Maybe the Luddites had it right

[Cyrano]

(If you don’t want to look it up, Luddites were people opposed to the industrial revolution and all the mechanical devices and automation that came with it at the beginning of the 19th century.)

I’ve just finished my monthly bills and have made out checks for my home phone, cell phone, the electric company, the water company, car insurance, my credit card, medical insurance, and a few more things that I didn’t want, but needed.

Had the Luddites been successful in stopping the industrial revolution, I wouldn’t have seen any of these bills, nor even have known what they meant had they arrived in the mail.

Yeah, I know, the advancements of the past 200 years have supposedly improved everyone’s life. But at what cost? For many millennium, people lived without TVs, phones, computers, washing machines, refrigerators and even garbage disposals.

The one thing the industrial revolution did create, after about a century and a half, was a middle class. But we have seen over the past eight years how easy it was for the wealthy, powerful and greedy to destroy the middle class.

So maybe, just maybe, the Luddites were right. It’s something to consider. Especially for those whose jobs have disappeared and unemployment insurance has run out.

Life before the industrial revolution was no bed of roses. But most people knew how to survive and fend for themselves. And for those who didn’t or couldn’t – are they any better off in today’s world? Ask the homeless of New Orleans, or the unemployed in the rust belt, or the millions without health insurance.

For those wondering if I'm really serious about wanting to return to the past, the answer, on most days, is no. But then there are other days on which I think it wouldn't be such a bad idea.

What are your thoughts on this?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. My thought is that you're complaining about technology on an internet message board.

[Blue_Tires]

2. lol at that!

:spray:

[Posteritatis]

32. Odd how common that tendency is these days (nt)

[lukasahero]

64. First thoughts in my head as well

Does the word 'irony' mean anything to people any more?

[conspirator]

69. Its not necessarily a paradox.

The reason why so many people use the internet is because they feel alone and isolated because the sense of community and human contact is gone due to the sleep-work-watch-tv wage slave life.
Instead people should have free time to meet real people and make real friendships. Weekends are not enough.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

77. Paradox was not the word I was thinking of.

Hypocrisy was the word I was thinking of.

[create.peace]

84. he probably was screaming it in his backyard and no one cared

they were all online and/or playing video games. cutting back nowadays is getting phone, tv and internet on one bill.

[BlooInBloo]

95. pwned.

[defendandprotect]

3. We would be ahead of it all had there never been a system of capitalism/corporatism . .

and remember that all of those little gadgets we usee -- like the keyboard I'm typing

with right now -- have PLUGS at the end of them.

Given our energy situation -- none of this is sustainable.

And, if we continue to burn fossil fuels to sustain capitalism, our planet will perish --

and us with it.

Capitalism is suicidal --

[Cyrano]

14. "Capitalism is suicidal ..."

I believe that unregulated capitalism is suicide as the past eight years have demonstrated.

However, with a proper set of rules and regulations that are enforced, capitalism can be reined in and made to function for the common good.

As far as "corporatism" we've got to dump the concept that a corporation is a "person." When corporations commit the heinous crimes that they are responsible for over the past eight years (war-profiteering, murder, electrocuting soldiers in the shower, and so much more that we'll never know about) the people running those corporations (such as Cheney still running Halliburton from his undisclosed location) should be indicted as the criminals they are.

[defendandprotect]

30. Notice that the New Deal did bring new rules and regulations . . .after catastrophe . ..

and that they were overturned again.

Money equals power -- power to buy government and legislators --

We should at the least have CONGRESS/OBAMA MOVING TO RE-REGULATE . . . WHERE IS IT??

Agree re "personhood" -- corporations don't breathe, need housing, nor health care, nor food.

Move on to democratic socialism --

[anonymous171]

86. Socialism would have achieved all that we have now but without the human cost.

[dorkulon]

4. I want my MTV!

Sorry, but a life of poverty with flush toilets and refrigeration is just better than one without. And besides, you'd just have to pay the firewood bill, the horse-feed bill, etc.

