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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:10 AM
Original message
Please give some thought to your answer to this question
Let's assume that torture investigations lead to charges which lead to trials which lead to convictions.

Let's assume that Bush and his boss, The Dick, are found guilty.

Will they be made to go to prison or will they be pardoned?

I see no other choices.



What do you think?
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. They will both receive Medals of Freedom...
for having the courage to do what was needed to protect our country...Blah...blah...blah...
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. I hate to be serious but...
I don't see them being sent to prison.

--imm
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. I think that Obama will pardon them with a harsh critique
"These people were acting in desperation after a complete failure to protect the American people on 9-11. They didn't know what to do and acted in fear. They wanted to protect America and were afraid to fail again."

The worst kind of pardon is from the opposition.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. once you exposed them as criminals, i don't care what happens
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
5. I don't see them ever going to trial
I see the GOP delaying, stonewalling, threatening, stomping their feet, holding their breath, and a few underlings being thrown to the wolves to appease the masses, but Booshe and Chinney are untouchable. Obama will not go their in his first term, and this is the ONLY term he has to get these two miserable fucks.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. So you don't see the investigations ever actually getting started, then?
Not arguing, just asking.

Once actual investigations get going, there's no stopping them. This is a population that has many who still recall Watergate and who recall clearly how branches of that investigation were stopped before they got the real criminals.

John Mitchell was that era's Gonzo. He was the topest of the top dogs to howl.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. I don't think Washington has the stomach or courage to go forward
And going after a former President isn't a precedence Obama wants to set. Sure, Clinton was the target of a well-oiled GOP machine that tried to engineer his demise before he was elected, but Obama has a lot on his plate, and I think that he isn't ready to give us his true base, any cookies.
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. As of now, I'd expect pardons.

Fasten your safety belts!
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
7. american political history -- the way we 'protect'
Edited on Sun Apr-26-09 09:20 AM by xchrom
those who have been our leaders -- would suggest that any kind of prison time is out of the question.

it's a weird kink in us -- the presidents are taken from The People supposedly not above the law -- but nobody grovels, forgives, wrap in flag adorned protectionism like americans do.

then again -- we've never chopped the heads off of any of our leaders the way europeans have.

europeans having done that -- sort of know we really are all equal.
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GardeningGal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
8. I believe the stress would push Cheney's sick heart over the edge.
I think the stress would kill Cheney. I think Bush would high tail it to Paraguay before he ever was put in prison.

Right at the moment I don't think Obama would pardon either of them. The only use of pardon I could see if it was someone at a lower level that they needed testimony in order to finger the top architects of torture.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
10. Whatever happens they should become pariahs in American history
and in their daily lives. People should avoid them just to keep their own reputations from being sullied for being seen talking to them.

Sometimes official punishment or pardons are meaningless. Like child molesters they should be branded forever as torturers and traitors to the Constitution. Hopefully all they've done will come out and no will be able to defend them, just like McCarthy who was so bad that they named an era after him because it was such a dark time. The Bush Era might even be named to single it out.
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alsame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
11. I think they would be "Scootered" - sentences commuted but not
pardoned.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
12. I think they will be convicted
I also think that the dick will either do a ken lay or maybe even really die and the decider will decide he has no other option than to take the hitler way out. Either one of them will not do time as they are not men enough to do that, on the other hand some of the other war criminals will get a prolonged stay at the crossbar hotel. Bushco has been exposed as the thugs they were/are.
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southernyankeebelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
14. EXCELLENT QUESTION - WHAT SHOULD BE DONE AND
WHAT WILL BE DONE IS TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. DOES THIS COUNTRY HAVE THE GUTS TO PROCUTE AND SEND CHENEY AND BUSH TO JAIL? I DON'T THINK SO. HOWEVER, I THINK IF IT IS PROVEN THAT THE REAL PRESIDENT CHENEY WHERE FOUND GUILTY HIS SHOULD BE SENT TO THE HAGUE WHERE ALL LEADERS STAND TRIAL FOR THEIR MISTAKES. BUSH I THINK WAS LEFT OUT OF THE LOOP ALOT. BUT IF IT IS FOUND OUT THAT HE HAND HIS HANDS IN THE TORTURES THAN HE TO SHOULD GO TO TRIAL. BUT THAT IS IF THIS COUNTRY IS WILLING TO TALK THE WALK. I DOUBT IT.
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SmileyRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
15. I don't believe charges will ever be brought at the top tier - 2nd tier maybe
with very short jail time in luxury digs.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
16. I think the men behind the curtain are powerful enough
to put enough pressure on this (or any) administration to pardon them. Think Iran Contra.

