I don't even want one of the men who covered up the murder of JFK IN my party

[Philosoraptor]

Of course dear old arlen 'magic bullet' specter isn't the only asshole leftover from the Warren Commission whitewash, they all went on to fabulous political careers, all the men who were in on Kennedy's murder and the ensuing cover up.

Fuck arlen specter, he's the magic bullet guy forever in my mind, I'll always remember him standing there lying about the Kennedy murder, I hold grudges, long grudges, and grudges over the silliest things, like the murder of Democratic President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.



Here is the magic, unused bullet, like new, which according to dear Democrat arlen was the single bullet which killed Kennedy, and was found on the stretcher bearing the dead president. This single bullet, which never hit anything obviously, is the the famous arlen specter magic bullet. See how magic it looks?

[lib2DaBone]

1. wasn't he also on the 911 commission?

..nothing to see here folks..move along. The buildings fell down all by themselves..

[Freddie Stubbs]

21. No, he was not:

http://www.9-11commission.gov/

Sorry to ruin your conspiracy theory.

[CatWoman]

37. christ

I see that ugly ass dog is back!!

why don't you take him to the pound?

[Fire1]

50. Shame shame! That doggie is a cutie just like your kitties!

[Swagman]

121. how do you make your cute pussies wink ?

[Runcible Spoon]

159. !

:thumbsup:

[lib2DaBone]

209. No.. no problem.. you didn't ruin my theory. Thanks for the link

I just confused Arlen Specter with that other fine, outstanding Executive Director... Phillip Zelikow.

(snip)
Former Republican Senator and current 9-11 commissioner Slade Gorton worked with Zelikow on both the Markle Foundation Task Force and the National Commission on Federal Election Reform. In addition, Condoleezza Rice, Dick Cheney, and (Deputy Secretary of Defense) Paul Wolfowitz were all members of his Aspen Strategy Group.

[Sebastian Doyle]

43. No

That was a different bunch of fucking treasonous liars protecting the Bush Crime Family. :evilfrown:

[Echo In Light]

2. No matter the circumstance, in my mind his name is forever synonymous w/"magic bullet theory"

Some tags just stick more than others

[cali]

3. Does the Kennedy family feel the same way as you do?

I don't embrace Arlen the Newly Minted Dem, either but not because of Kennedy. He's a vicious and opportunistic little prick, and I haven't forgiven him for Clarence Thomas and the the way he treated Anita Hill.

[Philosoraptor]

4. I wouldn't know.

[MajorChode]

6. That's a much better reason for holding a grudge

There are also others.

The reason Spector switched parties is because he probably wouldn't survive a GOP primary battle. His reasons were entirely self serving.

[HamdenRice]

32. Maybe they do. A few years ago, a book, articles claimed RFK thought it was inside job

I'm too lazy this morning to track it down, but a few years back a study of RFK & JFK revealed that RFK came to believe that JFK was assassinated from within the government.

That doesn't prove he's right. It doesn't prove that the Kennedy's don't like Specter.

But the overall picture they painted was that the Kennedy family in general believe the assassination was an "inside job."

A few articles also said that most of the subsequent presidents leaned toward inside job as well.

[Fire1]

55. It matters not to me if the Kennedy's like him. The man

is an opportunist and I don't appreciate what he did to Anita Hill thus we ended up with Clarence Thomas. He's flip flopped on EFCA which tells me he gives less than a damned about the American worker. Supporting health care reform will not earn his redemption and does not magically make him a true democrat.

[Samantha]

68. I believe that as well

I had pretty much come to that conclusion over a period of time, but this cemented it for me:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3120010&mesg_id=3121565

Sam

[defendandprotect]

93. True . . .

RFK had a personal contact -- someone I think who frequently was used by intelligence --
and he went in immediately after the assassination and after 24 hours he reported back that
it was such a strong and actively violent coup that it was impossible to infiltrate it.

It's also said that the very night of the assassination, people in DC generally knew who
the players were and the names were being mentioned clearly.

People knew then and then know now -- but up to this moment no one has had the power to
overturn it or make very essential evidence/facts known to the general public.

They also say that along with all of the other suspicious deaths of witnesses -- that a
100 or more lawyers in Washington, DC were killed during this period.

Again -- people did know right away -- and there's a famous book that was written supposedly
by someone from French intelligence .... "Farewell, America" . . . think that's it --
Hepburn?

Beyond simple human courtesy, I don't understand why any Democrat would have anything to do
with Specter???

[Cetacea]

191. Correct. You can read "Farewell America" here:

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell00.html

Jackie and Bobby embraced these findings. And this was written when evidence was fresh and many people hadn't been "accidented" yet. It was in fact written by French Intel agent.

Europeans in general laughed at the Warren Commission conclusions. So did most Americans come to think of it.

[Cetacea]

193. "Farewell America" can be read here:

As mentioned up thread by D+P this book was written by a French Intel agent and was written relatively soon after the assassination, before tine and many dead witnesses muddied the waters.

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell00.html

[stopbush]

194. Why don't you put forward your list of people who have been

"accidented" since JFK was shot? Be sure to include the DATE they were accidented on, complete with the year. I'll give you 5 points for everyone on your list who died within 5 years of the shooting. I'll give you another 5 points for anyone who died from something mysterious, but you'll need to produce an autopsy report to support your claim.

The people who were "accidented" decades later can be left off, thank you.

[Cetacea]

197. It's been well documented. Unlike you, Vince, I am not sitting at home

collecting royalties.
:)

[stopbush]

200. So, you're a chickenshit, then.

I know that fanciful list has been well documented. it just doesn't mean that it's true.

I was hoping you'd be able to provide a few names of people who were "accidented" so that I might provide medical evidence that challenges your assertions.

Since you don't have the guts or the knowledge to back up your loony CTs with facts, I'll let your inaction speak for itself.

[jberryhill]

123. Well, let's make sure we go with the dead brother's alleged opinion....

Because the living brother must be stupid or a coward:



So, which do you lean toward about Ted - stupid or coward?

[stopbush]

127. RFK and Jackie both accepted the WCR findings.

Why none of the CTers see fit to bring that up 'tis a puzzlement. Here's an AP story from 1968:

Los Angeles, March 25 (AP) - Senator Robert Kennedy met a barrage of
questions today on whether if elected President he would open the
United States archives to reveal details of the assassination of his
brother, President John Kennedy.

"I would not reopen the Warren Commission report". Mr.
Kennedy told students at San Fernando Valley state college. "I have
seen everything that's in there. I stand by the Warren Commission."
He did not elaborate on whether he would open the archives.

Several times the senator, campaigning for the Democratic
presidential nomination, tried to ignore questions from students. He
became obviously more distressed as they persisted. Finally, he said:
"your manners overwhelm me. Go ahead, go ahead, ask your questions."

A student shouted: will you open the archives?"

Mr. Kennedy said: "Nobody is more interested than I in
knowing who is responsible for the death of President Kennedy."

An aide said it was the first public statement of this kind.
The Warren Commission found that Lee Harvey Oswald alone assassinated
President Kennedy. (End)

This statement was made 3 months before RFK himself was assassinated. To allege that RFK "came to believe there was a conspiracy" flies in the face of his own public statements at the time.

[Cetacea]

190. Right. And Obama really believes torture was a "mistake' and not a crime

Such is politics. Perhaps the Kennedy's want to go on living.

[stopbush]

192. Do you really believe crap like that?

And how did RFK embracing the WCR help him "go on living?" IIRC, he was dead three months after he made his WCR-supporting statement as reported in the AP.

If we follow the CT thinking, RFK was shot by agents of the JFK CT crowd because he refused to disparage the WCR and to reopen the investigation into JFK'S death. It's all there for you: "See. RFK says he supports the Warren Commission, and three months later, he's shot dead. And you're going to tell me Sirhan wasn't an agent of the JFK CT crowd? How naive are you?"

Tinfoiler.

[Cetacea]

196. Welcome back, Vincent.

You only seem to surface when JFK assassination threads come up, and then you drag out your copy of Vince's book and spout it's talking points.

Actually, RFK stated that he was going to find "the bastards who killed my brother" a few days before he was shot.

Brainless.

[stopbush]

201. Please show me the source of your RFK quote above.

If you can't provide a source, I'll assume you just made it up.

Thanks.

[stopbush]

206. In reality, I've been a DU member pretty much since this site was launched

and I post all the time on a variety of subjects.

Perhaps because I'm a long time member I feel it's necessary to slap down the loony CTs that infect this site from time to time, and no CT is loonier or more embarrassing than those surrounding the JFK assassination. I worry what a casual visitor to this site would think if the idiocies that you and others toss out in regards to the JFK killing weren't rebuffed by the rational members here. Some of us owe it to DU to keep a check on the tinfoil crowd that rears its head whenever the opportunity presents itself.

As far as calling me "Vincent" - I'll wear that as a badge of honor! I only wish I had the man's integrity and dedication for getting at the truth of things.

BTW - I still see no FACTUAL responses here to any of the questions posed by those of us who take hard evidence over hapless exegesis any day of the week. Care to jump in with some evidence to back your fantasies, or is that too much to ask?

[MajorChode]

5. It's just a matter of who you believe

The Discovery Channel shot a documentary on the subject and found it not only quite plausible, but it fit the exact circumstances of the wounds in question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_bullet_theory#Discovery_Channel.27s_reenactment_of_bullet_CE399.27s_path

Furthermore the bullet is NOT pristine, regardless of how some characterize it. In fact, it's quite consistent with the tests conducted by the Discovery Channel, which came closer to duplicating the exact shot than any other tests done previously.


So if you believe Oliver Stone's version of events (which are mostly fictional) on the subject, or the numerous tin-foil hat books on the subject, or the best empirical data on the subject.

[Fumesucker]

8. The Discovery Channel?

That's good enough for me, I trust the M$M to be completely unbiased and accurate.

[jberryhill]

12. Because they make up their own geometry?

Please point out the bias in this short clip:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5933278137045380376&ei=qkr4SZftJYrIrgLPisDWAw

[Fumesucker]

16. You misunderstand..

I was agreeing with you, the M$M is to be completely trusted, they will always tell us the truth.

As does the government.

[jberryhill]

28. Sarcasm is soooo clever /nt

[MajorChode]

49. Sometimes, until it's taken one step too far

Then it simply becomes asinine drivel.

[Avalux]

9. self-delete

[Octafish]

13. Discovery Channel was channeling J Edgar Hoover.

Oliver Stone based his movie on the investigation of New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison, who uncovered more truth than Discovery Channel and all the lying sack of shit name-callers and disinformation artistes since November 22, 1963 put together. Learn how here: A Short History of Conspiracy Theory

Regarding the Magic Bullet. That image you selected shows evidence that the bullet was fired. What it was fired into is something soft -- softer even than the "human-like" gelatin model used by Discovery Channel.



JFK Exhibit F-294

Photo of 5 bullets fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle: (left to right) the "magic bullet" (CE 399), two bullets fired into cotton wadding(CE 572), a bullet fired through a goat rib (CE 853), and a bullet fired through the wrist of a human cadaver (CE 856).

SOURCE: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=45739

The magic bullet appears to have been fired into cotton wadding.

That is just one reason that makes me think J Edgar Hoover and the government's "best evidence" for their case is bogus.

EDIT: Removed "Quit spreading bullshit and denigrating truth-seekers, MajorChode." I am sorry to have implied that you aren't entitled to your opinion.

[jberryhill]

14. "Quit spreading bullshit and denigrating truth-seekers" - O RLY?

And you could consider not being a conversational bully.

The poster said it was a matter of whom one chose to believe. Which you demonstrate.

I don't believe that truth needs the protection of people like you telling others to shut up.

Incidentally, would you mind explaining how one gets a bullet into Connally's back without going through JFK? Thank you.

[Octafish]

25. Sorry. Didn't mean to hurt anybody's feelings. You, though, are one to talk.

jberryhill, I am so sorry. I would never want to tell anyone on DU to shut up. I just hate it when someone smears Jim Garrison, the only government official who actually tried to prosecute the killers of President Kennedy, not just "investigate and explain" the past of the designated patsy.

As for the wounds to Gov. Connally, there were more than three shots because there was more than one assassin. That's what the evidence shows. That's what history will remember. Here're details:

Regarding JFK Assassination—Who do You Trust: Poppy Bush or Your Own Eyes?

BTW: You never answered my question way back when about why you defended George Bush's "My Pet Goat" moment. No matter, a new question for you: Do you always support the government's position on controversial subjects?

[jberryhill]

27. The answer is simple - "no"

Now, can you please answer my question?

How do you get a bullet into Connally's back without going through JFK. What was the position of that shooter?

Jim Garrison had an interesting habit of claiming that everyone who disagreed with him was part of the conspiracy. Good to see others carrying on that proud tradition.

[Octafish]

142. The answer is there were four or more bullets fired.

That would more closely match the facts than Arlen Specter's hypothesis.

[jberryhill]

148. Non-responsive to the question

What was the trajectory of the bullet that hit Connally's ribcage, and where did it come from without going through Kennedy.

You have not proposed a model. When you propose a model, then its fit to the facts can be evaluated.

[stopbush]

177. Then take my challenge in post #174.

[jberryhill]

134. I see... you just demand answers to your questions

But that apparently only works one way.

[Octafish]

143. Right. Like who was impersonating Oswald in Mexico City?

This guy pretended to be Oswald a few weeks before the assassination. After the President's murder, the CIA told the FBI they had photos of Oswald and tape recordings made from taps on the Soviet embassy that indicated Oswald wanted to talk with the KGB hit team boss. A short time later, they claimed they had destroyed the tapes as a matter of routine. Sure sounds like CIA wanted to set up a patsy for more than the assassination. They wanted a pretext for war with Cuba and the Soviets.

Oswald in Mexico City

Photograph of an unidentified individual captured on photosurveillance cameras outside the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City in the fall of 1963.According to the Warren Commission, Lee Harvey Oswald traveled to Mexico City in the fall of 1963, in search of a visa for travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union. He failed in that effort and returned to Dallas, where 7 weeks later he shot President Kennedy.

Allegations of a Cuban or Soviet conspiracy, based on events and stories related to this visit, bloomed in the aftermath of the assassination. They were apparently instrumental in the creation of the Warren Commission, and over the years more and more has trickled out regarding a trip which ultimately remains enigmatic.

The record on Mexico City is wildly muddled and mysterious. Was Oswald impersonated there? Who is the "mystery man" caught by photo surveillance? Why are CIA records on the trip at sharp variance with participant's memories? Were the witnesses who reported events indicating a Communist conspiracy telling the truth, spinning false tales, or perhaps reporting on staged incidents? Did Oswald, or someone pretending to be him, threaten the life of JFK in the Cuban Embassy?