[spanone]

5. ...and you'd be living in a teepee

[defendandprotect]

31. Surrounded by all of nature which has been destroyed . . .

Native Americans seemed happy enough in teepees!

In less than 500 years the "discoverers" have not only fatally polluted the continent -

they've near destroyed the planet and all life on it!

[Raskolnik]

67. Then why don't you live in a teepee?

If it truly is a desirable way to live when compared to modern houses with heating, air conditioning, and windows, why don't you live that way?

[Codeine]

90. A teepee with no electronics,

no medicines, no eyeglasses, or proper dental care, and endless hours of work each day just to prepare food.

Sign me up for some of that!

[Codeine]

89. Oh gawd; the Noble Savage.

Are people still buying into that pabulum?

[Raskolnik]

96. Some are still selling it, that's for sure.

Apparently, the North and South American continents were completely free of communicable diseases before Europeans arrived. Who knew?

[Ikonoklast]

91. Please explain the following statement of yours

"In less than 500 years the "discoverers" have not only fatally polluted the continent -
they've near destroyed the planet and all life on it!"

Not even remotely true.

[Wednesdays]

72. No teepee for me

Nuh-uh. I want a log cabin.

[GreenEyedLefty]

6. Technology is great.

I can live without it if necessary, but who would want to? Yuck.

The greatest labor saving invention ever has to be the washing machine. In my opinion, since I do all the laundry. :)

[BoneDaddy]

82. LOL you bring a very simple point to the table

Most people's perspectives lie in how things have served them. Technology is great if you have benefitted, bad if you have not.

Awesome.

[CJCRANE]

7. I feel like that sometimes...

Just to be "off the grid", away from screens and phones, free from technology for a while.

[create.peace]

87. you can do that at home, get an igloo 7day cooler from costco and....oh you need ice.

and a wood stove, you know how hard it is to cook over a fire? for more than a weekend? you need a wood stove (doesn't have to be a cookstove)

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. It is not the technology, but the corporatization that is the culprit here.

The invention of the railroad changed the very concept of travel and shipping. At one time there were literally hundreds of rail lines in the US alone, not to mention the world. Every town of any size at all had a rail connection, and thus a connection to the larger world - and this in a time when the majority population was born, lived and died within a hundred mile radius.

What killed this? The monopolizations of the rail lines by a very few corporations. It was the corporations that changed our world from a production world to a consumer world - it is possible to be a production-based subsistence society, but that just is not as profitable for the corporations.

All the ills you mention are of a consumer based society, not of a technical society. The Luddite world might have no TVs and cell phones, but it would also have no heart transplants or internet information networks.

[SidDithers]

9. 200 years ago, the average life expectancy was ~ 40 years...nt

Sid

[dgibby]

12. And it will be again if we don't get a decent health care package.

[Blue_Tires]

99. +1

[imdjh]

17. 200 years ago people often lived into their 80's.

As with any average, the notion that your average person died at forty is quite different from it being a statistical average. Infant (dying before age 12) mortality was very high which brought the average down. Men who survived to age 30 and women who survived past child bearing age were likely to live into what we would consider old age.

[SidDithers]

22. The maximum has stayed about the same...

but the mean has increased dramatically from 1800 'til now.

Sid

[muriel_volestrangler]

68. And think what a shitty life it was, with 2 or 3 of your children dying as infants

on average. Saying "it wasn't a big deal, a lot of people died as kids" doesn't make the 18th century any more enticing.

[create.peace]

88. if you made it through your childbearing years, for women, and your

sodbreaking for men....

[defendandprotect]

33. Think about it . .. what happened to the Bibical lifespan . . . 200 years?

We've done nothing but made ourselves sick, diseased and depressed--

[SidDithers]

37. Biblical lifespan?...

Are you seriously using the Bible as a reference book?

Sid

[defendandprotect]

43. OK . . . the Bible . . .

is 1000% lies . . . and there weren't even people at the time!!

