PBS: Pope John Paul II: A Saint for Our Times . .. !!! Whaatttt????

[defendandprotect]

This is playing on PBS as I'm typing this!!!


"The life and papacy of the late pontiff from hisbaptism to his death in 2005"



:eyes:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

1. If you loved Adolf,

you'll be absolutely NUTS about that dead guy, too, I suppose...................

[UTUSN]

2. John XXIII really RULED!1 n/t

[defendandprotect]

5. Loved him . . . Vatican II, historical change -- which r-w is still trying to destroy . . .!!

And at the time it was a trio trying to bring peace to the world . . .

Pope John XXIII, JFK and Kruschev --

Our warmongers didn't like it -- !!!


I'm actually watching "The US vs John Lennon"

"2006 Lennon is harassed by the US government because he opposes the Vietnam War"

Nixon's "criminal presidency" ... !!!

We didn't get him either thanks to his self-appointed successor Gerald Ford . . .

now known to have been one of the elected officials whose campaign funds were

contributed by CIA. Sen. Strom Thurmond being another mentioned.

If you've never seen it, very interesting -- sadly interesting!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

6. Boy, did he ever!!!

We had him and JFK at the same time. The world will never look that hopeful again.

And the wonderful changes he instituted, that damn Vatican made sure they were canceled out as quickly as possible

He was a good and great man..............

[defendandprotect]

8. Yes . . . in fact, I think John Paul II was the first CIA Pope . .. !!!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

9. Hmmm?

What?

[defendandprotect]

10. Well . . .

besides Pope John Paul II's actions -- Poland, in partiularly ...

I remember reading at some point that Allen Dulles' nephew was a rapidly
rising Catholic priest in America. And, poof!, before I knew it he was off
to the Vatican.

Allen Dulles took in tens of thousands of Nazis, especially those working in
intelligence and including elites of intelligence. This was Project Paperclip --
immediately after the end of WWII. The CIA -- see GLADIO -- worked all over the
world to keep right-wing governments in place and liberals/progressives out of
office -- they even resurrected the Italian Mafia to help them in Italy -- kept
something like 15,000 troops active in this effort! This was everywhere --
including Greece. And they were obviously doing the same thing at home.

They used these Nazis in founding the CIA and funneled many into the FBI --
also into USIA -- and Werner Von Braun to head NASA.

Keep in mind that HUAC was founded to investigate the right-wing but was turned
into a way to rid governmen of liberals and progressives -- the McCarthy Era.

Some think that JFK found out about Project Paperclip. There's an interesting old
movie on this subject -- and a remake -- called The House on Green Street.
Think there's a book on it, as well.

ANYWAY ... I was also reading that the Vatican exceeded even the CIA in it's worldwide
contacts, intelligence. And was left with the impression that the CIA had its eye
on the Vatican.

There's an excellent book called "The Secret War Against The Jews" which is a
misnomer because it covers that to some degree but about so much more -- but it also
relates the stories of the Vatican "ratholes" thru which Nazis escaped from Germany.
Also, the Nazi gold!

So -- that's why I'm saying ... he looked like the first CIA Pope to me!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

11. I find everything you wrote quite believable,

and have no problem with your take on the CIA.

But, given how they operate - and a cousin of mine became a monsignor and was whisked off to work in the Vatican because he was very photogenic, voluble, and a total suckass - I seriously doubt that John 23 had any inkling of what was going on. The Pope is little more than a figurehead, and he was set up to meet the tenor of the times, along, as you noted, with JFK and Khrushchev, but as far as actually knowing what his "staff" at the Vatican was up to, no, I doubt he had any knowledge.

And, when he was no longer of any use to them, he was dead.

Just like that accidental Pope, John Paul I.

The Vatican powers that be realized very quickly that they had a loose cannon in their palace when John Paul I refused to be crowned, opting instead for the simple pallium of an archbishop. That sealed his doom, and he lasted thirty-three days.

Then they installed the guy who made the current Nazi look like an amateur, and everyone was happy .............

[defendandprotect]

13. Wait . . . I'm talking about John Paul II . . and I think we got a little

confused with Pope John Paul XXIII -- he, we agree, is the good guy!

[defendandprotect]

14. And, answering the other parts of your post here .....

No . . . this Allen Dulles nephew thing came long after the death of
Pope John XXIII -- which many suggest many have been "a little ahead of its time"????

Probably somewhere in the 1990's . . .

Pope John XXIII was very active, not a figurehead.
Vatican II did so many things I don't know where to begin . . . but he told
Catholics to use their own personal conscience to decide for themselves whether
or not to use birth control.
He was confirming everyone's right to personal conscience even in church issues.
And he was kicking Papal "infallibility" in the ass --
Also, this was about ARTIFICIAL birth control . . . because they could use rhythm
any time they wanted to . . . also known as Catholic Roulette!!

The next Pope who succeeded him also seemed set to overturn the Vatican's teachings
on birth control being a "no, no" -- he too died . . . "a little ahead of his time" - !!!
Also a suspected assassination there. But he, too, was active and trying to change
the church.