Despite the mysteries, one thing is certain. The events in Mexico City had a profound effect on the federal government's response to the assassination. President Johnson invoked fears of nuclear war in putting together the Warren Commission, finally enlisting a recalcitrant Earl Warren by telling him "what Hoover told me about a little incident in Mexico City."

SOURCE w Links and Details: http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Oswald_in_Mexico_City

Right you are.There are many questions in this case that I would like to see answered. I don't know all the answers. Unlike the Warren Commission and its supporters, I don't pretend to know.

Here's another question for you: Are you the same jberryhill who posts on the Amazing Randi's forum?

[jberryhill]

144. You are a question behind

I asked you about the trajectory of the bullet that struck Connally in the back. How did it get there without going through Kennedy.

I post under my real name in many forums, and don't hide behind pseudonyms, big man.

Ted Kennedy:

Stupid, Corrupt, or Coward:



You care more about the truth of JFK than his brother, right?

[Octafish]

158. How do you find time to post in so many forums and be a lawyer, too?

So many interests, from Ford Mavericks to debunking government conspiracies. Are you, like, paid to post?

Regarding the bullet and trajectory: I answered. The evidence shows there were four or more bullets fired that day. That means there was more than one gunman and, thus, a conspiracy behind the assassination.

Regarding Ted Kennedy: I respect him. I also believe he has never spoken publicly about what he knows about the assassination of his brothers. Those are people and subjects about whom and which I never joke. Why you chose to do so is obvious.

[jberryhill]

160. "Are you, like, paid to post?"

Classic. Ah, yes, anyone who does not agree with you is a paid shill of the conspiracy.

It's so important for us paid agents to "keep the lid on things at DU" that I make a fortune posting here.

I'm self employed and ever since Firefox introduced the tabbed browser, it's pretty easy to find things to do with time between other things, especially since I quit smoking.

But thanks for asking and, no, I don't know a thing about Ford Mavericks, Research Ranger.

I'm not joking about Ted Kennedy, though. Apparently, he has had no difficulty working with the man that you and others cannot "permit" to join the Democratic Party because Specter has exercised Jedi mind control over the country for decades.

But I'm not surprised that you have absolutely no model to offer as an alternative.

[Octafish]

161. My model is whatever alternative to the NAZI reality foisted by JFK's murderers.

Regarding my question,another poster who frequents Amazing Randi also posts on DU. He said posting on the Internet was his dream job.

Thanks for your observation, jberryhill. I don't know, and I don't care, if you are a paid shill. What I do care about is what this country has become. And I know what to do about it. That is, spread Truth.

Here's a fact curiously missing from American history and any mention of the Warren Commission: Two of its members were directly responsible for the rise of post-war fascism. Allen Dulles, as a top official of the OSS and CIA, incorporated NAZI war criminals into the CIA from its founding. John McCloy, as High Commissioner for Germany, allowed Klaus Barbie and who-knows-who-else to escape justice. Of course, both men were also barons of Wall Street and Beltway Insiders. And we all know what that means today.

[jberryhill]

162. Blah...blah...paid shill....blah...blah

Where did the bullet that hit Conally in the rib cage come from?

Can you take a moment to spread a little truth on that subject?

The thread is not about me, and not about recruiting Germans after WWII. The thread is about Arlen Specter and whether a SBT trajectory is plausible.

[stopbush]

178. You're wasting your time with Octafish. I've been through it before

with this tinfoiler. No way their opinion will change, no matter how many facts you present, no matter how many simple, logical questions you ask.

Ask Octa where she got her belief that "the evidence shows 4 shots were fired." You'll find that she believes the dictabelt tape recorded a fourth shot, when that belief has long been scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be untrue.

[jberryhill]

204. "No way their opinion will change"

I don't even know what its opinion is, since Octafish has proposed no shooter location or weapon for the wounds to Connally.

SBT critics will talk about anything other than what trajectory was required to cause these wounds. It is remarkable that we go to "who visited the Soviet embassy in Mexico" from "why do you believe the SBT is incorrect".

But the "paid shill" thing is a real bonus.

[defendandprotect]

98. No . . . it's a question of distortion of information/evidence . .

by this reformed Discovery/History Channel now owned by Clear Channel --

Discovery brought Americans "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" -- which had been
barred to American viewers. As the final segments were reached -- citing
LBJ as one of the primary plotters, a few notables -- Jimmy Carter among them --
protested and the final series was pulled.

In fact, I hear that the tapes were confiscated. SOME of the material continues
to be available on YouTube.

As for your question re Connally . . . since the supposed shooter was doing so from
a height, it would be possible to shoot Connally without bullet hitting or going thru JFK.
Just as it was possible to hit JFK without harming Jackie.
It is supposed, however, that Connally's being shot was an accident.
In fact, it was supposed to be Sen. Yarborough who was to be in the car with JFK --
according to the orginal plans.

Again, as I said the "Magic Bullet" is an impossibility and here's why . . .

The whole "Magic Bullet" myth is that it first went thru President Kennedy's
back and out his throat before entering Governor Connally's body, hitting him
in a number of places.

Pres. Kennedy's neck wound had NO EXIT – which was made clear at the autopsy -
and doctors at Parkland describe it as an entrance wound.

The wound in President Kennedy’s back was actually in his right shoulder which was
way below the neck wound. AND IT WAS AT A 45 DEGREE DOWNWARD ANGLE.

The shoulder wound also had NO EXIT -- also made clear at military autopsy.

Doctors at Parkland, nurses at Parkland – all personnel who had a view of the president’s
body describe a large EXIT wound in the right rear of his head – roughly the size of a fist.

Just some background on the “Magic Bullet” – Specter didn’t invent that cover-up,
but he delivered it – and protected the cover up with it.

Those who have changed America thru political violence over the past decades delivered
fascism and clearly intend to deliver a third world America as they harvest slave labor
all over the world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

There were also more fragments - by weight -- taken from Gov. Connally's wounds than
missing from the "Magic Bullet" . . . and Connally died with fragments still in his
body!

[stopbush]

219. What's that about the autopsy?

defendandprotect says:

"Pres. Kennedy's neck wound had NO EXIT – which was made clear at the autopsy -
and doctors at Parkland describe it as an entrance wound."

Oh, really? Here's what the autopsy report ACTUALLY says about the wound to JFK's throat:

"The other missile entered the right superior posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right side of the neck. This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of the neck."

And just to be clear, defend and protect, here's a few definitions from Webster's:

posterior: situated behind

anterior: situated before or toward the front

The autopsy report says the single bullet ENTERED JFK FROM BEHIND and EXITED JFK THROUGH THE FRONT.

And you call yourself a truth seeker. Right-o!

[stopbush]

221. What's that about the weight of the bullet and the fragments found in Connally?

defendandprotect sez:

"There were also more fragments - by weight -- taken from Gov. Connally's wounds than
missing from the "Magic Bullet" . . . and Connally died with fragments still in his
body!"

Oh, really?

The bullets Oswald used were manufactured in 1954.

100 bullets were pulled from the 4 lots of bullets manufactured at that time and weighed.

The bullets weighed from 159.80 grains for the lightest bullet to 161.50 grains for the heaviest, with an average weight of 160.844 grains and a
median weight of 160.80 grains.

The FBI laboratory also weighed 3 bullets from the lots and found them to weigh 160.85 grains, 161.1 grains, and 161.5 grains, with an
average weight of 161.15 grains.

Since bullet CE399 (ie: the 'magic bullet') weighed 158.6 grains when found, it can be assumed that it lost between 1.2 grains and 2.9 grains,
with a mean probability of 2.2 grains.

So the question is this: did the fragments found in Connally - including the fragments that were still in his body when he died - weigh over the maximum that they could have considering the varying weights of the bullets? Was there more than 2.9 grains of fragments in Connally's body from the bullet?

" Of the two fragments recovered from the Governor's
wrist, the larger was found to weigh 0.5 grain (5H72).
The smaller one plus the flakes of metal remaining in
his wrist might account for a like weight. This gives
us a total of about one grain for the wrist. What
about the chest and thigh fragments? Dr. Shires, who
noticed the chest fragment on X-ray, never estimated
its weight, but he spoke of it as being the same
general size as the fragment embedded in the femur.
The weight of this fragment was estimated as "a
fraction of a grain, maybe, a tenth of a grain" (6H106,
111). If we add to these two fragments the flake
observed just under the skin in the thigh wound, we
have a total weight of perhaps 0.5 grain in the thigh
and chest. Adding this to the wrist fragments yields a
total weight for all observed fragments of 1.5 grains.
Clearly then, Dr. Shaw was mistaken when he testified
that "there seems to be more than three grains of metal
missing...in the wrist" (4H113). The upshot of all this
medical testimony with respect to weight loss is
inconclusive. About 1.5 grains of metal were found in
Governor Connally's wounds.

"An unfired projectile like 399 might be expected
to weigh about 161 grains (3H430). Subtracting the
weight of CE 399 (158.6 grains) from this figure yields
a possible weight loss of up to 2.5 grains. Hence,
simply from the point of view of total weight, the
various fragments in Connally's body could have come
from CE 399. The critics have been wrong in contending
that weight loss alone precludes CE 399 from being the
bullet that wounded Governor Connally."

Source: Josiah Thompson, SIX SECONDS IN
DALLAS, pages 147-151.

also -

ref: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/wound3.txt

[MajorChode]

41. The best opinions are usually based on empirical evidence

I've seen all the evidence from the test firings you're referring, but there's an obvious problem with them. If you fire a 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridge directly at the wrist of a human cadaver, the muzzle velocity is around 2,000 fps. However, that's not what happened. The bullet traveled through Kennedy's neck, into Connally's back, and through quite a bit more flesh before it impacted his rib, exited, and then went through his wrist. There's one helluva difference between a bullet traveling at about 1,700-1,800 fps and a bullet traveling about 900 fps. That's why the cadaver test and the goat rib test is next to worthless.

As I said, Oliver Stone's movie was based more on fiction than anything that could possibly be construed as factual. The reality was Jim Garrison's trial was a joke and the movie account wasn't even within a cab ride of anything that can be called reality. The only so-called truth that resulted from his investigation involved witness testimony (that was completely unreliable), and he couldn't even manage to convince a jury of his nonsense.

The problem I have with many of the so-called "truth-seekers" you mentioned is they aren't seeking the truth. They are seeking any and all evidence and innuendos that support their preconceived belief. As such they ignore and/or suppress any evidence to the contrary, which is why their conclusions don't survive objective peer review.

[happydreams]

52. How the fuck do you know what "many of the truth-seekers" motivations

are?? You claim to be science personified then barf up that shit in your last paragraph. What a fucking joke.

[MajorChode]

56. How do you know your mother loves you?

If you're the least bit perceptive, it's not hard to make such determinations. Jim Garrison was a shameless self promoter. It's not all that difficult to see what his motivations were.

For instance, just from your three sentences I can tell that you're probably one that is much more easily swayed by emotion than reason.

Have a nice day.

[happydreams]

60. So, employ empiricism to support your claims about Garrison. It is freepers

who most often resort to character assasination.

What the hell is it with you people who want to keep the public confused about this subject. The House Assasinations Committee in the 70's concluded that Kennedy was probably killed in a conspiracy. IMO they stopped pursuing the matter because so many witnesses ended up dead; one of these was Baron Mohrenshildts just before he was slated to testify. He was a mutual friend of both Oswald and Poppy Bush.

But you see this isn't about trying to prove Kennedy was killed in a conspiracy. This is about leaving the subject open to discussion; something your ilk are hell-bent in preventing.

[jberryhill]

65. "you people who want to keep the public confused about this subject"

Garrison would be proud. Yes, anyone who disagrees with you is part of the conspiracy, aren't they.

The HSCA concluded that Oswald killed JFK and that there was a high probability of a second shooter.

The second part of that conclusion was based entirely on the audio recording analysis which has been demonstrated to be incorrect. One of the things about scientific analysis is that it is based on open data which can be analyzed, re-analyzed, and reproduced. Such is the difference between scientific inquiry and dogma is that scientific findings can, and often are, revised. Dogma stays the same.

But the point under discussion here is Specter and the proposition that a single bullet caused an entry wound in the upper part of his back, through his throat, into Connally's rib cage, and then to his wrist and leg.

Since you do seem to be familiar with the HSCA proceedings, can you perhaps recall what the HSCA had to say on that subject?

[happydreams]

141. READ! .....

But you see this isn't about trying to prove Kennedy was killed in a conspiracy.

Get it??

[jberryhill]

146. On behalf of me and my "ilk", yes I get that

It is about calling Ted Kennedy stupid, corrupt, complicit or a coward.



Saying "The Single Bullet" trajectory is "impossible" or a "lie" is not "keeping a subject open for discussion".

In fact, it is those who dismiss "the magic bullet" and call the other people names who do not have an open mind to the possibility that the single bullet trajectory is possible, which has been computer modeled with a third-party verified model, and re-constructed using the same weapon, ammunition, geometry and anatomical analogs.

I believe that a single bullet can account for the Kennedy neck wound, the Connally body wounds, and the wrist and leg wound. I believe that is possible. My mind is open to that possibility, and I do not dismiss anyone who believes otherwise as a liar, dishonest, or other "ilk".

You do not believe it is possible. Your mind is closed to the possibility of it, and you are not open to discussion of it. Instead, you assert it is not possible, and make accusations that those who do not agree with you are small-minded.

[cherokeeprogressive]

100. "CONCLUDED that Kennedy was PROBABLY killed in a conspiracy"

[MinM]

205. Absolutely. In spite of the HSCA's predilection to 'rubber stamp' the Warren Report

Which even the original Warren Commission Members doubted.

Warren Commision Members expressed Doubt -- Ford changed final report

[stopbush]

133. Actually, the HSCA was ready to support the WCR/lone gunman when at the last minute

a team of National Academy scientists showed up with "evidence" that the dictabelt tape had recorded a fourth shot. The HSCA accepted this testimony as being true even though the officer (McClain) riding the motorcycle testified that he was not in the required spot on Elm Street to have recorded the shot being fired, and that the recording could not have been made from his motorcycle in the first place. On an 8 to 4 vote, the HSCA voted to accept the scientists' conclusions and to ignore Officer McClain's testimony.

Since 1976, researchers have synchronized all of the footage of the JFK motorcade that was shot by different people from different angles and have concluded without a doubt that the officer was correct and that he was not in the position to have recorded a "4th shot."

As the conclusion of the HSCA that a conspiracy probably took place rests entirely on a 4th shot, and as the only evidence they entertained to confirm that 4th shot was the Dictabelt recording, and as the analysis by the team of scientists at the time ERRED in placing the officer in a position to record a 4th shot, the conclusion by the HSCA that a conspiracy probably took place can be set aside as having no basis in reality.