[Raskolnik]

44. Can you point to *any* archeological evidence of such lifespans? n/t

[defendandprotect]

46. Have they dug up all the bodies yet?

[Raskolnik]

52. Well, in that case, I'll go ahead and claim that human beings used have six legs

and could shoot fire and Fresca out of their left and right nipples, respectively. After all, they haven't "dug up all the bodies yet," so who's so say any different?

[Raskolnik]

42. I'm sorry, but that is a load of hooey.

First, there is no evidence that people were ever possessed of "Biblical lifespans." None.

Second, we have taken modern medicine for granted for so long now that we can't really understand what a miracle it is. For the vast majority of history, if you got an infected tooth, or a kidney stone, or broke your femur, or had pnemonia, you were probably going to die, or your life was going to be pretty miserable for a long, long time.

You can debate about our current delivery system for modern medicine, but if you really think that modern medicine has not improved the quality, and quantity, of life fur us to an astounding degree, I can only marvel at your ignorance of history.

[defendandprotect]

45. There is no evidence for anything in the Bible . . .true!

Additionally, the native American had penicillin when the "discoverers" arrived --

they were a healthy population -- while the Western European was disease-ridden.

American ranks 37th in health care; that's below Cuba!

[Raskolnik]

51. That's demonstrably false.

First, the Bible contains many historical accounts of people, places, and events that are supported by the archeological record. There just isn't any support for the silly claim that people were once possessed of "Biblical lifespans" in excess of 200 years.

Second, you seem to be under the impression that there was one homogeneous "Native American" culture/society. You are mistaken. Some of the Central and South American societies in particular had more than their fair share of communicable diseases, and their populations waxed and waned accordingly. North and South America were not free from disease before European explorers came, but European infectious diseases were just a hell of a lot more bad-ass than any of the new world varieties, and had disastrous effect because of that.

Third, the problem with U.S. health care is its *delivery*, not its foundations. If you can name me a health care system anywhere in the world that is based upon pre-industrial revolution standards and delivers comparable results to those based upon modern medicine, I would be interested to learn of it.

[defendandprotect]

92. They did have "communicable diseases" AFTER the arrival of the white man . .!!!

Notice the posts above where I discuss the Bible . . .

it is and it ain't . . .

the only truth about it is its VIOLENCE --

it was written to cement patriarchy and to create a warrior god.

And, of course, we're all healthier now!!!

3 out of 4 Americans with cancer!! Look around your town -- banks and medical industry!



The "foundation" of American health care is private 'FOR PROFIT' corporations --

Insurance companies and corporations have no business in healthcare --

And every other industrial nation supplies universal health care --

Capitalism, itself, is a corrupt system --

and un-regulated capitalism is merely organized crime.

[Raskolnik]

94. You're not terribly familiar with history, are you? n/t

[defendandprotect]

102. Certainly not your history . ..

[Raskolnik]

104. Ha! From someone who believes that there were no communicable diseases

on the North or South American continents before the arrival of Europeans, that's pretty rich.

[Occam Bandage]

58. The Bible claims Noah lived 950 years. Do you actually believe that? nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

71. Thank you for pointing out how Luddism and religious fundamentalist are closely related. -nt

[DrCory]

76. Surely You Jest? N/T

[DireStrike]

10. I don't think the industrial revolution created a powerful middle class.

When I think industrial revolution, I think dickensian England and the American gilded age. Industrialization whetted the appetites of wealthy producers for cheap labor, and magnified greed to a never before seen scale. The development (and subsequent destruction) of the middle class came from other sources.

[Locrian]

11. good to be kink

I would say that for the most part in the US we live like kings. Considering the amount of energy that is used in our daily existence, we use more than any period in history = free (relatively) energy.

The question will be eventually is does everyone ELSE get to live like kings? Or "who does and doesnt"? And who gets to live like peasants or not at all?

It's likely not to be a "choice" in the future.

