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Would you trade accountability for the truth?

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:02 PM
Original message
Would you trade accountability for the truth?
In other words, if it was guaranteed that no one would be convicted for any wrong-doing in the torture issues, would you be willing to let the people know the truth about what was done?

Peggy Noonan, on the CNN show, GPS, just said that "the world knew the things that were done wrong so it is time to move on...". The world may know but half the people in this country do not seem to know.

Republicans like Noonan should be asked the question, "If we can guarantee there will be no prosecutions for torture, would you agree to an investigation to expose the truth?" Or would they not be amenable to either?
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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. I wouldn't, cause I want accountability and justifiable prosecutions....
One main reason that we need prosecutions is to try and prevent this from ever happening again.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. From a pragmatic standpoint--yes.
But it would have to be accompanied by concrete evidence that even the dodgiest Freeper fuckwad couldn't paint as false or spin as something other than Truth. If we could be GUARANTEED that the American people--all of them--would know with 100% certainty what Bush and the Republicans did over the past eight years, then yes, I'd trade that for prosecutions. It would be a knockout blow to the Republican Party as an entity to influence policy, and it would be the END of the neoconservative movement.

Killing Neocon conservatism once and for all would be better for the nation than sending a few people to prison. With the latter, the Pukes can salvage themselves by claiming that those in power acted alone, and that the rest of the party knew nothing about it. With the former...they ALL get to share the blame--AND the consequences. No donations, lost elections, and the end of conservative fascist domination.
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Gidney N Cloyd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Well put. nt
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. You make a very good argument but...
What about the issue of justice? If laws were broken, who would have the authority to say that we will not prosecute? Does even the Justice Department have that authority?
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. I see it this way:
There would be justice, even if not the legal kind that ends in a prison term.

None of those people would ever have real jobs again, because even Corporate America would shun them for fear of damaging the "company name." They won't have friends except for each other--and I wouldn't call that "friendship," as it will become a series of pointed fingers and accusations about who was most at fault. They will lose all power, influence, and their "legacies" will become a source of national shame and rage. They will be ostracized to the extreme, shredded by the media, hounded by reporters, inundated with letters of rage and betrayal. They won't be able to walk down a street without being spit upon or cursed at. They will basically be prisoners in their own homes, revered only by a few psychotic nutcases who think torture is A-Okay, and despised by 99% of the world.

Oh, there would be justice. Justice isn't always found in the courtroom, after all.

And the ultimate justice for the American people would be found in the effects: no more GOP fascism, no more neoconservative warmongering, no more "Moral Majority." They would have nothing left save for the knowledge that they destroyed their own lives.

Frankly, I'd be shocked if any of them survived more than a few years of that kind of "justice" before giving up and taking a big leap off the nearest interstate bridge.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I understand your point.
But it seems like some people want both accountability and truth and some people want neither? What's the solution?
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Oh, don't get me wrong--I'd prefer to have both.
But if it comes down to a choice, one or the other, then I'd take truth any day.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. But with both Parties' history since Nixon, we will probably get neither
My choice would be that the Democrats ignore the media and the Republicans and go for both. After all, there is some time before the next election and the Republicans are not going to stop blocking Obama's agenda anyway.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. If the truth exposes Illegalities..breaking of our laws..I don't know how one would justify
no accountability.

We are either a nation predicated on the rule of law..or we are not..

That is how i see it..maybe others have a different view..

You don't rob the bank and then tell the truth..well i was broke..and desperate, and my kids were starving, and i was losing my home, i lost my job ..so i should not be held accountable for the bank robbery..

We either live by the rule of law..or we don't..i see it pretty simply..no one is above the law..no one..

And if we accept any less.. we are a banana republic..and no longer the democracy we thought we were.

The Germans who committed war crimes were held accountable..were they not?? And it was our country that signed onto holding them accountable.

Should we go exonerate them now ..saying..opps..we didn't really mean it?
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. Cute false opposition.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Cute?
How so?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. "fucking stupid"?
Why?
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Such is the default state of most false dilemmas. (nt)
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Interesting.
Can you elaborate further?
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. From a pragmatic standpoint - No.
We've created a pattern of letting top officials know that they probably won't be convicted even IF it's public knowledge that they committed crimes, and that if they are convicted, they will be pardoned. This happened when we refused to investigate Reagan, it's been happening ever since. There are no consequences for wrong-doing if you are high enough up, because those in power act like it's "bad manners" to prosecute those in power.

This creates a culture that promotes criminal behavior and corruption, and it allows repeat offenders to go back into power each time their party is in power.

We don't need more of this:

9/11 Commission Vice Chair
Lee Hamilton. Hamiltion was chairman of the House Select Committee investigating the Iran-contra affair. Despite being shown ample evidence against Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush, he did not probe their wrongdoing, explaining later on PBS 'Frontline,' that he did not think it would have been 'good for the country' to put the public through another impeachment trial.

How different would our country be if Hamilton HAD prosecuted Reagan and Bush I? Prosecution at that time would not have been about "looking backward." It would have been entirely about looking forward.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. NO!
We tried that with Kennedy. Again with Iran-Contra. It. Does. not. work.

I'll take accountability with whatever truth we can extract.

-Hoot
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
12. I'm not sure that one can exist without the other.
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rustydog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
13. No, The Nazis needed to be held accountable for their actions,
Edited on Sun Apr-26-09 01:34 PM by rustydog
Richard Nixon needed to be held accountable for his actions and so do Bush,Cheny, Rumsfeld,Rice and the torture memo enablers must be investigated and held accountable for THEIR actions.

Truth is always there no matter what people say. We know the truth, lets get to Accountability for that truth.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
16. Not when you can have both ...
at a lower price.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
17. The Peggy Noonan response put the hook in me
The whole world knows what we did wrong yet, almost half of Americans polled think torture is OK under some circumstances. I wonder if they really know what happened??
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
18. We can't afford that trade
the nature of this truth is such that accountability is required of us, in the interest of both credibility in the world and the future of rule of law here.
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ProgressIn2008 Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
23. I have to say no. Truth without accountability would undermine the importance of that truth.
That's how it is now -- evidence is coming out: who okay'd what, who knew what and how and when.

And yet, the frog is being boiled, I think, to a level of increasing moral numbness. We're getting *used to hearing about our elites torturing, knowing about torture, or covering up torture*, as sick as that is. As sick as that is. The headlines are less and less of a surprise, now that we've heard so much. And as the headlines are less and less of a surprise, the debate about torture escalates -- what it really means, whether our elites should be culpable for torture or its cover-up, what we can do about it politically, what kind of "investigation" there is allowed to be.

I tend to think your scenario is rather like where we are now: no accountability, no matter what horrific details we discover. And what kind of place is that, and what kind of society would be in that place?
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
24. Maybe that is just the way Ms. Noonan was "raised to believe"
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
25. Ever seen someone try to change their bet after the game is over?
that is what this is. They (DC) are trying to put forth a different offer and trying to blackmail the Dems to not do anything because some of their people will go down.

Fine. All are accountable.
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