BTW - lead HSCA investigator G. Robert Blakey later said, "If the acoustics come out that we made a mistake somewhere, I think that would end it." Despite serious criticism of the scientific evidence and the HSCA's conclusions, speculation regarding the Dictabelt and the possibility of a second gunman has persisted.

To my knowledge, Blakey has yet to admit the mistake, even though the evidence is overwhelmingly against the conclusion of the HSCA.

[defendandprotect]

99. Rather the reformed Discovery channel info is "fiction" . . .

First, there is no chain of evidence for the rifle -- there were a number of rifles
found on the sixth floor --

Second, There were also more fragments - by weight -- taken from Gov. Connally's wounds than
missing from the "Magic Bullet" . . . and Connally died with fragments still in his
body!


Again, as I said the "Magic Bullet" is an impossibility and here's why . . .

The whole "Magic Bullet" myth is that it first went thru President Kennedy's
back and out his throat before entering Governor Connally's body, hitting him
in a number of places.

Pres. Kennedy's neck wound had NO EXIT – which was made clear at the autopsy -
and doctors at Parkland describe it as an entrance wound.

The wound in President Kennedy’s back was actually in his right shoulder which was
way below the neck wound. AND IT WAS AT A 45 DEGREE DOWNWARD ANGLE.

The shoulder wound also had NO EXIT -- also made clear at military autopsy.

Doctors at Parkland, nurses at Parkland – all personnel who had a view of the president’s
body describe a large EXIT wound in the right rear of his head – roughly the size of a fist.

Just some background on the “Magic Bullet” – Specter didn’t invent that cover-up,
but he delivered it – and protected the cover up with it.

Those who have changed America thru political violence over the past decades delivered
fascism and clearly intend to deliver a third world America as they harvest slave labor
all over the world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[stopbush]

128. Wow. You're 100% wrong on everything you say in this post.

First off, chain of custody for the rifle was unbroken from the moment it was discovered. This fact is documented in the records of both the Dallas Police Department and the WCR.

Second, the fragments missing from the single bullet that were found in Connally were consistent with an amount that would have come from the single bullet.

So, you think the single bullet that was found on the gurney at Parkland was planted, do you? Then answer me this: how did the conspirators know to plant that particular round and get it planted at Parkland so quickly? How did they know to extract a specific weight of fragments from the bullet so that the weight missing from the expended shell found on the gurney made it consistent with the weight of the fragments found in Connally? Most important: how did they know in advance of any investigation whatsoever that other "real" evidence wouldn't appear that would put into question their "faked" evidence? If the assassination was truly the work of a team of shooters, how did the conspirators know within hours of the shooting how many bullets had hit both JFK and Connally and from how many different angles? In short, how did they know to plant evidence that would support a single shooter-shooting-from-the-TBD scenario?

And, a final question: if the conspirators went through all the trouble to engineer and plant a faked bullet, why on earth did they elect to plant it in a place where it could have just as easily never been found, or where if found, it could have been snatched away or tossed in the trash by someone not looking for evidence of the assassination, with the effect that the bullet would never make its way into the evidence gathered by law enforcement investigating the killing?

I won't even get into your misstatements about the entrance and exit wounds.

I think the above are fairly reasonable and logical questions to ask. Care to reply?

[MajorChode]

169. So much tinfoilhattery, so little time

I have seen quite a few tinfoilhatters in my day, and I have to say to your credit that you would unquestionably make the top 10 list. Some of the nonsense you spewed has been well debunked over and over. Where you got the rest of it is anyone's guess, but I suspect massive amounts of hard drugs were involved. At any rate, I reckon trying to reason with you would yield about as much fruit as trying to have a reasonable discussion with a street corner preacher about theology. However, I would certainly not be one to discourage you as the entertainment value alone is priceless.

[timtom]

213. The interesting thing about you and stopbush

is the tenacity and intensity with which you "debate" those whose perceptions differ from yours. The language is largely strident and replete with ad hominems and general terms of ridicule and dismissal.

I see nothing of a debate here, other than the "spewing" of facts.

It seems to reveal a sort of intentionality.

[stopbush]

214. Be fair. The language only gets strident after the CTers have refused

to answer simple questions. The non-CTers seem to have no problem whatsoever answering questions or challenging assertions posed by the CTers, and doing so by providing facts, not opinions or paranoia. Show me a single fact that has been put forward in this thread by a CTer outside of the fact that JFK was killed.

The ridicule and dismissal are hardly ad hominem. It's based on what the evidence shows in the JFK killing. The CTers have every opportunity and just as much right to present an evidentiary case for their theories, but they can't do so because the facts aren't on their side. Perceptions are not facts, and in the JFK killing, CTer perceptions are held IN SPITE OF the facts.

As far as spewing facts - from the looks of it, we are actually presenting facts of which 80% of our fellow DUser seem blissfully unaware, at least if this thread is any measure. And there is an intention - to put the facts out there to be debated. You seem like you want to blame us for presenting facts while you have no problem with the CTers presenting whatever fantasy they're pushing that week. You don't seem to feel cheated by the CTers inability to mount a fact-based defense of their positions. When a CTer says that David Ferrie died of cancer and I provide a link to his autopsy report showing that he died of a berry aneurysm am I being strident, and dismissive, or engaging in ridicule? Is David Ferrie's autopsy report a fact, or is it a perception? Perhaps you believe that the fact that he died of an aneurysm allows one to perceive that he died of cancer. I don't know, you tell me.

When numerous posters say that Oswald's paraffin tests came back negative for gunpowder traces when in fact they came back negative only for the test done on his right cheek but were positive for both hands, who is presenting facts and who is perceiving facts in a mendacious way? What do you think when DUer defendandprotect asserts that the police didn't even do a paraffin test? Is that the kind of "perception" that you believe is legitimate when the facts show the opposite? Again, you tell me.

As far as the intensity - yes, facts are intense and unforgiving things, aren't they? Funny how the facts in the JFK killing have a lone gunman bias to them.

[timtom]

216. It's all about tone...

[stopbush]

217. No, it's not.

Nice doesn't work with the CT crowd, not that the in-your-face works either. I know. I used to be a person who believed the JFK CTs. But at a certain point, I heard enough from both sides that I decided to investigate on my own. What I found was the the lone gunman/single bullet scenario was proved by overwhelming evidence. What I learned about the CTs is that they usually don't even get basic facts that shouldn't even be in question horribly wrong. Things like the seating position of JFK & Connally in the limo, which if they are accurate make the single bullet theory the only logical and factual option.

But the CTers don't care about facts. If you told them LBJ started WWII and tied it to the JFK killing, they'd believe it.

Tone has nothing to do with it. I see no more reason to use a nice tone with the JFK CTers than I do with a R defending the actions of W.

Speaking of tone, why don't I see you taking the CTers to task for the reputations and good names of people that they constantly smear with their fantasy based mud? People like LBJ, who wasn't any kind of co-conspirator and who did great things for this country. Don't the CTers know that they are joining hands with the worst kinds of racists when they disparage LBJ by asserting he had a hand in wanting JFK dead? Don't they know that racists love it when Ds slam the guy who signed the Civl Rights Act? Slam LBJ for escalating in 'Nam, but plotting to kill JFK? Please.

Arlen Specter is another person one can slam on many accounts, but the single bullet theory isn't one of them because it just happens to be scientifically, forensically and historically correct.

You want a change of tone? Then ask your CT buds to answer the questions posed to them, and to answer them with facts. Then, they'd earn a bit of respect from those who value the truth as proven through evidence.

[defendandprotect]

97. Discovery Channel is now in hands of Clear Channel . . .

change came a couple of years ago -- and you could tell immediately by the programming
changes.

They, of course, brought "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" to American viewers -- it had been
filmed much earlier but barred to Americans!

Again, as I said the "Magic Bullet" is an impossibility and here's why . . .

The whole "Magic Bullet" myth is that it first went thru President Kennedy's
back and out his throat before entering Governor Connally's body, hitting him
in a number of places.

Pres. Kennedy's neck wound had NO EXIT – which was made clear at the autopsy -
and doctors at Parkland describe it as an entrance wound.

The wound in President Kennedy’s back was actually in his right shoulder which was
way below the neck wound. AND IT WAS AT A 45 DEGREE DOWNWARD ANGLE.

The shoulder wound also had NO EXIT -- also made clear at military autopsy.

Doctors at Parkland, nurses at Parkland – all personnel who had a view of the president’s
body describe a large EXIT wound in the right rear of his head – roughly the size of a fist.

Just some background on the “Magic Bullet” – Specter didn’t invent that cover-up,
but he delivered it – and protected the cover up with it.

Those who have changed America thru political violence over the past decades delivered
fascism and clearly intend to deliver a third world America as they harvest slave labor
all over the world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5558659&mesg_id=5565798

There were also more fragments - by weight -- taken from Gov. Connally's wounds than
missing from the "Magic Bullet" . . . and Connally died with fragments still in his
body!

[Lilith Velkor]

165. The evidence is clear: JFK was made of cotton wadding.

:sarcasm:

[stopbush]

185. Hey, Octa, are you one of the "truth seekers" who hasn't bothered to

read the Warren Commission Report? I'm gonna go ahead and guess "yes" - you can't be bothered.

What's it like having some jerk author's fingers up your nose as he leads you down the garden path of fantasy on the JFK killing? Don't you have the personal integrity to read the thing (WCR) and make up your own mind?

[Octafish]

227. Lie much?

Don't put words in my mouth.
I've read the report.
It's bull shit -- just like what you espouse.

[JuniperLea]

59. I believe my own 40+ years of using, and making ammo

I've been on more "slug details" than I care to think about... retrieving lead, jacketed and not, from animals, hay bales, etc... I've never seen a projectile hit bone and remain so comparatively pristine.

The Discovery Channel is not above making mistakes.

[MajorChode]

78. So you actually think your anecdotal evidence outweighs exhaustive research

done by actual experts in their respective fields.

Did you even watch the documentary? The assassination shots were reproduced as well as is currently possible. The test bullet they fired came out looking almost as pristine as the so-called "magic bullet" and it traveled through 2 ribs instead of one.

Do you really think 40 years of plinking cans qualifies you to make such determinations just because you've "never seen" it? I've done a lot of shooting and reloading myself over the past 40 years and I probably haven't bothered to retrieve a fraction of one percent of the bullets I've fired, and even with that I have seen some nearly pristine bullets. Furthermore you would have no way of knowing if a bullet did or did not hit bone unless you thoroughly dissected the animal. Even if I could believe in my wildest dreams you actually had done such analysis, how many of those shots went through one animal and into another? So lets not try and pretend you're any sort of an expert in these matters simply because you've spent 40 years shooting hay bales and furry creatures, fair enough?

[JuniperLea]

132. Nope

You make far too many assumptions.

[MajorChode]

166. You didn't answer the question

Did you even watch the documentary?

Is it safe to assume the answer is no?

If the answer is yes, feel free to elaborate where you think they made a mistake and how your personal experiences gives you more insight than their painstaking efforts to recreate the circumstances, seeing as how you are assuming they are making "mistakes".

[sce56]

91. The History channel did one too! Now they only show, sale, six of the Nine episodes on there DVD

Here is a hard to find video set from The History Channel.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=C780026FDB5FA168

The Men Who Killed Kennedy - The Final Chapter

This series of 15 nine-minute segments make up the complete final three episodes of The History Channel's long-running documentary, The Men Who Killed Kennedy, which began in 1988. This last installment of the series was televised during the third week of November, 2003; the 40th anniversary of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Within a few days, the History Channel's parent company, Arts and Entertainment (A&E) was adjured by attorneys for family and former associates of ex-President Lyndon B. Johnson, to never again air these episodes (#9-"The Guilty Men" in particular) nor offer them for retail distribution. THC backed off; therefore, the three episodes were quickly buried, never to be shown again. This Final Chapter includes episode 7-"The Smoking Gun", episode 8-"The Love Affair" and episode 9-"The Guilty Men". They are all complete and full of shocking, interesting interviews with believable witnesses. The first 6 episodes are still available to purchase through the History Channel website. Fact or Fiction? Watch the whole series and judge for yourself.

These are available in their best quality on BitTorrent a P2P network. www.bittorrent.com Nov 13, 2008 ... BitTorrent Anonymously - Encrypted protection of your identity (IP), ... CENSORED EPISODES <7 - 9>/The Men Who Killed Kennedy - <7 of 9> ...]




Very interesting stuff there like the finger print from TSBD Sixth floor that matched a Johnson crony! And the Ferry Oswald search for Cancer agents that were immediate and quick killing, Ruby died of a fast acting cancer! David Ferry also died of cancer!

[defendandprotect]

101. Thank you -- we have to preserve this stuff . . .

as soon as W got the White House stuff began to disappear and up became down . . .

Discovery was bought by Clear Channel a couple of years ago -- and quite reformed.

LBJ's "crony" was Malcolm Wallace -- his personal hired killer!

Ruby's cancer was another up is down . . . I don't recall exactly which way it went
but he either had cancer which originates in the stomach in his chest . . .
or vice versa!

Meanwhile, also very interesting was a documentary Discovery/History did on the
1992 JFK Classified Records Act, wherein it is revealed by John Tunnheim that . . .
"Oswald was employed by the CIA working on high level assignments and probably also
for the FBI" --

Tunnheim repeats this twice while the text appears below.

That program aired quite a few times over a few months and then disappeared --
replaced by one of the dumbest documentaries ever aired which attempted to debunk
the first. That one disappeared after only a few showings.

I had three quarters of the program -- but never finished taping the last part which
is where Tunnheim gives the panel's conclusion.

You can't trace it and I think Tunnheim has been in hiding ever since.

Evidently he gave the panel's report to Congress, in private --
and the panel presented their conclusions about the time the GOP was impeaching Clinton! --

Should you ever come upon that one -- let me know!

[sce56]

108. Use Bit torrent to d/l the missing chapters they are quite good and better quality

than the YouTube ones!

I remember that day they killed him I will never forget that day despite the fact I was only in 2nd grade!

[defendandprotect]

113. Thanks . . . but . . .

While I saved the links - I'll have to pass on to my son to try to download
the 7 thru 9 parts of the series. And I didn't seem able to do much at all
at the site.

I can't even remember the name of the documentary at this point -- they didn't
call it "1992 JFK Classified Records Act Panel" -- it was something like benign.
You didn't realize what it was about until 20-30 mins into the program.
It might have been one of the "unsolved" cases . . . ???
It was unusual the way they presented it -- maybe they were trying to keep it
under wraps?

Took us full circle back to Marguerite Oswald saying her son was CIA!

Of course the journalists at the time asked for copies of Oswald's W-2 immediately -
his tax records -- all denied.

I'll try to figure out the Bit torrent -- but keep your eyes open for it!