[Cyrano]

25. You've hit on a very profound issue here, Locrian.

Who gets to live like kings and who gets to live like peasants, or not at all?

Looking at the genicide in Dafur, the Sudan, and so much more of Africa, we already know that there are those whose existence is of no value to the local warlords, or most other people on the planet who don't even know what's taking place there.

We already know that the impoverished people who once lived, or are still living in New Orleans, are getting to live like peasants, if at all.

How long will it be before the American rust belt starts to look like the backwoods of the film "Deliverance?"

How long will it be before the lack of universal health care really, really turns us into a third-world country?

After 30 years of hell (Reagan through Bush Jr.) I wonder if even Obama can turn this around.

The most grotesque thing of all is that the Republicans are doing everything they possibly can to keep us in the dank, infected sewer they dug for us.

[Raskolnik]

55. But do you understand that compared to 99.9% of the human population who has ever lived,

you live a life of unimaginable ease and comfort?

[imdjh]

13. The Industrial Revolution didn't create the middle class. It already existed.

[defendandprotect]

34. The Industrial Revolution was the final onslaught on nature . . .

[NeedleCast]

40. and yet here you are, using modern technical marvels

Just like everyone else.

[defendandprotect]

41. We have but slim ribbons of trees left . . .

and Global Warming -- destruction of all species, including human --

and you're telling me that our "modern technical marvels" don't have

a plug at the end of them?

[NeedleCast]

47. Right

Take a look at the globe around the 60 degrees.

More than a couple of trees left standing. I think we'll be okay.

I just point out the irony of your prophetic proclamations of doom and gloom...here on the internet. Why do you be the example and lead the masses back to the caves?

[defendandprotect]

93. Obviously, you haven't read the news this week . . . !!!

No -- our trees are dying -- from pollution -- and take a look at the reports

from the Amazon!

Yes, and our Nobel scientists are bringers of "gloom and doom" . . . presumably

so are the economic reports -- must be fiction that we've bailed out banks and

capitalists!!

$12 TRILLION last I heard --

Go back to your cave -- nothing to worry about !!!

[Occam Bandage]

57. So unplug your computer. Stop contributing to the problem.

[Dogtown]

15. Without technology you'd probably

not be alive.

Child mortality rates in the 19th century are horrifying. Measles. Polio. Scarlet fever. Tuberculosis.

Before then, medical care was even worse. Leeching and exorcism.

My fundy neighbors long for the good old days. That's because they were all home-schooled and have no real conception of what life was like. Put their over-fed, pampered asses behind a plow for 12 hours and they'd be whining for their EvangelicalTV and sleep-apnea machines.

Fuck the good-old-days.

[HughBeaumont]

18. You'd enjoy this book, as did I.

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Old-Days-They-Were-Terrible/dp/0394709411/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244478136&sr=8-1

This book explains why the "good old days" were only good for a priviledged few and why they were unrelentingly hard for most. Sobering, actually. Check it out.

[Dogtown]

23. Thanks

There's a place for nostalgia.

Day-dreams.

[defendandprotect]

35. Native Americans had penicillin when the "discoverers" arrived . . .

and were generally FREE of the many diseases known to Western Europeans!

[Occam Bandage]

56. Not really, no.

That's a completely unattested myth. (And no, "they smothered dirt on wounds" is not the same)

You are correct that they were virtually free of infectious/communicable disease. That is because they had not domesticated any livestock, and had only a few nutritionally poor domesticated plants. Therefore, they couldn't support large enough and dense enough populations for diseases to exist. One can quibble about the relative merits of stone-age society, but it's inarguable that stone-age society never survives contact with technology.

[H2O Man]

63. It's also

not true "that they virtually free of infectious/communicable disease." Or, for that matter, that they "had only a few nutritionally poor domesticated plants."

[Occam Bandage]

65. I should have been more precise, yes.

There were stable agricultural societies with all the benefits and drawbacks, especially in Mexico and South America.

