penalty is weak on crime, which it is.

(Note I said "weak on crime" ... both here, and in my original post. I never said anything about whether it's "harsher")

It doesn't deter criminals (who don't think they're going to be caught anyway), it doesn't serve justice, just blood thirst.

Given that the DP doesn't reduce crime, why have it other than the revenge factor?

[NutmegYankee]

93. How can the ultimate penalty be weaker?

[NYC Liberal]

94. If one faces execution, one will potentially better cover their tracks.

[NutmegYankee]

95. Any proof? Most try to cover them anyway.

[Bill McBlueState]

104. nothing harsh about death

You're dead. How can it be anything?

[NutmegYankee]

106. Because the normal will of all animals is to live. You want to do anything to stay alive.

Suicide is a result of mental illness.

[Matariki]

68. Yeah? And what about the person who's in prison for 10 years on drug charges?

Do they get to come out of prison with their health ruined because of blood thirsty people like you?

[madeline_con]

Were they not aware of the law?

We take chances when we engage in illegal activity. Work to change the laws instead of trying to find ways to coddle murderers, just because you feel the drug laws are unjust.

[Matariki]

89. So you don't agree that we seriously need prison reform in this country?

You think everything is just peachy? That anyone in jail *deserves* to be in overcrowded hell holes?

It's not punishment enough for people who have their personal liberty restricted? They have to have their health and safety compromised, and be as physically uncomfortable as possible?

Let me ask you, are you also for torture?

And let me ask you also, do you truly believe that everyone in prison deserves to be there? No innocent people ever get sent to prison? Or people who would have gone free if not for their race?

[madeline_con]

80. button stuck

[NutmegYankee]

84. Their health isn't ruined.

Of those I have known after getting out, most had "bulked up".

[Matariki]

71. "bleeding hearts"? Let me guess what the ''con" stands for in your moniker.

[madeline_con]

79. o.k

[NC_Nurse]

50. he's lucky he didn't get the death penalty like his buddy. Then his "sacred"

body would be 6 ft. under.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

53. Terry Nichols is full of shit.

And I don't give one.

[WillowTree]

57. Only when he's in the "constipation" part of the cycle.

Later he enters the "diarrhea" part and that takes care of it.

See? It's the Circle of Life, Simba!

Nichols gave up the right to control anything about the way he lives, including how many servings of Kellogg's Original 100% All-Bran he gets to eat per week, when he participated in the savage slaughter of 168 men, women and children who'd never harmed him in any way.

[shadowknows69]

59. Um, fuck you. You're probably eating better than some of us.

When you have nothing to eat but PB+Js and cheese sandwiches for a week then come talk to me about constipation.

[NutmegYankee]

61. I tried pointing that out, but the "better progressive than you" people took offense. n/t

[lucretia54]

63. So, isn't withholding basic nutritional needs akin to torture?

I'm not saying give them food to please their delicate and discerning palates...I'm talking about the basic needs of the human body.

It sounds like torture to me - and that's what most people on this board tonight are calling for.

I'm sorry to hear that.

[NutmegYankee]

65. I highly doubt basic needs are being withheld.

His problems probably stem from the normal American diet fare served to an aging man who is not active. Age increases constipation problems as does constant sitting with little activity. What is it that people do in Prison again? Oh right - sit around and get older.


All he has to do is ask for laxatives and fiber aids, like the rest of us take for those kinds of problems.

[Matariki]

69. yeah, I'm sure chemical laden baloney on white bread is real nutritious.

[madeline_con]

81. If it is, the government is torturing school children.

[JVS]

116. Basic nutritional needs are usually measured in calories and doses of particular vitamins and...

minerals. Whether the food agrees with him (i.e if it constipates him or is hard to digest) is a secondary matter, but even though it is not basic nutrition, I think he should be able to discuss fiber with the prison physician and find a way to get more fiber into his diet.

[MrSlayer]

72. This jackass should have ridden the lightning with his buddy McVeigh.

We shouldn't be wasting food on this piece of garbage at all. I'm sure there are plenty of homeless, hungry families that could make better use of the food and the space this dick is taking up.

[madeline_con]

83. Stand by for the "you're no better than North Korea" clique to

tell you how "bloodthirsty" and uncivilized you are. :eyes:

[Matariki]

90. Indeed. Like a bunch of prrimates and neocons

:eyes: to you too.

[MrSlayer]

122. They always turn up.

And then we have the same argument we've had a hundred times previous. If the right wingers ever did go to their violent revolution, I'm sure the anti-DPers would happily welcome this barbarian on their side.

[baldguy]

75. .

:nopity:

[PopSixSquish]

78. I'm a Compassionate Person Myself

but my compassion is reserved for his victims...The picture of the firefighter carrying the baby boy from the aftermath haunts me to this day.