It was a sad day -- I can remember it like yesterday -
I was working in NYC/Battery Park --

[jeff30997]

125. Thanks for the links sce56.

I'll download it ASAP. :thumbsup:

[stopbush]

187. David Ferrie absolutely did NOT die of cancer.

He died of a berry aneurysm, ie a rupture of an artery.

Berry aneurysm: A berry aneurysm is a small outpouching (an aneurysm) that looks like a berry and classically occurs at the point at which a cerebral artery departs from the circular artery (the circle of Willis) at the base of the brain. Berry aneurysms are prone to rupture and bleed. Also called a brain aneurysm.

An aneurysm is, by definition, a localized widening (dilatation) of an artery, vein, or the heart. At the area of an aneurysm, the wall is weakened, bulges and is at risk to rupture.

Read his autopsy report: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ferrie_autopsy.htm

You, too, have drunk the CT kool-ade.

[defendandprotect]

95. The History/Discovery Channel changed hands in the last few years . . .right wing propaganda--!!!

It's not simply "who you believe" -- it's "who is distorting evidence?" --

First, Discovery Channel is now owned by Clear Channel --
for most of their existence they tried to help break the cover up, but that is
over now at Discovery.
Their recent "documentary" is simply more cover up --

The Single bullet is impossible . . . for any number of reasons.

First, there is no chain of evidence for the bullet -- it was found on a stretcher in
the hospital - and it's believed that Jack Ruby dropped the bullet there.

Furthermore the bullet is NOT pristine, regardless of how some characterize it. In fact, it's quite consistent with the tests conducted by the Discovery Channel, which came closer to duplicating the exact shot than any other tests done previously.

There is less material missing from the "magic bullet" than was removed from Gov. Connally's
wounds -- and keep in mind Connally died with bullet fragments still in those wounds!

So if you believe Oliver Stone's version of events (which are mostly fictional) on the subject, or the numerous tin-foil hat books on the subject, or the best empirical data on the subject.

"JFK" is based on two books -- "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs and "High Treason I" by Livingstone, both of
which are non-fiction. And on testimony from the full Warren Commission Report and from
actual witnesses.

Keep in mind that we've had these rebuttals from the right since W has been in office and if you
know anything about the JFK investigations they are inane. Peter Jennings also tried to salvage
the Warren Commission, unsuccessfully.

Again, as I said the "Magic Bullet" is an impossibility and here's why . . .

The whole "Magic Bullet" myth is that it first went thru President Kennedy's
back and out his throat before entering Governor Connally's body, hitting him
in a number of places.

Pres. Kennedy's neck wound had NO EXIT – which was made clear at the autopsy -
and doctors at Parkland describe it as an entrance wound.

The wound in President Kennedy’s back was actually in his right shoulder which was
way below the neck wound. AND IT WAS AT A 45 DEGREE DOWNWARD ANGLE.

The shoulder wound also had NO EXIT -- also made clear at military autopsy.

Doctors at Parkland, nurses at Parkland – all personnel who had a view of the president’s
body describe a large EXIT wound in the right rear of his head – roughly the size of a fist.

Just some background on the “Magic Bullet” – Specter didn’t invent that cover-up,
but he delivered it – and protected the cover up with it.

Those who have changed America thru political violence over the past decades delivered
fascism and clearly intend to deliver a third world America as they harvest slave labor
all over the world.

[Psychic Consortium]

7. Specter thinks only of Specter and his career, not the American people.

But his move will be good in many ways.

[Freddie Stubbs]

22. You could say that about a good deal of Senators

[Psychic Consortium]

38. No one seems to know what it means to be a public servant.

And actually work for the American people.
Obama does.
He will show the way.

[defendandprotect]

140. ...but Specter was involved in coverup a coup on our president/our government . . .

[Spider Jerusalem]

10. ...

do you know anything at all about the ballistics of jacketed military rounds? Do you know WHY military bullets have a metal jacket, for that matter?



See that? That would be the base of this bullet that 'never hit anything'; it's flattened, striated and there's an extrusion of lead from the jacket. Helpful hint, here: the Geneva Conventions on warfare banned the use of expanding, or 'dum-dum' (after the British Dum Dum Arsenal in India) bullets in warfare (following the British use of such rounds in the Boer War). Jacketed rounds are designed to pass through without expanding or fragmenting.

Neutron activation analysis of metal fragments from JFK and Connally have pretty conclusively shown that that (far from) 'pristine' bullet did in fact wound both men; reconstruction of the ballistic path and relative positions leads to the near-inescapable conclusion that the fatal shots came from the School Book Depository, and further that they were fired by Oswald. No other explanation fits the evidence, and in 45 years, no-one with concrete and believable evidence to the contrary has come forward.

If you're going to hate Arlen Specter, there are plenty of excellent reasons for doing so; this isn't one of them.

[Zen Democrat]

17. Specter was a Dem when he dreamed up the single bullet theory.

And it was "dreamed up" because it was the only way to avoid the obvious. There was more than one shooter. We now know from personal writings that four of the Warren Commission members didn't buy the single bullet theory. The Dallas doctors didn't. Apparently, LBJ didn't either.

There's really no disagreement that some of the shots were fired from the TSBD. That they were fired by Oswald is the issue. And in 1969, Dallas police chief Jesse Curry admitted in his book that at the end of the day they had NO evidence to tie Oswald to the rifle -- and they couldn't put him in the window of the 6th floor at 12:30, since he was seen on the 1st and 2nd floors from 12:15 to 12:30. Everybody in the Dallas police department and sheriff's department that were on the scene when the rifle was found on the 6th floor identified it as a Mauser -- even the officer that had been a gun store owner and was an expert. Oswald's paraffin test was negative.

One of these years in the future, I believe the truth will out that JFK was murdered at the extended hand of Generals LeMay and Lemnitzer and others in the pro-war establishment at the Pentagon and CIA.

And Arlen Specter was a tool of that establishment as he set out to forge a political career -- as so many thousands have been and still are.

[Spider Jerusalem]

18. Pray tell, why is that obvious?

[MajorChode]

46. Here's the problems with your accusations

Just because they didn't have a witness that was standing behind Oswald when he fired the shots, doesn't mean he didn't fire the shots. Their was a witness that put Oswald on the 6th floor at or about 12pm. There was another witness that put him on the 2nd floor at 12:15. So there really isn't any inconsistencies. Both witnesses could be correct. Even if you were to discount the 6th floor witness and solely believe the 2nd floor witness, Oswald still had plenty of time to make it up to the 6th floor.

The dermal nitrate test is extremely unreliable. In fact, the USSC has dismissed such evidence because of this. It's widely considered junk science and is rarely used today (if at all).
http://www.cpu-net.org.ph/2004/medalert_oct04.pdf

[Politicalboi]

53. Some think he was in the doorway

At the time the motorcade passed by.



I think it's him.

And we still have SS guys how should have been standing on the back of JFK's limo. The supposed other employee (Lovelady) was wearing a plaid shirt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2ji3ZoAgZo&feature=PlayList&p=D9EF38964CE7584B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3

[MajorChode]

54. It's definitely either him or Vincent van Gogh in that picture

However, it's hard to tell which. Since the man appears to have a right ear, I'm not leaning towards Vincent van Gogh.

[jberryhill]

66. And he just decided then to take the rest of the day and watch a movie

...and never managed to get home those "curtain rods" in the package he brought to work that day.

Okay.

Shame he left the building so early that day. Work hadn't been dismissed, and it was his absence that was among the factors that led to the call for his arrest.

Ruined a fine movie for a perfectly innocent man.

[MajorChode]

83. When everyone was outside watching the president, Oswald was inside

When everyone else went inside, Oswald went outside. But obviously the conspirators manufactured all that testimony too.

Both the Warren Commission and the HSCA were also convinced that Oswald tried to assassinate General Walker months prior, and the bullet used in that attempt was a perfect match for the bullets fired at Kennedy. No doubt the conspirators planned that one too though.

Then Oswald killed officer Tippet for no apparent reason, but it was probably just someone who looked a lot like Oswald, had Oswald's revolver, and dressed just like Oswald, because those conspirators are some smart bastards and knew there would be a cop happening by.

It makes you wonder how such a vast conspiracy was ever pulled off without ever so much as a hitch. It just goes to show it HAD to be the CIA.

[defendandprotect]

105. Oswald seems to be seen OUTSIDE the building watching with everyone else . . .

General Edwin Walker was a right wing extremist who led the race riot at Ole Miss!!!
In fact, the judge pretty much told him to get psychiatric help.
Walker was very much part of the lies of this conspiracy.

Neither was there any such evidence re the bullets - nor that Oswald killed Tippet.

Here's the hitch found by the Tunnheim Panel/1992 JFK Classified Records Act . . .

"OSWALD WAS EMPLOYED BY THE CIA WORKING ON HIGH LEVEL ASSIGNMENTS AND PROBABLY ALSO
FOR THE FBI."

What it does make you wonder is how much violence it takes for the right wing to keep
a conspiracy covered up this long.

[defendandprotect]

102. There was a guy eating a chicken sandwich on the 6th floor until just before the shooting -- !!!

In fact, the witness who saw Oswald in the lunchroom was a police officer --
and Oswald had just purchased a Coke from the machine -- not out of breath from
running down stairs, either.

The police did bother to take a parafin test at the time ---
the fact is NEGATIVE

[stopbush]

207. Fact: paraffin tests on Oswald's hands were POSITIVE.

Fact: paraffin test to Oswald's right cheek was NEGATIVE.

Fact: the FBI ran field tests on the paraffin test pre-assassination and proved they were totally unreliable to begin with.

Junk science.

Your other "facts" are also bullshit.

[defendandprotect]

104. Specter delivered the "Magic Bullet" theory . . . but as I understand it . ..

he wasn't the one who dreamed it up --- it was the other guy . . .
name beginning with a "B" . . . ??
For all we know it came from higher up??

A number of rifles were found on the 6th floor -- Mauser first identified by reliable
gun store owner --
In fact, there are pictures of the weapon - later changed to something else -- from
video and doesn't compute that it's the weapon later described.

Add Landsdale to that list -- LBJ, of course, one of the prime plotters and they couldn't
have done it without having LBJ in the White House.

If you've seen Madelaine Brown's videos, she describes the "meeting" of many of the plotters
the night before at Clint Murchinson's house -- there was a party and she was there --
but many of the men later came in and went into a meeting. LBJ arrived, J. Edgar Hoover,
many others. I have the list somewhere and she recites it.
By the way, Helen Thomas was also at the party that night and she filed an affadavit the
next day with the names of all those present that night -- evidently the full list of
those attending the meeting.

Specter is vile ---

Thanks for the post -- good job!

By the way, you might be interested in this which I posted in 9/11/Dungeon --
very long, has a lot of info ... including the fact that evidently we paid for the
coup on Gorbachev which I didn't know!

If you're interested, it's here --


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/defendandprotect

[tclambert]

122. How did the paraffin test miss gun shot residue on Oswald?

Didn't he shoot officer J. D. Tippit? That's what he was arrested for. Is that also part of the cover-up?

[jberryhill]

150. You might want to check up on the state of knowledge - even then - about paraffin tests

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid2.htm

[MajorChode]

170. Because paraffin tests are junk science

They produce false positives and false negatives to a high degree. Even in the 60's this was well known.

[stopbush]

182. The tests performed on Oswald FOUND GUNSHOT RESIDUE

on both hands. None was found on his right cheek which was tested because he shot a rifle.

But as others have pointed out, paraffin tests are junk science and were shown by the FBI to be useless in field tests they had performed even BEFORE the JFK assassination. All of this was reported in the Warren Commission Report which you obviously have never bothered to read.

[tclambert]

202. No, I never bothered to read the Warren Commission Report.

But why would I when so many have told me it is just a political cover-up, full of lies, half-truths, misinformation, and missing information?

[stopbush]

208. So, you let others tell you things and go your along your merry, uninformed way.

I could live with that for you, but how do you live with it? Your ignorance on the subject has led you to post CT idiocies in a public forum. You embarrass yourself. I'd think any self-respecting person would want to read the thing and make up their own mind. Obviously, you lack that kind of personal integrity.

Here's an idea: don't bother reading the WCR. Instead, read Bugliosi's Reclaiming History. That particular book goes through the WCR evidence AND it demolishes every CT theory out there at the same time. It's 1600 pages long, so you may be at it for sometime. OR - you could continue reading two-sentence posts from the DU CT crowd that are void of any evidence and let yourself think, "duh, now I KNOW it was a conspiracy."

BTW - who are the "so many" who have disparaged the WCR? I'm going to go ahead and guess that 99.99% of them haven't bothered reading the thing, either. I haven't seen Octafish or any of the other CTers averring that they've read the WCR, even though I've asked every one of them directly if they have. Are you OK with that?

Further BTW - there never will be any evidence to support a multiple gunman scenario because THERE NEVER WAS ANY evidence to support it because IT NEVER HAPPENED THAT WAY.

The EVIDENCE has supported the lone gunman/single bullet scenario since almost hour ONE of the investigation.

The EVIDENCE has supported the single bullet theory since the evidence was FIRST COMPILED. But more significantly, advances in forensics and science have not only confirmed that the single-bullet/shooter theory was correct all along, they have added nuance and an even firmer foundation to the conclusions one must draw from the evidence.

If the single bullet/shooter theory was wrong, don't you think that the advances in science would have started to dismantled the WCR findings 40+ years after the killing, rather than confirming the results with every new advance? Think about it.

And what arrows do the CTers have in their arsenal? Why, the same old disproved and discredited lunacies that a bunch of self-serving, make-a-buck authors pulled out of their asses decades ago, still evidence free and tinfoil rich. Think about that one even more.

[MinM]

212. Pat Speer has the most comprehensive breakdown of The Paraffin Tests

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter4c%3Acastsofcontention

[stopbush]

157. You're another person who has bought the misinformation.

Here's one that sounds awfully compelling:

"Oswald's paraffin test was negative."

What is a paraffin test? In this test warm paraffin, which is applied to the skin to open up its pores, collects contaminants. If the suspect had fired a gun, one potential contaminant would be the nitrates from gun powder residue. Once the paraffin hardens, either diphenylamine or diphenylbenzidine is introduced to the paraffin cast, which will turn it blue in the presence of nitrates. Thus, the presence of blue dots on the paraffin casts is evidence that the suspect had fired a gun.

In Oswald's case, a paraffin test was applied to Oswald's hands and right cheek; his hands reacted positively, whereas his cheek did not. Since shooting a rifle should have exposed his right cheek to gunpowder, the negative reaction is often cited as evidence that he did not fire a rifle.

To state that "Oswald's paraffin test was negative" is an outright lie. The best you could say is, "Oswald's paraffin test was positive for his hands but negative for his cheek."