[Codeine]

79. Citation needed. nt

[Dogtown]

98. Native Americans had willow bark tea

essentially, aspirin. In itself, that's a fever-reducer and analgesic.

Penicillin, I doubt that very much.

The reason NA were free of European diseases was lack of exposure. That's also why they died when Europeans introduced those diseases, they had not developed the antibodies to cope with the diseases.

Populations have skyrocketed since the 1900s due to a better understanding of medicine, new pharmaceuticals, improved access to fresh food and the ability to keep that food from rotting. That is to say, because of the Industrial Age.

Luddites were conservatives, fearful of anything new. They were not visionaries.

[LuvNewcastle]

16. I would certainly have to move

if there were no modern conveniences. There's no way I could live in south MS without air conditioning. I don't know how my grandparents stood it, although they claimed that the winters were harsher and summers weren't as hot back then. It couldn't have been that much different.

[enlightenment]

19. I often call myself a neo-Luddite in comparison to the

plugged-in culture of today. I don't reject technology (obviously!) but I value it for its usefulness, not for its availability. I do think (perhaps because I'm an historian) that it is also useful to have a basic knowledge of the things that we take for granted - how to find/collect potable water; how to grow food, preserve it (canning/drying/etc) and prepare it without electricity; how to spin and weave (I do that for fun, but yes could make a garment from a sheep's back to my own). Basic carpentry, basic first aid, how to make fire, some knowledge of plant-based remedies, stuff like that.

Some of it I never use; I haven't started a fire with a bow drill since I learned how to make the device 15 years ago. Some of it I do regularly.

I learn these things not so much for comfort - I really don't have a survivalist mentality - but because it interests me and challenges me and when the modern world gets too impersonal, it's a nice way to 'feel' the past. I don't want to live in the past; rotten food is still rotten no matter how heavily you spice it and I'd rather not die from a tooth abscess . . . or even live in utter filth and squalor. But there are plenty of good things to draw from the past that I can do without giving up the comfort of flush toilets and refrigeration!

[Oregone]

20. If happiness is a measure of quality of life, it is a great question

Do you think our society is happier and more mentally healthy than generations past? If not, that suggests that perhaps the advancements in technology do not neccessarily correlate with advancements in the quality of life for mankind. Yes, we have comfortable couches and nice TVs, but are we too angry/violent/etc to give a damn? Or maybe, man always sucks (and always will) and it really doesn't matter, so who gives a damn?

[Buzz Clik]

21. Have you checked out the Luddites web site? www.luddite.net

It's a bit sparse, but they do have this comment posted:

"BTW I like your email - luddite.net. How do you check it? Do you have a team of amish scribes copy it down from the video book thingy with the flashy lights?"

[SidDithers]

38. Luddite website...

that is so deliciously oxymoronic :applause:

Sid

[Buzz Clik]

39. It's tastefully understated.

[Iris]

24. as a woman, I don't consider washing machines and refrigerators to be luxuries

Just food prep and clothing care alone would take so much time, there'd be little left and that would be spent on other survival chores.

I'd much rather work and pay for the extras and have some free time at the end of my day.

[Cyrano]

26. Please reread the last two paragraphs of my OP

I don't want to live without washing machines or refrigerators.

That Original Post is just pointing out how all of today's conveniences come at an unacceptable price. And, unfortunately, that price is far more than money. It's our freedoms.

When local governments want to let the electric company or the phone company raise their rates, which way do they always vote? Can you tell me the last time your electric or phone bill went down?

When developers want to build a new housing or condo complex in your area, does the local zoning board say anything but "YES?" Of course not. Believe it or not, they're on the payroll -- whether that payroll is cash or favors.

Corruption among public officials, local, state and federal, is the norm. This is not to say that every politician is corrupt. There are still valiant people here and there who always fight against the private interests.

Unfortunately, they are always "challenged" during the next election by someone who will "play the game," and is backed by those whose interests are being challenged. And it goes without question that they can well afford to put their bought and paid for candidate into office.

