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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 02:40 PM
Original message
2 MEN DANCING! - Shocking - Just Shocking
http://www.alternet.org/media/140482/homophobia_on_prime_time%3A_judges_from_%27so_you_think_you_can_dance%27_freak_out_over_two_men_dancing_together/

Homophobia on Prime Time: Judges from 'So You Think You Can Dance' Freak Out Over Two Men Dancing Together
By Greta Christina, Greta Christina's Blog. Posted June 6, 2009.

They were so freaked out that they were unable to render a verdict on the pair's dancing, and insisted that each man repeat the audition with a woman. Tools

So what does it mean when people in the dance world -- I repeat, the dance world -- are shocked and confused at the sight of two men dancing together?

A couple of weeks ago the TV show "So You Think You Can Dance" premiered its new season. It started, as always, by showcasing highlights from the audition process.

And it showed, for the first time in the show's five-year history, an audition of two men doing ballroom dance together: Misha Belfer and Mitchel Kibel. And the judges were completely flummoxed. They were not just confused -- a word two of the three judges used to describe their reactions. They were visibly upset. They were so freaked out that they were unable to render a verdict on the pair's dancing, and insisted that each man repeat the audition with a woman, so they could accurately judge the men's dancing without the distraction of the same-sexness of it all.

Here, so you can judge for yourself, are a few samples of the judges' comments. (For those who think I might be taking these out of context -- or who just don't feel that their blood pressure is high enough -- a complete transcript of the judging scene is at the end of this piece.)

Nigel Lythgoe: "I'm certainly one of those people that really like to see guys be guys and girls be girls on stage. I don't think I liked it, to be frank."
Mary Murphy: This is the first time, honestly, for me to see it. I'm confused, because I see that sometimes you're both being the female role and sometimes the male, so, like, and then sometimes you'll do the trick and then he does it, too. So it confuses me.

(Quick note: Switching back and forth rapidly between lead and follow in a dance -- what I assume Mary meant by "the male role" and "the female role" -- is unbelievably hard to do. It's even harder to do it gracefully and seamlessly. The fact that these dancers were able to do this should not have been freaking these judges out. It should have been making them give high marks.)

MM: It was hard for me to even kind of focus on that technique, 'cause I was still just trying to figure out ... It would have been easier for me, in other words, if, if one person was playing the female role and one was playing the male role.
Sonya Tayeh: I'm saying that in the genre that I've seen, when I see this approach (gesturing), which, I usually see it from the female perspective. I relate more to it as a female. So I just get confused. You guys are both amazing, and the movement quality, but I was just confused in terms of the, the classical form.

NL: Do you know what? I'd like to see you both dancing with a girl.

MM: I would, too.

ST: Me, too.

NL: You never know. You might enjoy that! (Smirking) All right, see you later.
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Aristus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. "Stalag 17" would probably drive them into a frenzy.
It depicts American soldiers in a POW camp dancing together on Christmas. (There were no women to dance with, naturally...)
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Heck yes! Many of the old war movies show that
And how about Laurel and Hardy sleeping in the same bed? Oh, the horror!
:rofl:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. Remember the fundie flap about Bert and Ernie living together?


:shrug:
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. Cover the children's eyes!!!
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Plus, of course, one must consider Klinger.
What to make of Klinger?
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. On one episode...
Dr. Freidman offered to send him home by branding him a homosexual

Klinger wouldn't have anything to do with it and was really upset at the charge
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Well, natch. Cross-dressers are not necessarily gay.
Everyone knows that. Consider Giuliani, after all...well...maybe that's not the best example, but you probably take my point.
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. my point is...
he was pissed at the suggestion he was gay

it's ok for people to think your crazy

But gay? - hell no

his cross-dressing was not a fetish but a means to get out of the army - and when he was finally given his ticket home he refused it
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Yes, thanks, I know that. I was making a feeble attempt at
humor.
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. it's all good
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. "So, which one of you is the woman?"
Fucking neanderthals.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Except ballroom dancing= someone leads. These fools didn't know who was leading. Their outfits were
Edited on Sat Jun-06-09 02:58 PM by KittyWampus
horrendous and they tripped and fell.