HOWEVER:

Before the assassination, the FBI had conducted experiments showing the unreliability of paraffin tests. FBI expert Cortlandt Cunningham testified to this in front of the Warren Commission (3H487):

"And 17 men were involved in this test. Each man fired five shots from a .38 caliber revolver. Both the firing hand and the hand that was not involved in the firing were treated with paraffin casts, and then those casts treated with diphenylamine. A total of eight men showed negative or essentially negative results on both hands. A total of three men showed positive results on the idle hand, but negative on the firing hand. Two men showed positive results on their firing hand and negative results on their idle hands. And four men showed positive on both hands, after having fired only with their right hands."

It is evident that false positives and false negatives occur with the revolvers. After the assassination the Warren Commission directed the FBI to run the same experiment using the C2766 rifle and ammunition which was identical to what was found in the Texas School Book Depository. Cunningham related the results of that experiment (3H494):

CUNNINGHAM: We fired the rifle. Mr. Killion fired it three times rapidly, using similar ammunition to that used in the assassination. We reran the tests both on the cheek and both hands. This time we got a negative reaction on all casts.

EISENBERG: So to recapitulate, after firing the rifle rapid-fire no residues of any nitrate were picked off Mr. Killion's cheek?

CUNNINGHAM: That is correct, and there were none on the hands. We cleaned off the rifle again with dilute HCl. I loaded it for him. He held it in one of the cleaned areas and I pushed the clip in so he would not have to get his hands near the chamber—in other words, so he wouldn’t pick up residues, from it, or from the action, or from the receiver. When we ran the casts, we got no reaction on either hand or on his cheek. On the controls, when he hadn't fired a gun all day, we got numerous reactions.

Cunningham had explained earlier why a false negative could arise with the rifle (3H492):

EISENBERG: A paraffin test was also run of Oswald's cheek and it produced a negative result.

CUNNINGHAM: Yes.

EISENBERG: Do your tests, or do the tests which you ran, or your experience with revolvers and rifles, cast any light on the significance of a negative result being obtained on the right cheek?

CUNNINGHAM: No, sir; I personally wouldn’t expect to find any residues on a person's right cheek after firing a rifle due to the fact that by the very principles and the manufacture and the action, the cartridge itself is sealed into the chamber by the bolt being closed behind it, and upon firing the case, the cartridge case expands into the chamber filling it up and sealing it off from the gases, so none will come back in your face, and so by its very nature, I would not expect to find residue on the right cheek of a shooter."

To summarize, both false positives, from nitrates present in ordinary substances other than gunpowder, and false negatives, due to the sealed-chamber design of the C2766, arose in paraffin tests.

I don't have time right now to slap down your other "facts," but they're just as easily refuted by the real evidence that was presented in the case.

[bahrbearian]

11. But we need more bitter old men to lead us.

[Orsino]

23. That's an unfair broad-brushing.

We also need them to be wealthy and white.

[hlthe2b]

15. I don't trust Spector either, but ideological purity is what is killing

the REPUGs.... When you have an opportunist in your party, one must likewise be an opportunist and use them to the greater benefit.

Besides, the hand-wringing on the "right" going on now is providing enough entertainment value that I think we can tolerate Arlen.... There are others in the party currently (or who caucus with us) who piss me off more than Arlen. He'll face his karma for Anita Hill and his Magic Bullet "contributions"..... In the meantime, I do think Dems benefit. We stopped hand-wringing over Liarman, so I suspect we will with Arlen as well.

[Orsino]

24. Ideological IMpurity is what's killing the Republican Party.

We're just seeing their brand of total corruption falling out of style lately, as the gap between what they say and what they do becomes too wide even for American TV viewers to reconcile.

[sagetea]

19. Me too.

This is not feeling right to me...
I am happy that we will be filibuster proof, but I don't want our party to be infiltrated.

It just doesn't feel right, I worry about being expanded from within and making the democratic party break up into more and more pieces. If our progressive is a progressive republicon, I don't think I want it.

I don't know, does that even make sense?

[stopbush]

195. If that's Specter's master plan, he better get about it,

considering his age and health issue.

[dysfunctional press]

20. oh, well- go form your own party, then.

don't know what else to tell you...:shrug:

[formercia]

26. Some technical details on the 'Magic Bullet.'

I majored in Chemistry and Forensic Science and Ballistics is an avocation. That bullet was fired from a weapon at a very reduced loading, probably just enough to get it out of the barrel, much like one would do in a lab to make a comparison bullet that would be used to compare the tool marks on the lands and grooves of a suspect projectile. Anything more than a few hundred feet per second would have disrupted the nose of that projectile. I suspect it was fired into a tank of water, such as would have been done in a ballistics lab.

[stopbush]

183. For fun, let's stipulate you're correct.

Then you should have no problem answering the challenge I issued in #174.

[Maru Kitteh]

29. You have your own party? How cool is that?

[SIMPLYB1980]

30. Oh well. The deal is done so unless he gets a primary challenger,

which I doubt he will, I welcome his vote to end filibusters even if he doesn't vote for any of our bills in the end.

[merh]

31. Look at it this way - he OWES the citizens of the US, it's time he

begins to try to make up for his mistakes and fuckups.

:hi:

[mopinko]

33. look at it this way- when the torturers are brought up on charges, he is one

guy who will not buy the "america never does any wrong" bullshit.

no, i am not happy either, except for the further destruction of the gop. we should sort of look at him as a p.o.w.

[glitch]

34. Wow, I had no idea there were so many Lone Gunman theorists left in the US

and posting on DU yet! Kudos to the Discovery Channel.

Nevermind about Arlen, perhaps he is seeking last minute redemption. Cheer up, st least his defection has made quite a few repukes very unhappy, that's worth a little.

But I wouldn't invite him to any secret Dem political strategy meetings or put him on any Truth Commissions. :evilgrin:

[Echo In Light]

40. Haha...the mind boggles

[truedelphi]

45. The LoneGun Man theorists are only something like

Seventeen per cent of the entire US population.

So it is weird to find so many here.

[glitch]

62. I knew it was low but I didn't realize it was that low.

But yes it is weird.

[stopbush]

86. Not every assassination is pulled off by a lone gunman,

but some are. The JFK murder was pulled off by a lone gunman.

Is it really "weird" to find so many DUers who believe the evidence in the JFK killing? We're a pretty rational bunch, we Ds.

I'm actually more shocked to see so many CTers around here. It's kinda embarrassing, to tell the truth.

[defendandprotect]

106. Every seven years a new crop . . . America still doesn't read --- !!!

That's why it's important to keep the information flowing -- !!!

17% eh . . . wow!

[truedelphi]

147. I think that Oliver Stone and his movie "JFK" is owed a lot of the credit

Critics came out of the woodwork to denounce that movie. I was living in Marin at the time, very affluent, well educated audience there. Second or third most affluent county in the country.

It's over three hours long - but you could have heard the proverbial pin drop at any point in the film. No one moved, sneezed, snickered, etc. When it was over, people were glued to their seats, numb with the catharsis. The they slowly staggerred out of their seats and into the aisles, still quiet and still numb.

If it wasn't for Stone, all we would have in the way of film would be the crappy stuff that the History Channel serves up. (Though there have been maybe two or three films on that Channel that were more balanced, and one absolutely amazing film about how the gunman fired from the sewer ducts at curbside level. And they showed that all you had to do was walk from the railroad tracks to this tunnel and then underground to those very ducts. This is the only explanation for how the trajectory of the bullets can really be explained, IMHO.)

And by the way, to any one reading this - yes, I know some of Stone's analysis is probably flawed. And some of it had to be reduced down (poetic license) so it was not a twenty hour flick.

But Stone gave us permission to examine and to understand and to throw the "Official Warren Commission Story" out the window.

[stopbush]

156. Absolute baloney. Stone's film is absolute fiction.

The only thing it did was to perpetuate idiotic CTs and give people a self-serving license to treat fiction as if it were fact.

Now, don't get me wrong, it's great as a movie. Very compelling as a movie. But it's 99% fiction. The only things factual in it are most of the names and the fact that JFK was killed. It's a great movie that is an absolutely shameful assault on history. There's more truth to be found in the old Errol Flynn classic, "They Died With Their Boots On."

BTW - as far as Stone "gave us permission to examine and to understand and to throw the "Official Warren Commission Story" out the window" - perhaps you don't realize that CTs and mistrust of the WCR began IMMEDIATELY after the assassination and issue of the report. This country didn't need Oliver Stone to take it on a flight of fancy regarding the killing of JFK. No sir. Check the historic record. The WCR has never been believed by the majority of Americans.

There's no badge of honor handed out for believing the JFK CTs IN SPITE OF all the evidence that supports the WCR. In fact, it's the laziest, easiest and least-informed position one could take on the assassination, with emphasis on "least-informed."

[truedelphi]

171. It would be interesting to see someone who is serious about

The real events of the JFK assassination write out a description of how the Oliver Stone movie differs from the view that they hold.

I guess if that happened here on DU it would be put in the dungeon over where 9/11 gets discussed.

But I would be appreciative.

The film critics I read were all single bullet, boy that Warren Commission really nailed what happened types.

I felt some of the movie Stone did was fiction - the Donald Sutherland character says he had a meeting in Antarctica - I don't really envision Antarctica as a place where people met in those days. That seemed ail too James Bond for me.

But Garrison existed, so did Ferry and Shaw. I never followed that much of the story - I do remember that usually on around page 29 of the Chicago Sun Times there would be periodic updates on what Garrison was doing in New Orleans throughout the 1960's.

I think the main point I am trying to make is that the mainstream person in the public, the ones who never stopped to really think about the Assassination until that movie came along, and maybe on some level the events of Nov 22nd, 1963 didn't feel "right" tot hem, but they just didn't analyze it until the JFK movie came along. The movie helped them with the process.

I don't mean to offend someone like yourself who has obviously devoted a good deal of time to the effort of assembling the truths of that day.

[stopbush]

173. There are a number of point-by-point debunkings of "JFK"

available on the website if you care to search for them. You might be surprised to learn how little factual information Stone's film contains (see here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jfkmovie.htm )

The most devastatingly wrong-headed scene may be when Stone depicts the totally bogus seating arrangement of JFK and Connally, ie: Connally seated directed in front of JFK and at the same level as JFK. Costner uses a pointer in this scene to show how the bullet had to change trajectory in mid air - twice! - for the single bullet to work. But the seating arrangement is wrong. Put the people in the right position - Connally seated 7 inches lower than JFK and 3-4 inches inboard from the side of the limo - and the "magic" of the single bullet goes away - poof! JFK & Connally were perfectly aligned to be hit by a single bullet. In fact, the laws of physics say it couldn't have been otherwise. It's the CTers who are engaging in "magic" with their fantastic seating arrangement in the limo.

And I disagree - most people who have "never really stopped to think about the assassination" already believe one of the many conspiracy theories. Stone's film didn't get people to stop and think. It actually influenced them to not think and to accept Stone's fiction as truth, never bothering to read up on the facts and the evidence. And, it made many people automatically question the motives and the facts of anybody trying to set the record straight.

Most egregiously, Stone's fiction paints LBJ as a co-conspirator who was just dying to escalate the Vietnam war. No mention that JFK increased the number of advisors in 'Nam from a few thousand to over 16,000 at the time of his death. No mention that LBJ inherited this war. And no mention at all that the president who was responsible for passing the Civil Rights Act - a principled stand that he was willing to take, even though he knew if would hurt the Ds in the South for decades - did a whole lot of good for the country while he was in office.

Vincent Bugliosi gave a lot of talks when his book, Reclaiming History was released. He usually started his talk with this little exercise:

Q: how many of you believe JFK was killed in a conspiracy? Almost all hands go up.

Q: how many of you believe that the Warren Commission got it wrong? All hands go up.

Q: how many of you have actually read the Warren Commission Report? No hands go up.

[MinM]

203. "JFK" is both historically accurate and significant, since it led to the ARRB

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/MinM/67

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/MinM/109

[stopbush]

210. Funny how that 17% mirrors the number of people who don't believe in god in this country.

Could it possibly be true that the sector of American society that demands evidence to support fantastic claims like the existence of god and a conspiracy to kill JFK is that woefully low?

Unfortunately, that may be the case.

BTW - you don't think that maybe there's a connection with people believing in god and believing in the JFK CTs, do you? Perhaps a populace that believes in such ridiculous and unprovable concepts as god is predisposed to believe in other wacky ideas, like the JFK CTs.

Could be.

[JackRiddler]

226. Produce survey results that indicate such a connection or stop defaming atheists.

[timtom]

218. And the force of their convictions!!!

It's almost like they would like to lock up "CT-ers" for daring to not buckle in the face of such insurmountable evidence.

Almost like a powerful group who would see you locked up for even doubting the...never mind.

There is such ANGER there.

I believe a particular way, but I would never take someone to task for not sharing those beliefs.

[deutsey]

35. I don't like nor do I trust Specter...his role in the Warren Commission is among my reasons

I'm reading "Family of Secrets" by Russ Baker and how the Bush family was closely entangled with powerful anti-Kennedy reactionaries in Texas prior to the assassination. Oil, intelligence, wealthy right-wingers. Specter, in my opinion, has also served these forces well.

[dflprincess]

163. I'm reading "Family of Secrets" right now as well

It's taking me a long time to get through it because there is only so much I can take at a time - besides I have to stop to add more tinfoil to my hat.

I don't like or trust Specter either and I wish these damn Republicans would stay in their own party and not move over to screw up ours.

[stopbush]

184. Have you ever read the Warren Commission Report? If not, don't you feel

you owe it to yourself to do so before you get out in public and accuse a man of serving some dark force? If you've got time to read other books, why not the WCR?

[gordianot]

36. I feel the same way, there were quite a few Democrats who allowed the flawed investigation.

Some who claimed Democratic Party affiliation may have been guilty of more. I find it very interesting that Specter who has had an equally magic career has chosen to switch parties, it makes one wonder what is really transpiring.

Specter no matter his party affiliation is an opportunist and a tool to elements who have sought to deny and twist the truth. He is truly disgusting.

[WI_DEM]

39. There are just as many books and documentaries which support the single bullet theory as those which

don't. I actually am pretty convinced by what I saw on a recent documentary.

[OKNancy]

44. I'm convinced by Vincent Bugliosi

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/14/books/14jfk.html
"And if anybody does read the whole thing, Mr. Bugliosi said, one conclusion will be inescapable. “It’s my view that it’s impossible for any reasonable, rational person to read this book without being satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt that Oswald killed Kennedy and acted alone,” he said."

[RandomKoolzip]

58. I'm not.

http://www.ctka.net/besmirch.html

Michael Green's "Besmirching History" review...

This is currently the best site on the internet concerning the JFK assassination. There's a brilliant guy named Jim DiEugenio whose astounding work debunking Bugliosi and other lone-nut partisans is far-reaching and exhaustive.

http://www.ctka.net/home.html

Check out the right-hand column under Bugliosi's picture. There's a great selection of articles there, including Mark Lane's "Vinnie, it is Round," available as a PDF. Well worth the download.