But every time you use your washing machine, please understand that a portion of what you're paying ends up in the pocket of some politician.

[Iris]

78. I see what you're saying.

:)

[AngryAmish]

27. Nasty, british and short

[Cyrano]

28. Could you please be more specific?

Your post is brief, but the point you're making is a mystery.

[Raskolnik]

53. True, there used to be more Britons in the world.

That made me laugh.

[Occam Bandage]

62. I had a geology professor like that once. nt

[chaska]

29. I have something to say about this...

I've done a lot of backpacking in my day. Quite a few hikes of 2 to 3 months duration. I can tell you, you can live without modernity, and happily. The happiest I've ever been in my life has been while living in the woods on these trips.

And another thing:

It will become increasingly obvious that we can't continue like this. We are at double our *sustainable* population. Once the oil runs out, the die off begins. If a massive epidemic doesn't kill us off first. We will likely end up at a sustainable level of technology that has much in common with the early decades of the twentieth-century.


One more thing:

Derrick Jensen is a must read for environmentalists and intelligent people in general. His 'Endgame' is a life changer.

[defendandprotect]

36. "End Game" . . . Derrick Jensen, eh . . . I'll look for it!

[chaska]

59. Read Vol. 2 first. It's the best.

[Raskolnik]

48. What a silly post.

Your "for many millenium..." argument is just ridiculous, because you fail to acknowledge the fact that for many millenium, life was nasty, brutish, and short for the vast majority of human beings.

The next time you want a drink of clean, disease free water, I suggest you go over to the tap and recognize what a miracle of the modern age we take for granted every damn day. The next time you feel like its such a burden to pay your cell phone bill, I suggest you reflect on the fact that you can communicate with nearly anyone in the world at any time, with a device that fits in your pocket.

[fishwax]

49. The Luddites weren't opposed to technology and machinery, per se

Rather, they objected to the imposition of new price structures which starved workers while fattening the owners. They didn't just go around indiscriminately destroying machines.

[LeftishBrit]

74. Very good point!

'Luddite' as used nowadays is a somewhat misleading term.

[Cleita]

50. Actually, sometimes I just like to go out in the woods for a few days for

that very reason. I still have to pack in food, water and fuel because there is very little ability to live off the land anymore without disturbing what's left of a frail ecosystem. Most of us who do that have adopted the spelunkers philosophy of leaving where we have been undisturbed.

[Occam Bandage]

54. Throw away your computer and your cell phone, cancel your health insurance and all prescriptions,

put your refrigerator, television, and washing machine out on the curb with a "free" sign, and stop paying your electric bill. Throw out any food that has been canned, packaged, or refrigerated, and any out-of-season or out-of-area fruits and vegetables. Hell, throw away anything made from plastic. You don't need any of that to survive or work. It's all luxury. So get rid of it. Come on, do it.

Do it now.

Don't read this post, do it now. Turn off the computer now and do it already.

And see how long it takes you to come crawling back to the modern world. We know this is all rhetorical, and that you recognize you wouldn't want to live like that, and so you won't incur the cost of losing all the things you're complaining about.

But the funny part is, even if you do all the drastic things I've asked, you'll still have not returned to the pre-industrial world, for you'll still have a car, and still have a modern job, and still be able to visit the modern world whenever you like.

There's a reason people in undeveloped countries voluntarily work in sweatshops. Even unregulated, unprotected, proto-industrial life is preferable to the alternative.

[Godhumor]

60. Well, I'd be dead by now if the Luddites had won

As would pretty much everyone who has had to depend on modern emergency health care at some point in their life.

So no, disagree.

[sheila f]

61. I wouldn't go to extremes, but I sure am disappointed that

cell phones were invented. Too many idiots, too little silence. Also, subwoofers.

[LiveLiberally]

66. Thoughtful post but an unnecessary slam on the Luddites...

For those who are interested, a brief history lesson....

