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garthranzz Donating Member (983 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 05:30 PM
Original message
A Nation of Mengeles and Simon Legrees

When we allow others to torture in our name...
When we make excuses for those who torture in our name...
When we allow pundits and cowards to justify torture in our name...
When we make politics of torture in our name...
When we allow moral hollowness to hide torture in our name...
When we make truth expendable to fear and thus torture in our name...

When empty phrases - 'enhanced interrogation,' 'national security, etc.' - mask the evil of torture in our name...

We do what the Nazis did...
We do what the Stalinists did...
We do what the slaveowners did...

And if we do not demand accountability, if we do not demand the rule of law - let all those who authorized, let all those who knew and were silent - let them face the consequences, be it jail or ignominy - if we do not believe that we cannot be free without truth and we cannot be moral without justice,

then we are not innocent bystanders, ignorant citizens, manipulated pawns,

we are complicit, we are accomplices, we are the ones who did not protest, who stood silently by,
and we will have become not in metaphor, but in fact
a nation of Mengeles
a nation of Simon Legrees

You cannot face evil and be neutral.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. More fucking hysteria with the same goddam theme. What bullshit.
We did NOT do what the Nazis did, nor the Stalinists nor slave owners nor Mengele.

Yes, we tortured some prisoners and it was wrong. Criminally wrong.

But get a grip.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It's not the quantity, it's the quality
Perhaps the quantity that the Nazis and the Stalinists did was greater, but the quality of what was done was right out of Dr. Mengele's book.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. No it wasn't
We evidently waterboarded (water tortured, if you prefer) people, or kept them from sleeping for days or exposed them to creepy insects.

Mengle sewed live people together, forced them to drink boiling water, used live humans in hyper/hypobaric chamber experiments, amputated limbs needlessly, etc. Whatever our people did isn't even in the same league as him. Maybe we were playing A ball, but he's in the majors.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Thank you. Finally someone with a sense of history.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. nope. not accurate.
neither in quality or quantity. And not even frickin' close to what Memgele did or what the Japanese did. More like what the French did in Algeria or what Spain did under Franco. Yes, it's horrible, but no it's not the equivalent of what happened under Stalin or Hitler. The differences far exceed the similarities.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. It did not reach the same degree, you're absolutely right
It was also different in that what the Nazis did was premeditated. However, I believe we were HEADED that way. Do you even DOUBT we were headed there?? Have you been listening to the last president for the past 8 years, Dick Cheney?
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Here's the problem with your analysis
There were 91 CIA interrogation tapes destroyed. The * administration feared that the information on those tapes was so horrible that Americans would turn against them if it was found out what had happened.

If water-boarding was so successful why then did we have to do it 183 times in 1 month to one man? All reports from many involved say that nothing was gained by it. If this is the case then we could have prosecuted these bastards like we did the guys in the first Trade Center bombings.

I think it is too early to assume we know everything they did.

Now is it a fair comparison to Mengele? Well, perhaps...there were Dr's and Psychiatrist who stood by and approved what was being done, making sure the prisoners didn't die so they could be tortured again and again.

These are not just simply crimes they are war crimes that can be punishable by death.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. oh, for pity's sake. I find the hyperbole and breast beating
as fascinating as the outright denial. The comparison to Mengele is, on its face, ludicrous. If this can be compared to Mengele then so can the French, the Spanish, the Argentinans not mention a few score more. Again, it's important to find out exactly what was done, to face it and to punish those responsible for war crimes, but this false equivalency is pernicious and it diminishes crimes and horrors that were far worse than what this country committed. And I say that from a historical perspective.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Let's take Mengele out of the discussion
Please answer this question for me...
Why did many older Jewish American citizens pack up and leave America during the last 8 years?

It wasn't over hysteria.....it was because they saw history repeating itself. They saw the beginning of the Nazi war and hate machine repeating itself in the USA. The first time many of them did not head the warning signs.....this time they were taking no chances.

Do you honestly believe those 91 CIA torture tapes are only of waterboarding? If so why destroy them?



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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. first of all, you need to actually provide some evidence that sizable
numbers (whatever the definition of that is) of Jewish Americans left the U.S. over the last 8 years. Secondly, even were it true, it hardly provides evidence for the thesis that the crimes committed under bushco, were the equivalent os the crimes committed under Stalin or Hitler.