Convictions are only for blow jobs and they enhance the thought to the American people that ALL crimes are punished.

Hell, even Watergate was pardoned...it is all an illusion and the sleight of hand is that we hold our Presidents accountable when that simply isn't the truth. Not at all.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. 2/3 of America opposed the Nixon pardon
And Ford was finished the moment he gave it.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. but Ford was never a "Presidential sort" and would never have been elected
to the higher office. His only chance was an appointment to the position.
He did what he was paid to do. He was paid to pardon. He whored himself into the history books.
I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment.
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
17. No jail time for Bush
I doubt it is politically do-able to put Bush in jail without leading to right-wing riots in the street. Doing that would be a challenge to the right that it simply could not tolerate, and with Blackwater in the mix, it might present a real challenge to the survival of this nation.

It is amusing (the only word that comes to mind) how naive the people in this country really are. If we do come together in a cause, it is usually the wrong cause. Think how many supported the Vietnam adventure, and still do. How many think (if they think at all) that Gulf War I was in defense of democracy and freedom, not to mention women's rights? How many still support the rape of Iraq and cannot beleive it was done for the gratification of a useless drone of a bozo like Bush or an evil geopolitical imperialist like his supposed #2?

These are the people, like many here on DU and other places where progressives congregate, who simply cannot beleive that the kind of thing happening in Pakistan could happen here. After all, it simply can't happen here, right?

So, while I think BushCo should definately be prosecuted--and you know stopping short of Bush will forever mar Obama, just like pardoning Nixon did Ford--I cannot see a scenario in which putting him behind bars will not set off a firestorm of terrorism and violence we cannot afford.

I wish I didn't beleive that but I'm fairly advanced in age and I've seen a lot over the last six decades. I remember the hopes we had for JFK, and then RFK and we all saw how that played out. The people behind that, or their philosophical heirs (if not their biological heirs), are still in play.

Like rats, if cornered, they will go for the throat.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
18. You're trying to fast forward to the end of the film, but missing the best parts.
Whatever happens, it will likely be a long protracted process.

Think about all the things that may happen before either of your two proposed endings...

International bodies may become involved, so that Obama might never have to face any pressure to pardon.

This could easily go on for more than four or eight years, in which case the pardon question could be up to president #45.

IMO, the justice will best come from the full investigation and exposure of all that was done and all who did it.

.

My personal sense of justice will come from the fullest international EXPOSURE of these crimes and criminals.

Prison or Pardon, I don't care as long as I get the truth and get to watch them be exposed.

:patriot:
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
20. I hope enough jail term convictions should happen to at least deter some future
criminals from thinking they can get off scott free.
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NV Whino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
22. Assuming it ever got to trial and conviction,
which it probably won't, they would be pardoned or the sentence commuted.

These two particular criminals will never see the wrong side of bars.
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Old Codger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
23. I think it depends
On when if ever it happens and trials actually get going. There really is no doubt about guilt that I can see, a trial would be necessary to dot the i's and cross the t's, if it were to happen tin Obama's second term he might get away with a pardon, possibly commute thier sentences. If it happens during this term, and I don't see any way it can be put off that long really and he pardoned him it would probably be his only term, I do not seriously believe it will even go to trial here... I hope it does and I hope it is televised worldwide with D an * and Rummy doing the perp walk but I have doubts. Be nice to hear them deny all of it and then see the evidence of d admitting it on TV.
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CaptJasHook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
24. The time tested way of going about convictions
is to indict the small fish and lead up to the larger fish.

I don't care if Bush and Cheney go to jail. I do care if they are pardoned. I care that we:

Put felony arrests and convictions on their rap sheets.
Establish that there was a conspiracy.
Convict the underlings who made this possible.
Establish the precedent that following orders will not excuse you.
Require that presidential memos or justice department memos have no authority in a court of law. If you wish to challenge the language of Constitution, its treaties, its amendments and the rulings of the Supreme court, then you must do it publicly with full judicial review.
Renew, update and resign the language of the Geneva conventions.
Let the world know that we do not approve, condone, or in any way allow torture, covert aggression, or preemptive warfare.

But if I had Bush or Cheney in a dark alley.........
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ThirdWorldJohn Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
25. I would think that there pensions and secret service protection would cease
Or would the secret service protection be extended while they serve time?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
26. IMPEACH
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
27. A Presidential pardon would precede/preempt a trial. Upon conviction, a commuted sentence ...
Edited on Sun Apr-26-09 11:20 AM by TahitiNut
... is most likely. If the past is prologue, a preemptive pardon is more likely than a trial. I'd rather have a trial, personally. If anything, pardons in the past have paved the way to such excesses.
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