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THE APPROVAL OF TORTURE: IT IS REALLY VERY SIMPLE

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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:07 PM
Original message
THE APPROVAL OF TORTURE: IT IS REALLY VERY SIMPLE
It is really very simple. Ample, credible evidence of violations of federal law have been produced by a plethora of reputable sources -- including the United States Senate and even the Pentagon. It is the function of the Justice Department to investigate possible violations of federal law, and, if warranted, prosecute them. Barack Obama would not -- could not -- carry out such a criminal investigation or direct the prosecution. The United States Congress would not carry out such a criminal investigation or direct the prosecution. Not a single government official now involved in dealing with the wars, with foreign policy, with the economy and the bailout, with health care, with employment and housing, with the environment, with the budget, with immigration -- in short, with any single activity of governing whatsoever -- would have their "time and energy" taken up by a straightforward criminal investigation undertaken by the Justice Department. I see that Paul Krugman is making this same point in the New York Times. So now, even "serious" people can't pretend not to have heard it.

If anyone -- politician, pundit, pal at the water cooler -- gives you the argument that torture can't be investigated because it would be a "distraction" from other government business, they are either lying to your face, or else ignorantly repeating a lie that's been filtered down from the elite. The argument about "distraction" is ludicrous, and insulting, on its face. It is exactly like saying, "Oh, we can't investigate these murders by Al Capone and his mob, because the mayor and city council have a lot on their plates right now, with this Depression and all. This is a time for looking forward, not retribution."

We don't need a "truth commission." We don't need to "wait for the facts to be gathered," as that walking conglomeration of craven servility and moral corruption, Harry Reid, insists. There are enough clearly established, copiously documented, credibly supported facts already in the public domain to warrant a full-scale criminal investigation by federal law enforcement officials.

It has nothing to do with "retribution" or "criminalizing policy disagreements" or "witch hunts" or any other of the weasel-word phrases being disgorged by our Establishment grandees in their panicky attempt to bury the crimes -- and in some cases, the dead bodies -- of the nation's bipartisan leadership.

And here we come to the crux of the matter. There will be no genuine accounting (or, apparently, not even any ersatz accounting, with a couple of scapegoat scalps paraded before the rubes) on the question of torture by the United States government for two simple reasons. First, the Democratic leaders of Congress are themselves thoroughly complicit in the torture system, about which they were often briefed by the Bush Administration itself. And if the Bush Administration withheld information about many of its atrocities in these official briefings (which is highly likely), detailed revelations of what was really going on has been readily available for years from a number of, again, credible and respectable sources, from human rights organizations to U.S. government agencies.

<snip>

http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/3/1749-top-of-the-heap-the-democrats-teachable-moment-on-torture.html
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. " First, the Democratic leaders of Congress are themselves thoroughly complicit in the torture..."
What utter bullshit.

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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. A thorough investigation is required, that's for sure.
Since Democrats' complicity is being bandied about so freely, and not just by Chris Floyd, we should insist on it, to clear the innocent as well as indict the guilty.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Exactly,
and that's what people should be calling for without trying to blow smoke.



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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. People want investigations to prosecute the guilty, but the innocent need them too.
The innocent tend to be forgotten in the heat of anger, but they are just as important to clear as the guilty are to convict.

Moving on without investigation and full exposure actually harms the innocent. This is an important concept that often gets overlooked. (that's why I am repeating myself :))
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. You are right on!
If the Democrats in Congress ordered torture or carried out torture we need to find out right now! I noticed David Brooks on the News Hour this evening was talking about "The distraction" of an investigation and pointing out the Democrats in congress "going along" with the torture. What Bull Shit. Shields on the other hand pointed out that somehow it was so important in 1998 to take the time of Congress and the whole of the United States to investigate the possibility of lying about a Blow Job.

America, where are you now? Don't you care about your sons and daughters?

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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. For the record
Do you think some of the Dem leaders were briefed on these interrogation techniques?

Do you support a full investigation regardless of the outcome and who gets prosecuted/convicted?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. We don't have any idea
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 08:35 PM by ProSense
what those briefings entailed. All we have is Republicans like Porter Goss making claims. It's funny to me that people would accept Goss' version of events when he's making them to support the notion that there was no torture.

There needs to be a full investigation to get to the truth, not more BS speculation based on GOP-generated rumors. No futher embellishments or spin are needed, the facts are damning enough. If anyone has more facts, new facts, not regurgitated spin, then come with it.





edited word.





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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. The problem is, what are the Dem leaders doing now?
They have a shared duty to ensure that any credible accusation of torture is adequately investigated and resolved. They are making themselves complicit by not doing anything affirmative to ensure that these international and domestic laws are complied with. At some point, if they do nothing, they can be considered accomplices.

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment

Article 2



1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.

2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.

3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.


Article 11


Each State Party shall keep under systematic review interrogation rules, instructions, methods and practices as well as arrangements for the custody and treatment of persons subjected to any form of arrest, detention or imprisonment in any territory under its jurisdiction, with a view to preventing any cases of torture.


Article 12


Each State Party shall ensure that its competent authorities proceed to a prompt and impartial investigation, wherever there is reasonable ground to believe that an act of torture has been committed in any territory under its jurisdiction.


Article 13


Each State Party shall ensure that any individual who alleges he has been subjected to torture in any territory under its jurisdiction has the right to complain to, and to have his case promptly and impartially examined by, its competent authorities. Steps shall be taken to ensure that the complainant and witnesses are protected against all ill-treatment or intimidation as a consequence of his complaint or any evidence given.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm


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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I support a full investigation of anyone anywhere that has broken the law
No one is above the law - period.
Without rule of law our government is not worthy of support.
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sweettater Donating Member (674 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Your few words
puts in all in perspective. Well said! kudos to you! :applause:
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Truth is usually simple - rationalizations require a lot of flowery rhetoric
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Absolutely. nt
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jtrockville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Charles Krauthammer made this argument on "Washington Week"
For me, it doesn't hold water. I strongly feel WHOEVER is complicit in this matter needs to be prosecuted. It's NOT political. I haven't heard ANYONE call for prosecution of only Republicans.

I HAVE heard people call for prosecution of "lawyers" who wrote memos justifying TORTURE, "doctors" who attended TORTURE sessions, and anyone who ordered TORTURE.

So I can say, emphatically, YES I support a full investigation regardless of the outcome, but not necessarily regardless of who gets prosecuted. I strongly feel EVERYONE involved should be prosecuted. So if no one were to be prosecuted I wouldn't support the full investigation.

But I would support a full investigation regardless of the party affiliation of those who were prosecuted.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. "walking conglomeration of craven servility and moral corruption"
I may borrow this beautifully descriptive phrase, and I can think of any number of people it applies to. We need an independent investigation and it's crazy that it's not happening. How many of our tax dollars did they spend on figuring out who Bill Clinton was sleeping with? Surely we could put even half that effort into figuring out who in our government was encouraging torture.
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
14. Chris Floyd says it perfectly.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
15. Error: You've already recommended that thread.
So I'll just settle for a regular old kick.
:dem:
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
16. Yep k*r
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 11:45 PM by autorank
You're a :patriot: Mr. Ghost!
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
17. K&R
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