I don't know what was on those tapes. Neither do you. That said, I'm of the belief that the waterboarding was only the tip of the iceberg.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. The crimes under Stalin and Hitler started somewhere
....they didn't just all of a sudden blossom into the horrendous murder and torture that we now know of. The point is they were given a venue which considered human rights an inconvenience....and that is what the * admin did and many of the Jewish population saw the ugly truth....if nothing else (whether it can be proved in hard evidence or not) it was a red flag....


Well at least we agree on something...yes you are correct we don't know what's on those tapes but whatever it "was" it was catastrophic

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. yes, of course they started somewhere, but that's not the discussion
the OP started. Furthermore, the concept of human rights was a very thin one, not just under Stalin, but historically in that region. There wasn't a history of human rights extensions or protections.

You provide absolutely zero evidence for your claim about older Jews in this country fleeing and yet insist that this uncofirmed by ANY evidence phenomenon, is a red flag. What sense does that make?

We need to get to the bottom of what happened with torture in this country under bushco. Hysterical false claims and self-indulgent breast beating, don't further that goal.
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Psychic Consortium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. garthranzz, excellent post.
Right on.

The torture was done in our name, on our dime.
Can we now do the right thing?
Is the will there to investigate and prosecute?
If not, we face some very bad karma.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. what histrionics. good grief.
this isn't facing up to the truth. It's self-indulgent. We haven't done what the Nazis did or the Stalinists. A sense of proportion isn't justification..
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. So when will you be self-immolating in front of a government structure of your choice?
If you aren't planning on that, please tell us what brave and noble deeds you have already undertaken to "protest" this behavior.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
9. i agree with you
we must have accountability. must.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. Let's look at what Mengele did:
Mengele's experiments also included attempts to change eye color by injecting chemicals into children's eyes, various amputations of limbs and other brutal surgeries. Rena Gelissen's account of her time in Auschwitz details certain experiments performed on female prisoners around October 1943. Mengele would experiment on the chosen girls, performing sterilization and shock treatments. Most of the victims died, either due to the experiments or later infections. According to a website, "Once Mengele's assistant rounded up 14 pairs of Roma twins during the night. Mengele placed them on his polished marble dissection table and put them to sleep. He then injected chloroform into their hearts, killing them instantly. Mengele then began dissecting and meticulously noting each and every piece of the twins' bodies."<4>

At Auschwitz, Mengele did a number of twin studies. After the experiment was over, these twins were usually murdered and their bodies dissected. He supervised an operation by which two Gypsy children were sewn together to create conjoined twins; the hands of the children became badly infected where the veins had been resected, this also caused gangrene.<4>

The subjects of Mengele's research were better fed and housed than ordinary prisoners and were, for the time being, safe from the gas chambers.<8> When visiting his child subjects, he introduced himself as "Uncle Mengele" and offered them sweets. Some survivors remember that despite his grim acts, he was also called "Mengele the protector".<9>

The book Children of the Flames, by Lucette Matalon Lagnado and Shiela Cohn Dekel, chronicles Mengele's medical experimental activities on approximately 3,000 twins who passed through the Auschwitz death camp during World War II until its liberation at the end of the war. Only around 26 pairs of the twins survived; 60 years later, they came forward about the special privileges they were given in Auschwitz owing to Mengele's interest in twins, and how as a result they have suffered, as the children who survived his medical experiments and injections.<4>

In addition to his studies on twins he did a number of horrifying experiments. Once he burned several Jewish prisoners in a gigantic oven to test how long it would take for the human body to get first, second and third degree burns at certain temperatures. He also tested how much force it would require to break a (living) human skull.

Auschwitz prisoner Alex Dekel has said: "I have never accepted the fact that Mengele himself believed he was doing serious work not from the slipshod way he went about it. He was only exercising his power. Mengele ran a butcher shop major surgeries were performed without anesthesia. Once, I witnessed a stomach operation Mengele was removing pieces from the stomach, but without any anesthetic. Another time, it was a heart that was removed, again, without anesthesia. It was horrifying. Mengele was a doctor who became mad because of the power he was given. Nobody ever questioned him why did this one die? Why did that one perish? The patients did not count. He professed to do what he did in the name of science, but it was a madness on his part".<[br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele
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