Keep in mind, also, that XXIII threw Opus Dei out of the church!
And John Paul II set them back up in business -- evidently they gave the church
$1 BILLION to bail them out from the Vatican bank scandals.

I'm a little confused myself with all these numbers, but I think we agree --
especially on Vatican assassinations. There are two good books on church intrigue...
one I can't remember the name of but it covers the assassinations.
The other is about the Swiss Guard murder.


The Vatican powers that be realized very quickly that they had a loose cannon in their palace when John Paul I refused to be crowned, opting instead for the simple pallium of an archbishop. That sealed his doom, and he lasted thirty-three days.

Then they installed the guy who made the current Nazi look like an amateur, and everyone was happy .............


YES, YES . . . AGREE!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

15. When I said Popes are figureheads,

I wasn't including John 23 in that assessment - he was the exception that proved the rule.

But, in terms of knowing what's going on in the palace, in terms of intrigue and deals, no, no Pope ever has that information. He retains "plausible deniability," plus those guys in long black dresses who are doing the wheeling and dealing are not about to give up any of their power.

They own the Pope. They always have.

I'm old enough to remember when John XXIII was crowned, and how, after the austerity of Pius XII, his reign was so joyously welcomed. He meant change and modernity and the things he inaugurated just made people flock to church. He opened his arms to the world, and, of course, that meant he had to be stopped.

I despise organized religions, but I admire the Mob. At least they're upfront about what they're doing ..........................

[defendandprotect]

16. I'm totally with you . . .

I'm also very anti-organized patriarchal religions --

I also remember the wonderful surprise of having a Pope John XXIII in this world!!!

I'm a recovering Catholic -- left as soon as I could!

:)

[Tangerine LaBamba]

17. I was lucky -

fell into the hands of Jesuits when it came time for higher education. They did plenty to turn me against Mother Church - and I often wonder if that was part of their plan. But I never encountered a more wonderful group of men.

Some people say there's no such thing as a "lapsed" or "recovering" Catholic, and I think that's right. If they got you at that early age, they got into your head in the same way as walking or talking did - just normal things to do. But, we have to struggle with that brainwashing every day - and some of us are successful at it.

I wrote a book that was, in parts, intensely anti-Catholic Church, and when it was published (and, of course a copy was sent to the law school where I was teaching at the time, a prominent Catholic university - to be included in "Publications By Faculty Members" in the school's newsletter), I was politely informed that my contract would not be renewed.

Which was exactly what I expected from them, which was why I gave the mailing information to my publisher's publicity department.

Life goes on .................

[defendandprotect]

18. I continue to feel . . .

very strongly that it's a kind of child abuse to submit young children to this
brainwashing ... often before they've even reached the age of reason.

Unfortunately, I did suffer the insanity of Catholic school thru 8 grades --
but I was then able to escape the religion in large part, tho I did go to Cathedral
H/S in NYC. Instruction was basically over by then.

Jesuits were often a large relief from the staid, uptight, domineering nuns and
pastor/priests -- very cold, as well. Almost trained to be inhumane. And, indeed,
one part of Vatican II was attributed as John Paul XXIII giving the Church a humane
and compassionate face! Jesuits were occasionally some fun -- and somewhat more honest.

Also agree that you are kinda stuck with a lot of that stuff flying around your head
from time to time. Sometimes it's humorous. Never misplace anything without praying
to "Holy Sydney and Good St. Anne" ... "help me find it as fast as you can!"

I wrote a book that was, in parts, intensely anti-Catholic Church, and when it was published (and, of course a copy was sent to the law school where I was teaching at the time, a prominent Catholic university - to be included in "Publications By Faculty Members" in the school's newsletter), I was politely informed that my contract would not be renewed.

Which was exactly what I expected from them, which was why I gave the mailing information to my publisher's publicity department.

Life goes on .................


Ouch!

What's the name of the book -- am I likely to find it still around?

Did you do any interviews? Former Catholics? Nuns, priests?

Was this before or after the revelations of sexual abuse by pedophile priests?

Night . . .

[Mari333]

3. my mom thinks so...nt

[donco6]

4. Maybe a saint for the 14th Century. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

7. He likely will end up a saint, and he did live in our times. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. The way catholicism works yes, I can see that

and let me tell you there were some things I didn't agree with the Pope... such as his stance on Liberation Theology.. but overall, especially when compared to the Neanderthal in Paul's throne at the moment. yep a saint indeed.

Oh and I am not Catholic... but yes I do know how that works.

Some of the things he did that are fucking amazing... he opened and apologized for the treatment Galileo (and others) got at the hands of the church. The outlook of the Catholic church right now regarding science is down right refreshing because of him.

He also worked very hard to improve relations with other faiths.

He tried to get the progressive side of the church on.

Now his stance regarding liberation theology (and AIDS and Condoms) were down right regressive, but no man is perfect.

[SmileyRose]

19. In the moment I liked JP2

later I found out he was protecting child molesting priests

Any small respect for him I had was gone.