The Luddites did not oppose "the industrial revolution and all the mechanical devices and automation." They were cloth "croppers" who for centuries had received very high wages (for artisanal workers) because they were highly skilled at creating the nap in cloth (primarily woolens, hence their importance in the British textile industry). In the early 19th century, a cropping machine was invented. As with many automated devices, it did not crop the cloth better than a skilled cropper, but it did it much faster and cheaper. Virtually overnight 10s of thousands of croppers in England were thrown out of work in an era where trade unions were banned. Croppers couldn't meet collectively with their employers or even assemble in a pub to discuss their common interests without being charged with "illegal combination." Laissez-faire capitalism reigned supreme. So they went underground, attacking textile mills, but in most cases destroying ONLY the cropping machines, leaving other devices, including the mechanical looms, unharmed. (Fires started by sympathizers and conflicts between Luddites and British troops did destroy several mills.) What they were protesting was not the industrial revolution or automation, but an economic system that ignored the human consequences of mechanization. That provided no means of education or re-training, that regarded subsistence labor (i.e. poverty) as a pillar of the "Iron Law of Wages," and that provided no safety net beyond parish handouts, the workhouse, and the debtor's prison.

I wish I could say we had progressed beyond this Luddite reality but the lives of millions of workers in developing nations today prove otherwise. The 1999 Battle in Seattle against the WTO can be seen as a modern-day Luddite protest. The fact that it was fought overwhelmingly by middle-class activists speaks to the organizational obstacles still facing workers. The economic fallacy that you can't have industrial development without reducing human labor into a mere commodity dies very, very hard.

postscript: The leaders of the Luddites were arrested and hanged.

Well maybe not so brief. What can I say -- I teach this stuff :)

[Ramocles]

70. A compromise might be best

To use technology and modern conveniences where they make sense and not use them where they don't.

[LeftishBrit]

73. Well, for one thing there wouldn't be a DU without technology!

It's really hard to say overall; there were far fewer people then, and most didn't live as long. If you are elderly, in less than perfect health, or need to communicate with lots of people in lots of places, then you really need technology. In those days the first two categories were usually incompatible with life anyway, and the last was not relevant in a world with smaller and less dispersed population. Hard to say how much of the increased size and dispersal of the population is a *result* versus *cause* of technological advances: both, no doubt.

The *immediate* effects of the Industrial Revolution were certainly pretty horrible for lots of people; the long-term effects were probably beneficial on balance.

[nichomachus]

75. The Luddites were really opposed to making the bosses richer and the workers poorer

Not opposed to technology per se. It wasn't some blind opposition to new-fangled technology.

[Codeine]

80. Well-off Americans fetishizing primitivism are fucking absurd.

We invented all this shit because it made our lives demonstrably better at every step. We are warm, well-fed, healthy, clean, and comfortable in ways that we can barely understand. If I took your technology away for a month you'd be begging on your knees for it back, guaranteed.

[NeedleCast]

85. +1

[GreenArrow]

97. "She's only a bird in a gilded cage"

"She's only a bird in a gilded cage,
A beautiful sight to see.
You may think she's happy and free from care,
She's not, though she seems to be.
'Tis sad when you think of her wasted life
For youth cannot mate with age;
And her beauty was sold
for an old man's gold,
She's a bird in a gilded cage."

[BoneDaddy]

81. What's the point about arguing a what if?

Technology and the industrial revolution, like most things in life, is neither good nor bad, it contains the seeds of both. It all depends on how it is used.

[Mike 03]

83. I love your post. All I know is that I am desperately trying to simplifly my life. NT

[MrScorpio]

100. You and POST SHREDDED WHEAT should jump in the same boat

They put the "No" in innovation, of course!

[Cyrano]

101. Ummm, let me ask you this. Huh?

[Codeine]

103. He's referring to this;

a rather clever ad campaign from Post for Shredded Wheat cereal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHDQGNN6rwQ