Gotta love this: "Capitalism is leading humanity and the planet to extinction"

[dixiegrrrrl]

The Declaration of Cumaná: Capitalism 'threatens life on the planet'

"We, the Heads of State and Government of Bolivia, Cuba, Dominica, Honduras, Nicaragua and Venezuela, member countries of ALBA, consider that the Draft Declaration of the 5th Summit of the Americas is insufficient and unacceptable for the following reasons:"

http://rabble.ca/news/2009/04/declaration-cuman%C3%A1-capitalism-threatens-life-planet

[inthebrain]

1. It's true when you consider global warming

And the fact that those claiming that it isn't happening just happen to be capitalists. Even some of those corporations claiming to do something about it really are just blowing smoke (Literally and figurativly). Just think the so called "clean coal" technology. It's the same thing as calling creationism, "creation science".

[dixiegrrrrl]

3. I could have been clearer...I love that So. America is taking the stand it is taking.

I love that they are calling Imperialism and capitalism for what it is.
I love it that they are standing together and defying the old divide-and conquer- game.

[malaise]

16. Ditto

About time.

[izquierdista]

2. Coincidence??

Capitalism really took off after the steam engine and the internal combustion engine were invented. Those inventions made it possible to manufacture more products and transport them to markets, and in the process relentlessly increase the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. Maybe the internal combustion engine is the real culprit and capitalism is just an opportunistic parasite.

[paulsby]

4. lol. what rubbish

more anti-capitalist nonsense.

because we know socialist countries have such a wonderful history of respecting the environment. chernobyl, the river volga, etc.

[Fendius]

5. I disagree

Capitilism is right in front of your eyes, and do you believe its working?? Think more than 10 years down the road. Capitilsm is just another econism, and any "social" structure based around greed and tyranny seems doomed. I would bet anyone speaking about Capitilism thinks going back in time and living under Socialism is stupid, we need to evolve.. Rubbish is a "cheap shot"

[paulsby]

7. i prefer facts to rhetoric

of course capitalism works. it works swimmingly well.

it has increased efficiences (to put it mildly) in agriculture and industry, and grown metric assloads of wealth.

so what alternative do you propose to capitalism.

[Fendius]

9. A resource based economy,

Rhetoric maybe, i apologise, Cap. has definately helped industry, but metric assloads of wealth? is this a long term statement? or a "im talking about right now because id rather not plan ahead and realise assloads of wealth to 1% of any population is just awesome.." How can it work? eventually it means one Business will rule all...

[The River]

10. What Facts?

You've listed zero facts.
Mindless unrestrained growth for the sake of profit and "wealth"
has polluted the air, food and water we need to live. What good is
"metric assloads of wealth" when it kills the planet we live on?

[inthebrain]

12. Three mile island?

yeah that never happened.

And Long Island nearly has it's own Shoreham Nuclear Plant till the citizens, acting as a COLLECTIVE, stopped it.

Capitalism is probably one step above feudalism. As a matter of fact, once you take out the monarchy and heirarchy of being out of the equation, the are one in the same. Using Chernobyl as some example of socialistic disregard for the enviornment is freakin absurd.

For one Chernobyl there are ten examples of envionmental disregard by capialists. Starting with the use of DDT in agriculture (even after it was proven a carcinogen) leading nearly 20% of women on Long Island getting breast cancer. That shit leaked it's way into the ground water.

The flamable rivers in the mid west during the early twentieth century from the paper mills and chemical plants. BTW the socialists of that era put a fucking stop to that shit.

The coal plants that polluted a river in PA leading to high rate of autism. The bosses new well about that shit and kept a lid on it for decades.

[misanthrope]

28. That might depend on how you define "monarchy"...

...We've got something here similar to it.

[cliffordu]

29. Yeah, it's just fucking perfect if the meaning of life is the accumulation of

"Metric assloads of wealth...."

When natural resources were cheap, the sky was the limit, and unbridled greed called capitalism was just fabulous.

Now, someone has to lose in fundamental ways to support the gluttony.

And that is what the capitalism of my father and grandfather, who actually made things for a living, has become.


Multinational Corporate Gluttony

[Joe Chi Minh]

42. This seems close to the mark; from an article by Dmitri Orlov, a Russian Emigre to the US, entitled

Post Soviet Lessons for a Post American Century:

".....
They are the two post-World War II industrial empires that attempted to impose their ideologies on the rest of the world: democracy and capitalism versus socialism and central planning. Both had some successes: while the United States reveled in growth and prosperity, the Soviet Union achieved universal literacy, universal health care, far less social inequality, and a guaranteed - albeit lower - standard of living for all citizens. The state-controlled media took pains to make sure that most people didn't realize just how much lower it was: 'Those happy Russians don't know how badly they live,” Simone Signoret said after a visit.'

Here is the link to the article and others, also very interesting and very, very dry.

