"The ladies Dormady have heard from the right. From our side not so much."

[hfojvt]

today's Daily Howler http://www.dailyhowler.com/index.shtml

"HOW WE STAY BAREFOOT AND PREGNANT: How does your nation discuss major issues?

Very, very poorly. Consider two more reports about health cares costs, found in today’s Post and Times.

...

In fairness, it’s always possible that “the politicians” may make health care worse. But we would suggest that this discussion illustrates a basic problem found in all our major discussions. Voters rarely know Basic Facts—in part, because no one ever states them. But they do know lots of buzz and spin. Interested parties have been pushing these bits of buzz and spin for all the years of their lives.

Do the ladies Dormady know that “the politicians” in many countries have created better health care systems? We’ll guess that they do not. They can’t read about this in newspapers. On CNN, they won’t hear it discussed.

Nor have they heard any liberal journal or interest group telling them this in a disciplined way—or much of anything else, for that matter. It has now been sixteen years since Bill Clinton tried to tackle this problem. Go ahead! Name the liberal journal which has made a major point of putting that Big Giant Heath-Care Fact in front of American voters. For ourselves, we can’t really name one. But what liberal journal has actively framed any discussion in the past sixteen years?"


Should we be pounding away at that basic fact? - Other countries have lower costs and better results.

The more difficult questions are "How do they do it?" and "Why can't we?" or "Why don't we?"

I would like to get more details on the facts. Do our "health costs" include plastic surgery and chiropractors? Do they include nursing homes? Do other countries have similar expenditures or systems? I keep seeing ads on the TV showing a mother talking with her son about getting braces. Seems more like a want than a need, but it is part of our health care costs. What about all the ads for "male enhancement"? Health care cost, or not?

[xchrom]

1. indeed -- we don't discuss the fact that other countries have a process

for delivering better, lower cost health care than we do.

we don't have to reinvent the wheel.

and i'm guessing that supplemental private insurance could be made available for those who want braces or male enhancement or bigger boobs.

the cases made against single payer or socialized medicine are almost universally strawmen and red herrings and down right lies.

but until facts are laid before us -- that's all we ever get to discuss.

[Vincardog]

2. The fact is we spend more and have poorer results than any other country. It does not matter

what you include in the count.

[hfojvt]

3. the count could be skewed that way though

that is "we spend much more" is a fact that includes a lot of "non-health health expenses". Expenses that other countries don't have because a) such things are not covered in their system and b) they don't have such a shallow ad-driven consumer society and c) they don't have our income inequality.

If I am gonna wave a statistic and ask people to salute, then I like to be sure of its validity.

[Vincardog]

4. If you have a problem with the facts do all the research you want.