Jim DiEugenio's guest spots on the "BlackOp Radio" podcast also MUST be heard by any serious JFK researcher. He really lays out all the evidence one might need to discount Bugliosi's book.

http://www.blackopradio.com/products.html

You can subscribe to BlackOp radio for free via iTunes. I suggest you check out some of this material before you make up your mind about Bugliosi.

[stopbush]

198. I love how you characterize your heroes and villans.

Di Eugenio is a "brilliant guy" who has done "astounding work" debunking "Bugliosi and other lone-nut partisans."

Mark Lane?? You actually cited mark Lane? Read all about Mark Lane's integrity here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bogus.htm (you'll need to scroll down the page a bit). Here's just one instance of Mark Lane's mendacity as posted at the link provided:

Conspiracy books often claim that Mrs. Markham described the
Tippit killer as "short, heavy, and with bushy hair."

It's Mark Lane who is responsible for this factoid.

The following is excerpted from David Belin's NOVEMBER 22, 1963: YOU
ARE THE JURY.

What did Mark Lane tell the WC:
----------------------------------------------------------

"I spoke with the deponent, the eyewitness, Helen Louise
Markham, and Mrs. Markham told me--Miss or Mrs., I didn't
ask her if she was married--told me that she was a
hundred feet away from the police car, not the fifty feet
which appears in the affidavit. She gave me a more
detailed description of the man who she said shot Officer
Tippit. She said he was short, a little on the heavy
side, and his hair was somewhat bushy.(REMEMBER THESE WORDS
OF MARK LANE AS YOU READ ON!) I think it is fair
to state that an accurate description of Oswald would be
average height, quite slender with thin and receding
hair."

------------------

Lane then (after some wrangling) presented the WC with a tape that
supposedly supported Lane's account of her testimony.

And what did his taped conversation with Mrs. Markham actually
show?

-----------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Lane. But, well, just, could you just give me one moment and
tell me. I read that you told some of the reporters that he was
short, stocky, and had bushy hair.

Mrs. Markham. No, no. I did not say this.

Mr. Lane. You did not say that?

Mrs. Markham. No, sir.

Mr. Lane. Well, would you say that he was stocky?

Mrs. Markham. Uh, he was short.

Mr. Lane. He was short.

Mrs. Markham. Yes.

Mr. Lane. And was he a little bit on the heavy side?

Mrs. Markham. Uh, not too heavy.

Mr. Lane. Not too heavy, but slightly heavy?

Mrs. Markham. Oh, well, he was, no he wasn't, didn't look too
heavy, uh-uh.

Mr. Lane. He wasn't too heavy, and would you say that he had rather
bushy hair, kind of hair?

Mrs. Markham. Yeh, just a little bit bushy, uh huh.

Mr. Lane. It was a little bit bushy.

Mrs. Markham. Yes.

Mrs. Markham
stated that she identified Oswald in the police lineup. Lane asked
whether the police had told her who it might be. Mrs. Markham
replied, "They didn't tell me one thing." Lane then returned to
the events of the Tippit shooting and once again went back to Mrs.
Markham's description of the gunman]

Mr. Lane. Did you say that he was short and a little bit on the
heavy side and had slightly bushy hair?

Mrs. Markham. Uh, no, I did not. They didn't ask me that.

she made the affidavit.]

Mr. Lane. And when you were there, did they ever ask you anything
else about Oswald? About whether he was tall or short?

Mrs. Markham. Uh, yes, sir. They asked me that.

Mr. Lane. And you said he was short, eh?

Mrs. Markham. Yes, sir, he is short. He was short.

Mr. Lane. He was short. And they asked if he was thin or heavy, and
you said he was a little on the heavy side?

Mrs. Markham. And he was, uh, uh, well not too heavy. Uh, say
around 160, maybe 150.

Mr. Lane. Well, did you say he wasn't too heavy, but he was a
little heavy?

Mrs. Markham. Uh-huh.

Mr. Lane. You did say that?

Mrs. Markham. I did identify him in the lineup.

Mr. Lane. Yes, and did you say that the man who shot, did you tell
the officers that the man who shot Tippit had bushy hair?

Mrs. Markham. Uh, no, I did not.

Mr. Lane. But, but he did have bushy hair you said, just a little
bushy?

Mrs. Markham. Well, you wouldn't say it hadn't been combed you know
or anything.

Mr. Lane. Yes.

Mrs. Markham. Of course, he probably had been through a lot, and
was kind of tore up a little . . .

Markham saw and then he asked her about her identification of the
gunman in the police station. She said that she wanted to be sure,
so she had had the police turn the man in the lineup "and they
turned him, and it was him." For a third time Lane tried to have
Mrs. Markham state that the person that shot Tippit was short,
stocky and had bushy hair.]

Mr. Lane. Have you told any reporters about anything?

Mrs. Markham. Well, one. They worried me to death.

Mr. Lane. I'm sure they are after you because you're a very
important witness.

Mrs. Markham. Uh-huh.

Mr. Lane. Did any of the reporters, did you tell any reporter that
the person that shot Oswald, shot Tippit was short, stocky, and had
bushy hair?

Mrs. Markham I did not.

Mr. Lane. You don't remember telling it because one of the
reporters reported that in the newspaper.

Mrs. Markham. Yes, I read that.

Mr. Lane. You read that. What paper was that, do you recall?

Mrs. Markham. Uh, I believe it was in the Herald.

Mr. Lane. The Herald?

Mrs. Markham. I believe, it might have been the News.

Mr. Lane. It was one of the Dallas papers, uh?

Mrs. Markham. Yes, sir.

Mr. Lane. And, do you know what day that was?

Mrs. Markham. No, sir.

Mr. Lane. That was shortly after, though, wasn't it?

Mrs. Markham. Yes, sir. They gave my address, name and everything.

Mr. Lane. Yes, and they had you quoted as saying that he was short,
stocky, and had bushy hair.

Mrs. Markham. Well, they are just not right.

Mr. Lane. But that's what they said, though.

Mrs. Markham. I know it. They can put anything in papers.

Mark Lane IS A SOURCE YOU CITE? You've GOT to be kidding.

[MinM]

222. DiEugenio does a great job of debunking Bugliosi...

Tom Hanks, Gary Goetzman, and Bugliosi's Bungle:
A Comprehensive Review of Reclaiming History

Part 1, Questioning the Prosecutor's Case
http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_review.html

Part 2, What's Missing? Oswald's Defense
http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_2_review.html

Part 3, The Whole story about Chicago and Mexico City
http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_3_review.html

Part 4, Bugliosi on the Zapruder Film and the Autopsy
http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_4_review.html

[stopbush]

223. I'll take a look at your links AFTER you've addressed my challenge in post #174.

Deal or no deal?

[stopbush]

224. James Di Eugenio is a well-known CT nut who can't take evidence for an answer.

His supposed debunking of Bugliosi's book is nicely skewered for what it isn't here:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/f40f7c3d2563783f

[glitch]

64. He was good in "None Dare Call It Treason" but anybody who has to preface his opinion with

"It’s my view that it’s impossible for any reasonable, rational person to read this book without being satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt" knows there must be flaws in his argument. If anything this statement makes me less likely to buy his arguments.
All reasonable people agree with me, therefore anybody who disagrees must be unreasonable is the rather heavy-handed implication.
Bugliosi should be above this type of preface to his arguments, maybe not professionally but certainly intellectually. It might've worked on juries but public opinion is quite a bit more open to arguments not necessarily presented in court.

[jberryhill]

67. That's a fair criticism

...but then you do the same thing by saying anyone who says that "knows there must be flaws in his argument".

It sounds like something an attorney would say. No more. No less.

[glitch]

69. I don't know if an attorney with a strong argument would find it necessary to say.

It's kind of a tell, to me anyway.

[jberryhill]

70. I'm an attorney...

And, yes, attorneys say that kind of thing all of the time.

But evaluating the entirety of Bugliosi's argument on the basis of a flyleaf quote is quite literally an example of judging a book by its cover, and is simply a shallow objection lacking substance.

The statement is something of a challenge "come on" for the purpose of selling books.

[glitch]

71. Gosh, I hope you don't say it often.

You are assuming I didn't read the book, or any of the articles he wrote about it, or never heard him speak on his book for several hours on cspan, simply because I noted what I think of as his tell.

I hope you don't do that often either.

BTW, I know you are an attorney, you've posted it quite a few times on DU.

[jberryhill]

72. Nope

"You are assuming I didn't read the book"

Well, you haven't managed a substantive criticism of it, so that wouldn't be the worst assumption I could make.

[glitch]

73. I never attempted it, so it's hardly surprising that I never managed it.

I made my point, you are the one who tried to turn it into, what, a court case? Time to let it go.

[jberryhill]

74. Okay...

So... to recap.... if not for Arlen Specter nefariously, purposefully, and deceptively exerting some sort of voodoo power for 40 odd years, everyone would know that Oswald didn't shoot JFK; ergo, he should not be allowed to be a Democrat, because while it is acceptable for probably every other Democratic senator - including JFK's brother - to believe that Oswald killed JFK, it is not okay for a former democrat to come back to the party with that same belief.

Got it.

Fuck Arlen Specter, then.

[EFerrari]

96. Most people don't believe Oswald shot him.

And you're conflating what most people in that sonambulent body that we know as the Senate believe with Arlen Specter making himself and logic into a pretzel to shore up the lone gunman theory for the white wash that was the Warren Commission.

A finding that both the Church Committee and the House Select Committee on Assassinations threw out.

And using ridicule to make your point.

Next time I go to court, I want glitch, not you.

[jberryhill]

119. So then, you agree that the "magic bullet" trajectory is impossible...

...and you base this conclusion on what?

[EFerrari]

154. So then, you habitually put words in the mouths of others?

[jberryhill]

164. That "somnambulant" Senate includes Ted Kennedy

Ted Kennedy has been working with Arlen Specter for most of his career.

Is he stupid, complicit, or just a coward?

[stopbush]

180. Do you not know that the findings of the HSCA were thrown out in 1982?

Do you not know that the dictabelt "evidence" that confirmed a 4th shot for the HSCA has been show conclusively to have been erroneous?

You may as well cite the Bible and its version of creation to throw out the Big Bang.

[defendandprotect]

115. Check this out . . .

Here's why the Magic Bullet is impossible . . .

The whole "Magic Bullet" myth is that it first went thru President Kennedy's
back and out his throat before entering Governor Connally's body, hitting him
in a number of places.

Pres. Kennedy's neck wound had NO EXIT – which was made clear at the autopsy -
and doctors at Parkland describe it as an entrance wound.

The wound in President Kennedy’s back was actually in his right shoulder which was
way below the neck wound. AND IT WAS AT A 45 DEGREE DOWNWARD ANGLE.

The shoulder wound also had NO EXIT -- also made clear at military autopsy.

Doctors at Parkland, nurses at Parkland – all personnel who had a view of the president’s
body describe a large EXIT wound in the right rear of his head – roughly the size of a fist.

Just some background on the “Magic Bullet” – Specter didn’t invent that cover-up,
but he delivered it – and protected the cover up with it.

Those who have changed America thru political violence over the past decades delivered
fascism and clearly intend to deliver a third world America as they harvest slave labor
all over the world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

Certainly, RFK did not believe that Oswald killed JFK -- and had said that when he became
president he would order a new investigation. RFK knew immediately - or at least in 24
hours that it was a very strong and very violent conspiracy. Many in Washington, DC knew
the names that night of many involved.

Seemingly, Ted Kennedy has been threatened with harm to himself and/or children since the
coup and there is every reason to question Chappaquiddic given the John Dean comments --
on the Nixon tapes -- where he says to Nixon in the Oval Office ...
"Wouldn't Ted Kennedy be shocked to know the bear trap he's walking into this weekend."
That was the weekend of Chappaquiddic.

[paulsby]

75. i deal with defense and prosecuting attorneys all the time

trust me, statements like that are par for the course.

such people are advocates for a position. nuance is not what they are about

[glitch]

80. Well, that should make jberryhill feel better to know he's not alone.

I guess times have changed, but who knows, maybe they'll change back now that we've got some intelligence leading the country. A constitutional attorney no less. He doesn't have to resort to courtroom tactics though, lucky for him.

Apparently I was wrong to expect better from a world class prosecuting attorney like Vincent Bugliosi. I have no problem disagreeing with his conclusions on the JFK assassination, but I hate to see him resort to phrases like "any rational, reasonable person would agree". The words are so cheap and easy, the kind of thing Cheney or Rumsfeld would say, that they are so commonly used now (apparently) doesn't make them less so. And IMO they really do detract from his argument.

Hopefully a new tone will be set in the years ahead.

[stopbush]

84. Bugliosi uses the the terms reasonable and rationale because he

1. exhaustively lays out the evidence that Oswald killed JFK and acted alone, and 2. he actually takes the time to knock down pretty much all of the paranoid- and conjecture-filled CTs, which is no mean feat.

As Bugliosi says in his book, it is amazing that the JFK CTers not only expound evidence-contradicting theories and treat them like fact, they refuse to change their MO when confronted with forensic evidence. A good example is the CTers harping on the "magic" trajectory of the single bullet, a stupidity that is based on willing ignorance of the fact that JFK and Connally were actually perfectly aligned in the limo for the bullet to pass through both of them. Granted, most people who believe the magic-bullet stupidity have never looked at the actual evidence - they're almost always trumpeting some ridiculously erroneous drawing that they've seen at some website that shows Connally seated where he could not have been seated. Show them the photographic evidence of where the two men were actually positioned and they say the photographs were altered. Show them the Zapruder film and they say it's a doctored copy. Yet, they themselves point to the same photographs and the same film in their supposedly "doctored" state to make their claims.

The same goes for the evidentiary photos of CE 399, ie: the single bullet. The CTers always, ALWAYS show a picture of the bullet from the side. They NEVER show the picture of the base of the bullet which clearly shows a SEVERELY misshaped bullet. Predictably, one of the DU CTers followed the tinfoil script and did exactly this at the beginning of this thread.

It really gets old after a while, and it actually reflects the disdain that Americans and - sadly - a large number of DUers hold for science and the rules of evidence. But that's part and parcel to the fantasy world we live in. CTers are cut from the same cloth as the Biblical literalists and the people who believe in werewolves. Why believe the facts - like a reasonable person - when fantasy can be whatever you wish to make it for yourself?

[defendandprotect]

114. Try this . . .

The Magic Bullet is impossible -- here's why . . .

The whole "Magic Bullet" myth is that it first went thru President Kennedy's
back and out his throat before entering Governor Connally's body, hitting him
in a number of places.

Pres. Kennedy's neck wound had NO EXIT – which was made clear at the autopsy -
and doctors at Parkland describe it as an entrance wound.