In answer to your question, a Social Democratic, One Nation, mixed economy, similar to the one that existed in the UK after WWII. Even the Tory Governments during that period shared much of the Labour Party's vision of one harmonious nation, with rich and poor but only a very small number of very mentally disturbed, who were homeless, CHOOSING to sleep rough.

[MajorChode]

34. Funny how your definition of "cheap shot" only works one direction

I've been fortunate enough to experience numerous economic downturns (which are always the result of the natural economic cycle), and during each one the pinks stand up on their self-righteous soapboxes and declare capitalism will be dead in 10 years.

Meanwhile the pink's favorite darling, Chávez is financing his totalitarian socialist eco-utopia with petro dollars from capitalist countries and even at that his country is still crumbling around him. The irony of it all is quite entertaining if you think about it much.

[superduperfarleft]

22. Says the cop.

Go easy on the brothers tonight, officer.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. hmm how about sweeden and norway?

after all, they are socialists, and the US is just as capitalist as the USSR was socialist... aka in name only

[MajorChode]

35. Sweden and Norway aren't any more socialist than the US is capitalist

Both have a mixed economy (just like the US). The only difference is Sweden leans much more towards a welfare state and Norway has socialized their oil industry. Furthermore the only reason why Norway prospers is because they sell their massive oil reserves to capitalist countries. If capitalism fails, so does Norway, and capitalism is also the machine that drives Sweden's welfare state.

[anigbrowl]

39. They are not socialist countries.

Look, social democracy != socialism. They are fundamentally different things. Sweden and Norway are countries with strong social welfare systems, and I admire them greatly for that (I'm Euro myself so I am largely in favor of such political models). This is not at all the same as socialism. If you go there and tell them their country is socialist they'll just laugh at you.

[TahitiNut]

6. When enterprise costs are 'externalized,' profits increase and the planet suffers.

It's really as simple as that.

[Jakes Progress]

8. Save us from the purists.

Neither unfettered socialism nor totalitarian socialism offer any hope for us.

Either capitalism with humanitarian restrictions or socialism with freedom can.

Like religion, government by ideological zealots is a bad thing.

[inthebrain]

14. UMM the only reason we know about global warming to begin with

is because of PUBLIC FUNDING for research.

That ain't purist bullshit. That's a fact.

Capitalism does not have any humanitarianism in it nor can you restrict it to have it. The very basis of captialism is to appropriate the earnings of the working classes to a select few; The ruling class. There's nothing humanitarian about that at all. And no matter how you choose to "humanize" that exploitation will still exist.

The fuckers who run things will do anything to see to it that it remains that way.

[Jakes Progress]

23. Okay, then. Protect us from absolutists.

Those who live on the far ends of the continua.

To them anything is always an absolute, whereas in the real world, there are no absolutes.

Try applying you last sentence to a socialist country. What do you get? Sheesh.

[inthebrain]

24. LOL

I guess we can further that by saying there is no such thing as an absolutist either. After all, there are no absolutes.

[Jakes Progress]

32. LOL

Seems to be the depth of your thinking.

When confronted, show sarcasm. While failing, giggle.

My point was (as you knew when you chose to put up the puppet show) was that there are degrees of capitalism and degrees of socialism. I myself fall on the line toward socialism, but that system in it's purest form is also humanistically bankrupt. The balance in a society as discussed by Schumpeter, will show a . . . .

Ah, the hell with it. You just wanted a little chance to rant and throw rocks. Go ahead. It's just a thread in forum. Have fun. Toss a few more uninformed bombs. No one cares. So have at it.

[inthebrain]

37. You haven't confronted me with anything that scares me

or I find intimidating.

The problem with socialism whereas it becomes totalitarianism has nothing to do with it being absolute or pure. If anything it's the extreme opposite. The communist countries of the USSR and China were and are focused on the reform of the working classes. They never addressed problems that the Bourgouisie brung with them. As a matter of fact, both examples ignored them and allowed them to carry on as before.

You're not entering anything here into the conversation I find intimidating. Just the same old capitalist clap trap of talking points and propaganda.

[Jakes Progress]

40. I see now.

It's not about discussion of ideas; it's about intimidating and scaring. Two terms I didn't bring up or contemplate.

So you suggest that capitalism is a complete evil. When I suggest that is not so, you begin word games and subject changes. I guess you didn't want to discuss anything anyway.

You began your silliness with the pronouncement that it was public funding (or is that PUBLIC FUNDING) that let us in on global warming. We'll let go the question of what that has to do with the discussion at hand and go to the obvious. The US is a capitalist society and the public funding took place there. Even though later you said that a capitalist society wouldn't let that happen. And having been a part of some of that research, I can tell you that our capitalist government funded huge research projects on this subject. For that fact, several corporations did too. So that post was pretty much purist bullshit.

Then there was a shot at my post regarding purists. You confuse an absolute with an absolutist. I suspect that you know the difference, but were looking for a cute snark. Your snark may have been cute but it displayed either ignorance or a willingness for intellectual dishonesty.