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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. The article didn't say they didn't know who was leading.
It says they "fluidly slipped back and forth between leads." Not true?
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. They didn't "fluidly slip back and forth". They looked horrible and FELL. And their outfits were
Edited on Sat Jun-06-09 03:14 PM by KittyWampus
absurd.

If you want to critique dancing, first realize the art form involves certain rules and conventions. If you are going to break conventions and do something that radical, you'd better be very good and have all the bugs worked out.

There IS Mens Couples in Ballroom Dancing. I assure you, when you watch two men who know what they are doing, it looks wonderful. And after watching this show and listening to the judges since the beginning, it is highly doubtful they'd have lambasted those two men if they'd actually done a good job.

And it's a shame that none of the judges' comments or critiques from any other episode get mentioned. They've been totally supportive of gay dancers who dealt with shit from their parents and peers at home.

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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. are you talking about this?
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. Most of the outfits I see on dancesport are horrible.
Seriously- lime green taffeta and tiger striped spandex, guys that look like an Italian coke whore from National Geographic Presents The Worst Clichés of Disco.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
45. LOL! Too true. If you watched the last episode, one of the judges teased a finalist for Top 20
Edited on Sat Jun-06-09 07:46 PM by KittyWampus
because of her unitards. :D

But you know, there was a time I looked good in a unitard :blush:

Maybe I"m just jealous.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. They played that clip on GayUSA and the panel looked like idiots.
It was surreal.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Really? You don't think the two guys who didn't know who was leading looked good?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. What they were doing was brilliant because they did keep handing off
definite dancing roles to each other. The panel was just too damn stupid to get it. And especially the guy -- I never watch that show and don't know who he is. He was a condescending @sshole who didn't know what he was talking about. The anchors at GayUSA were nearly speechless after they played the clip. lol

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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. no, it wasn't "brilliant" because they looked like shit & FELL. If you're going to break convention
which is what the artform of ballroom dancing is all about, you'd better be convincing.

And since you never watch the program, Nigel in the past made a comment when some obnoxious queen went to audition and made a mockery of dance. He said something like "you're the reason so many fathers don't want their sons to dance".

And if you ever watched the show, you'd KNOW they've featured guys trying out who were obviously gay and who were NOT supported by their football coaching Dad.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Yes, they did take a tumble but that's beside the point. Maybe you didn't get it either.
And Nigel is a pompous freak. I could never, ever watch that show, having worked in the theater with professionals who actually know wtf they're talking about. He's a joke, taLking about women and not about the concept. lol
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. His comment about women was maybe if they had someone to lead with they'd actually perform better.
Again, this has a lot of similarities to the outrage over Garrison Keillor's comments about gay America.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
8. Here's something I found on YouTube
from another dance competition held this year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMZQ1lIVgTk

:headbang:
rocktivity
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
9. Don't they know how the Tango started?
ignorant fucks.
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femmocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. During the competion phase, they pair together a boy and a girl.
Maybe that is all they were referring to. Maybe you are reading something into it that wasn't intended? :shrug:
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
14. In case they haven't had a full blown MI yet.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
43. Umm. Hardly the same IMHO!
Different art forms. Ballroom versus Tap.
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. True, but Kelly said he wouldn't mind being Ginger to dance with Fred again. Oooops. n/t
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
15. What is shocking are so many clueless people offering opinions in total ignorance.
Edited on Sat Jun-06-09 03:02 PM by KittyWampus
The reason Nigel asked if they might want to dance with a girl is because neither seemed to understand the concept of one dancer leading AS MARY EXPLAINED.

Maybe if they had a woman, they'd be able to demonstrate they understood the basics of ballroom.