The wound in President Kennedy’s back was actually in his right shoulder which was
way below the neck wound. AND IT WAS AT A 45 DEGREE DOWNWARD ANGLE.

The shoulder wound also had NO EXIT -- also made clear at military autopsy.

Doctors at Parkland, nurses at Parkland – all personnel who had a view of the president’s
body describe a large EXIT wound in the right rear of his head – roughly the size of a fist.

Just some background on the “Magic Bullet” – Specter didn’t invent that cover-up,
but he delivered it – and protected the cover up with it.

Those who have changed America thru political violence over the past decades delivered
fascism and clearly intend to deliver a third world America as they harvest slave labor
all over the world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

[Codeine]

117. Gerald Posner's "Case Closed" is also valuable. nt

[ProfessorGAC]

118. No It Isn't

Posner is tool and was specifically recruited to write that piece of tripe. His conclusions are not even logically connected to the facts he presents in chapter after chapter after chapter. That's because he didn't do research and then draw conclusions, he had his mind made up and then cherry-picked facts, in and out of context, to support a pre-existing conclusion.

That, by definition, makes his book USELESS not useful.
GAC

[peace frog]

120. Oh, it's quite valuable

left next to the toilet, the pages serving so handily as spare TP. The book itself is very nearly but not quite as entertaining as Jokes for the John.
Two, two, two books in one!

[defendandprotect]

107. Again, the History/Discovery Channel has now changed hands . . .

it's now owned by Clear Channel . .

Discovery worked for decades to break the conspiracy and cover-up --
they brought "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" to American viewers.
If you haven't seen that, go to YouTube for it--

Especially the final segments ---

Check what you think you learned against info here --

Again, as I said the "Magic Bullet" is an impossibility and here's why . . .

The whole "Magic Bullet" myth is that it first went thru President Kennedy's
back and out his throat before entering Governor Connally's body, hitting him
in a number of places.

Pres. Kennedy's neck wound had NO EXIT – which was made clear at the autopsy -
and doctors at Parkland describe it as an entrance wound.

The wound in President Kennedy’s back was actually in his right shoulder which was
way below the neck wound. AND IT WAS AT A 45 DEGREE DOWNWARD ANGLE.

The shoulder wound also had NO EXIT -- also made clear at military autopsy.

Doctors at Parkland, nurses at Parkland – all personnel who had a view of the president’s
body describe a large EXIT wound in the right rear of his head – roughly the size of a fist.

Just some background on the “Magic Bullet” – Specter didn’t invent that cover-up,
but he delivered it – and protected the cover up with it.

Those who have changed America thru political violence over the past decades delivered
fascism and clearly intend to deliver a third world America as they harvest slave labor
all over the world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

[stopbush]

225. If you don't believe that a single bullet hit both JFK and Connally,

then you must believe the following:

1.) Three different gunmen sprayed Kennedy and Connally with three
bullets in a way to make it seem like the three bullet holes in the two
victims could be (falsely) "connected" in such a perfect fashion so
that these wounds could be "explained away" as being caused by one
bullet. (The word "remarkable", alone, can't do justice to this type of
shooting feat. Terms like "phenomenal", "extraordinary", and
"miraculous" should be added here, too. Not to mention "laughable".)

2.) Two bullets go into JFK and never come out again (despite no hard
substances being hit inside Kennedy's neck or back at all). (All the
X-rays are fakes too...right?)

3.) A separate bullet hit John Connally in his back, even though
Kennedy is situated directly between the shooter and Connally. And,
this "separate", unimpeded bullet somehow starts to tumble while in
flight, having hit nothing during its flight to Mr. Connally's back,
causing an elongated, keyhole-shaped wound on the Governor's back.

4.) Bullet CE399 was "planted" by some unidentified conspirator inside
Parkland Hospital prior to 2:00 PM on 11/22/63....a time which is
simply crazy for the plotters to want to plant any bullets. (Because
they could not possibly have known for certain at that time whether or
not the planted missile would turn out to be superfluous.)

5.) All three "real" bullets (which "fake" a nice "SBT" scenario later
on) magically disappear, never entering the record in the murder case,
and are never seen by anyone (other than "plotters", naturally).

6.) The three gunmen who caused the three wounds (wounds that would
later be turned into the "SBT" by the Warren Commission) all fired
their weapons in perfect synchronization to one another, making it look
beautiful on the Zapruder Film. Because these THREE separate shots ALL
LOOK LIKE JUST ONE HIT on the Z-Film.

A truly amazing job by those three assassins indeed.

see: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/d16a5df97cccb32c

[librechik]

42. feh--if they've been there more than 4 terms, they're all in on it.

we're going to have to age those oligarchs out of the system.

[earth mom]

47. Washington DC is as corrupt as hell. There is no hope or change there.

And there is little to no difference between the parties.

Most elected officials aren't working for the people.

Oh hell no.

Most of em work for Corporate America with very few exceptions like Kucinich. :puke:

[DevonRex]

48. Let's say you're right. How could you expect anybody to have the guts

to reveal the truth? You're talking pretty much all-powerful underworld family here. Who could have fought it nad lived?

[defendandprotect]

109. Agree . . . in fact, they say Ted Kennedy has lived under constant threats . . .

of harm to himself and/or family/children --

Ted did have a suspicious plane accident right after the JFK coup --

And from info in the Nixon tapes it looks like "Chappaquiddic" may have been
set up by Nixon -- this is based on comments by John Dean in the Oval Office
saying to Nixon . . . "Wouldn't Ted Kennedy be shocked to know the BEAR TRAP
he's walking into this weekend." That was the weekend of Chappaquiddic.

Lots of information now on JFK coup -- but no one powerful enough to bring
it to fruition.

[DevonRex]

130. I wonder who is going to take the reins once Poppy Bush kicks the bucket.

I'd like to think that some of this ends there. But it won't.

[defendandprotect]

138. I agree . . . look at the Ellis involvement in the 2000 steal --

that was their cousin, I think --

True, those who actually participated in the original coup on JFK will
mainly have departed, but those they trained and who will do their dirty
work linger on -

I had always been suspicious of Carter's fatally bad luck in the hostage
rescue attempts -- and recently I found out that OLLIE NORTH headed up
that mission!!! I think Secord was also in on it. But the helicopters
that went down and destroyed the rescue attempt did not have sand filters
attached to protect the engines . . . while this mission took place in the
desert!!!

[happydreams]

51. I don't post here much anymore, but I had to give this a K&R.

During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Thanks for keeping us on our toes Philosoraptor.

[Venus Dog]

57. Don't know if anyone has proposed this theory for this RAT to jump ship

Specter has always been a rat. He would run over his own kid if he thought it would protect himself. This guy probably knows every stinking secret about this country since JFK, maybe even before. Do you really think he's worried about an election when he's probably never won an election that wasn't fixed?

Specter is doing nothing but saving his own skin. He's jumping off the Titanic because he KNOWS something is coming down the pike - and he doesn't want it to touch him. He's probably ratting on a lot of people already.

Specter is scum, probably easily blackmailable. I believe this has to do with the torture - the photos. It's not a coincidence to me that his suddenly feeling the Republican party doesn't stand for his beliefs anymore, but the Democratic party does. This all happening at a time when the torture photos are going to be released. He KNOWS something is about to hit the fan.:think:

[robertpaulsen]

61. Here's what's truly magic about the bullet.

There were fragments.


The Warren Commission (formally known as "Hearings Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy") concluded that:

...All the evidence indicated that the bullet found on the Governor's stretcher could have caused all his wounds. The weight of the whole bullet prior to firing was approximately 160-161 grains and that of the recovered bullet was 158. grains.



(Oh really, all the evidence. Let's examine the expert testimony that Arlen Specter relied on to reach this conclusion.)



Mr. SPECTER. And could that missile have made the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist?

Commander HUMES. I think that that is most unlikely ... The reason I believe it most unlikely that this missile could have inflicted either of these wounds is that this missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be intact, and I do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of these locations.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, under your opinion which you have just given us, what effect, if any, would that have on whether this bullet, 399, could have been the one to lodge in Governor Connally's thigh?

Commander HUMES. I think that extremely unlikely. The reports, again Exhibit 392 from Parkland, tell of an entrance wound on the lower midthigh of the Governor, and X-rays taken there are described as showing metallic fragments in the bone, which apparently by this report were not removed and are still present in Governor Connally's thigh. I can't conceive of where they came from this missile.



(Well, that's just one guy's opinion, right?)



Mr. SPECTER. And could it have been the bullet which inflicted the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist?

Colonel FINCK. No; for the reason that there are too many fragments described in that wrist.



(OK, two guys, both military. What do they know? Do we have any firearms experts?



From Mr. Frazier, FBI firearms expert:

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Frazier, is it possible for the fragments identified in Commission Exhibit 840 to have come from the whole bullet heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 399?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say that based on weight it would be highly improbable that that much weight could have come from the base of that bullet since its present weight is--its weight when I first received it was 158.6 grains.

Mr. SPECTER. Referring now to 399.

Mr. FRAZIER. Exhibit 399, and its original normal weight would be 160 to 161 grains, and those three metal fragments had a total of 2.1 grains as I recall--2.3 grains. So it is possible but not likely since there is only a very small part of the core of the bullet 399 missing.



(Geez, 0 for 3 Mr. Specter. Not to engage in overkill, but there's one more witness whose testimony is relevant in light of some interesting testimony 14 years later.)



Dr. SHAW: All right. As far as the wounds of the chest are concerned, I feel that this bullet could have inflicted those wounds. But the examination of the wrist both by X-ray and at the time of surgery showed some fragments of metal that make it difficult to believe that the same missle could have caused these two wounds. There seems to be more that three grains of metal missing as far as the--I mean in the wrist.

Mr. SPECTOR: Does that bullet appear to you to have any of its metal flaked off?

Dr. SHAW: I have been told that the one point on the nose of this bullet that is deformed was cut off for purposes of examination. With that information, I would have to say that this bullet has lost literally none of its substance.


(Reflect on that underlined portion in light of this testimony from the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA):



Dr. BADEN: The wrist was explored and operated on, and recovered from the wrist was some cloth fabric which matched the jacket of Connally. Thank you. And the largest of those metal fragments, I think there are three fragments that are visible from this distance, overlay the distal radius near the wrist - the largest of those three fragments was removed by the surgeons in the course of their operation and preserved, kept at the Archives and made available to the committee many years later.

Mr. FITHIAN: The other fragments were not removed?

Dr. BADEN: The other fragments were not removed and are still present as demonstrated on subsequent X-rays available to the committee when the Governor's arm was healing.

http://www.jfk-info.com/fragment.htm


"All the evidence" indicates that Arlen Specter is a lying deceitful SOB. If he decides to be a stand-up guy for once in his life and obstruct any potential filibusters as a Democrat, consider that to be the real "magic".

[Gabi Hayes]

63. to me, the bullet fragments provide the strongest argument for more than two

"Oswald bullets" hitting the president/vehicle....in which case makes it impossible for whomever fired from the TBD to have done the job alone

check this link:

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Essay_-_Is_Vincent_Bugliosi_Right_that_Neutron_Activation_Analysis_Proves_Oswalds_Guilt

In his book, Reclaiming History, author Vincent Bugliosi highlights the dubious, if long-held, claim that bullet evidence in the Kennedy case scientifically establishes Oswald's guilt to a high degree of certainty. The proof, he says, consists of two related elements that show that only two bullets from Oswald's rifle struck anyone in JFK's motorcade on November 22nd.


Commission Exhibit 399, the so-called "magic bullet," allegedly found on a stretcher in Parkland Memorial Hospital on the afternoon of 22 Nov 1963. But new evidence has raised doubts that this Mannlicher Carcano bullet is the same bullet that was originally found and turned over to the U.S. Secret Service. See The Magic Bullet: Even More Magical Than We Knew?
First, both the nearly whole bullet that was recovered on a stretcher at the hospital where JFK and Governor John Connally were treated, as well as both of the other large bullet fragments recovered from JFK's limousine (consisting of the copper jacket and the lead core of a single bullet) were shown to have been fired from Oswald's Mannlicher Carcano, to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world. Second, a sophisticated analytical test, neutron activation analysis (NAA), proves that all the smaller, recovered bullet fragments were separated from the larger specimens. Thus, only two bullets struck, both from Oswald's weapon.

As inescapable as the logic behind the theory may seem, and Bugliosi does an admirable job of making it seem inescapable, two recent reports in the technical/scientific literature have shot holes through it. The second debunking was published six months after Bugliosi claims to have stopped his inquiry and so he can't be faulted for not addressing it. But Bugliosi was fully aware of the first article, which, by itself, posed fatal problems which he glossed over. The manner in which Bugliosi dealt with this important evidence tells us much about his general approach to the subject of the Kennedy assassination. And to understand that, some background is in order.


lots lots more at the site, including analysis which casts great doubt on Bugliosi's interpretation of the evidence he produces

IIRC, Bugliosi's book is nothing more than an extended prosecutor's brief, which is pretty much shown to be the case in the above link....as inignoring any evidence which doesn't support his hypothesis

but all y'all coincidence theorists go ahead and refute the above article, without cutting and pasting BS from the likes of Bugliosi and the Case Closed creep.

[defendandprotect]

110. Great post. . . and Connally died still with fragments from the bullet in his body - !!!

Here are other reasons why the "Magic Bullet" is an impossibility . . .

The whole "Magic Bullet" myth is that it first went thru President Kennedy's
back and out his throat before entering Governor Connally's body, hitting him
in a number of places.

Pres. Kennedy's neck wound had NO EXIT – which was made clear at the autopsy -
and doctors at Parkland describe it as an entrance wound.

The wound in President Kennedy’s back was actually in his right shoulder which was
way below the neck wound. AND IT WAS AT A 45 DEGREE DOWNWARD ANGLE.

The shoulder wound also had NO EXIT -- also made clear at military autopsy.

Doctors at Parkland, nurses at Parkland – all personnel who had a view of the president’s
body describe a large EXIT wound in the right rear of his head – roughly the size of a fist.

Just some background on the “Magic Bullet” – Specter didn’t invent that cover-up,
but he delivered it – and protected the cover up with it.

Those who have changed America thru political violence over the past decades delivered
fascism and clearly intend to deliver a third world America as they harvest slave labor
all over the world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

[cliffordu]

76. Funny. There was an australian outfit that replicated the magic bullet precisely

in a special on the discovery channel or some freaking place.

They were very skeptical about the Warren report and dispelled the tinfoil arguments pretty well, on that one bullet.

I refuse to believe Oswald made all the shots...There was a report about prisoners on a floor of a jail near the book depository pointing to a different window.

If you want to see WHY I think oswald didn't make lla the shots, or maybe any of them, read my journal.

[defendandprotect]

111. "Magic Bullet" is impossible . . .