You go ahead and think that all discussions have to be about "scaring" someone or intimidation. It won't get you any closer to the truth, but you seem to enjoy it.

I'll even let you "win" this one. Just because you have scared me so much and I'm so intimidated by sophomore year bullshit session arguments.

[anigbrowl]

41. So what? He wasn't attempting to do so. quit posturing.

[misanthrope]

27. No absolutes in reality? What about death?**nm

**

[Jakes Progress]

31. What about it?

Is death an end? Physically? Spiritually? Ecologically?

Some pretty small thinking there.

[misanthrope]

36. Not "small," just science-based.**nm

**

[Jakes Progress]

38. No life cycle in your science? nt

[Telly Savalas]

33. Did this public funding occur exclusively in non-capitalist countries?

[inthebrain]

44. Global Warming is something we've known about for the last twenty years

Whether or not the country that discovered it was capitalist or not is a non sequitor.

In the west it was discovered cotton farming rapes the soil of all it's ground water and nutrients. This was long before the great dustbowl of the thirties. The private sector itself did not give two shits about until it was too late. By then those farmers were losing their homes to the banks. They were all thrown off of their land and sent packing. Those that stayed in their homes were arrested and many of em shot by the pinkertons hired by the banks.

Same thing with global warming. We've known about that since the 70's. It wasn't some tobacco or oil company funding the research. The great thing about public funding of scientific exploration is that these people don't have to answer to the "free market". The great irony in it all is that the free market often doen't answer to the call of science except for when making a buck is involved.

Crap, I think even the Russians, when they were this big pseudo communistic empire, already knew about the dangers of global warming.

Even so, in the areas of science they were whipping our asses. They were well ahead of us in the space race by decades. It wasn't until Sputnik that this country finally got serious about tossing the bogey man of creationsim out of the public schools and got serious about science. What you have now in regards to publicly funded research is a REACTION to the sputnik launch.

Gee, those damn commies. In order to catch up to them we had to in turn become more like them. Only with some sticking points. There is not much regarding the endangerment of public health and well being in any scientific discovery that requires the Free Market ro get it's shit together.

Long before you guys got on board with Global Warming the commies and socialist were screaming about it thirty years before hand. Same can be said of just about any other social advancement you find in this country today.

The Free Market capitalists didn't bend willingly to this stuff. They just don't give a crap except to make a buck off of you.

[CANDO]

11. Get your hands on Zeitgeist, Addendum as soon as you can.

Google "The Venus Project" also.

[Fendius]

13. Agreed

[RadiationTherapy]

15. Addendums proposed alternative economic system is kind of cool

but it is doomed by the image and PR being used to promote it. It is almost as if it is specifically being "marketed to fail" by having an excess of flaky sounding "new age" types talking about it.

I have no problem with flaky sounding "new age" types, but I know PR and this is going nowhere.

[scarletwoman]

17. Excellent! Thank you for posting this! Rec'd.

6. The solutions to the global economic crisis and the definition of a new international financial scheme should be adopted with the participation of the 192 countries that will meet in the United Nations Conference on the International Financial Crisis to be held on June 1-3 to propose the creation of a new international economic order.

I wish them all success!

sw

[dixiegrrrrl]

18. It was nice to have a discussion on this thread that did not turn into a flame fest.

Thank you.

My take away point of the article in question is actually on the issue of So. America unification.
The FU to, shall we say, "American" capitalization was nice, too.

[Vidar]

19. South America gives me hope.

[bottomtheweaver]

21. Second that.

We allowed the torturers we sent down there to take over our own government and now we're in the same pickle they were twenty years ago.

[bottomtheweaver]

20. Thanks for posting! Glad somebody's on the case.

Right now we're a banana republic run by the CIA so there's not a lot we peasants can do. Seriously, Chavez and company are about the only hope I see for us right now.

[TBF]

25. Excellent. K&R n/t

[misanthrope]

26. No, it's human population that is doing it**nm

**

[MellowDem]

43. It's not capitalism...

It's the advancement in technologies and standards of living that we have come to expect as well as the population boom. To blame capitalism is to paint the wrong target. Capitalism is merely an economic system. It can be regulated, or not, just like any other system. Sweden is a capitalist country, yet it regulates capitalism in such a way that is beneficial to it's citizens.

This is just a chance for certain SA countries to posture to their own citizens, meanwhile carrying on with their own very capitalistic ways. The system that is capitalism can be used to help solve global problems as much as it can cause them. In fact, capitalism has helped make the right conditions for many problems to be solved in our own lifetime. Hence Obama's plan to cap and trade. It's funny that these supposedly "non-capitalist" countries sit around waiting for the capitalist countries to solve all the world's problems.

Blaming capitalism is a good way to ignore the real problems and possible solutions of different crisis. It's simple-minded propaganda for the masses.

[Xicano]

45. Native Elders Speak.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7cylfQtkDg

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqfvUA2vRAM

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9piIziXU9RE

Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z57zs_Q67Ng

Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BqJMwKZdyE