I watched that episode and figured it was just a matter of time until this bullshit started spreading.
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Stevenmarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
16. And as we all know the dance world is a bastion of butchdom.
I mean really Mary you can't swing a purse in the dance world and not hit a gay man, what planet do these judges live on.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. Maybe, just MAYBE, you might realize from your own comments THEY HAVE NO PROBLEM
with gay men dancing together but the crappy example those two gave.
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. please find the clip for me
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. considering several judges are gay, I really don't think that's what their problem was.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
18. Hey,I saw a dozen men dancing together, holding hands, at a Greek
festival last weekend, Zorba the Greek style. It's been going on for thousands of years. :-)
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
26. You mean these 2 guys?
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. The big distraction for me with this
is those awful, hard, gymnastics hands.

Makes me want a baton to whack them with until they loosen it up and hold them right!
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
41. For some REALLY GOOD same sex dancing try this from Fire Island Dance Festival-
Edited on Sat Jun-06-09 06:45 PM by KittyWampus
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
30. I've been at a number of same-sex dance contests back in the 1970's
Two guys can do some things that a man-woman couple can't do, and vice versa. There is something of a visual advantage to dancing with a woman because of the role of the skirt, but it comes at the price of the male lead being stuck in the role of lead, which often means he's not doing much more than standing there. Certain aerials look good with two men, while others look strange. Two men can do a stronger resistance type of dancing which allows for greater speed in some maneuvers, and of course switching leads means each one gets to show off on the spins.

Didn't Ty and Randi get in trouble for gender bending ice dancing a little? I think they got marked down because she threw him.

I find the "dancesport" version of touch dancing to be a bit cheesy, but that is because I don't care for certain steps (that I don't know the name of but which amount to prancing while clenching your butt) and because I don't like choreographed routines and preselected music in dance competitions. Back in the 1970's we had to dance to whatever the DJ decided to play on the night in question, so you didn't get to choose your song unless you were tight with the DJ.

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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
33. How odd
to be so flummoxed.

And I note that they want each to dance with a "girl". I don't suppose they actually meant a young teenager, did they?
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. The reason they wanted them to dance with a girl
was because they wanted them to show that they could LEAD. The traditional male role in ballroom is to lead, and the pairing in SYTYCD is boy/girl. They are also looking for all the males to dance like men, ie....with strength. None of them have a problem with gayness, as some of the judges are gay themselves. But, up on stage is a totally different thing. Not everyone will have front row seats in the theater, some will be seated in the balcony. Those in the balcony should be able to pick out the males by the strength of their dancing, while the females need to have a softness about them. That is how they can follow the story of the dance.

A number of the winners of the show have been gay, so you can't really call them out for bigotry. They are preparing these youngsters for the theater, and what will be expected of them. They don't give a damn about who they have sex with.

zalinda
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. I didn't think about it like that but I still don't get it.
Can't you pretty much tell who is leading in ballroom dancing? What bearing on that is the sex of the partner?
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Yes, here is a good example of some BEAUTIFUL same sex ballroom dancing:
GORGEOUS!

Men's Championship Waltz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lukRS1Y20ss


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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-07-09 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #38
46. These guys were going to HAVE to dance with girls
If they could ONLY dance with each other, then what good would it be. Trading a lead back and forth would be fine for two male dancers, but these guys would have to dance with girls, for the majority run of the show. What if they couldn't lead all the time, and got used to switching leads? These are question ANY dance company would want to know. This is not a homophobic question.

And while dancers may know who is leading and who isn't, the general public wouldn't know.

Ballroom dancing IS tradition. There are steps that must be learned and must be done in competition. They are always looking at the technique of the dancer. Bringing something new to street dance is one thing, but you don't mess with ballroom.

zalinda
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. I realize that
I'm commenting on the language.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-06-09 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
37. Please tell me you're joking about this.
These people are apparently in the entertainment business and have never come into contact with Teh Gay before?

What does anyone's gender, or their partner's have to do with their dancing ability?
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