Here are other reasons why . . .

The whole "Magic Bullet" myth is that it first went thru President Kennedy's
back and out his throat before entering Governor Connally's body, hitting him
in a number of places.

Pres. Kennedy's neck wound had NO EXIT – which was made clear at the autopsy -
and doctors at Parkland describe it as an entrance wound.

The wound in President Kennedy’s back was actually in his right shoulder which was
way below the neck wound. AND IT WAS AT A 45 DEGREE DOWNWARD ANGLE.

The shoulder wound also had NO EXIT -- also made clear at military autopsy.

Doctors at Parkland, nurses at Parkland – all personnel who had a view of the president’s
body describe a large EXIT wound in the right rear of his head – roughly the size of a fist.

Just some background on the “Magic Bullet” – Specter didn’t invent that cover-up,
but he delivered it – and protected the cover up with it.

Those who have changed America thru political violence over the past decades delivered
fascism and clearly intend to deliver a third world America as they harvest slave labor
all over the world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

[cliffordu]

129. Well. You are competely and absolutely and finally correct.

[defendandprotect]

137. Thanks . . . this info was immediately available but public never informed . . .!!

[cliffordu]

155. I forgot my sarcasm tag.

[defendandprotect]

167. With or without attitude . . .

the facts of the wounds stand --

[kegler14]

77. OKI, we need reams of tinfoil for this thread.

[defendandprotect]

112. 17% who believe in "lone nut" ....

are the "tinfoilers" --

Magic Bullet is impossibility and here's why . . .

The whole "Magic Bullet" myth is that it first went thru President Kennedy's
back and out his throat before entering Governor Connally's body, hitting him
in a number of places.

Pres. Kennedy's neck wound had NO EXIT – which was made clear at the autopsy -
and doctors at Parkland describe it as an entrance wound.

The wound in President Kennedy’s back was actually in his right shoulder which was
way below the neck wound. AND IT WAS AT A 45 DEGREE DOWNWARD ANGLE.

The shoulder wound also had NO EXIT -- also made clear at military autopsy.

Doctors at Parkland, nurses at Parkland – all personnel who had a view of the president’s
body describe a large EXIT wound in the right rear of his head – roughly the size of a fist.

Just some background on the “Magic Bullet” – Specter didn’t invent that cover-up,
but he delivered it – and protected the cover up with it.

Those who have changed America thru political violence over the past decades delivered
fascism and clearly intend to deliver a third world America as they harvest slave labor
all over the world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

[kegler14]

126. Still have tinfoil for sale.

[defendandprotect]

136. Really admire your debating skills . . .

and overwhelmed with your knowledge of what's going on --

:evilgrin:

[inna]

79. rec # 31

:kick:

[autorank]

81. You revealedl the true danger of Specter

He's clearly much smarter than most everybody in the Senate and that includes the party he's just joined. There's plenty of room for him to lead these guys around by the nose.

"The Magic Senator" was the magic counsel who kept a nation in the dark. Think of what that did
to the direction of freedom and security.

[Juan_de_la_Dem]

82. This bullet has a bit of a Steely Dan look to it. Speaking of: What's the Frequency Dan?

typo

[BigBearJohn]

85. Get rid of Senator Byrd too -- he was in the KKK, wasn't he?

If we got rid of every crook in the senate, we'd have two or three left. (maybe)

[certainot]

92. yeah byrd 'grew up', did he cover up any assassinations?

until specter comes clean he hasn't done shit.

[jberryhill]

124. Ted Kennedy - Stupid or Coward?

[certainot]

139. maybe kennedy got the private apology

how many kennedys have ever suggested that there were cover ups? was that for the 'good' of the country? the unstated prices of going too far in a 'democracy' like ours?

[jberryhill]

151. So you are in the complicit/corrupt category with respect to Ted....

...who went on to spend a wonderful career as a colleague of the man who covered up his brother's murder.

I had no idea that Ted Kennedy was such a POS.

[certainot]

152. so you're an absolutist, certainty freak

who can't see any other alternative? what if he was uncertain?

i suppose in that scenario you'd throw a fit and quit the senate in a huff.

[jberryhill]

153. Did you read the title of the OP on the way into this thread....

"I don't even want one of the men who covered up the murder of JFK IN my party"

Not much uncertainty there.

I think you have your definition of close-mindedness backwards.

[certainot]

168. no, i got it right

and you're making up shit in defense of specter, a company/party man who continued to be a republican while his party practically destroyed the country and now switches parties because he can't win unless he does- there's a guy with real principles- but you question kennedy's? what a joke.

[jberryhill]

172. "but you question kennedy's?"

Not much of a deep thinker there.

The point is that Ted Kennedy has been working with Arlen Specter for years and doesn't have a problem with it.

But everyone with "principles" is supposed to believe that Arlen Specter covered up the JFK assassination.

Don't worry too much about it, I'm not sure if you are capable of understanding the irony.

[certainot]

186. that's what i meant by absolutist

specter was on the commission and came up with (or passed on) the single bullet thing- now, anything's possible, but likely? then add in the specter history of passing absurdly unqualified supremes and other crap and just being a republican through the last decade and he really isn't worth much as a senator as far as i'm concerned. he may have evolved into a better senator who may have thought to better his party and finally gave up but he has been on the wrong side of way too many issues imo and it sure looks like he just wants to do a strom thurmond.

so, again, if you're kennedy, who's job as a senator in this 'democracy', by definition, is to work with the opposition to find compromise, are you going to throw down your books and go home, or shoot him, rather than forgive and deal with one of the most senior GOP sens who may have communicated a private apology for channeling the official coverup or maybe an insane belief in a 'magic bullet' theory as an alternative to believing in a terrifying alternative? there are plenty of other reasons why kennedy might deal with or even like specter that i may never understand. but i don't give a fuck about that.

[Thothmes]

228. He participated in the filibuster of the Civil Rights Bill.

[southerncrone]

87. I' m with you, Philosoraptor.

All the other "facilitators" of the JFK cover-up have gotten their political rewards, the greatest prize going to Gerald Ford.

No doubt Arlen was promised a reeeeally big prize if he could pull of the sale of "the magic bullet". Ole' Arlen pitched it like a snake-oil salesman & voila!! that pesky JFK thing is neatly packaged & put away out of sight.....no need to revisit it anymore.....Arlen explained EXACTLY what happened.

I suspect Arlen's "change of party" is the result of one of two possibilities:

1. Revenge for not getting his payback for the magic bullet sale.
The 2008 election was Arlen's last chance to run for President. Instead of the JFK death machine paying Arlen back for that excellent service he performed selling the magic bullet, they went w/McCain instead. Poor ole' Arlen wasn't even considered for VP. Now he's pissed, so he's "gonna get em back" for this snub.

2. He's gonna serve as a Repuke mole in our party....pure & simple.

Either way, I have serious doubts as to the sincerity of Specter's move. However, if he helps us get what we want......then good.

[jobycom]

88. If you believe someone other than Oswald did it, then you already believe your party covered it up.

No coverup would have worked without those in the ruling party being complicit. That includes JFK's brother, and his VP.

Here's a better photo of your bullshit "Pristine bullet." It was obviously fired.

[sce56]

89. I'm with you -.5 grains

There was more than three shots fired that day PERIOD!

the following three photos are why they came up with the magic bullet theory








Among the central findings of the Warren Commission therefore, the only one that appears to be true is the least important, namely that bystander James Tague was hit by debris from a bullet that missed its target, struck a distant curb instead and caused him minor injury. Visit the website of James Tague here

Lee Harvey Oswald fired a total of THREE bullets.

Unfortunately for the Commission, not more than three bullets could have been fired, for it was determined from the Zapruder film and the time needed to reload the Carcano bolt-action rifle, that Oswald could not have fired more than three shots in the 6 seconds from the first shot to the final headshot. For its conclusion, the Commission contended that three spent shell casings were found under the window of the sixth floor of the School Book Depository.
Again, it is surprisingly simple to demolish this conclusion, based on the Commission's own evidence, for the original FBI receipt of the shell casings showed only TWO spent casings and ONE live round. Hence, not more more than two bullets could have been fired from that window.








These documents prove again that only TWO shell casings and ONE LIVE round were obtained. The Warren Commission changed the number of spent casings to three and left out the live round. Note the 3 in the line talking about three shell casing then look at all of the other trees on the page! They are smaller than the one three! We know Jerry Ford moved the back wound up three inches so did Arlen Specter change the two to three?
It is also important to note that Specter invented the single bullet theory ONLY AFTER the Warren Commission could no longer ignore the testimony of James Tague. Before that, they had three hits (Kennedy back, Kennedy head and Connally). Now, the logical and responsible investigative approach when you have to account for an extra miss and explain all those wounds with just two bullets, is to go and look for more shots and thus more gunmen. Instead they desperately clung to their "lone nut" and concocted the pristine magic bullet, accounting for all wounds of BOTH JFK and Connally. In addition, It can now be proven they LIED and TAMPERED to pull it off.

[defendandprotect]

90. Agree . . . and it was indeed a coup on a "people's" government as well -

America has only been going backwards since then --

The whole "Magic Bullet" myth is that it first went thru President Kennedy's
back and out his throat before entering Governor Connally's body, hitting him
in a number of places.

Just some background on the “Magic Bullet” – Specter didn’t invent that cover-up,
but he delivered it – and protected the cover up with it.

Pres. Kennedy's neck wound had NO EXIT – which was made clear at the autopsy -
and doctors at Parkland describe it as an entrance wound.

The wound in President Kennedy’s back was actually in his right shoulder which was
way below the neck wound. AND IT WAS AT A 45 DEGREE DOWNWARD ANGLE.

The shoulder wound also had NO EXIT -- also made clear at military autopsy.

Doctors at Parkland, nurses at Parkland – all personnel who had a view of the president’s
body describe a large EXIT wound in the right rear of his head – roughly the size of a fist.

Those who have changed America thru political violence over the past decades delivered
fascism and clearly intend to deliver a third world America as they harvest slave labor
all over the world.

[Rex]

94. His paymasters forced him to change to find out what the Dems know about

JFK

[BlueIris]

103. No kidding. Someone had the nerve to ask me today what Arlen Specter had done to make me hate him.

I really pity that moron.

[TWiley]

116. Arlen Spincter is holding his seat .... look out below

Never approach a distorted spincter !

[slackmaster]

131. Looks to me like a 6.5 mm bullet that has been fired from a rifle and hit something

It's by no means "unused".

I reload and shoot 6.5 x 55 ammunition (the Mannlicher Carcano shoots 6.5 x 52).

[MadBadger]

135. Who are we talking about...LBJ?

Oh...Specter..oops

[WeDidIt]

145. The Single Bullet Fact is the ONLY way it could have happened.

Doesn't this belong in the conspiracy theories forum?

[mnhtnbb]

149. Hubby agrees with you.

[stopbush]

174. I dare any JFK CTer to take this simple challenge:

You say the shooting was a conspiracy. You say there were more than 3 shots fired, and that shots were fired by multiple shooters.

OK. Then riddle me this:

what weapons were fired by the shooters other than Oswald? Now, think before you answer.

Doesn't it stand to reason that ALL of the shooters involved would have had to been using the SAME MODEL RIFLE as did Oswald, ie: a Carcano? Doesn't it stand to reason that ALL shooters would have had to use the same ammo drawn from the same lot? Otherwise, their plot would have been given away as soon as law enforcement recovered their fired bullets.

Unless the other shooters used the same ammo, they ran the risk of law enforcement recovering different kinds of spent ammo. Result, conspiracy confirmed.

Worse, unless every shooter USED OSWALD'S PERSONAL MAIL-ORDER PURCHASED RIFLE, ballistics tests on recovered bullets would show that they came from DIFFERENT Carcano rifles than Oswald's. Result, conspiracy confirmed.

As far as the "fake and planted" round found at Parkland (CE399), how would the conspirators know in advance to plant a round from Oswald's weapon and not a round from a weapon from one of the other shooters? How did they know Oswald would leave his rifle in the TSBD to be discovered by police? How did they know that Oswald's shots were the shots that hit JFK and Connally? What if all of Oswald's shots had missed and JFK was hit only by shots from the supposed shooter positioned on the grassy knoll? Didn't the conspirators run the risk of blowing their lone gunman scenario by planting a bullet that would have shown a second shooter(ie: Oswald) if the shooter who had actually hit the target was the badge man?

I look forward to your considered responses...but I'm not holding my breath.

[stopbush]

199. 6.5 hours later, and no CTer has bothered to take my challenge.

Not only that - looking through the thread, I see no responses to any specific, direct questions asked of them by those who believe the WCR got it right. Oh, I see name calling and the old switcheroo strategy of answering a question with a question or an accusation, but no CTers have the guts to answer the questions.

Why am I not surprised?

[stopbush]

211. Make that 26 hours later, and still nothing but crickets from the JFK CT crowd.

Chickenshits all.

[stopbush]

215. 34 hours later and the CT crowd is channeling Sean Hannity avoiding Olbermann.

Still not a CTer in sight who will take my challenge as presented in post #174.

[MajorChode]

220. And I doubt any of them will

To believe in the JFK assignation conspiracy requires faith, and this blind faith is just as strong as any religion. It's the kind of faith that drives you to ignore all evidence that stands in opposition. It's the kind of faith that drives you to believe people that are completely untrustworthy. It's the kind of faith that requires you to throw anything that remotely resembles reason away.

[Red Dog]

175. You Ding Dong...

Man, I see this stuff, and I don't want the left turning into the circus that is the right.

Let them own conspiracies.

Some forensics dudes form Australia recreated the shot.

Science wins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd41_hKEi6o&feature=channel_page

[Red Dog]

176. Oops. Wrong link...

Here it is. Take the time to learn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mODFnl8e83M

[TheKentuckian]

179. I chalk single bullet as highly improbable

but almost nothing is impossible.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

181. That coup d'etat was 45 years ago, time to move on

If Ted Kennedy will welcome the new Dem, why shouldn't we?

Practial politics says it's about the numbers. With Arlen, and if we ever seat Franken, and with some party unity or discipline, a lot of good legislation can get through.

And, yes, somebody got away with murder.

[ailsagirl]

189. Big big time. And our country has never been the same since...

I can't move on-- not that I sit around weeping about it, but it
was a massive blow to our country and we've never really recovered
And it makes it crystal clear the power that's wielded behind the
scenes. I will always remember JFK and mourn his vile murder.

[MinM]

188. "Specter's JFK Specter" by Lisa Pease (4-29-09 Consortium News)

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/042909a.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x444610


YouTube - JFK SECRET SERVICE STAND DOWN


http://www.dmagazine.com/2008/10/24/The_Day_Kennedy_Died.aspx


http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/The_Democrats_magic_bullet.html
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/The_Arlen_Specter_decade.html
http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/