Fuck you Terry.

[underpants]

82. How about a little get away to the luxurious evirons of Gitmo?

as your kind of people keep telling us about

[sendero]

87. Drink more water..

.... moron.

[riverdeep]

96. In the late eighties, I got popped for a DUI.

I had to do thirty days work release in an Illinois jail. It was a minimum security jail, and it was terrible. I slept at night in the jail, and went to work during the day. Weekends I stayed in prison the whole time. You had thirty minutes to report to jail after you left work and to report to work after you left jail. Being I couldn't drive anymore, I had to ride a bike in the middle of winter. You paid the state for the privilege of work release, something like a thousand dollars. They placed my bunk right next to a blaring TV, and even though there were other free beds, they refused to move me. I was so tired I wound up sleeping anyway. The food consisted of nearly rancid baloney sandwiches and a fruit cup and a drink. They calculated how many calories it would take to keep someone alive, and that was all you got.

You were run ragged for thirty days, it was a terrible experience that made me make sure I'd never again have contact with the law, and I didn't. I don't think jail should be a pleasant experience. I don't think it should devolve into cruel and unusual punishment, but not getting enough fiber doesn't strike me as being cruel and unusual, since most Americans, especially poor Americans, are in the same boat. Hell, he at least gets medical care, which is more than a lot of free people get.

As far as his nonsense about his body being 'sacred and holy', he can stuff it. The people he killed, their bodies were just as sacred. If he realized that, he could be eating All Bran all day long.

[Matariki]

100. And what if you somehow ended up in prison for 8 years instead?

Would you still feel like the blaring tv and baloney sandwiches were okay? Eight years with poor sleep and poor diet? What do you think a decade of that would do to your health?

You really think that those conditions are okay?

And then there's the commonality of prison rape jokes, even running through threads on a supposedly progressive board like DU - that's okay too I suppose. Because anyone committing a crime deserves rape and torture? I realize you aren't saying that, but I see a lot of that attitude in this thread and threads like it and I find it deeply disturbing.

[riverdeep]

102. Yes, I find the rape and torture stuff disturbing myself.

To me, that is under cruel and unusual. As far as having to be sentenced to that environment I was in for eight years, it would be unpleasant, really unpleasant. I think I could adapt, or make some peace with it, I don't know. But basing a prison system entirely on if someone entering might be innocent, I don't know if that would work. Merely having your freedom taken away would be something you can't give back. How do you give someone the best years of their life back?

As I said, I don't think not getting an optimum diet falls past that line for me, it does for some others, apparently.

[TWiley]

97. Maybe it is the prison sex that is the cause of his conditions?

just a thought ....

[Hannah Bell]

105. he's in protective solitary - for you & the others for whom sex was the first thought

that lept to mind.

[superduperfarleft]

120. Funny, if I started a thread with dead baby jokes, I would be banned.

Yet jokes about prison rape stand.

And yet this whole website is up in arms about the torture investigations.

What a bunch of fucking hypocrites.

[spotbird]

107. It would probably be cheaper to feed

them a healthy diet.

[Vinca]

108. I see he's found Jesus. Maybe he could pray for peristalsis.

Or for raisin bran to come out of the sky on a flaming pie.

[Toucano]

109. Some comments in this thread appear to be written by students of Thomas & Scalia

The state has an obligation to feed prisoners a proper diet.

[TexasObserver]

110. Agreed. We're talking about a loaf of whole grain bread a week.

We're talking about a loaf of whole grain bread a week, here, as the difference. Can we not give the prisoners the kind of bread that makes their intestines function properly? Isn't that a lot smarter than requiring them to get medical treatment for conditions that are avoidable with a diet that has proper fiber? Every doctor who sees patients about intestinal issues wants to know what they're eating, and usually wants them to get more fiber in the diet. This isn't something this prisoner dreamed up. It's a widely accepted and acknowledged fact of life: the body needs fiber, and whole grain bread is a good source.

So they make the baloney sandwiches on whole grain bread instead white bread. Why is that even an issue? The objections to it voiced on this thread are medieval.

[scrinmaster]

113. If he didn't participate in the OKC bombing

he could be eating whatever he wants. Nichols isn't some random person the government is forcing to eat shitty prison food, he is a domestic terrorist who helped murder 168 people.

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. Terry Nichols lived only a few miles from a good friend of mine

We went by and checked out his house after he was sent to prison. It was a farmhouse on a few acres with a barn. The landlord hadn't been able to rent it after Terry was arrested. The yard was absolutely peppered with shot gun shells. They were everywhere. Terry must have spent a lot of time shooting a shotgun in his yard. It was pretty creepy.

[Initech]

119. That's the least of what that fucker deserves.

[BlooInBloo]

123. We are how we treat people....

Even ones as shitty as him.